Debian On the Openmoko Neo FreeRunner Phone 167
BrianWCarver writes "It was inevitable. One can now run the entire Debian distribution (ARM port) on the Openmoko Neo Freerunner. We previously discussed the July 4th launch of this GNU/Linux-based smartphone, which is open down to its core, with the company providing CAD files and schematics for the phone. Openmoko released an update to their software stack earlier this month, called Om2008.8, which is still a work in progress. But now one can use these instructions on the Debian wiki to open up the possibility of using apt-get to access Debian's more than 20,000 applications on your phone, which, due to integration with freesmartphone.org efforts, can also actually be used as a phone. There were previous efforts to run Debian on the predecessor product to the Neo FreeRunner, the Neo 1973, but with the wider adoption of the Neo FreeRunner and the hard work of many Debian developers at the ongoing DebConf 8, carrying Debian in your pocket has just gotten a lot easier."
Great (Score:4, Funny)
Debian's more than 20,000 applications on your phone, which, due to integration with freesmartphone.org efforts, can also actually be used as a phone...
You're saying that I can install debian on my computer and use it as a phone? The computer weighs about 15kg already. I just need to add a truck battery (another 20kg I guess) and a small array of solar cells (another 180kg). I will then have an utra-portable cell phone! And, it weighs in at only 215kg!
Re:Great (Score:5, Funny)
There we hae it ladies and gentleman. After years, I think we can say we have found the person with the least understanding of the article and summary.
RTFA? This guy obviously didn't even read the TITLE fully. In fact, given his laughably silly comment, it very well may be that he only read the first word of the title and had some objection with "Debian" and portability.
May I present the new standard setter for Slashdot cluelessness, the man who didn't even RTFT!
Re:Great (Score:5, Funny)
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While we are at it, you deserve a whoosh! award.
Someone got whooshed, certainly. Not, however, the person whom you thought.
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Wrong again.
GP and GPP got wooshed, Only GPP is funny. Oh, and who said, that GP is not funny? In that case you got wooshed.
But what if.. oh god... if you're funny too? Then i will be wooshed too.
Thank god, that I'm funny too. :D
P.S.: Does someone know a replacement for "thank god", that does not include imaginary beings?
Re:Great (Score:4, Funny)
I lagged behind, thought it was just another deadline.
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I agree, it's so loud you can SEE it!!!
Can it reliably make phone calls yet? (Score:5, Insightful)
Last I checked, the dialer and address book applications weren't done yet. While it's great that it can do shit like compiling code and whatnot, it's not gonna do me -- as a person who, although a fan of Free Software, doesn't plan on doing OpenMoko development -- any good until it can make phone calls!
Re:Can it reliably make phone calls yet? (Score:4, Informative)
Can you hand dial it? (Score:2)
For the trouble, I'm willing to hand dial to get debian in my pocket.
Besides, the phone functions will come, even if you insist on being a drag.
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Yes, and I'm eagerly awaiting that day so that I can finally buy the damn thing.
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Thanks.
but (Score:2, Funny)
but does it run.. oh, wait, yes it does.
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Great (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6c0eVdj4E7w [youtube.com]
...and run Debian on it too! "Hold on honey, just one more minute...or so...and we'll be running XTerm. It'll be cool!"
On a more serious note, I do happen to love this. You can't expect a geek to know how to do a debian install *and* grasp things like interface design or usability, but nothing's stopping somebody with the skills from building on that foundation.
So plug a headset into your ASUS eeePC. (Score:2)
Simple, huh?
Okay, you'll also need a USB phone modem, and that may be hard to find drivers for. Or maybe you can be satisfied with finding WIFI hotspots to call from.
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I have an Embeddedarm ts7260 running at 200mhz that boots into busybox/debian bash shell in 1.3 seconds. From power on to telnet or a serial port terminal, that's 1.3 seoncs to a bash prompt. I can chroot into a full debian glibc in a second. It all depends on the optimized code.
Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Interesting)
Somebody help me out here. I get that the OpenMoko has great potential as a learning tool - that's unquestionable, and I applaud their efforts. But I'm really struggling to understand whether there is any use for this outside of the learning context.
In terms of platform, Symbian is on its way to being open-sourced, and Android is supposed to be F/OSS as well. I don't think LiMo is going anywhere, but it has the same virtues of openness. And if you care more about open development environments than license types, Windows Mobile already has a huge and growing smartphone applications ecosystem. On top of that, there are also easy ways into developing for the RIM, Palm and iPhone platforms.
In terms of hardware, this device seems to be lacking even a workable data connection - GPRS is tunneled packet data over channelized voice so you're looking at best case speeds of a 1994 modem (9.6 kbps or so). So broadband apps are out, as is useful e-mail/calendar syncing - at least over the GSM networks. It's also more expensive than the carrier-subsidized devices that everyone likes to complain about how overpriced they are with subsidies ...
So this isn't a rhetorical question, it's a serious one. Other than for folks who just want to learn about the guts of GSM and mobile devices, who would get a practical benefit from buying this phone vs. a Nokia/Symbian, HTC/Android or any other devices from the WinMo, Palm or iPhone families?
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Informative)
The answer is that OpenMoko predates all those things.
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The answer is that OpenMoko predates all those things.
So? Just because it's first doesn't mean it's any good.
I guess maybe that Openmoko is great for leading the whole Open Source Smartphone movement, but Android actually has backing and is usable out of the box. Once you unleash Android, there's no turning back and Openmoko will be a useless anachronism, that is, unless they have a plan to compete with Android (step 1: Make it so that you can actually use it as a phone without a bunch of complex incantations and rituals).
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Informative)
Devices that run Android don't even exist yet. How can you possibly claim it will be usable out of the box?
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He installed it on the OpenMoko
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It's not real until normal people can buy it.
(Besides, it's T-Mobile -- Android's not gonna do me any good until I can get one for AT&T.)
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Android is Linux based too. I'm sure it'll be possible to use it on the OpenMoko if you want.
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Symbian goes back to the late nineties.
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I meant that OpenMoko predates the freeing of Symbian.
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openmoko is the only one that is not currently vaporware.
There is a sdk called android, and a promise to open source symbian (anyone know the licence?).
The only phone and software stack where you can actually make any changes is openmoko, we need to wait till the first devices come out and for google to decide before android is open source and who knows how many months/years till simbian is open.
It does have 2.5g (edge) so it should be fast enough for some internet even if it isn't as fast as 3g.
The extra s
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Are you sure it has EDGE? I can't see any reference to it on their wiki:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware [openmoko.org]
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Informative)
I have high hopes for OpenMoko - if they can release a HSPDA phone in a year or two with a bigger screen then I'll definitely buy one.
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It's better these days - I have a friend who roams onto GPRS occasionally and gets 10-15 kB/s. Not sure about the latency. And yes, I have a FreeRunner, but GPRS setup isn't automated yet (you have to turn off the phone/sms daemon) so I haven't tested it yet.
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Have to have a phone anyway? (Score:2)
That's not what _I_ thought he meant by plugging in a 3G modem, etc.
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I've not seen a 3G USB modem that's smaller than a phone. I've not seen a Bluetooth 3G modem that isn't a phone. My existing phone can already act as a Bluetooth 3G modem (I get around 50KB/s with 200ms ping times, which isn't horrendous), and I use it with my 770 when I'm mobile. He's either suggesting I should use my phone and a Freerunner, or throw away my phone, get something that does the same thing (or less), and use that along with a Freerunner.
I really hope the next generation skips straight t
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Interesting)
If that doesn't matter to you, it probably isn't the phone for you. Others are more mature, and offer greater economies of scale. If you do want Freedom on the handset, the OpenMoko is it.
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If that doesn't matter to you, it probably isn't the phone for you. Others are more mature, and offer greater economies of scale. If you do want Freedom on the handset, the OpenMoko is it.
Fair enough, that is a reasonable rationale.
The reason that I asked the GGP question is that I don't see what the value is to "Joe Mobile Phone User." My personal belief is that mobile devices are one area where simplicity trumps openness/configurability for the everyday user.
My personal $.02 is that mobile devices (potentially excluding the iPhone) have been Exhibit A in the case against software developers understanding the value of usability. Nearly everyone - from RIM and Palm to WinMo and LiMo - develo
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:4, Interesting)
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However, I would argue that Joe(and everybody else) benefits from the availability of an open phone, and would benefit from having one themselves, once an adequate interface is finished. On the PC side, most people aren't devs, or even geeks, and need their software nice and simple. The fact that devs and geeks can build whatever th
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Pretty simple: The Openmoko is the closest thing to a "PC" of the phone world that you can get.
That doesn't actually sound like a good thing. It sounds like something to avoid.
Re:Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:5, Insightful)
Then you're missing his point.
The great thing about PCs is that they're open, you have full control over what software you run on it and you can do whatever you like with it.
Traditionally, phones have been excessively locked down.
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Sounds like you have a shit phone. I'm don't see how that makes the Openmoko any good. From what it looks like, it barely works at all. Most people wouldn't accept the experience you are having with your Sony-Ericcson, let alone something worse.
Why the hell are you putting up with a dud phone, anyway?
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Btw.: have you ever seen an PC with ARM processor in it?
I have. They were called RISC-PCs, and they were great.
LiMo (Score:2)
Supposedly, my phone is LiMo. But I have yet to find out how to confirm it.
Supposedly, some people can develop new apps for it. (Like a decent calculator or stopwatch?) But I haven't even been able to find a place to download apps someone else built. And if I could, would I trust the apps, when I can't compile the code?
I can't even use the stupid phone as a modem. It can be plugged into a MSWindows PC through USB, but the USB doesn't, from what all the sales crew tell me, even pass the expansion flash card
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LiMo is "open" in the sense that whoever made the phone saved some money on OS licensing. Doesn't it just make you feel warm and fuzzy?
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even with jailbreak the iphone is still more locked down than windows mobile.
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I have a Freerunner with the hope that I'll be able to use it as a learning device. Right now I've got the Om2008.8 installed and it's barely usable.
I'm hoping Openmoko will be able to keep up a quick development pace. Since switching away from GTK and moving to Qtopia over X11 and Englightenment they've really come a long way. I have doubts that the Openmoko software will be stable and reliable any time soon, but hopefully a developer community will grow out of all the new Freerunner customers.
Another p
CE development without Visual Studio? (Score:2)
And if you care more about open development environments than license types, Windows Mobile already has a huge and growing smartphone applications ecosystem.
But can I develop apps for PDAs and phones running Windows Mobile without having to buy a copy of Visual Studio? Microsoft leaves the Windows Mobile SDK out of the Express version.
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Right, but...? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Right, but...? (Score:4, Informative)
http://www.joachim-breitner.de/blog/archives/297-guid.html [joachim-breitner.de]
The hardware
It was smaller than I thought, and is quite light. My girlfriend says it's ugly, but I'm fine with the look of it. Besides being a GSM-phone, it comes with some nice gimmics: GPS, accelerometer, WLAN. The touchscreen works fine, although I don't have anything to compare it with.
The software
The system it comes with, even after upgrading, is still very rough. It mostly works for doing phone calls and SMSs, but there are a number of unsolved quirks that prevent me from using the Freerunner as my sole phone for now. The suspend mode is left too often, resulting in a battery life of about eight hours, and there are issues with the audio for the conversation partners, who will hear static and echoes. But, as this is free software, there is hope that this will be fixed eventually
It's ok if you bring a Lauterbach and a laptop with you when you carry it. And TALK LOUDLY to make sure people can here you over the static and echoes. Echoes. echoes. ec...
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Re:Right, but...? (Score:4, Funny)
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``However... what is it really good for? A phone? Because it really looks like the typical "you can run Linux on it" thingie: you spend 95% of your time tinkering with it and the remaining 5% using it... if you're lucky.''
Not the way I see it. To be completely honest, that used to be the way I used Linux on my PC. Perhaps it used to be the way anyone used Linux on their PC. But it's not like that anymore. Nowadays, I use Debian, because:
1. It costs me less time in maintenance than any other operating system
Can you still buy it direct? (Score:2)
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There is a group purchase just made in Australia that has a few spare - see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Group_Sales_Australia [openmoko.org] and subscribe to the mailing list.
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Re: Great learning tool. But what else? (Score:3, Interesting)
Everything starts this way.
> Symbian is on its way to being open-sourced
So is Java. Has been for ten years now. Wake me when it happens.
(To be fair, Java *has* made real progress in this area, but it was not as smooth or fast as anyone thought it would be - to the point that it got to the very brink or obsolescence a couple of times)
> Android is supposed to be F/OSS as well
Except, compiled against non-standard libraries. Which, in practice, is the only thing that stops it being used, as a software platform, by the OpenMoko itself, right now (and in principal, even this could be overcome, depending on exactly what form the Android codebase ultimately takes)
> Windows Mobile already has a huge and growing smartphone applications ecosystem. On top of that, there are also easy ways into developing for the RIM, Palm and iPhone platforms.
Yeah, if you want apps specifically for a phone. If you want to compile a current desktop application and use it on your phone, or even the other way around (maybe you really like your calendar/contacts application), well, none of those platforms really allow for that. It's not an Achillie's Heel (yet), but it is a weakness (from the point of view of a developer, mostly, but still).
> In terms of hardware, this device seems to be lacking even a workable data connection - GPRS is tunneled packet data over channelized voice so you're looking at best case speeds of a 1994 modem (9.6 kbps or so). So broadband apps are out, as is useful e-mail/calendar syncing - at least over the GSM networks.
You have WiFi and Bluetooth if you can use it, GPRS as an emergency fallback. It's a phone, not a mobile contact manager. The distinction has been blurred, but primarily, it's a mini computer that can also make phone calls. It also has USB, so there's the possibility of a HSDPA adapter working if you want. If you *must have* built-in world-wide location-independent high-bandwidth wireless data communication... then yeah, this might not be for you. The next revision might be, but this is version 1.0. Don't you know what they say about 1.0 software? It's never as good, in quality terms, as the idea behind it. But it will be, if it makes it to a few versions beyond that.
> It's also more expensive than the carrier-subsidized devices that everyone likes to complain about how overpriced they are with subsidies ...
Carriers will never subsidize a truly open phone. They lose the ability to lock the phone to their network, to extract premiums from DRM'd software/music sales, etc. Any truly open phone will have to succeed on its own merits, because people will have to want to buy the phone at whatever price. One great way to do that is make it do non-phone things as well, so the phone portion of your purchase price is smaller (except, this only works if you *want* the non-phone portion of the phone - think cameras or mp3 players). Think of it more as a micro-form-factor sub-notebook, with a GSM module, making it a practical phone. Common folks don't want their phone to be a computer (heck, they often explicitly refuse to accept it), but that's okay - it's not for them. If, and only if, it is successful enough, then either economies of scale will bring it to the masses at a price they will accept, or clones/imitators will persuade them to embrace this kind of phone.
> So this isn't a rhetorical question, it's a serious one. Other than for folks who just want to learn about the guts of GSM and mobile devices, who would get a practical benefit from buying this phone vs. a Nokia/Symbian, HTC/Android or any other devices from the WinMo, Palm or iPhone families?
I want Open, no matter the cost. I want to be able to open it, dismantle it, reconfigure it, alter it, change it (not necessarily *do* and of those things; just be able to). That's why I got one.
What other phone do you know of where you can buy a debug board for it from the same store that sells the phone - the same board that the phones' engineers used to develop it?
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I want Open, no matter the cost. I want to be able to open it, dismantle it, reconfigure it, alter it, change it (not necessarily *do* and of those things; just be able to). That's why I got one.
You know, I can understand and respect his attitude. I can also tell you that 99.9% of the population doesn't care. I realize that you don't care what the rest of the population thinks, but sadly what they think impacts the bottom line. The FOSS model works (where it does work, which is certainly not everywhere) because the cost of entry into software creation is essentially zero. It costs nothing but time, and hobbyist have time. It's what makes them hobbyists.
This is a real physical device with real
But is it a phone worth having? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been saying this about my laptop for years, but I guess now it's time to say it about my phone as well.
The phone I use is small, sleek, looks and works great, and does everythin I need it to. It makes phone calls, does SMS messaging great, and I can sync it with my laptop so all my contacts are updated, always. It also has the nice benefit of having a unix core, dpkg, apt, and a slew of unix utilities. It has a terminal with SSH and telnet, I can mount it as a volume over the network, and it plays music too. Even making ringtones for it is as simple as encoding them as AAC.
So they have Debian on a phone. Great. But just like Debian on desktops, I have to ask myself why anyone but RF geeks would ever care.
My phone, like my computers, are for getting things done. Call me when this thing is useful and usable.
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Yeah, iPhones are cool - *if* they are jailbroken (Score:4, Insightful)
...I've got one too. And until I jailbroke it, it couldn't ssh, it didn't sync very well, I couldn't install any unix apps...
If you keep the iphone firmware intact, it is just frustrating to know that there is this awesome bsd-based smartphone that stores basically everything in little sqlite databases - THAT YOU CAN'T USE!
I love the functionality of my hacked iPhone, but Apple's attitude with the appstore has really underscored the need for free software to me.
I have decided to no longer purchase apple products or services as a result of my experience with the iPhone (been a Mac user ever since they rolled out OS X).
An openmoko freerunner is definitely on "to buy" list - not because I expect it to be super-functional out of the box, but because I want to (financially) support the concept.
I'm sick of being unreasonably prevented from using the full capability of products I purchase.
If you're happy with one company being in charge of what software you can run on your phone, what network ports you can connect to, what access you have to backup your own personal information...then by all means, stick with the iphone. Good luck with that. I've been burned one too many times by vendor lock-in I guess.
Just my $.02
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Way to mention what phone it is that you have...
Does it really matter? If the grandparent have said he has, say, an iPhone it would not have made his point any better, but rather it would have turned the thread into a iPhone sucks - iPhone rocks flamewar.
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More links (Score:2)
Could you have put any more links in the summary?
Open down to its core?? (Score:2, Insightful)
We previously discussed the July 4th launch of this GNU/Linux-based smartphone, which is open down to its core, with the company providing CAD files and schematics for the phone.
I don't think so. Provide all the CAD drawings you like, but companies still own the designs and patents for the processors and other chips used to assemble the phone. Providing a CAD drawing of the assembly doesn't give you the ability or legal right to reproduce those chips. So how can the hardware be considered open or "free" to the core? That's marketing bullshit, not truth.
One would think the "core" of phone hardware would be you know, the actual units that do the work, not their arrangement on a circu
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Indeed. What I can't wrap my head around is how the FSF crowd has such a strong religious belief that software should be Free and not be subject to patents, etc, but they seem to be perfectly fine with patents and lack of freedom in so many other areas. It's hypocritical. If they care so much about freedom, shouldn't all the hardware they run also be made by the community under open licenses?
You can see how irrational and religious they get, when simply pointing out that the hardware isn't totally free resu
Re:Open down to its core?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Totally Free hardware is an ideal, but it's not feasible at the moment. If you want to go over to OpenCores and start designing a HSPDA chip, then that would be really great. I'm sure the OpenMoko people would love to use it in the next generation, assuming that they can find someone who will fab it cheaply and pay for getting it certified.
The reason people care more about software being free than hardware is twofold:
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Totally Free hardware is an ideal, but it's not feasible at the moment.
Neither is totally Free software. But that doesn't stop the FSF bitching about people who choose to use proprietary software. Also, what's infeasible about totally Free hardware? Sure, you might not get a Free Intel Core Duo - but you could make something more limited. Exactly the same as it is with Free Software. but for some reason, the FSF proponents aren't willing to put up with inferior hardware, even as they evangelize inferior software.
If the software is free then you are not locked in to one hardware platform. If you don't like the hardware you can replace it easily and still access the same applications and data.
Easily? I guess that depends on how much money one has. And what
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What are you, stupid? Do you not understand that chip fabs are slightly less accessible to normal individuals than compilers are?
Yeah, more limited like an abacus! Even a fucking four-function calculator requires millions of dollars worth of equipment to manufacture the integrated circuits, LCD screen, etc.
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What are you, stupid? Do you not understand that chip fabs are slightly less accessible to normal individuals than compilers are?
So, use transistors then. This just shows the hypocrisy of saying free software should be used, even if it less functional or advanced - and then making excuses when it comes to the hardware side of things, because what the community can build is less functional than what's available off-the-shelf. If they were really committed to this freedom, they'd insist upon rejecting the modern corporate-made chips.
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If you used individual transistors, you'd barely be able to fit a single ALU in the space occupied by the entire case of a modern mini-tower PC. Your "computer" would fill up a large room, consume megawatts of electricity, cost millions of dollars, have a clock frequency measured in the tens or hundreds of hertz, and have the same capabilities as that same four-function calculator that I mentioned before.
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My rant (Score:2)
I use my phone a lot. It's a Motorola A1200 Linux (locked with DRM) smart phone and it is generations ahead of the OpenMoko.
I take pictures and videos a lot, listen to music on the radio, web browse with the opera client, make calls over a bluetooth headset, use the voice recognition software to phone people in my address book using only the bluetooth headset, check my gmail account and I have even telnet'd into the nethack server and watched people play (because I can).
I use almost all the features of my p
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PS: Please don't respond with one liners and/or comments about how "free" this phone is, you're missing the point. It's a phone.
Actually, I think you are missing the point. I don't see the Freerunner as a product, I see it as a proof-of-concept. The best outcome for the OpenMoko project is similar to that for OLPC - have other manufacturers take their designs and build improved versions. Right now, Apple, Nokia, and all of their competitors spend a lot of money developing their hardware and software. This is exactly the situation that the personal computer market was in in the early '80s. Then systems like CP/M and DOS started
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Umm, Debian on the Neo1973 is working just fine (Score:3, Interesting)
I currently run Debian on my Openmoko Neo1973. The summary implies that it doesn't work, but it absolutely does. I run xfce, with compositing turned on, and it works fine. The pkg-fso is the bit that gets the whole freesmartphone.org stack integrated with debian, so you can use it as a phone.
FSO is the stack that I ran on my phone pre-debian, and it was plenty stable as a phone. The only issues the phone /really/ has are that the other party gets echo sometimes, and yeah GPRS is less great than 3G/EDGE.
But I'll take a phone that's open source any day. Seriously, this is the wearable computer I've always wanted. Couple it with a bluetooth keyboard and just get happy already. I've run at least four different distributions on the phone so far, and it just feels like computers used to.
-Josh
Getting a Carrier Account? (Score:3, Interesting)
How do I get an account with a mobile carrier in the US, so this device can actually connect to a wireless phone network and actually make calls?
Is every carrier going to charge me some ripoff fee for an account because I didn't buy my phone from them? Or maybe this unlocked phone will finally let me buy an account with multiple carriers, so I don't get ripped off when "roaming" that does the exact same thing.
When will the US let me choose my mobile phone carrier the way I choose my PC's ISP?
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well we are talking about Debian here.
Re:Neo 1973? (Score:4, Informative)
(I think you're being funny here, but for the record) 1973 was the year of the first call on a mobile phone.
Re:Neo 1973? (Score:4, Informative)
No it wasn't... the first (cellular) call of a mobile phone would have been somewhere in the mid-60's...
The first "mobile" phone call, was probably in the early 1900's, using radio, however it was limited to a few channels, but could be linked into an actual phone network, albeit cumbersome and annoying, with middle-men.
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No it wasn't... the first (cellular) call of a mobile phone would have been somewhere in the mid-60's...
The first "mobile" phone call, was probably in the early 1900's, using radio, however it was limited to a few channels, but could be linked into an actual phone network, albeit cumbersome and annoying, with middle-men.
Well, ship to shore phones were used in cars in at least in the 70's; a friend's 928 had one. It was pretty cool to see the looks on people's faces when you made a call from the car. It used an operator to do the connect.
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Isn't that a good thing? I don't know about you, but I have rarely seen the need to take the spur of the moment photo.
Plus, lighter the mobile stack is, the more reliable it gets. I can give examples of my current phone where turning on the camera almost always causes the phone to crash.
Can't carry a camera onto the premises (Score:2)
No camera.
This means you're allowed to carry it at work, in the lobby of a movie theater, or in other places that may forbid cameras.
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One you can buy today, one is a possible future offering from Google, T-Mobile and HTC.
One you can buy, and use on any GSM network, one is tied to a particular network, just like the iPhone.
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Right. I don't see offerings of any other Android phones on the way.
Re: (Score:2, Informative)