With Microsoft Office on Android, Has Linus Torvalds Won? 365
sfcrazy writes "The father of Linux, Linus Torvalds, once said, 'If Microsoft ever does applications for Linux it means I've won.' Microsoft yesterday released one of its cash cows, Microsoft Office, for Android. Since Microsoft has a very vague idea of what users want and is suffering from lock-in, the app is just an Android front end of Office 365 and is accessible only by the paid users. There are already quite a lot of office suites available on Android including Office Pro, QuickOffice and KingSoft, so Microsoft will have to struggle there. Still it's a Microsoft core application coming to Linux. So, it looks like Linus has won."
I don't know, has he? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a silly question, anyway.
Linus isn't really linux by itself, he just had a critical part to play. The more accurate question would be "is Microsoft losing relevance and marketshare?" to which the answer is yes, and not really a surprise.
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:5, Interesting)
If they are losing relevance than why would this even warrant a story? How would having even more people using Office be akin to losing relevance? It seems it would be the opposite.
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:5, Insightful)
For the first time in a very long time, Microsoft isn't a "Windows" company. For a brief moment, there was someone who realized that in order to be relevant moving forward, Microsoft will have to stop being a "windows" company. Let see if it stays a "second tier" Office App on Android or if Microsoft makes it world class. That will be the true sign that Microsoft has or has not stopped being a Windows company.
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They also have a games division, a phone division, and a bunch of other stuff... but the fact is that most of their money is either directly made from Windows, or from a product anchored by their Windows desktop monopoly. I suspect that even their Mac sales are mostly from people who need to stay compatible with their Windows-using colleagues/customers.
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:5, Insightful)
Word is the least interesting part of Office. It solves a problem that few people have any more: editing a document for printing. Word was important during the era of "desktop publishing", starting when home printers became decent, and ending when people stopped handing around printed paper as a way to communicate.
The important Office products are PowerPoint and Excel. There are no good competitors for either. And while I wouldn't want to edit either on my phone, being able to project a slideshow or spreadsheet from one's phone will be really big deal for years to come.
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:4, Interesting)
>The important Office products are PowerPoint and Excel. There are no good competitors for either.
There are many perfectly serviceable competitors for PowerPoint and Excel, both free and proprietary.
What there is no effective competition for is Visio. Visio is far and away the most effective technical drawing tool. Nothing comes close. It is the reason I use Office. I can write words and make slides on any platform, but I can't get the smartshape automation of Visio anywhere else.
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:5, Interesting)
There are many perfectly serviceable competitors for PowerPoint and Excel, both free and proprietary.
People who live and die by the PowerPoint sales presentation don't agree. I can't stand slideware myself, so I don't have a strong opinion, but people I know who make and show presentations all day (and have good reasons to use non-MS products) say there's just no comparison. SmartArt automation is a big part of it, I'm guessing.
Similarly, unless you just need a spreadsheet calculator, I haven't seen anything that stands with Excel - certainly the online spreadsheets like the Google Docs one don't come anywhere close. I use Excel as my drawing program (if you make the cells square, it's great for the kind of drawing you do on graph paper), which nothing else seems good at, but mostly there's this whole culture of "spreadsheet programmers" who only know Excel/VBA (seriously, no other languages or training, but spend days on VBA programs).
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So what are they becoming, an "Office" company?
XBox company. Too bad the console market is imploding. [youtube.com]
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re innovate a text editor
You should see SuddenView. It's almost a paint program for words; each line is its own format, among other things, and its _fast_. It's the most radical text editor I've seen. Designed and written by Rod Coleman originally for the Atari ST. For anyone who does a lot of writing, especially for a living, it can be one hell of a helpful tool. I met Rod at an Atarifest in '91 where he demo'ed SuddenView, and yes, consider this a plug, if you want, because for what it is and what it
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:5, Insightful)
They are losing relevance. But they have a lot of relevance to lose, so expect them to be significantly relevant for a while yet.
(May the Lord Bless and Keep Ballmer - far, far away from us.)
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:4, Insightful)
Disagree. They've been losing relevance for a long time, and we're noticing now that they're struggling to find any relevance. They did have a lot of relevance to lose, as they squandered away what relevance Windows had, trying for markets they were weak in (server) while neglecting markets they were strong in (desktop), all while continuing to be so far behind the curve they just don't get what's going on until it's years too late (mobile).
They might have been a strong player in the game console market, but then they pulled an XBone.
Business is still pretty big, but with Windows losing day-to-day familiarity with users, their last bastion is going to erode quickly as users start asking "why can't we use something else?" I fully expect them to throw billions at trying to find relevance for years to come, though. This all might be foreshadowed by RIM and Blackberry: originally king at business, trying to fit in elsewhere, disrupted by technology they didn't grasp, falling behind, throwing money at trying to stay relevant, while everyone else wants to move on.
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True. Even if they do lose the lock on the non-Apple desktop and laptop market, they may still be able to do an IBM and reinvent themselves.
We'll finally know that Microsoft is at the tipping point when the Walmart, Futureshop, Best Buy, Staples, etc all devote floor space to non-Mac and non-Windows laptops and desktops (e.g. Linux, Chromebook, etc) and its common for businesses that currently buy both Macs and Windows start buying these non-Mac and non-Windows laptops and desktops.
We're still a long way fr
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:4, Interesting)
This all might be foreshadowed by RIM and Blackberry: originally king at business, trying to fit in elsewhere, disrupted by technology they didn't grasp, falling behind, throwing money at trying to stay relevant, while everyone else wants to move on.
RIM, whether they like it or not, is transitioning into a services company. They made an incredibly shrewd move with the Mobile Device Management platform formerly Blackberry Fusion, now rebranded Universal Device Service. They allowed existing Blackberry customers to migrate licenses for all of 2013 for free to the new platform and use those licenses to manage not only Blackberry 10 devices (naturally) but also iPhone/iPad and Android devices. This made an incredibly strong cost/benefit argument for existing customers faced with increasing pressure to allow corporate iPhones and Androids to just keep using Blackberry to manage them. This helps Blackberry (the company) ensure a consistent revenue stream from MDM licensing even if you're using a competitors product.
The switch to ActiveSync for messaging will also help take the load off of their servers, allowing them to shrink their infrastructure saving even more money, and whether the phone ends up being popular or not (it's a pretty solid device, just very few apps as yet), they have a viable path forward for the future. They were already a trusted name in the MDM market with a great deal of penetration with their old devices. The leveraged that pretty hard and I think it will be their saving grace going forward.
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It's like asking what would happen if the oceans started draining [xkcd.com]? Yeah, it would eventually devastate the oceans, but there's so much water there that it takes forever. For Microsoft to fold up shop would take at least a decade of consistently bad decisions, and even then it would almost have to be willful.
For modern examples of tech companies in decline, consider Blackberry, formerly Research in Motion. Everybody says they are dead in the water, but if you look at it, they still have billions in cash,
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Desktop you are right, Server you are wrong.
Even VMware is using it. Not to mention normal linux server stuff. Windows servers fall into two categories your has to be on windows stuff and windows only shops. The latter are getting less and less.
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Your assumptions are that hyperV is cutting edge, vs playing catch up.
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Comparatively, VMware is considered the market master when it comes to Virtual Environments and they've got t
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:5, Insightful)
Precisely. Linux as a kernel has "won," but Linux as a desktop OS is still far behind. And I think that's what Linus was talking about at the time, Linux on the desktop.
Android is "Linux" to approximately the same extent that MacOS X is "BSD" or "Mach," and I don't think anyone imagines that BSD has "won" because of Office for Mac or that there are 900K iOS apps out there. I think it's much more appropriate to say that if anyone "won" here it's Android, but I think that Linus is smart enough not to try to take credit for what Google has done on top of "his" kernel.
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It's more like saying that a car's particular engine isn't important, and you can just replace a Ferrari's V12 engine with a Chevette engine and the driver will barely notice the difference.
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Sure, but what most car users will care about is that there is an engine, not exactly which engine it is or how it's constructed. Some car users might even not know that there is an engine in the car.
I think that this car analogy isn't really that good. More people probably know the basics of how an engine works and why it's needed, than the people that know what an operating system kernel is. Also, some people will buy a car depending on which engine it has but few will buy a phone or tablet based on the k
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Debian are attempting a port that replaces Linux with BSD...
Uh, why? Where can I read more about this? Sure, there are some things about the BSD kernel I admire (I think its a hell of a lot more straitforward to configure) but I'm curious to know their reasoning.
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http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/ [debian.org]
It has been part of the official release for some time now.
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Debian GNU/kFreeBSD. Now you know what to search for, you can find out as much as you ever might need.
As for why: https://wiki.debian.org/Debian_GNU/kFreeBSD_why [debian.org]
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Same can be said about Ubuntu, Debian, Gentoo, and Fedora (especially Gentoo and Debian, seeing that we have FreeBSD (and Hurd on Debian) based releases (and some ports of Debian to Illumos)).
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Correct me if I'm wrong (please), but with the recent kernel check-ins, Linux is Android on the ring 0 (or whatever equivalent ARM uses) level. In a twisted way, Android revs are just Linux distros that are specialized, and have special drivers for the SoC stuff that is on phones and devices.
Again, I could be wrong, but this is how it appears to me.
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Absolute nonsense. Dalvik and other Android components have been heavily optimized within the Linux kernel and userspace. Yes, I'm sure parts of Android probably are portable, but considering Linux's appeal both for its available source code and its licensing, why would Google even want to waste enormous resources moving it to another OS?
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:5, Insightful)
It uses the Linux kernel, therefore it "is Linux".
It is not "GNU/Linux", if you're a Stallmanite; it uses none of the GNU userland. (Although who the hell ever actually said guhnoo-slash-linux anyway?)
The graphics stack is not X11, but that hardly makes it a different entity.
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:I don't know, has he? (Score:4, Interesting)
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And that adds up to hundreds of millions of users _not_ using Microsoft or Apple products. That's success by any definition.
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Android is as much as linux as debian.
Both can have their kernels swapped if you really wanted.
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Obligatory (Score:2, Insightful)
No.
Let me be the first to say... (Score:2, Insightful)
!!!YES!!
WINNING (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know if it's something distinctly American or what but having a broader choice of operating systems and software that can run on a variety of them means WE WIN.
Linus didn't win the game... (Score:2, Insightful)
... the game changed and Microsoft is losing this one.
Mod summary -1 troll (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux already "won" - his goal was to create a Unix-like OS and it became incredibly popular. As far as I am aware he has never shown much interest in getting MS Office for it, or for market share.
Nice try creating animosity where there is none. The summary is full of typos and weasel-words. I'm not huge MS fan but the summary is full of bias in an attempt to turn a mildly interesting story into a flamewar or hatefest.
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Yes, a better question is, is that still the benchmark that Linus uses for determining success? Something tells me....no.
Re:Mod summary -1 troll (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Mod summary -1 troll (Score:5, Funny)
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Technically yes, but in reality, no. (Score:2)
So, this is a win in the same sense that the Spruce Goose flew.
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No, he's saying that Linus won ( Android has Linux), Stallman did not ( Android does not have GNU userland).
Re:Technically yes, but in reality, no. (Score:5, Insightful)
So what you are saying is that both Linus and Richard Stallman won.
No, Google won.
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Stallman is probably more interested in this move than Linus is. On the one hand I imagine he is annoyed that MS Office is proprietary and the dominant format, but on the other hand he must be pleased that GNU code and free software in general is now powering so many devices. In fact the majority of computers and complex embedded systems are running free software now, in part.
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You can pretty easily add that stuff to android.
My phones and tablets are doing just that.
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Same for debian, they already have a BSD based version. Is Debian Linux or not?
Re:Technically yes, but in reality, no. (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux the kernel is the core of both Android the operating system and GNU/Linux the operating system. If one gets pedantic, then technically Microsoft Office for Android satisfies the argument that it's supported on an OS running Linux the kernel, but when most people use "Linux", they're not referring to the kernel, but the operating system with all of its GNU and POSIX stuff.
So, this is a win in the same sense that the Spruce Goose flew.
If you're really being pedantic, and really want to start the flame war that you seem to be encouraging, "Linux" is the name of both the kernel and the original operating system, and some other organization has attempted to rename it to put their own brand in it more recently. Someday we may know it at MIT/BSD/GNU/Canonical/RHEL/Linux if that trend keeps up. Or we could just call it what the person who created it called it, and if GNU wants a GNU/whatever OS, they can release a distro with their name on it.
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Thank you!
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Linux the kernel is the core of both Android the operating system and GNU/Linux the operating system. If one gets pedantic, then technically Microsoft Office for Android satisfies the argument that it's supported on an OS running Linux the kernel, but when most people use "Linux", they're not referring to the kernel, but the operating system with all of its GNU and POSIX stuff.
Actually he's won using that definition too. The Linux kernel has virtualization code [arstechnica.com] from Microsoft already.
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So, this is a win in the same sense that the Spruce Goose flew.
Naw, Hughes flew the Goose once then shelved both it and himself for the rest of his life. Linus, although living in a small house in Portland (or wherever) and only coming out to rant at his developers like a maniac, actually gets out and about to shout at the world, and Linux is flying in shops all over the world, so, no, its not at all like the Spruce Goose.
A webapp is a webapp is a webapp (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems silly to conflate this with Microsoft making products for Linux.
This is just an app that's a wrapper for a web app. The same web app you can already run on Desktop Linux.
Besides which, last I checked this wasn't a free webapp and was, in fact, a way for Microsoft to milk more money out of companies that would have otherwise only had to pay Microsoft for each Office license once. Now it's a monthly fee.
The fact that it also works on other OSes is just a "bonus."
the only thing (Score:5, Insightful)
The only thing that O365 - a closed web platform available only to those who pay a subscription - on Android means is that users lose.
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Now Android users can have the same experience iOS users have had for a couple months - swearing at their phones, wondering why Microsoft bothered to release such a neutered product!
I'm sure Linus is having a piece of cake in celebration...
Excuse me, you're late to the party (Score:5, Informative)
Microsoft has already released several applications for Android, as is evidenced here https://play.google.com/store/apps/developer?id=Microsoft+Corporation [google.com]. I still cannot find any thing for Microsoft Office, except maybe Onenote.
MSN Messenger for Android was released in 2012.
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No (Score:2)
Only if you consider a nice platform being poisoned by that software winning.
not really (Score:2)
Use semi-monopoly to force stupid crap that customers don't want down people's throats = less money, benefits the competition by losing sales
Give people what the market research says they actually want = more money, hurts the competition by losing them sales
If this is the beginning of them pulling their heads out of their asses, this is not good for Linux at all.
No, Linus is not making Linux to win (Score:2)
Linus has seen Wargames and knows that sometimes
the best way to win is not to play the game
He does it just for fun.
Linux hasn't won anything. (Score:2, Insightful)
Android Inc has shown what many of us have always said. If the OSS moment got around to making user friendly easy to use stuff, it will take off. All your forking and hiding behind the command line are just killing you. Installs are getting better, much better, but still the amount of work someone has to do is too steep a learning curve for your Average joe to be able to setup and maintain a general Linux system. In the old days it used to be said someone with an Average IQ could EITHER remember the road ru
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Which is what Ubuntu is for.
A good strategy (Score:2)
Possibly, but ... (Score:2)
Genius... (Score:5, Informative)
Guess what?
Microsoft didn't release Office for Android.
They released Office Mobile for Office 365.
What you imply is that they released an office suite for Android, when in fact, they merely released an Android client for Office 365 users.
As much as you might care to think one is pretty much the same as the other, you would be wrong. This app is not for editing office documents on your mobile device. It is for Office 365 users to view items synced to their cloud....nothing more. It cannot even access items on your mobile device...
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If by win... (Score:2)
Everybody can finally go home now. (Score:2)
A well executed decoy by the allies of Linus succeeded to lure MS to make a wrong move after about 20 years in this epic battle! The ambush took MS by surprise because of the lack in their intelligence about the quotes of Linus. Whew I'm glad it's over!
So what's in the future of Slashdot after all this? The currently still low burning Distro Wars?
Does it matter? (Score:4, Interesting)
Pyrrhic victory... (Score:2)
...the apps is just an Android front end of Office 365 and is accessible only by the paid users.
More such victories and we are undone.
office 365 is the end of office (Score:2)
Re:office 365 is the end of office (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft is pushing for subscription services because they realised their greatest competitor is themselves from five years ago. Look how long it took to get people off of XP. They reached the point where their software was 'good enough' that no-one has a compelling reason to upgrade to a new version, and the loss of a perpetual upgrade cycle ruins the whole business model.
MS knows exactly what THEIR core customers want (Score:4, Informative)
"Since Microsoft has a very vague idea of what users want" ... BS
Do you own a truck? If you don't and don't want one you wouldn't tell Ford and Ram(Dodge) what they should put in their trucks.
Excel is the Grep\AWK\Sed of the enterprise\business world. Not all of it, but a large percentage. The fact of the matter is there is a whole lot in your life that was built with the assistance of Word, Excel, and hell even PowerPoint. You think the construction company that built the building your in uses VIM to manage there shit.
Slashdot in general does not get this. I'm sure there are plenty of desktop support guys on here who do. Google docs is great an I use them all the time, but it's a tinker toy to some of the more advanced features in Excel that most people haven't even heard of.
Throw together a pivot table with a slicer and then see me in the morning. Take a look at stock symbol DATA for tableu...there is a world outside of compilers, web servers, and VIM people.
You can't tell me you haven't heard a iPad guy tell you he wishes he had Excel on there.
MS has done okay with the XBox. I think the phone and tablet is a catch 22 for them. If they don't do it people will wonder why. If they do people will wonder why.
Just extending vendor lock-in to a new platform (Score:4, Informative)
.
You pay a $10 a month fee to have Microsoft control your access to your own documents. While I have not used it, I can not imagine being able to do anything on a mobile phone via the web that would be worth the price. And don't even think of trying to install it on a tablet, you are not allowed. Microsoft probably thinks that a person with a tablet might actually expect to be able to do something with it, and wanting money for nothing they thought it easier to just deny tablets. Like that's really going to make me want to buy one of their tablets. Dream On!
Requirements:
* A qualifying Office 365 subscription is required to use this app. Qualifying plans include: Office 365 Home Premium, Office 365 Small Business Premium, Office 365 Midsize Business, Office 365 Enterprise E3 and E4 (Enterprise and Government), Office 365 Education A3 and A4, Office 365 ProPlus, Office 365 University, and Office 365 trial subscriptions
NOTE: If you don’t have an Office 365 subscription, you can buy Office 365 Home Premium from http://www.office.com./ [www.office.com] With Office 365 Home Premium, you also get the latest version of Office for up to 5 PCs, Macs, and Windows tablets - and an additional 20 GB of SkyDrive cloud storage and Skype world minutes***.
* Requires a phone running Android OS 4.0 or later.
* Microsoft Office 2013 on a PC is needed for features like recent documents and resume reading.
**Office 365 account and setup necessary. Data connection required. Storage limits and carrier fees apply.
The real question is: Who cares? (Score:3)
Doing a poll of the general population around me, not a single one of them uses any office suite on their phones.
Now, it's a biased sample. Almost half are iphones, almost half are androids, and there are a couple "dumb" call phones. None of them have a Windows 8 phone. (I like to call that 'Biased towards reality'.)
Most of us get Microsoft Office files. But the email reader either opens the files natively or can shunt it to a simple document viewer to open the files in a read-only mode.
The point is that having office (either Microsoft Office or any other office suite) on a cell phone is overkill. Even on a tablet computer. It's not until you have a real keyboard (and, likely, a mouse) are you going to make "office-type" documents.
Seeing as how ... (Score:3)
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Android is not Linux. Linux is a kernel not the OS.
That's why some say GNU/Linux.
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Some people also eat their own toe jam, so there's that.
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The part of the system that people interact with is GNU.
It's just like MacOS isn't Unix. It's more like System 6 with a Unix kernel underneath. Even if you think it's all only OpenStep now, it's still Openstep, not Unix.
Yeah, the little details matter.
Linux was always that last remaining missing part of GNU.
Re:Huh? (Score:4, Informative)
It's just like MacOS isn't Unix. It's more like System 6 with a Unix kernel underneath. Even if you think it's all only OpenStep now, it's still Openstep, not Unix.
Apple used to ship a UNIX distribution that was like that called A/UX. System 6 UI, UNIX underneath.
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Huh. [opengroup.org]
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Android is not Linux. Linux is a kernel not the OS.
That's why some say GNU/Linux.
Technically, this one's Android/Linux.
Haven't seen much GNU on my Android device, but the Linux is definitely there.
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I hereby invoke the Fifth Meme of Slashdot.
("You must be great fun at parties.")
Semantics (Score:4, Insightful)
Linux maybe the kernel, but the whole point of why Richard Stallman never had any luck persuading others with his then very valid point that it should be GNU/Linux, was Linux was such a important, significant, and difficult part of the OS that naming it anything else was stupid (and plain just not as catchy).
The fact that it is used together with a whole host of userlands....Android perhaps the most viable and widespread hitting 900,000,000 install base is simply an aside. Its set to dethrone Microsoft this year.
The fact that I benefit on a GNU/Linux desktop from the work google do elsewhere in their Chrome/Android OS is the wonderfulness of Linux's choice of GPL as a tit for tat licence.
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Hm.
Actually, I think Linux is the community. (I mean this quite seriously.) And as such, Android has some overlap with linux, but isn't quite the same thing, either.
But still, I think we all win.
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The Android open source project is free software, but no one really knows about the binary blobs the device makers and carriers ship to you.
Very few actually run Android, most run some of its forks.
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Android is collecting all your data, that's why it's free. Linux is truly free, unlike Android.
Unless you root your phone, which is easily done, so no, not in my case.
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Android is collecting all your data, that's why it's free. Linux is truly free, unlike Android.
Unless you root your phone, which is easily done, so no, not in my case.
Actually, what you did was probably install a rom compiled by someone else, so you still have no idea what it does. The correct answer is: you haven't a clue...
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You realize we are talking about office suites on Android, right?
This is libreoffice on android
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/LibreOffice_on_Android [documentfoundation.org]
To sum up: we have "a fairly horrific, bolts and all, barely usable (even with keyboard and mouse) office suite on your tablet"
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I think that would be great, too, so long as Microsoft provides the source code. Until then, they can cram it.
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I think the interesting case is increasingly Apple, not Microsoft. (Though whether Cook can keep momentum is an important question. If he's Apple's Ballmer, well, we may well yet have the year of linux as a primary workstation.*) What does the BSD kernel really mean? In the academic space, it means that for many domains Microsoft is becoming increasingly irrelevant, because so many of the good tools (and the tools you don't have to pay for) are coming out of a unix world, and can be made to run on Macs with
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I'd agree. But Android isn't getting there. Its kind of worse. If our computing ethos is to simply change one moniker (Microsoft) for (Google) and revert to a single user OS (windows 95) >> Android - and to go back to pretty much the worst security landscape imaginable (Hi Android circa 2013) - I'm sat here trying to establish that I've not just seen us move totally side ways and not forward.
Whats next I ponder - a google 'trustworthy computing moment?'
Maybe people are happy that MS has taken the hit