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Open Source Operating Systems Upgrades Linux

Linux Mint 18 'Sarah' Released, Supports Generic GTK X-Apps (linuxmint.com) 98

Slashdot reader Type44Q writes: The Linux Mint team announced the immediate availability of their latest release, Mint 18 "Sarah," in Cinnamon and MATE flavors. These follow on the heels of their respective beta versions, which have been out for nearly a month.
"Linux Mint 18 is a long-term support release which will be supported until 2021," the team announces on MATE's "new features" page, adding they've improved their update manager, included support for the Debian syntax of "apt", and are working on the "X-Apps" project to "produce generic applications for traditional GTK desktop environments...to replace applications which no longer integrate properly outside of a particular environment."
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Linux Mint 18 'Sarah' Released, Supports Generic GTK X-Apps

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  • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 02, 2016 @06:37PM (#52435707)

    "produce generic applications for traditional GTK desktop environments...to replace applications which no longer integrate properly outside of a particular environment."

    Is that just a polite, politically-correct way of saying that they're fixing up all of the shit that the GNOME 3 and systemd crowd have broken over the past several years?

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      Exacly.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      "produce generic applications for traditional GTK desktop environments...to replace applications which no longer integrate properly outside of a particular environment."

      Is that just a polite, politically-correct way of saying that they're fixing up all of the shit that the GNOME 3 and systemd crowd have broken over the past several years?

      I came here to post the same thing. By "particular environment" they have to mean systemd. To depend so heavily on a particular "init system" when standards exist for a reason was a big mistake. Even if systemd were perfect the decision to be totally dependent on it is a mistake. Systemd is not perfect. The decreasing ability to avoid it is a problem. I've used Gentoo for a long time and happened to dodge this one - I just stayed with openrc. That doesn't make it less of a problem for others.

      • Nope, not at all.
        This is for the text editor and pdf viewer etc.

      • by Blaskowicz ( 634489 ) on Saturday July 02, 2016 @10:57PM (#52436659)

        Here is the rationale for the GTK3 X-apps and a couple finished example of them.

        http://segfault.linuxmint.com/2016/02/the-first-two-x-apps-are-ready/ [linuxmint.com]

        It's about how Gnome 3 has crapified gedit, evince etc. and uses non-standard GUI elements - Gnome-specific parts of GTK3 - in client-side decorated windows.
        Another reason is to remove a few dependencies, and in particular remove some of the distro-level hackery where Mint had gedit locked at version 2.30, so you couldn't install gedit 3. More generally it's part of removing warts that have historically made Cinnamon difficult to run on other distros, or some Gnome 3 applications on Cinnamon or Mint.

        Earlier blog post on it
        http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2985 [linuxmint.com]

        • Good, I finally stopped using adobe acrobat reader, since they don't even support linux anymore. I installed the recommended evince, and upon starting it up my first thought was 'wtf is this ?' It has a non-standard title bar that looks completely out of place with anything that isn't gnome. Honestly it looks so out of place I thought it must have been from the times when developers simply didn't know any better. I use XFCE.

          I even looked for an option to make evince look normal, but alas this 'include the t

          • If you're nostalgic for the good old days, use the programs from Mate.

            Atril is their evince fork and should work seamlessly under xfce.

      • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Sunday July 03, 2016 @04:27AM (#52437477)

        Noting depends on systemd. Nothing depends on a specific init system.

        Software may depend on specific APIs that expose certain kernel features like cgroups, so if you're not happy with having systemd do that then either write your own interface or pay someone to write it for you.

        • by Kjella ( 173770 )

          Noting depends on systemd. Nothing depends on a specific init system. Software may depend on specific APIs that expose certain kernel features like cgroups, so if you're not happy with having systemd do that then either write your own interface or pay someone to write it for you.

          That's roughly as useful as saying software doesn't require Windows or Mac or Linux, just their APIs. Sure you have things like WINE but it only exists through tons of effort and still only works half the time.

          • It doesn't exist through any effort of mine. But hey you're comparing a volunteer effort of great programmers in implementing an undocumented API vs the might and resources of Microsoft, to a volunteer effort of great programmers implementing an open and well documented API vs what according to slashdot is currently the worst programmer on the planet.

            You may poo-poo it as being not useful but it is actually the very nature of software development. At a lower system level most software exists as APIs to prov

      • Be sure to set -systemd in your make.conf, otherwise it will slowly creep into your system.

        Also, look into Funtoo. It's a fork of Gentoo by the original Gentoo creator. He's made it apparent systemd will remain a second class citizen.

      • Seriously I and I am sure many others are sick of the whining here.

        I am not a troll but I am asking a serious question. What can Init do that SystemD can't? Explain?

        Servers and my Vm's use SystemD just fine without issue. I watched youtube videos and SystemD can do everything init can and can write logs in txt, is editable, and from the looks of it an improvement over init as it is event driven without long scripts.

    • by fnj ( 64210 )

      Is that just a polite, politically-correct way of saying that they're fixing up all of the shit that the GNOME 3 and systemd crowd have broken over the past several years?

      But Mint is a slave to all the blockheaded systemd shit, just like almost everybody else. I do think Mate on FreeBSD has a lot of potential.

    • Why are you lumping systemd in with this, does the X-Apps initiative have anything to do with underlying daemons? Does systemd introduce incompatibilities at the desktop app level? If so it seems like things aren't properly abstracted...

      • I believe one of the underlying reasons for adopting systemd in non-Red Hat distros was that Gnome3 added hooks to systemd for session management. (and followed by KDE, iirc)

    • No, just Gnome 3. Desktop users aren't complaining about systemd, the init system change has little effect on desktop users.

  • systemd (Score:4, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday July 02, 2016 @06:41PM (#52435735)

    Since it was missing from the summary, the Mint 18 release is based on Ubuntu 16.04 and now includes systemd.

  • by drew_92123 ( 213321 ) on Saturday July 02, 2016 @06:46PM (#52435769)

    Just don't install it on an array of Conner HDDs... ;-)

  • by future assassin ( 639396 ) on Saturday July 02, 2016 @06:56PM (#52435811) Homepage

    only issues I have is that for some reason once in a blue moon (every 3-4 months) some thing happens with either the system or FGLRX drivers and get a blank cursor on loading screen and x wont start. Have to totally purge remove FGLRX resintall xorg for it to work again. Install FGLRX once one and I'm good to got for an other 4 months.

    Also should add this isn't Mint per say but running AMD A10 5800 the new AMD and Rageon drivers are MUCH smoother when playing Xonotic. Basically just as good or better than on my works Win7 machine with better graphics and CPU.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      future assassin, on a dual boot machine make sure to shut down properly or else the DIRTY POWEROFF remains set, and the rendering will not initialize and only give you that accursed blank screen with cursor.

    • This has been a thing with X ever since the 2.6 kernel was released
    • I gave up on getting it to work properly with AMD GPU's years ago...
      • I don't have an issues with the install or the APU or GPU working, just the issues I described in my og post. Also like stated with AMD drivers from about 3 months ago gaming has improved quite a bit with both FGLRX and Radeon drivers.

    • FYI the FGLRX is deprecated in Ubuntu 16.04 (or any distro of the same Xorg newness) and your A10 5800 will not be supported by the newer driver, so 'radeon' driver it is.

  • by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ) on Saturday July 02, 2016 @07:05PM (#52435857)

    I looked at this the other day and it's nice, but realized that I can get basically the same thing, even the Mate desktop layout - if I wanted (via Mate Tweak: Redmond, Enable Advanced Menu) - simply by using the official Ubuntu 16.04 "ubuntu-mate" flavor. Sure Mint offers some simplifications, but then I have to track two distros in my head, Ubuntu and Mint, and one is simpler than both -- especially if I want to put a server edition on one system and a desktop edition on another, and/or use Ubuntu at work... (we use RHEL too but I'm not a fan)

    While I'm still not enamored with systemd - not the idea, just the implementation, its seemingly black-hole like scope expansion, the dick developers, etc (and I guess some of that could be said of several Canonical decisions too) -- I... am... over... it... and just want a stable system on which I can get some work done. (I feel this way about trying to choose a distro too.) And want something I can use on both newer and older hardware - which excludes using Unity (barf) and GNOME 3.

    Just my $0.02.

    • by Anonymous Coward
      Use Slackware.
    • by Anonymous Coward

      It took a while but Ubuntumate.org is filling that gaping hole caused by the Gnome 3 fuckup. A useable desktop that sides with Canonical in the update imbroglio, namely that Mint is too conservative updating kernels while Ubuntu stays almost in lockstep.

      Big kudos to the ubuntumate guys, worth a few bucks donation imo.

      Captcha: quagmire

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward

      That's what I do too. My problem with Mint is that they have no "mini.iso" network install disc. I use that a lot for diskless installs (all of my machines are diskless) from local cache which are automatically at the latest package version. The lack of that means Mint is no good to me and they seem to have no interest in supporting it.

      Like you said though, it doesn't matter. You can just use Ubuntu then install the flavor you want (MATE, Xubuntu, etc). There is even a Cinnamon flavor but frankly it sucks a

    • Re:Nice, but... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by AthanasiusKircher ( 1333179 ) on Saturday July 02, 2016 @10:14PM (#52436489)

      and just want a stable system on which I can get some work done. (I feel this way about trying to choose a distro too.) And want something I can use on both newer and older hardware

      Those are precisely the reasons that I switched my primary home desktop OS from Ubuntu to Mint several years ago. (This was actually before the Unity debacle, but I could have seen something like that coming given poor choices Ubuntu had made before.)

      I'm NOT trying to convert you. We all have our particular stories and needs. But Ubuntu for many years never actually satisfied the "just works" criterion I care most about -- they seemed too interested in showing off Wobbly Windows and other BS, while major functionality would often break on every upgrade. Particularly things like sound, video, codecs, etc. always seemed a pain to actually get working, and they were often unstable. (And I'm not kidding that EVERY new version broke things on my systems, and each time the breakage was different.)

      I just got tired of it. I abandoned Ubuntu and went back to Debian for a while, though that had its own issues. Distro-hopped for a while, but nothing ever seemed stable and user-friendly. Then I tried Mint, and every computer I've installed it on in the past 6 years or so has "just worked." (And as for older hardware, the XFCE edition has worked great for me.)

      I'm sure Ubuntu is probably more stable now, but I've seen no compelling reason to go back. Mint's interface is relatively stable and works. It's funny, but that's really all I give a crap about these days in an OS -- don't change stuff every year for no apparent reason, and make it work on standard hardware. And if possible give me a choice that runs as light as possible on system resources. I can get used to just about anything if it satisfies that criteria, but unfortunately most OSes don't.

      • by Anonymous Coward

        Therein lies the paradox of Mint users...they think they've actually abandoned Ubuntu.

        It's an unofficial flavour, mind you, one that's made all sorts of progress in its own right that they deserve plenty of credit for...it's a great distribution. It's also Ubuntu under the hood. In fact since there's often a lag between when Mint incorporates security patches from mainstream Ubuntu, you're potentially putting yourself at greater risk of getting tagged by 0-day security vulnerabilities. If you're willing to

        • Therein lies the paradox of Mint users...they think they've actually abandoned Ubuntu.

          It's an unofficial flavour, mind you, one that's made all sorts of progress in its own right that they deserve plenty of credit for...it's a great distribution. It's also Ubuntu under the hood.[...]

          Did you know Debian is "under the hood" when it comes to Ubuntu? Yeah, Ubuntu is based on Debian. So all that you wrote also applies to Ubuntu as well. Just sayin'.

    • Sure Ubuntu offers some simplifications, but then I have to track two distros in my head, Ubuntu and debian, and one is simpler than both

      Thus I use upstream debian and install the mate-desktop package. :)

  • "Long-term support" only means 5 years now?! Even Windows XP had 12 year life. I guess it's on par with Windows 10, so it's ok, eh?

  • OK, I went to the page that explained about all the stuff that has changed. Some apps have been substituted for different ones. Different artwork. A new daemon or two. New themes. And some different ways of doing stuff.

    But where is the list of things that I couldn't do on older releases, that I will be able to do now? What new opportunities does this release open up to me, as a user? What extra functions does this release have?

    In short, where is the compelling case to spend time and effort to install th

    • by Anonymous Coward

      +1
      I am applying the same criteria for upgrades that I applied to a Windows 7 -> Windows 10 upgrade, ultimately deciding the negatives of Windows 10 outweigh the positives.

      I am using Mint 17.2 and so far, I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade.. All of the stuff that I need right now works..

      • by Anonymous Coward

        +1
        I am applying the same criteria for upgrades that I applied to a Windows 7 -> Windows 10 upgrade, ultimately deciding the negatives of Windows 10 outweigh the positives.

        I am using Mint 17.2 and so far, I don't see a compelling reason to upgrade.. All of the stuff that I need right now works..

        And, because this is Linux and not Windows, that's perfectly fine. Upgrade to 18 if and when you want to. No officially sanctioned malware from the Mint developers will infect your Mint 17.2 box and force upgrade your computer to Mint 18 when you step away for coffee. No Mint 17 updates will retroactively break things to encourage you to upgrade. Do what you want with your PC and your OS, because they are yours. That's the point of using Linux. What a revolutionary idea!

      • By all means feel free to wait for 18.1, 18.2, 19 etc.

    • Actually it's a design goal that not much changes. Which is why there may be something like 300 million users of Windows XP still.
      You could upgrade from Ubuntu 7.04 to this and not get lost.
      The rest is just newer versions of software or sysadmin crap (e.g. ubuntu nappy containers)

    • by SeaFox ( 739806 )

      But where is the list of things that I couldn't do on older releases, that I will be able to do now? What new opportunities does this release open up to me, as a user? What extra functions does this release have?

      I have a usb bluetooth adapter I tried using once and it just plain doesn't work in 17.3. I got it to pair with my wireless headphones once, but it didn't actually let me play sound through them. Generally it didn't work at all. From what limited time I've spent with 18, bluetooth suddenly is usable. First time I tried I was able to connect my headphones and play sound through them, with A2DP. There might be a couple bugs with recognizing devices properly on reconnect, but it's a huge improvement.

    • OK, I went to the page that explained about all the stuff that has changed. Some apps have been substituted for different ones. Different artwork. A new daemon or two. New themes. And some different ways of doing stuff.

      But where is the list of things that I couldn't do on older releases, that I will be able to do now? What new opportunities does this release open up to me, as a user? What extra functions does this release have?

      In short, where is the compelling case to spend time and effort to install this release?

      You can thank Google for that. This should probably have been version 17.4. But since Google has proven "the bigger the number the better the software" we now have this. If Sergy Brin belches while near a google computer, OH MY!, that's a major revision. If they move a textbox, OH MY!, that's a major revision. If a guy in marketing sneezes, OH MY!, ...you guessed it. Narcissistic companies loaded with narcissistic programmers just know everything they do is of paramount importance so their release numbers h

  • by Anonymous Coward

    I've been happily using Mint Mate 13 (Maya) for several years. Wonderful, rock solid OS. Helps restore my sanity each day after being forced to use the putrid buggy Windows 7 at work.

    I can't wait to try the Sara version. Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for all of your work.

    To all Linux developers everywhere, thank you.

  • >"and are working on the "X-Apps" project to "produce generic applications for traditional GTK desktop environments...to replace applications which no longer integrate properly outside of a particular environment." "

    I don't use Mint (use Mageia, Fedora, and CentOS) nor Gnome but THANK GOD for Pluma. I loved gedit and they totally RUINED it. Now if they could fix Atril to be a proper replacement for the now ruined Evince so it DOESN'T USE FREAKING JAVA, that would be super-great too!

    • They have "xreader"! Although it may just be a tweaked build of atril that's slightly better when run without MATE.

  • How do you find out the difference between Cinnamon and Mate? I couldn't even find it on their site, even in the About or FAQ pages. I shouldn't have to use Google to find out what your products are. Unless I totally overlooked it somewhere.

    • by SeaFox ( 739806 )

      They're different interfaces, but they share some similarities. What you're asking is really no different than "What's the difference between Unity and the OSX Finder?" (From a functional standpoint)

    • Mate is like Gnome before it began to suck, Cinnamon is a Gnome 3 that doesn't suck.

    • It's all up to your personal preference really. I've been using Cinnamon on 17.3 for about 6 months now and it's really good.

      Cinnamon seems to have a very premium feel to it.

  • Congrats Mint team. Thanks for building what everyone actually needs to get things done, and for those of us who don't like mysteries and surprises just because of a UI designer's whim.

    • Yeah, I just installed 17.3 on two "new" computers, then 18 comes out. But I like XFCE and so far it hasn't been released.

  • Thank you, I'll run to the download page right now LTS Mint is what I'll need in a few days literally!

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