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IBM Open Source Ubuntu Linux Hardware Technology

IBM Launches Linux-Only Mainframes 157

An anonymous reader writes: IBM is introducing two mainframe servers that only run on Linux. It's part of a new initiative from the Linux Foundation called the Open Mainframe Project. "The idea is that those companies participating in this project can work together, and begin building a set of open source tools and technologies for Linux mainframes, while helping one another overcome common development issues in the same manner as all open source projects." IBM's hardware release is accompanied by 250,000 lines of code that they're open sourcing as well. "Ultimately the mainframe mainstays are hoping to attract a new generation of developers to their platform. To help coax new users, IBM will be offering free access to the LinuxOne cloud, a mainframe simulation tool it developed for creating, testing and piloting Linux mainframe applications." Canonical is working with IBM to bring Ubuntu to mainframes.
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IBM Launches Linux-Only Mainframes

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  • IBM is introducing two mainframe servers that only run on Linux.

    In Capitalist America, Linux runs on mainframe servers.

    • Was that supposed to be funny?

      • by GNious ( 953874 )

        Did it have to be?

      • Yes. Was that ^ supposed to make you look superior?

        If you didn't get it, or did and just didn't think it was funny anyway, that's okay. But what makes you care so much that you felt you had to tell everyone that you didn't find it funny?

        At least one other person has found it funny enough to mod it so, so I'm calling that a win.

        If I've misinterpreted your post, and you're upset because you recently lost someone dear to you in a Linux mainframe related accident, then you have my sympathies.

    • I think that you mean, capitalist India. Right?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday August 17, 2015 @08:01AM (#50330809)

    To help coax new users, IBM will be offering free access to the LinuxOne cloud,

    Is this access just for coax users or is it available via fibre or twisted pair?

  • Suse has supported linux on Z-Series for quite some time https://www.suse.com/products/... [suse.com]
    • These are mainframes that only run Linux. There is no other supported operating system.

      • Re:No it hasn't (Score:4, Interesting)

        by erikscott ( 1360245 ) on Monday August 17, 2015 @08:48AM (#50331073)

        Yup - first thought that ran through my mind: "Oh, they're selling Z Series with crippled Firmware."

        I'm kind of stumped. Linux on a Mainframe is a neat party trick, but it doesn't really make a lot of sense. Modern Z Series hardware is heavily derived from Power. Why not just run Power Linux? Mainframe I/O design is intentionally about as un-PDP-like as possible, so it's a bad match for Unix, Linux, or even Windows for that matter (NT ran on MIPS, so it theoretically could be ported to S/390). Mainframes get their performance by pushing computation into the channel controllers, and while you could do something like that in Linux, are any of your applications ready to treat your database like a device driver? Because that's what you'll have to do. And, incidentally, it's why every attempt from AIX/370 to Linux on Z Series has required virtualization and a ton of independent kernels to get anything resembling decent performance. And that's where Dell will come in and put thousands of cores in a 42U rack for you... No, IBM's own P Series is a better idea, and their former x86 division (now Lenovo) looks even better.

        Erik

        • Yeah, I'm sort of failing to see the point here as well - running your classic z/OS backend stuff and then having a few zIFLs talking to the backend over HiperSockets (IIRC) made sense, but just a big zSeries box with no way to run legacy apps?

          I'm not sure but I guess the market will decide..

          • Yeah, I'm sort of failing to see the point here as well - running your classic z/OS backend stuff and then having a few zIFLs talking to the backend over HiperSockets (IIRC) made sense, but just a big zSeries box with no way to run legacy apps?

            It seems apparent that there now exists a significant market segment that only cares about Linux serving and not legacy mainframe apps.

            • Well, that segment can run Linux on whatever they want, especially since many large-scale Linux-based computing systems have already shifted the job of resiliency (implemented on mainframes in hardware) into a sea of distributed software services.
              • by HiThere ( 15173 )

                Traditionally the main advantage of mainframes was expensive high-capacity peripheral devices. (Well, they used to also be a lot faster...but they were enough more expensive that this was a dubious advantage over a network of micro-computers. And, of course, depending on which decade you are looking at.)

                So. Perhaps the advantage is that this is a mainframe built totally around high end commodity CPUs. IBM sold they chip fab awhile ago, so there's not too much reason that they should stick with the power

                • These days, mainframe peripherals are much like any other... high end EMC or HDS gear or the like, 10G or 40G ethernet and possibly fiberchannel (dinosaur still walking the earth). Interconnect on the mainframe would be better in general than high end rack mount servers, a modest advantage but not enough to justify the cost. Availability is the trump card.

                  • by Shinobi ( 19308 )

                    As to the interconnect, there's also Infiniband. However, the BIG thing with mainframe I/O is that unlike the PC hardware, there's no single system bus that gets split between devices, instead you have a crap-ton of channels that can all communicate concurrently, and the available features for data integrity, encryption etc, which includes checksumming of transfers between devices or between device and RAM etc.

                    • ...the BIG thing with mainframe I/O is that unlike the PC hardware, there's no single system bus that gets split between devices, instead you have a crap-ton of channels that can all communicate concurrently...

                      You mean, unlike old PC hardware. Modern AMD hardware has hypertransport and Intel followed with QPI, both point to point serial architectures. The traditional shared bus is now just an emulation.

                      and the available features for data integrity, encryption etc, which includes checksumming of transfers between devices or between device and RAM etc.

                      PCI devices (now actually serial-connected) are unrestricted in what they can do. Network hardware has because a lot smarter and does a lot more offload. Disk hardware, not so much, but it's heading in that direction. So basically the same thing, which should be no surprise. Updated and subject to stronger evoluti

                    • by Shinobi ( 19308 )

                      Hypertransport and QPI are only between CPU and either a communications hub or straight to the northbridge, and the internal shared bus(AMD and Intel have both shied away from Crossbar Switches, though HP has a custom one for their Superdome machines(which itself tries to go into Big Iron areas)). Things that would make my current Sandy Bridge Xeon or my previous Opteron system choke, such as trying to make multiple infiniband cards run at full steam simultaneously to and from a RAM disk didn't even registe

        • Re:No it hasn't (Score:5, Informative)

          by bws111 ( 1216812 ) on Monday August 17, 2015 @08:58AM (#50331147)

          Modern Z hardware has nothing to do with POWER. Mainframes do not push computation into channel controllers, whatever gave you that bizarre idea? Treat your database like a device driver? What is that supposed to mean? Linux runs native on zSeries, so virtualization is not necessary (and has not been for more than a decade).

          You seem to know absolutely nothing about mainframes, why are you posting?

          • you have some incorrect information also

            First layer virtualization is provided by PR/SM to deploy LPARS prior to this announcement. Linux was not running "natively"

            Of course the Z architecture is modified PowerPC processor based

            • by bws111 ( 1216812 )

              z processors are not and have never been based on PowerPC. I don't know where this myth comes from.

              When someone says that an OS running on a platform 'requires virtualization', they mean that there is some required facility missing from the platform, and that facility is provided by the virtualization layer. There is no such requirement to run Linux on Z. PR/SM is not providiing anything that is not available in the hardware.

              • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

                Presumably, what is meant by that is that their POWER business led to CPU architecture advancements that were strapped onto mainframe tech to power up (pun intended) the extended S/360 ISA. At least that's the thing that would make the most sense to me.
            • Of course the Z architecture is modified PowerPC processor based

              So you're claiming here that the uops into which the z13 microprocessor cracks the non-single-cycle z/Architecture instructions [ieee.org] are Power ISA instructions?

            • by Megol ( 3135005 )

              The IBM Z mainframe is a direct descendant from the IBM 360 from the 60ies.

              Using a modified PPC to run the legacy CISCy code would be bad both for performance and reliability. Even assuming you meant IBM POWER rather than Power PC this holds.

              IBM shares process technology and experiences in e.g. optimizing decimal floating point execution between the POWER and the Z series - but they are completely separate designs.

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by erikscott ( 1360245 )

            Z series and power definitely do not share an instruction set, and they have really substantial differences, but that isn't keeping the engineering teams all that separated, if indeed they are at all.

            Quoting Timothy Prickett Morgan from http://www.itjungle.com/tfh/tf... [itjungle.com] , "And as has been the case in the past, the Power and z processors are designed by a single processing team and are borrowing technologies from each other. This does not, however, mean that IBM is creating a converged processor that can sup

            • by bws111 ( 1216812 )

              They are not 'going down the road'. Linux on Z, and the IFL (Integrated Facility for Linux) has been around for 15 YEARS. This is not something new. I don't know why you think there is some sort of incompatibility between mainframes and Linux.

              • I'm starting to suspect we're in violent agreement here. :-)

                I've physically, with my eyeballs, seen Linux running on some sort of z series a couple years ago. I saw AIX/370 running on some sort of box around 1990-92-ish, so I know it can be done (parenthetically, I was told it shared no code at all with AIX/6000). My entire point with virtualization is not to suggest there's a problem with the mainframe. Whether it makes sense to or not is completely beside the point.

                • by bws111 ( 1216812 )

                  Somehow I completely missed the fact that you were talking about the virtualization aspect of it. Sorry about that.

                  Even so, I don't think it that big of a deal. Linux on Z has it's own drivers, for DASD, OSA, etc. The virtualization layer only needs to trap the 'start subchannel' instruction and translate the CCWs into the 'real' CCWs then do it's own start subchannel. There is no need for the virtualization layer to emulate things like the channel controllers because that is all invisible to the OS any

            • Z has plenty of custom hardware - I think it's fair to say it's predominantly custom - the branch predictor would have to be pretty different, and of course power doesn't have a BCD arithmetic unit.

              Actually, it does have IEEE decimal floating-point, as does z/Architecture. z/Architecture has decimal fixed point, but, these days, it might just trap to millicode doing tricks such as excess-6 for carry propagation [uiowa.edu]. (And the PowerPC processors in at least some AS/400 machines added some instructions to assist BCD arithmetic [google.com].)

              Anyway, I'll argue that they're spiritually and economically related, and there's more than a passing family resemblance. Kind of like power and modern ("advanced server") iSeries,

              There is no iSeries any more, there's just the IBM Power Systems [ibm.com], which are the successors to both RS/6000^WpSeries^WSystem p and to AS/400^WiSeries^WSystem i; they can run both AIX

        • Re:No it hasn't (Score:4, Informative)

          by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Monday August 17, 2015 @09:09AM (#50331205) Homepage Journal

          And that's where Dell will come in and put thousands of cores in a 42U rack for you...

          We're getting to the point where all that matters is how much performance can you get from an assemblage of nodes, and how much does it cost to buy and support it?

          If IBM can provide a lower TCO than Dell with different technology and the "containers" are compatible, many customers will be interested.

        • Linux on a Mainframe is a neat party trick, but it doesn't really make a lot of sense.

          That "party trick" is generally credited [computerweekly.com] for reviving IBM's mainframe business.

          Modern Z Series hardware is heavily derived from Power. Why not just run Power Linux? Mainframe I/O design is intentionally about as un-PDP-like as possible, so it's a bad match for Unix, Linux, or even Windows for that matter (NT ran on MIPS, so it theoretically could be ported to S/390).

          Not sure what you're concerned about. Linux sees the mainframe hardware through drivers like any other architecture. Who cares if the DASD driver using a channel is organized differently from a memory mapped driver for some other arch? It just looks like a block driver to the rest of the kernel.

          Mainframes get their performance by pushing computation into the channel controllers, and while you could do something like that in Linux, are any of your applications ready to treat your database like a device driver?

          Even more puzzled by this comment. S390 applications never need to bother with channel controllers or know they exist.

          Because that's what you'll have to do.

          I doubt it.

          And, incidentally, it's why every attempt from AIX/370 to Linux on Z Series has required virtualization and a ton of independent kernels to get anything resembling decent performance.

          Citation

        • Yup - first thought that ran through my mind: "Oh, they're selling Z Series with crippled Firmware."

          They've been selling z Series with crippled firmware since time immemorial - when special "z Application Assist Processors" were introduced as core options, they allowed to speed up Java and XML processing using extra copies of exactly the same hardware as the general purpose CPU cores...that was locked out (using microcode or something) from running the regular z Series software. The same goes for the "Integrated Facility for Linux" core options that only ran Linux. And the "z Integrated Information Proces

          • by bws111 ( 1216812 )

            Specialty processors like AAPs and ZIPs exist for one reason - saving the customer money. IBMs own software is mostly priced by workload - the more you use it the more you pay. But most ISV software is priced by the capacity of the machine. Since ISV software will not be dispatched on the specialty engines, those engines do not count towards the machine capacity, thereby lowering software costs.

            I am not sure exactly how 'IBM sells you more than you bought'. Perhaps what you meant is that under certain c

            • They could equally well save the customer money by not crippling those cores, wouldn't you think? One wonders why ISV software couldn't simply be licensed so that it won't run on more cores that the license allows. Or maybe it could get actually priced by workload and you'd get billed on basis of transaction stats.
              • by bws111 ( 1216812 )

                Specialty engines are not crippled in any way, they always run at full speed. Even when the CPs are not full speed. And they cost less than full speed CPs. As for why don't the ISVs change how they license or bill, you would have to ask the ISVs. My guess is they don't want to do extra work and make their code more complicated for the sole purpose of getting paid less.

                • I meant "crippled" as in "purposefully blocking the execution of some kinds of software" (which is crippling in the sense that the hardware could run that software technically just fine if the mainframe vendor didn't decide on some random marketing-related reason that it won't be allowed to do that).
      • by bws111 ( 1216812 )

        Linux-only mainframes (all IFLs, no CPs) have been available for years. This is not a new type of machine, it is more of a 'solution'. The major new thing is that you can use KVM to manage virtual images instead of z/VM.

        • by afidel ( 530433 )

          Thanks, I was thinking that there had been an L part number z series box for at least a decade and was wondering what the news was. In fact slashdot covered their first linux only part 13 years ago [slashdot.org]

        • Those "linux only" mainframes still had LPARS under PR/SM first layer hypervisor, this new machine will allow KVM along side of PR/SM

          • by bws111 ( 1216812 )

            It doesn't allow KVM along side PR/SM. Before this announcement you could have Hardware->PR/SM->Linux or Hardware->PR/SM->z/VM->Guests. Now you can also have Hardware->PR/SM->Linux->KVM->Guests.

            This announcement is not a new machine. The machine is z13. The announcement is the ability to virtualize with KVM instead of z/VM.

  • THIS is the kind of story /. was designed for..... VERY cool!!

  • Ubuntu?! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    I'm sorry, but Ubuntu on mainframes? Ubuntu is the linux distribution FURTHEST from being appropriate for a mainframe - it's heavily targeted towards desktop users, particularly those with a lower level of expertise (or a lower desire to put work into their OS) than the average linux user. What's more, it's adware/spyware now, which is definitely something I'd hate to have on a mainframe - the last thing you want is your OS transmitting and receiving data at random!

    • by Dareth ( 47614 )

      Ubuntu is a popular Linux distribution among developers. While I personally prefer Debian, there are plenty of people using Ubuntu to do some very interesting work.

      • None of which is realy to go onto big iron.

        • I've run a few Debian/s390x instances in Hercules and it's pretty cool. Once it's up and running, you wouldn't know you're running on a "mainframe"
          • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

            by Junta ( 36770 )

            you wouldn't know you're running on a "mainframe"

            Your accountant would know if it were really running on a mainframe. Your users and developers wouldn't notice any benefit, but your accountant can painfully feel the weight of the mainframe.

            This is IBM grasping at relevance of their mainframe platform to a wider audience. The problem is that it's not an appealing architecture for those workloads. If anything this may be making some hardcore mainframe shops wonder more strongly if they should be moving off, since even IBM seems to be legitimizing the 'no

            • You are spewing without knowledge, mainframe the most cost effective solution for many enterprise workloads

      • I spoke with some guys running the Ubuntu booth at last year's IBM Enterprise conference in Vegas. They were there to tout their System p distro and when I quizzed them on the potential of a z port I got the deer in the headlights, what are you talking about look. Now that could've just been the guys I was talking to and there may well be some z enthusiasts back at Shuttleworth Towers but from my experience they really didn't seem interested. If you're really serious about running Linux on z you most likely
    • That's like saying Debian and Red Hat are for illiterate cell phone users because they have GNOME 3.

      • Except for, well the actual facts. Canonical does in fact put Ubuntu on phones. That's actually one of their products, Ubuntu Phone. Red Hat, on the other hand, sells Red Hat ENTERPRISE Linux. They do in fact have a different focus.

        "It's all Linux", one might say. Both do use (different) Linux kernels, just like Android does. There are also differences, such as the focus on new features vs time-tested reliability. Red Hat doesn't get the hottest new stuff the moment that upstream releases a beta.

        • I tried to make as much sense as the parent. Know what? Ubuntu has been quite similar to debian especially if you consider that LTS is the real version (that's semi-official since the other ones got reduced to 9 monthes)
          Currently Ubuntu LTS is more conservative than debian jessie, since the latter has systemd. I'm not up to speed about what petty things people can troll about with command-line Ubuntu LTS though.

    • What spyware, please include citations.

      Scale out with Ubuntu Server [ubuntu.com]

      @Anon: "I'm sorry, but Ubuntu on mainframes? Ubuntu is the linux distribution FURTHEST from being appropriate for a mainframe - it's heavily targeted towards desktop users, particularly those with a lower level of expertise (or a lower desire to put work into their OS) than the average linux user. What's more, it's adware/spyware now, which is definitely something I'd hate to have on a mainframe - the last thing you want is your OS tr
      • It does happen, although I'm not sure it happens with Ubuntu server. Canonical does allow you to turn it off, but I have no idea how hard it is to do so.

        Citation [gnu.org]

    • Eh, there is not much difference between Debian and Ubuntu Server, and Debian was the best server Linux distro until the systemd twats ruined parts of it the same as the other major server distros

  • Large, fast, massive IO, and extremely reliable computers running a POSIX or POSIX like OS.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by nhtshot ( 198470 )

      Don't forget that Z series is even more stupid expensive than Sun gear. I get that there's a bunch of R/D that goes into mainframes and keeping a non x86 CPU alive (Sparc/PPC/Zseries). But, if you want new things to be built for them, there has to be a reasonable level of entry for small shops.

      $20k+ (Sun) or $100k+ (Zseries) is not a low enough entry level that I'd going to develop anything for it.

      • You do realise you can emulate a z/Series using Hercules and use that for development, right?

        No need to fork out $100K+ (also since these Linux-only z boxes won't have any CP's, just zIFLs, I think the base price might come down)

        And since it's pretty easy to set up virtualised instances (either using LPARs or say z/VM), you could always share one of these boxes amongst multiple users.

  • by GGardner ( 97375 ) on Monday August 17, 2015 @08:38AM (#50331013)
    I notice TFA has no mention of what the hardware will cost, or what IBM will charge for Linux on a mainframe, or even the model numbers of these two mainframes which are Linux only. And MongoDB on an IBM mainframe? Talk about a culture clash.
  • mainframe servers that only run on Linux.

    Something about that quote seems backwards to me. Can I run that server on a raspberry pi running Linux?

    • There used to be a Windows ad along the lines of "the software that runs forfty percent of the world's computers." They later changed it, either to "runs on" or "is run by" or something like that.

    • mainframe servers that only run on Linux.

      Something about that quote seems backwards to me. Can I run that server on a raspberry pi running Linux?

      Will Hercules [hercules-390.eu] run on an Raspberry Pi? If so, then, yes, you can run that server on a Raspberry Pi running Linux.

      (But, yes, it should have said "that only run Linux".)

      • by bws111 ( 1216812 )

        People are misreading the announcement (and, yes, a lot of it has to do with bad reporting). The annoucement is not a MACHINE that is only capable of running Linux. The announcement is about SOFTWARE, namely that you can now have a virtualized mainframe (ie 'cloud') environment using ONLY Linux. Previously the virtualization had to be provided with z/VM. Now it can be provided by Linux running KVM.

  • I remember back in the early '90's, IBM made a number of statements that they were putting all their chips behind OS/2, and that it was going to be OS/2 everywhere. The shiny new OS/2 they were working on for the PowerPC (Mach kernel) could boot and stay up for 20-30 seconds and they were confident that was going to improve. They were going to put OS/2 on their mid-range devices! They were going to put it on their mainframes! If you were their customer you'd only have to learn one OS and use it on everythin
    • by tomhath ( 637240 )
      Before that they announced PL/1, the First and soon to be the Only Programming Language. Except it flopped, and never replaced any of the other programming languages in vogue at the time.

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