Debian GNU/Linux 8.1 (Jessie) Officially Released 128
prisoninmate writes: The Debian Project has announced the immediate availability of the first maintenance release of Debian GNU/Linux 8 (Jessie). As expected, Debian GNU/Linux 8.1 comes with a new Linux kernel, version 3.16.7-ctk11, which fixes the well-known EXT4 data corruption issue caused by delayed and unwritten extents, blacklists queued TRIM on Samsung 850 Pro SSDs, adds support for XHCI on APM Mustang USB, and updates Crucial/Micron blacklist in libata.
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This is the second release in the history of Debian I didn't give a fuck about.
Well then - finally you got your first post, then you spoil it on a second release!
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Whatever goodwill anyone had for Debian, they pissed it away with systemd.
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I'm perfectly okay with Windows for my games.
I'm perfectly okay with OS X for my work.
I'm perfectly okay with Linux for my servers.
Well, I can't end on such a non-conflicting note, can I? Xbox One and PS4 suck, Wii U* rules!
* nah, just kidding. MAME forever!
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Most people are perfectly alright with Windows. It runs the software they want to run.
Most people who I have talked too really don't care as much about the political party, but a set of issues they stand for. The media seems to like to bucket all the issues into one spot Right vs Left.
Which makes it difficult when they try to place foreign leaders into such buckets. Like the Current Pope, Is he Liberal or Conservative. He has views that crosses American expectation of such values.
Re: Don't care (Score:1)
They will care, probably sooner than they think (Score:4, Insightful)
Let's not pretend everyone has issues with systemd. Plenty of people are totally ok with it.
Until they have to debug a boottime issue (which crops up quite frequently in production environments with systemd). Some overworked desktop/power-management developers and lazy devops folks have been seduced by the promises of systemd, but all it takes is one morning wasted tracking down boottime issues within binary logs and quirky systemd corner cases to make it clear just how bad an idea systemd has turned out to be.
Unfortunately, by then their strategy of subsuming other projects (sianara ntp, it was nice knowin' you), enforcing dependencies, making it more difficult to maintain alternatives (dropping support for biosdevname=0 for example) will have made it difficult if not impossible for those who wake up to switch to something that adheres to more sensible unix norms. I have used Linux since 1993, on my desktop since I could get X running with twm, and later through the gauntlet of enlightenment, gnome, KDE, e17 etc., but I fear this really is the beginning of the end for Linux as a viable alternative to anything. Unless of course Google steps up to the plate with a solid alternative (after all, they don't seem to use systemd in chrome OS). OpenRC is great, but with power management developers refusing the support anything other than systemd, it faces an uphill battle despite being a well established and in most ways a superior init system.
Perhaps the Debian Fork, Gentoo, Funtoo, Arch without Systemd, etc. will succeed in joining forces to maintain a sensible alternative or two. Because otherwise you might as well run OS X ... you get the same byzantine init and config crap, without the other hassles that in the past were worth it to run a clean Linux system, but certainly aren't with systemd in the mix.
Re:They will care, probably sooner than they think (Score:5, Interesting)
Until they have to debug a boottime issue (which crops up quite frequently in production environments with systemd).
You are just talking bullshit here. I have been using systemd for +4 years now and it has been rock stable.
Besides, systemd systems are so much nicer to debug than distros glued together with shell scripts.
Just the fact that you can have full logging and the systemd tools working from initramfs is a vast improvement, and the systemd journal beats all other Linux logging options by a huge distance; field based filtering and monotonic timestamps are just great when debugging boot problems.
Being able to do a "journalctl -b -1 -p err" is so much better than faffing around with grep and regex. (the line shows all log entries from the previous boot with the syslog severity level "error" and above, try that with grep!).
Unfortunately, by then their strategy of subsuming other projects (sianara ntp, it was nice knowin' you)
You are seriously misinformed here; systemd provides a sNTPv4 client, not a ntp-server. It is a compile time option, so no distro ever needs to use it instead of their preferred sNTP-client. It is included in the systemd project for two main reasons; clock-less ARM boards and OS containers. Both have special timing needs since eg. an OS container can be "frozen" and "unfrozen" without warning. systemd provides them both with a solution so they don't gets confused by time jumps.
But perhaps you think choice is bad and there are too many sNTP clients so systemd developers should be banned from providing one?
, enforcing dependencies
Like what? systemd have extremely few external dependencies. And don't try the provable falsehood that systemd inserts "hard dependencies" in other projects like Gnome/KDE.
That Gnome have had problems supporting non-systemd distros was because those distros didn't care to maintain ConsoleKit. Gnome kept on supporting CK despite it having been abandoned for +1½ year with no upstream to provide bug-fixes or security fixes.
But thanks to systemd, there are now several alternatives to ConsoleKit. Choice is good.
, making it more difficult to maintain alternatives (dropping support for biosdevname=0 for example) will have made it difficult if not impossible for those who wake up to switch to something that adheres to more sensible unix norms.
Again, you are really misinformed here; how can systemd ever make it harder for non-systemd distros that are using mdev or vdev or eudev?
If a non-systemd distro wants to use unpredictable network names they can do so.
With systemd distros here is how you turn off predictable network interface names:
http://www.freedesktop.org/wik... [freedesktop.org]
Again, thanks to systemd the Linux ecosystem went from just having udev and mdev, to also having eudev and vdev and probably several more. So if you like choice, praise systemd for providing it.
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The journal is brilliant, anyone who says it isn't needs their head examined.
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The journal is brilliant, anyone who says it isn't needs their head examined.
Yes, the journal really is brilliant. It just solves so many decade old logging Linux problems, and make hard stuff very easy.
I was sceptical about binary log files when I first heard about it, but just playing around with "journalctl" for 10 minutes convinced me wholly.
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Being able to do a "journalctl -b -1 -p err" is so much better than faffing around with grep and regex. (the line shows all log entries from the previous boot with the syslog severity level "error" and above, try that with grep!).
just playing around with "journalctl" for 10 minutes convinced me wholly.
So you've never tried using rsyslog to log to a database then?
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Being able to do a "journalctl -b -1 -p err" is so much better than faffing around with grep and regex. (the line shows all log entries from the previous boot with the syslog severity level "error" and above, try that with grep!).
just playing around with "journalctl" for 10 minutes convinced me wholly.
So you've never tried using rsyslog to log to a database then?
Yes, so I know the many limitations of doing so. It is of course of interest to know that Rainer started the Rsyslog project exactly to overcome the many problems with the old syslog(3) interface, especially the problems with flat file text logs.
I have much respect for the Rsyslog developers work and it certainly weren't their fault they couldn't fix all the problems they set out to solve. So I am glad that Rsyslog now can read/write systemd journal files, meaning that it can be used as a log sink (at least
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Yes, so I know the many limitations of doing so
Such as? I've never had any problems.
I adore the power of using sql queries on logs.
How does journalctl fare in terms of having a trigger set up to automatically do things with logs when they're inserted?
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Such as? I've never had any problems.
I adore the power of using sql queries on logs.
How does journalctl fare in terms of having a trigger set up to automatically do things with logs when they're inserted?
The classic problem was speed. A DB was fine for storing and analysing, but could be severe bottleneck for log sinks.
It isn't so great for local system logging either since DB's tend to appear rather late in the boot sequence.
With journald you can have system logging before the rootfs is even mounted, and since both systemd and journald can pivot back to initramfs after the rootfs has been unmounted, you can potentially have logging after that.
These days it seems that people are using a mixture of DB's and
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Coward!
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You are talking bullshit here, we've been testing systemd for 6 months and it is unstable, rolls the system back to start state for trivial reasons. Not to mention needing all kinds of shims for the parts that haven't even been written yet so it could "function" in a current system. What a bunch of badly designed over complicated garbage
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You are talking bullshit here, we've been testing systemd for 6 months and it is unstable, rolls the system back to start state for trivial reasons. Not to mention needing all kinds of shims for the parts that haven't even been written yet so it could "function" in a current system. What a bunch of badly designed over complicated garbage
There are no "shims" necessary to run systemd. On Debian there is "logind-shim", but no one should use that instead of the proper systemd-logind.
Comments like that, and your bizarre claim of " rolls the system back to start state" makes me suspect that you don't have actual personal understanding and experience of systemd management.
Sure, truly understanding systemd require some serious study, something way too many have neglected, thinking they could just wing it when time came. The payback for the time sp
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Being able to do a "journalctl -b -1 -p err" is so much better than faffing around with grep and regex.
That statement alone shows the core problem with the systemd evangelists: you don' t want to learn generic tools, and instead want to use single-purpose, monolithic[1] apps. A key distinction between the two this windows-style "fancy speciality apps" idea and the design goals of UNIX-like environments [catb.org] is that someone has already implemented the query you want to ask the computer to run.
It's great that you found a useful way to view your log data. Now try to query on something that journalctl didn't already
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Being able to do a "journalctl -b -1 -p err" is so much better than faffing around with grep and regex.
That statement alone shows the core problem with the systemd evangelists: you don' t want to learn generic tools, and instead want to use single-purpose, monolithic[1] apps.
"systemtctl" is a first class classic Linux/Unix tools that works together with all the standard Linux tools like sed, awk, grep, less, tee and what not.
It isn't interactive, it isn't chatty on success, can be piped etc, just like all the good ole GNU stuff. Sure, it can read binary text files like the journal, but so can "last" that is required to be Posix compliant (used to read the utmp/wtmp binary log files). And what about zgrep?
The systemd journal file format (basically an appended text file with non-
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Even this is something journald does so much better than syslog
You are cherry-picking the one thing that isn't logged by most syslog daemons by default,, in a disingenious attempt to show that syslog is "worse", even though it is off by default because it is of little use. If we cared AT ALL to have the "log level" information, it would be logged.
The discussions of the many limitations of syslog,
Fine. Then solve the problem where it should be solved, and add this to /etc/syslog. You systemd apparatchik like editing non-script-based config files, right?
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[snip: about "journalctl -b -1 -p err"]
You are cherry-picking the one thing that isn't logged by most syslog daemons by default,, in a disingenious attempt to show that syslog is "worse", even though it is off by default because it is of little use. If we cared AT ALL to have the "log level" information, it would be logged.
I chose the example because it has proven really useful to me. The example will quickly show any serious error that may have cause a system to fail. Being able to filter out all boot-sessions that aren't relevant is really useful. Being able to see all serious errors on a system at a glance is really useful too. Being able to easily combine such queries into one is pure gold.
But there is so much more that syslog doesn't log. This brings on another fundamental problem w
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On a VM on your mom's MacBook that you take down to Starbuck's in a record bag slung over the crossbar of your fixie.
It is exactly because the systemd-hater camp apparently consist of technical illiterates like you, that they have lost each and every technical argument on all major distros. Ad hominem attacks and poisonous threats and trolling systemd threads are all you can do. Almost all volunteer developers have left the non-systemd camp because of its toxic atmosphere where attacking open source developers and users are as normal as breathing air.
Think about it; the anti-systemd faction couldn't even muster 5 Debian d
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Systemd will fail in the long run. Systemd lovers are just like the windows fanatics of yester year. My company has thousands of Linux systems guess what none of them are moving to a distro the uses systemd and never will. We will still keep making money. And will have a freedom of choice. So go suck it systems lovers.
Why should I care that you don't use a systemd distro? If you are making money on Linux, great. If you are using eg. Slackware to do so, hey, that is great too. I respect mr. Volkerding and his way of making a distro.
I like freedom of choice and I think systemd provides exactly that. Even if you don't like it, you benefit from the fact that there now are several udev-implementations (before there was just udev and the limited mdev) and several ConsoleKit/systemd-logind implementations (before systemd there
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You mean one developer, who's known for throwing shit together in a crufty way, managed to convince three people at the "PNELV" by either boring them shitless or throwing a tantrum.
Never underestimate the influence of slimy sycophants close to the levers of power.
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You mean one developer, who's known for throwing shit together in a crufty way, managed to convince three people at the "PNELV" by either boring them shitless or throwing a tantrum.
No, I mean many many kernel developers, including the guy who maintain all long term stable Linux kernels for the Linux-foundation. Basically the second guy besides Linus Torvalds that the LF employ.
I have seen zero kernel developers backing any other Linux init-system. In fact, the Linux developers seems to actually flee from the rather toxic systemd-hater camp that you and your juvenile behaviour are stellar examples of.
Seriously, who would ever work in a project with a poisonous guy like you?
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And my company is 100% Debian with systemd.
So what?
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I don't like systemd on debian testing which i run on laptop - but upgraded our stable server and systemd picks up init.d scripts and apart from a non on boot running script (easily fixed) i feel quite happy about systemd, i can tell you that systemd in testing is a lot different to stable. So its a bit of a mix.
i have ext3 filesystems.
Apache 2.2 > 2.4 is the worst upgrade job imho
Systemd has been a surprise. (Score:2)
i had read all the negative stuff about systemd - expected a nightmare - updated a couple of machines - small learning curve - but guess what - I ended up liking it. The system found some bugs for me that had eluded me for a long time.
Big deal - I type systemctl start daemon (tab complete works here) instead of /etc/init.d/daemon . I suppose some of you are just too old to learn anything new. Yes change is work - and I'm lazy - but this is obviously the future.
And despite the disinformation posted here
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Unfortunately, by then their strategy of subsuming other projects (sianara ntp, it was nice knowin' you),
Huh?
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Though I have not met an actual Debian user who is "totally ok with it".
Nice to meet you, AC. Former Linux sysadmin and current Sid user here; I've been using Debian for years. ;-)
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Re:Don't care (Score:4, Interesting)
How many of those 'plenty of people' use their Linux machines for more than desktops?
There are some serious open 'show stopping' bugs in systemd for power users.
I've switched over to FreeBSD for all non-Windows machines in my house. If you go through the supported hardware list and pick good hardware everything 'just works'. Everything I've tried out so far is "Do or do not, there is no try". If you find hardware with vendor FreeBSD support it's good support. (Intel GigE vs RealTek GigE).
Jails is all I need for 'visualization'. I don't need an entire new ESXi or Xen instance. My FreeNAS server has 8-10 Jails running everything from Nginx for web development to Transmission+OpenVPN for torrents.
ZFS is a great filesystem for root. When I had a PSU take out a motherboard and 1 hard drive I was able to toss the remaining good drive in a new computer and my whole system booted like nothing happened. Replaced the degraded device and didn't lose anything. My Windows machine kept crashing on boot and required some drivers.
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So even with the latest Fedora they have yet to figure out network storage mounting.
And this is supposed to be the backbone of CoreOS...
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How many of those 'plenty of people' use their Linux machines for more than desktops?
There are some serious open 'show stopping' bugs in systemd for power users.
Who uses NFS anyways :P (over wifi!) If this is for a desktop machine, mount nfs through nautilus/gvfs
lack of non-ascii support [redhat.com]
That is not a systemd bug (as discussed in the bug), but a problem in redhats packaging of components or initialisation scripts.
systemd is sending wrong audit event [redhat.com]
Apparently a bug in libselinux, not in systemd. Anyways, hardly a show-stopper to have the wrong audit log entry.
System with Intel firmware RAID-1 does not mount /home on boot (udev/systemd race with mdadm issue) [redhat.com]
This is the only one that is probably a systemd bug, or at least requires the workaround implemented in systemd.
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>Let's not pretend everyone has issues with systemd. Plenty of people are totally ok with it.
That is no reason to remove the choice.
What choice was removed? You do know that systemd is an optional component of Debian Jessie? Use sysvinit or upstart if you prefer.
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Look at what was posted in the same thread about a serious bug in systemd that was not fixed by systemd developers, nor in Fedora, but was fixed first in Ubuntu, then in Debian 8.1. A mature well tested system should NOT have those kind of issues, which systemd is not.
Here is direct link [slashdot.org].
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+1
Re:Don't care (Score:5, Insightful)
Debian is one of the few Linux distributions, that is trying to be a Linux distribution.
Other tend to try to copy Windows or OS X, and be Mr. Happy Friendly Desktop System.
I don't want Desktop Linux. I want a Workstation Linux. A system where I can do work on, not a system that is hiding where my actual stuff is.
If I want a Desktop system like Windows or OS X, I will use Windows or OS X... But I want a system that is uniquely Linux. And Debian is a set of a few Distributions that offer that.
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> Gentoo + OpenRC here, fuck systemd. If the rest of you enjoy having something shoved down your throats for political purposes
THANK YOU FOR TELLING US WHAT YOU USE!
Can you imagine what we would do if Arch/Gentoo/Someobscuredistro didnt enlighten us with their particular choice of software???
Keep doing god's work son.
There are more reasonable alternatives (Score:3, Informative)
> Gentoo + OpenRC here, fuck systemd. If the rest of you enjoy having something shoved down your throats for political purposes
THANK YOU FOR TELLING US WHAT YOU USE!
His point is that you have more reasonable options for a server Linux system than a distribution that has adopted an opaque init system like systemd that is being pushed largely by the desktop crowd (not that you need it for a good desktop...lots of people have been running modern Linux desktops since the 1990s, and have kept up with the late
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look dude you are on dilbert [dilbert.com]!
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"Many system engineers, Dev Op guys, and admins have seen this, which is why in the server world there is so muc
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Some options for a systemd desktop OR server Linux system:
and many more. All of which many find to be much more suited for servers than Fedora or Debian with systemd.
Honestly, even with systemd[1] Gentoo is actually a pretty awesome distro for a server; definitely better than Debian. The compile-times are less of an issue since most of the really large programs aren't ones you'd install on a server (chrome, libreoffice), and being able to install any of the last N stable versions (sometimes side-by-side using slots) of a package is pretty convenient when you have third party software. The way configuration files are updated after an upgrade instead of during is also muc
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Debian can be a nice server, but i don't like using such old software on the desktop.
What component of Jessie is too old for you?
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This is the second release in the history of Debian I didn't give a fuck about.
I'm with you.
If they made a netinst CD/DVD/Thumbdrive that had sysvinit by default, I'd consider going back.
Because adding: preseed/late_command="in-target apt-get install -y sysvinit-core" to the kernel boot line is just so damn hard.
Also fixes data-loss caused by systemd screwup (Score:5, Interesting)
This releases also fixes a grave bug in systemd. Depending on several conditions, it would SIGKILL things way too aggressively on shutdown, causing data corruption and data loss if the service it just SIGKILLed in haste had anything worthwhile to do.
Interestingly enough, that bug was fixed post-haste by Ubuntu, and a bit more sluggishly by Debian the moment someone came across the issue and found a bug report in Fedora that described the root cause... while the same bug still lingers in the Fedora bug tracking. In fact, it is still open in Fedora and systemd upstream. Note that said bug was reported to Fedora in 2014-09 !!
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1141137
I sure hope this attitude is not prevalent in the RHEL side.
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No, it's not possible for systemd to have a bug. Our very own Peter H.S. told us that systemd is "rock stable" [slashdot.org]. "Rock stable" software systems don't have bugs! And Peter H.S. has a 5-digit Slashdot UID! Clearly he knows what he's talking about, and couldn't possibly be wrong.
Yes, I know what I am talking about since I both use systemd and have read the systemd documentation. This is unlike you and the rest of the toxic systemd-haters who only repeat the party line as regurgitated by loony blogs, but hasn't bothered reading even the systemd man-pages.
systemd really is rock solid and amazingly secure by default. The fact that it uses "namespaces", "cgroups" and "capabilities" to protect long running system daemons, is far superior to what any other non-systemd distro have to offe
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Systemd is terribly unstable and rolls state back for trivial reasons. Those of us in charge of data centers see the issues, your laptop or home pc is not a viable model of reality.
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Systemd is terribly unstable and rolls state back for trivial reasons. Those of us in charge of data centers see the issues, your laptop or home pc is not a viable model of reality.
What "state" are you talking about. This is Linux/Unix, not a transactional OS. systemd doesn't perform "roll backs". What trivial reason? Maybe that could explain what you are trying to say. It really sounds like you have no personal experience with systemd nor have read anything about it.
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Frankly, tells us more about Debian, Ubuntu and Fedora than systemd.
SELinux? (Score:2)
Awesome, but does it have (Score:2)
Real time kernels? Did they resolve the funding issue?
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No replies to this post really demonstrates how clueless and inexperienced /. readers are these days.
Warning if upgrading from Wheezy: (Score:4, Informative)
If you don't want systemd then in your /etc/apt/preferences, add:
Package: systemd
Pin: origin ""
Pin-Priority: -1
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BTW ha-ha to all you all you guys who pushed EXT4 before it was ready for prime-time while making fun of those of us still using XFS or ReiserFS. Whose filesystem buried their inodes in the back yard now, huh?
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ext4 was more than ready when it became default in Debian.
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Yea, sure, if you omit "doesn't randomly corrupt filesystem on reboot" from the list of mandatory requirements.
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It didn't happen to me. I wasn't even aware there was such a large-scale bug. And it's not as if reseirfs or XFS were bug-free either. If I were scared by ext4, I'd use ext3, not reiser or XFS.
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who was affected? A bug that affects only 0.0001% of users is a lot less relevant.
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According to Slashdot it affected only kernels 3.4 to 3.6. I wasn't using any of those kernels so I was fine. It's more an argument against those specific (unpatched) kernel versions than against ext4 as a filesystem.
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ZFS is GPL-incompatible, it will never reach wide acceptance in the Linux* community (or Windows). Unless your PC has a single purpose of storing files, I doubt the file system is an important enough reason to switch to another OS. BTRFS has similar functionality and is becoming mature quickly, so that will probably be my next file system if I ever need these features or when it becomes the default in Linux distributions.
*Yes, I know there is a fuse project and a 3rd party ZFS kernel module but they both su
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Every kernel module not in the mainline kernel suck compared to an integrated one. It needs to be recompiled for every new kernel, often breaking things, and in many cases (such as this one), taints the kernel so you loose a lot of support.
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There is nothing fundamentally GPL-incompatible about ZFS.
The OpenZFS code written by sun isn't GPL compat, but there is no reason why somebody couldn't couldn't rewrite it and release it under GPL. It would be a huge waste of time, but GPL license bickering tends to do that.
Unfair to blame this problem on "GPL license bickering" -- Sun deliberately made their license GPL incompatible.
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ZFS is a memory hog. I wouldn't advise it. I've seen cases where the file system cannot be imported (mounted) at boot, and that situation is not one that you want when all your important data is in that pool. In general, the FS is poor in performance. Sure, if you value long term data retention ZFS is great, but so is tape storage. Why not just use ext/xfs for live data and tape for historical, then you can keep your RAM and performance. This way you get to store your archives somewhere (like you need to wi
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ha-ha to all you all you guys who pushed EXT4 before it was ready for prime-time while making fun of those of us still using XFS or ReiserFS. Whose filesystem buried their inodes in the back yard now, huh?
XFS has eaten some of my data, ext4 never has. Anecdote, data, whatever, XFS can blow me.
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You really gotta run that cron job with XFS. I know, its undignified, but XFS is really old.
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But don't we want to get systemd since it is the future? :( I am just going to stick with oldstable for a while.
Most Importantly It updates all the system librari (Score:2)
Alternate (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Alternate (Score:4, Informative)
Check out FreeBSD [freebsd.org]
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OpenBSD, please.
When is v8.2 coming out then? (Score:2)
:D
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Sorry, you lost me at 5year investment.
The *vast* majority of drivers for Linux are, in the Linux kernel. It has been upwards of ten years since I needed to get a driver from the internet. I think that was for a SB Live card that needed emu10k, it didn't take long before that was included in the Linux kernel. What was the other thing, perhaps it was winmodems. Unsurprisingly they needed drivers and gave poor performance anyway. Nope. I can't see your argument for it being internet dependant. On the other ha