Red Hat Ditches MySQL, Switches To MariaDB 203
An anonymous reader writes "Red Hat will switch the default database in its enterprise distribution, RHEL, from MySQL to MariaDB, when version 7 is released. MySQL's first employee in Australia, Arjen Lentz, said Fedora and OpenSuSE were community driven, whereas RHEL's switch to MariaDB was a corporate decision with far-reaching implications. 'I presume there is not much love lost between Red Hat and Oracle (particularly since the "Oracle Linux" stuff started) but I'm pretty sure this move won't make Oracle any happier,' said Lentz, who now runs his own consultancy, Open Query, from Queensland. 'Thus it's a serious move in political terms.' He said that in practical terms, MariaDB should now get much more of a public footprint with people (people knowing about MariaDB and it being a/the replacement for MySQL), and direct acceptance both by individual users and corporates."
MariaDB? (Score:4, Funny)
I use unencrypted XML and CSV files you insensitive clod!
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The interesting part is: will Oracle's copy of RHEL include the change to use MariaDB?
Or will they 'fork' to keep their own MySQL?
Wish I was a fly on the wall @ oracle when this gets discussed :)
Red Hat (Score:5, Funny)
We're nobody's bitch.
MySQL is Dead! Just like Cobol (Score:4, Insightful)
Seriously, is anyone out there in geek land even considering MySQL for a brand spanking new project with no history attached to MySQL? I don't know of any. It's just a matter of time now for things to swing from MySQL to MariaDB, though I think a lot of geeks will take a good look at other options like PostgreSQL before switching. Unless Oracle does something really interesting with MySQL, it's dead... seriously... no one in the year 2120 will even remember MySQL except for unfortunate geeks working for the government and large banks who will continue doing new projects with MySQL until the end of time.
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If it's really dead like Cobol, I could spend the rest of my life doing nothing but supporting stuff using it, and make a pretty good career out of it.
That's a kind of death I can live with.
Re:MySQL is Dead! Just like Cobol (Score:4, Informative)
MySQL filled a niche for web application development, but not very much else. The large banks are all using old-school commercial databases: Oracle, DB2, Sybase, SQL Server. Government applications prefer PostgreSQL because of its permissive license. If they want to customize the source code for a project that isn't pubic, they can do that without having to worry about GPL compliance.
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I worked on one of those and man, it was hairy. In the end we pulled it off, but it was a close shave.
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In any large organization, guaranteeing that something you do will not get distributed outside of its original domain adds a compliance cost. The idea that compliance with a license is overhead that really does cost something has already been beaten into larger organization's heads by the terms of commercial software like Microsoft's, where audits and possible violations are a real cost of doing business.
Companies familiar with open source licenses know that if they touch GPL code but keep it private, they
Re:MySQL is Dead! Just like Cobol (Score:4, Insightful)
Many hosting packages have MySQL installed as default, almost all of them in fact, and web devs are unlikely to have any interest in moving. I mean what are they going to tell their clients, someone in a far away office unconnected to anything has decided that the DB system is outdated, so you have pay us to migrate your data? Oh, says the client, will it offer me any benefits or will my site stop working? Why no, says the web dev. Please.
Inertia means a lot, and MySQL has a LOT of inertia.
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There is nothing you tell the client. You dump the DB out of mysql and load it in maria.
Not like they are switching to something not compatible.
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Who's going to pay for this effort again?
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The customers, via their normal bill.
The servers have to be upgraded at some point, EOL and all. The service provider will at that point move to mariaDB and not even tell the customer.
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You clearly have no experience with web development. Most of the sites on the internet are in shared hosting packages, anything that gets less than a few hundred thousand hits a month. The only thing these sites are charged for are hosting and domain names. Anything that involves any kind of effort on the part of the developer gets charged for seperately. Hosting companies are quite capable of keeping the same software on new servers indefinetely.
Honestly I'm not seeing anyone flocking to the flag of the gu
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You are clearly full of it.
New servers will not run old versions of MySQL at some point. This means they will have to decide if they want to install new MySQL or MariaDB. That is when the latter will go into place since it is the redhat standard.
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Except Red Hat covers a grand total of 2.8% of the market and dropping rapidly. http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/os-redhat/all/all [w3techs.com]
I don't feel obligated in any way to support MariaDB. I don't see how any self respecting dev would, especially since the founder made himself richer than Croseus by selling MySQL.
So good luck with that.
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What do you think the majority of those unknown UNIX sites are running on?
Think really hard, now.
It is going to be RHEL, Centos or Debian. All of them will be on MariaDB fairly soon.
Having the webserver not report the OS is pretty simple to do.
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It's okay to lose.
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Usage statistics and market share of Linux for websites [w3techs.com]
using this page, RedHat + CentOS = 35.6% of websites using various subcategories of Linux. You should also include Scientific Linux, but it's only less than 0.1%.
Drilling down,
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I've worked for several government deparments and large banks.
IBM mainframe uses DB2, everything else uses Oracle. No exceptions (atleast as far as databases supporting SQL goes).
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Too big momentum to stop (Score:3)
Seriously, is anyone out there in geek land even considering MySQL for a brand spanking new project with no history attached to MySQL? I don't know of any. It's just a matter of time now for things to swing from MySQL to MariaDB, though I think a lot of geeks will take a good look at other options like PostgreSQL before switching. Unless Oracle does something really interesting with MySQL, it's dead... seriously... no one in the year 2120 will even remember MySQL except for unfortunate geeks working for the government and large banks who will continue doing new projects with MySQL until the end of time.
MySQL has too big of a momentum to just disappear (and the people keeping it alive are not governments and large banks, but rather web developers).
I'm a full-time web developer and I am just starting a new project and tossing a coin between MySQL and Postgresql. The reason why I am even considering MySQL is that all my existing code and libraries are thoroughly tested with it. Even brand spanking new projects use old libraries :)
In theory, database abstraction layer should be good enough to make everything
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Sometimes it's good to start fresh.. also, if you have good unit tests for your utilities then "testing" should be easy.. if you don't, then are they really well tested?
In theory, very true. In practice, it's an uneasy feeling of switching to a new tool, no matter what it is. Unit tests exist and are useful, but I still haven't mastered writing bug-free code despite all the testing :)
Every time I've had to use/touch MySQL, it has been extremely frustrating, and far more so than any other DB I've worked with (Firebird, Oracle, MS-SQL, DB2, SQLite, etc), with the exception of SQLite they've all been far more capable as well.
I don't doubt that's the case, but as usual with these things - you probably use MySQL the least and are least comfortable with it. In the last 5-6 years, I only ever deployed significant projects on top of MySQL or PostgreSQL, and while PGSQL was always more capable (and I personally enjoyed
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Yes.
Oracle Doesn't Care (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm pretty sure Oracle couldn't care less if RedHat uses MySQL or MariaDB since it doesn't benefit greatly from either. Oracle would much rather have everyone using Oracle DB since that is where they put most of their development and support efforts and that is what makes them their money. I don't think Oracle would even continue to offer MySQL support if they weren't ordered to do so under the conditions of their buyout of Sun.
Great in theory (Score:3)
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you might still check it out.
it's the same thing, with some new stuff / new stuff coming that you might need.
but "not worth my time" attitude is kinda strange since it takes no time at all to use it?
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That's why this announcement by Red Hat is so important, it means that RHEL/CentOS-based hosters are likely to make the switch to MariaDB when they upgrade their systems.
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Oracull (Score:2)
A company called Computer Associates used to be where formerly successful commercial apps went to die a slow, painful death.
Now Oracle is where OSS branches goes to die a slow, painful death.
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Not just OSS. Commercial products too. Oracle is pretty good at paying billion(s) for a company then alienating all its developers until the product is only a shell of what it used to be.
That's it for me (Score:2)
I've been looking for an excuse to make the switch. And this does it for me. I'll be switched by the end of the year.
Love MariaDB with only one complaint (Score:4, Informative)
But the fulltext indexing is not available to the default table engine. That is my one complaint.
I would be curious to know what the insider thinking is at Oracle. I suspect they thought they had the free database crowd by the balls. No doubt they had all kinds of interesting long term strategies to switch companies over from MySQL to overpriced Oracle products. Now those strategies are going to fade into nothingness.
I have to say (Score:2)
MariaBD is something of a lame name. Its gonna be harder to pitch/sell than the well named 'MySQL'..
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>businesses still use MSSQL server
No, they use Ingres.
--
BMO
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Except for the ones that use Oracle. Or any of the other databases out there.
"Business" is a pretty broad category using a very wide range of database products.
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Oracle sucks as well. It's just a different kind of suck. Sort of like the difference between a Geo Metro and a Ford Taurus. They both suck, just in different ways. (Did I get the car analogy right?)
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Oracle sucks as well. It's just a different kind of suck. Sort of like the difference between a Geo Metro and a Ford Taurus. They both suck, just in different ways. (Did I get the car analogy right?)
No, it's more like the difference between a Ford Transit and a Scania 18-wheeler.
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Red Hat might switch to MariaDB from MySQL, but businnesses still use MSSQL server.
MSSQL is an expensive turd.
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Yeah! Who needs machines that run for 40 years.
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DB2 runs on 32- and 64-bit Intel and AMD processors, POWER processors, and System Z processors. Please tell us which of those is 40 years old.
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DB2 runs on 32- and 64-bit Intel and AMD processors, POWER processors, and System Z processors. Please tell us which of those is 40 years old.
I run DB2 on 64-bit Intel. I pray that one day it will add the same level of import/export capabilities that come for free with both MySQL and PostgreSQL. Or at least that I can do a dump from an i5 system to the Intel system.
For that matter, I would be overjoyed if they'd just do like everyone else and add a create-from-select SQL option.
Re:Oracle Linux is identical to RHEL (Score:5, Insightful)
The main thing Oracle Linux does is run a newer kernel version than the RHEL kernel. RHEL6 for example is based on 2.6.32, while Oracle's Unbreakable Enterprise Kernel R.2 [oracle.com] (pdf) was running 3.0.16 when they last updated things.
Grabbing the newer kernel lets Oracle win direct performance shootouts against RedHat. They can get away with it because the only applications they're testing on it is Oracle, so if the upstream kernel breaks other things they don't care. RedHat cares about all of their supported software, so they have a lot more QA issues to deal with. Note that this little trick is also how Oracle has gotten around caring that RedHat made it harder to see what individual patches they apply to the upstream kernel in their release. They aren't using that version of kernel at all, so whatever RedHat is doing to customer their 2.6.32 branch they're ignoring.
Of course, if you're willing to do this, you can easily grab a newer Linux kernel from kernel.org yourself on regular RHEL, too. The game Oracle is playing with "Unbreakable Linux" is all marketing hype.
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Pretty much the only thing anybody run on it is oracle anyways. If your going to pay through the nose for support contracts you might as well have one place supporting the whole thing.to stop the finger pointing.
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Of course, if you're willing to do this, you can easily grab a newer Linux kernel from kernel.org yourself on regular RHEL, too.
Even better, install elrepo.repo and enable the elrepo-kernel repo and install the package 'kernel-ml'.
I just build a CentOS 6-based Xen server last weekend with kernel-ml and mayoung's xen packages, and it's a beautiful thing.
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I'd argue otherwise. Oracle submitted a boatload of bugs (performance & otherwise) to Redhat to make Oracle products run better. Redhat ignored most of them. Oracle forked red-hat & rolled their own. Isn't that the benefit of open source?
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Companies that throw submissions upstream and then fork if they're not all accepted are not very useful to me. RedHat has one set of rules about what sorts of changes they're willing to accept in a stable release, the Linux kernel developers have another. Oracle is content to fork both and make changes, with their own policy for what is and isn't acceptable. Some of the ignored submissions are due to those policy differences, others ignored because Oracle wasn't willing to work within the community devel
Re:3, 2, 1 (Score:4, Insightful)
This is a victory for Free Software as a whole. We can argue about ACID tests another day.
Congrats to the MariaDB team for making quality fork and fulfilling the dream of the GPL: that WHEN corporations try to buy/take our code we'll simply route around the damage.
Good job Gentlemen.
Re:3, 2, 1 (Score:4, Informative)
Re:3, 2, 1 (Score:5, Insightful)
You do realize that they were the ones who sold MySQL to Oracle in the first place, right ?
No. Open source people never sold MySQL to Oracle.
What happened is that Monty sold MySQL to Sun, with a clause that it must not be sold to Oracle.
Oracle then bought Sun.
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Which part of that is supposed to make people feel comfortable that MariaDB will still be around in a few years, after Monty gets an offer to buy that company? "Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results"
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Which part of that is supposed to make people feel comfortable that MariaDB will still be around in a few years, after Monty gets an offer to buy that company?
That you (or anyone) can fork it. Open source routes around this problem nicely.
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Open source doesn't remove the damage here, it just contains it. Look at how much effort is being wasted by people who are switching from MySQL to MariaDB now. All of that overhead is damage to an open source community that could have been working on other things with that time. If you're smart, instead you'll switch to a truly open database, one that doesn't have a company requiring copyright assignment involved at all.
MySQL was a reasonable choice back when PostgreSQL didn't have Windows support and pe
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There isn't any effort to migrate from MySQL to MariaDB. It's a drop-in replacement.
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The whole point of this article is that RedHat is putting effort into this switch. Individual users may not see it, but this mess is causing headaches for people who maintain and distribute open source software stacks. And incompatibilities for users are coming one day too, as soon as the feature set starts drifting between MySQL and MariaDB.
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And incompatibilities for users are coming one day too, as soon as the feature set starts drifting between MySQL and MariaDB.
If users have been using Oracle MySQL, yes, they may find incompatibilities when migrating to open source MariaDB. That's hardly the fault of the open source community, now is it?
I.e. if you chose to go to closed source Oracle MySQL, you have to pay the price. That seems reasonable enough.
Those who stayed with open source MySQL have no such problems.
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It would have been just about as much effort to "switch" to the latest version of MySQL as it was to "switch" to the latest version of MariaDB. They were going to do one or the other.
And incompatibilities for users are coming one day too, as soon as the feature set starts drifting between MySQL and MariaDB.
Probably so. Which makes this the ideal time to pick MariaDB, while it's zero-effort.
Re:3, 2, 1 (Score:4, Informative)
We haven't had any problem at all replacing MySQL with MariaDB in Fedora per se.
MySQL folks wanted to keep MySQL in Fedora *too*, and we had some fun figuring out the packaging and upgrade paths such that both new-world-MySQL and MariaDB could be in Fedora with MariaDB replacing old-world-MySQL on F18->F19 upgrades, but RHEL will very easily avoid all that by simply not including new-world-MySQL (I expect).
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Reality: When a vendor of an open source product drops it, 99 times out of 100, thats the end of the product. That 1 time left, is the MySQL example.
If that's the case, you shouldn't have any problems naming 99 open source projects that have gone closed source and subsequently been dropped so "thats the end of the product".
If you cannot provide any examples to back your claim, you're just mouthing off.
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So they get to keep doing what they were doing AND have a boatload of cash in the bank.
Re:3, 2, 1 (Score:5, Informative)
Here's the real solution: Don't sell it to a corporation in the first place like Monty did.
MySQL had already been owned by a corporation for more than a decade before Sun bought it. That corporation was "MySQL AB", incorporated in Sweden.
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Monty made some money for himself - why shouldn't he do this, particularly when the sale of the product would not have any material long term impact to the availability of the product.
Sun paid him off, and now he is doing the exact same thing, in open source, he gets to keep his money, and Oracle now has zero influence over this open source project.
Win, win, win, win(unless you are Oracle)!
Maybe he can do this every 10 years and buy a new boat. Good for him. It will also help get the message across that you
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Given that there are plenty of good alternatives, it seems that the real value in MySQL is the branding. Oracle could've bought any DB engine they wanted, but which open-source one has the most name recognition? Sometimes, "what's in a name" turns out to be "everything."
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Here's the real solution: Don't sell it to a corporation in the first place like Monty did.
That's easy for you to say, not being in Monty's shoes.
Selling it helped him pay alimony and child support for his daughter My [*], for which the database was named.
And it did not kill the open source - as per usual, it forked around it, and evolution continued.
[*]: Off-topic: Pronounced with a near-close near-front protruded vowel, which doesn't exist[**] in English. The closest approximation is "ee" said with the lips rounded like saying "oo". "Y" is a vowel in its own right in Swedish, and saying "Me
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Parents who give their children names that aren't pronouncable in major languages like English are bastards.
Nothing is pronounceable in English. You basically cannot import any non-English word from any other language and have it sound remotely the same. The set of available sounds is both small and weird.
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Do I even need to point out that this kind of thing hurts the perception of Open Source developers and by extension Open Source software? Then again, it's about time we have a term to replace the horribly racist "Indian Giver [wikipedia.org]" term. "MySQLGiver" maybe? "Open Source Giver"?
You're right. Such an egregious abuse could never happen with closed source software. *cough*Skype*cough*
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Why smear all the good people who've used and/or worked on MySQL over the years like that?
Say instead, "He's pulled a Widenius," and give credit where actually due.
Re:3, 2, 1 (Score:5, Funny)
February 30 (Score:3, Interesting)
Nah, Postgres sucks. Doesn't even have a decent REPAIR TABLE command or support for Februaries which have more than 29 days.
Funnily enought February 30 actually existed in specific situations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_30
Re:3, 2, 1 (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure, why not? MySQL is crap. MySQL is crap [arstechnica.com]. 10 years later, MySQL is still crap. MariaDB and Percona are less crap, but still crap.
Oracle is on-par with PostgreSQL, with some drawbacks, and you can argue and haggle--personally I think Oracle is inferior, but you'll get dissenters and they *are* in the same class. MS SQL Server is inferior--it's a good product in its space, but its space is a subset space of PostgreSQL. More to the point, Oracle and MS SQL Server are both closed, proprietary pay-ware; PostgreSQL, MySQL, DB2, and SQLite are free. That means the argument is essentially PostgreSQL vs MySQL.
PostgreSQL actually functions like a real database (MySQL does a lot of crap it shouldn't), outperforms MySQL, has working replication now (FINALLY, since around 8.0-ish, a few short years back), has BETTER replication than MySQL, and is about as easy to set up (I learned it in about 30 minutes). In general it's a better product as a database. Since it has no real drawbacks besides blunt protocol compatibility (i.e. a MySQL-specific app can't talk to PostgreSQL, either because of network presentation protocol (MySQL protocol 3306) or application protocol (MySQL-specific command language)) compared to MySQL, and many advantages, it's essentially a higher-quality and thus better piece of software.
Optimally, RedHat, Debian, Ubuntu, SuSE, etc should provide the best MySQL possible--Percona, MariaDB, whatever--while providing the guideline that PostgreSQL is a better product. Because, hell, they're already endorsing by dumping MySQL instead of simply including both Percona and MariaDB. The issue is that the political chip of saying, "X is better than Y," is very volatile. We could sit here and hash out merits and come to that exact conclusion--but even then, when we're all convinced that this is FACT and not OPINION, what do you think would happen if RedHat and Ubuntu both flatly said, "Use PostgreSQL, MySQL is crap"?
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If you buy web hosting from a cheap cpanel-based provider, you get MySQL for free and it's hard to set up anything else. Moreover, a moderately skilled web developer can get a database-driven site set up in just a couple of minutes with PHP+MySQL.
MySQL+PHP is popular for the same reason VB6 used to be popular. It's quick and easy and it gets stuff done. Elite computer scientists look down upon both because they are perceived as quick and dirty hacks. But that doesn't matter; for many applications, a quick a
Watch Pirates of Silicon Valley (Score:3)
towards the end, Steve says to Bill "Bill, our stuff is better." To which Gates replies "You just don't get it Steve" and walks away.
Better is not always better.
Postgres may be better, but it's "hard", whether because of a lack of mindshare, or because MySQL has a cuter name, or whatever reason - so people don't use it.
Because people don't use Postgres, people don't use Postgres.
Re:3, 2, 1 (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, why not? MySQL is crap. MySQL is crap [arstechnica.com]. 10 years later, MySQL is still crap. MariaDB and Percona are less crap, but still crap.
You must not be a sysadmin. Everything is crap, and the job is to find out what oozes least amount of crappiness for the job at hand.
In some cases, that is MySQL (or now MariaDB). Despite being crap.
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RH isn't really in the business of telling people what database to use. We provide all the major ones, including pgsql. You can pick whichever you want to run.
EnterpriseDB Oracle Compatibility (Score:2)
For entertainment value, RedHat ought to buy EnterpriseDB, open the source code for the Oracle compatibility layer, then shove free PL/SQL compatibility for Postgres into Oracle Linux.
I'm sure that's why Oracle hasn't bought out EnterpriseDB - the moment they tried, the source would start flowing.
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But if Oracle require special performance tuning which none of the other databases does, then it does suck in 90+ percent of all usecases for sql servers(That is: The usecases where there is no fulltime person hired just to tune the database).
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But if Oracle require special performance tuning which none of the other databases does, then it does suck in 90+ percent of all usecases for sql servers(That is: The usecases where there is no fulltime person hired just to tune the database).
This is very true. I work on many different projects and move from company to company setting up web applications, usually for in-house use - well, after I'm finished, I don't have time to constantly come back and re-tune the database, nor would the company want me to do that and keep paying for an application that is essentially "completed". Also, hiring a full-time database tuner would be ridiculous for all of the cases I've been involved in (monetarily crazy and otherwise). Some places using MySQL for m
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When you get to the point that Oracle requires 'special tuning', you're so far beyond what MySQL is useful for its not even funny.
When you start 'tuning' Oracle, MySQL isnt an option because you're tuning features MySQL doesn't have.
You also can afford a full time Oracle DB or 20 because we're not talking about a tiny ass db used for your one sale a week shopping cart and mediawiki clone.
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At least it isn't called EvanDB.
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You know that MySQL and MariaDB both start with M, right?
Did you really go to college?
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Might want to be careful with throwing "troll" around, if you're going to miss/ignore rather important things like Maria being a drop-in replacement for MySQL, so nothing you learned about LAMP is lost by this change.
But what the hell university teaches LAMP anyway? UoP?
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what real college teaches "lamp".
the same kind that has "ford engines" as a course on their machinery side?
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Stop it, you'll set Joe_Dragon off.
Re:think I can petition my college to.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Teaching you LAMP?
Teaching any programs is foolish, they should teach that you need an OS, a webserver, a db and a language for your site. Knowing the basics will let you easily work on many stacks.
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Sure, send me a copy so I can replace LAMP with COBOL and JCL.
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What's wrong with LynxOS/AOLserver/MariaDB/Perl?
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Well, considering that AOLserver gives you TCL for free, adding Perl seems like a bit of an impedance mismatch. Aside from that, nothing.
(Note, I only know this because I was the Debian TCL maintainer for several years; which is why I know that AOLServer is A) free software and B) written in TCL. Otherwise, I would have assumed you were joking.)
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I recently upgraded to MariaDB. Took a whole of 5 minutes with just a few seconds downtime (just ~3GB of data, though); nothing changed except I occasionally see a different name in logfiles and tools.
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I thought IBM owned DB2?
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Yes, and IBM also originally wrote Postfix. Of course, using Postfix with Postgres is easy: http://www.postfix.org/PGSQL_README.html [postfix.org]. Or apt-get install postfix-pgsql. I can't address whether than includes support for "hashes and Btrees", since I haven't tried, but seems implausible that it wouldn't. Postfix has been developed as open-source for a long time! OP does seem remarkably confused. But I'm not completely sure whether he's simply blaming the wrong company, or just plain wrong. I suspect the latter
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Uhm, my copy doesn't have 'db2' in it. Never has to my knowledge. I know db2 doesn't run on half the platforms postfix supports.
Postfix does use berkley db, perhaps you think just because it has db in its name that its the same?
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