Why Buy a PC Preloaded With Linux? 518
Shadow7789 writes "I have been in the market for a new computer for the past few weeks and I know that I want to run Linux on it. However, every time I look at (for example) Dell's computers that are preloaded with Linux, the question pops into my head: 'Why should I buy a PC preloaded with Linux?' They are more expensive, and it's not hard just to reformat the PC with Linux. I hate paying the Microsoft Tax as much as anybody else, but if paying that 'tax' allows companies to reduce my price by bundling with my PC products that I will never use, why wouldn't I just buy a Windows-loaded PC and reformat?"
Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Interesting)
This doesn't mean they'll run off and hold a shareholder's meeting about it, but next time one of them is in a meeting and hears "No one wants the Lx version" they'll know better.
Baby steps.
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Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't think it really matters that you were with HP. I think a couple of things were in my favor when I got my refund from Dell:
Be persistent, be firm, and be nice -- realize that the customer representative is just a regular Joe/Jane, like you.
Also, for those who don't read the previously posted article [linux.com], remember that the point is not to get your money back; the point is to respectfully decline the MS Tax, and let them know your doing it.
N.B. It took me about a total of two hours on the phone.
Obligatory... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Eh? And what message am I trying to send? To be clear, I'm not trying to say "I want Linux." I want choice. The message I want to send is "I want the hardware for the standard price, and I don't want other gobblety-gook rammed down my throat for it."
I am honest: I do not want to pay for something I will not use. I will use the hardware. I will not use the forced-to-buy software. Getting a refund for what I'm not using seems to send exactly the message I want to send. And, it helps the wallet.
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Not true. Everytime you buy a product, you are "voting" for it. Refusing to buy a product is voting against that product. In capitalism, the product with enough "votes" to pay the bills, wins. The ones that don't, go away.
An example: I don't buy Sony products, hardware, games, music CDs, etc. Even if they are the best or have the best price, it doesn't matter. Part of this is to "send a signal". I don't wear anti-Sony shirts or really even talk about it (excepting this post). I just refuse to buy any of their products since the root scandal. That *is* me quietly voting against them, thus for their competition. My goal isn't to put them out of business, it is simply to *not* contribute toward their success. They forfeited any possibility of getting my votes (dollars) in the future, regardless of what you or anyone else does.
Seriously, what other methods do people have to voice discontent against a company? Letter writing? Voting with your dollars *is* democracy in action, as it is the only way to send a signal with the most important commodity in the capitalist world: money
HP, Dell offer poor options (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Funny)
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I just installed Xubuntu (hardy) over an existing Windows install yesterday. Took under 30 minutes (using the text installer). And this is on an old P3 Thinkpad T21.
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To get to that point the companies that are offering Linux need customers.
Your tactic looks like Anti-Microsoft tactic. But it really isn't since so few people will ever do it to make any difference.
Buying a Dell with Linux is a much better Pro-Linux move.
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http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=19&l=en&oc=DNDCPA2&s=dhs [dell.com]
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=dncwpl1&c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&kc=segtopic~linux_3x [dell.com]
of course the windows configuration has a lot more options and I still haven't been able to read off of the media card slot. (so much for
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:4, Interesting)
If you specifically order the Linux model you know that whatever hardware they put in the box will work with Linux.
If you order the Windows model you know that whatever hardware they put in the box will work with Windows, but you might get the one motherboard out of three that doesn't like Linux so much.
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
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Will updating/upgrading the pre-installed Linux break the tweaks?
I typically reload a computer at least once in it's lifetime, some computers many times. If I can not keep the tweaks between installs/upgrades, then I would rather not have them in the first place. That really just teases me.
Also, Linux is way further along than it was back in the early 90's. Lately, I have had very little problem finding dr
laptops yes to maybe, pc's and servers no (Score:5, Insightful)
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However, the grandparent simply said Intel 64bit. If he was using Core 2 Duos, then, he purchased intel brand CPUs. They are 64bit. QED, he was right and you were pedantic and not funny.
Re:laptops yes to maybe, pc's and servers no (Score:5, Insightful)
And I think thats really what pre-installed Linux is about. It's not for experienced Gentoo users who have no issue tweaking and who know what hardware is well supported. It's for people who have heard a lot about this "Linux" thing lately and what to give it a try.
With a pre-installed machine you are getting hardware which has been chosen for you and is known to work well with Linux. You are also getting a certain amount of "polish". Chances are the media buttons on your keyboard/case will do something sensible right out of the box, your video capture card will work without any configuring, etc..
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:4, Informative)
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It's written in APL?
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When Dell started to release Servers Preloaded with Linux we baught one with a second eathernet card (nothing to crazy for a server configuration) however while Linux supported both eathernet cards it didn't seem to support both cards at once. We had pleanty of experience in configuring Linux systems with duel eathernet cards. But there was some chipset or hardware design that Linux drivers didn't support 100% that allowed duel cards to work at the time.
We argryly returned it and demmanded a
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It's taking a software update that renders a machine you are relying upon hors de combat until you fix it. Wifi issues are particularly vexing, because you'll need another machine from which to pray to Google, or at least a real Ethernet jack.
Of course, you shouldn't do any updates when you are on a tight deadline, but you don't always know when you'll be in a hurry in advance.
For years, I had good experiences when running Linux on ThinkPads. Then I got cheap and bought a Tos
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:4, Insightful)
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integrated video chipsets
Never, ever had a problem getting those to work. Worst case, I don't get hardware acceleration, but then, if it's not at least an Intel chip of some kind, how much acceleration is there, really?
NICs and wlan cards
A year ago, I'd agree with you. Maybe even six months ago. But now, there's a very high probability of "just working".
webcams
Last time I tried a webcam, my roommate plugged it into his XP laptop, and had to install a ton of crapware that came with it -- and it ended up having a horrible green tint. Plugged it into my des
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:4, Insightful)
A computer is good for one thing and one thing only: runnig an operating system.
An operating system is good for one thing and one thing only: Running programs.
Of course, with a computer you want to avoid vertain things as well, such as viruses, spyware, etc.
Car analogy: you may like convertables, but if you live in North Canada one is pretty much a waste of money. If you live in Florida a four wheel drive is likeways a waste. If you run Linux and buy a Logitech wireless keyboard, the extras like the media control buttons aren't going to work. I've sworn of Logotech for just that reason; the morons only support Microsoft (as I found out after buying Logitech - never again!). I have no use for a company whose hardware won't support my OS.
So the GP hhas it right. If it comes preinstalled with Linux, you know it and any accessories that come with it will work.
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More than some MS-users can expect
'The Microsoft wireless keyboard or wireless mouse does not respond as expected', (MS Help and Support [microsoft.com])
CC.
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This is the kind of 10 years out of date FUD that I was alluding to one
of my previous posts... not that this was necessarily true even 10 years
ago.
It's kind of like that SouthPark "I am a Mac/I am a PC" spoof...
My favorite game is Super Smash Bros, I do edit video and I do create spreadsheets.
Modern Linux will boot from the CD and be ready to surf the web.
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:5, Funny)
2008 hasn't failed to become the year of Linux on the desktop yet.
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with is the historically piss-poor hardware support in x86
Solaris. So that would be an obvious thing for a Linux user to
knock Solaris for.
Given all the recent hype about the "new and improved" version
of Solaris x86 you would have thought they would have improved
this end of things.
It just shows that Sun still doesn't get it...
Re:Well, for one thing.. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you are going to install your own OS, Windows requires far
more babysitting and futzing before you will end up with a fully
functional system.
This is why you buy a system with the OS preloaded.
Loading Windows on a bare machine is a royal PITA compared to a
Linux install. This is pretty much a sure bet with Windows versus
being a role of the dice with Linux.
Then there's the stupid anti-piracy crap...
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Installing Windows is _not_ as easy as you make it seem. I recently built my own PC, and tried installing Vista64 on it. It just repeatedly got a little way through, threw a bsod and error codes at me, then immediately rebooted. It turns out Vista just does not work with a nVidia chipset motherboard, and 4gb or more of RAM without a hotfix (that I couldn't download because because I didn't have WGA). I've just realised how completely ass backwards this is - This is a hotfix for a bug that prevents Vista
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Why is ubuntu the only linux distro that has drivers for my wireless card? You would think something that simple wouldn't be hard to get drivers for.
Why didn't any version of linux have drivers for winmodems for a long time?
Because the Manufacturers didn't write an Open Source driver? Because the Manufacturers didn't write a binary blob driver? Because most of the hardware was emulated on the CPU and wasn't part of the released hardware spec? Because there wasn't a released hardware spec?
Yes.
Principle is seldom cheap. (Score:5, Interesting)
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So, I should pay more now for "bleeding edge" in order to help someone else pay less tomorrow?
This is Linux we're talking about here, not Apple.
Re:Principle is seldom cheap. (Score:5, Interesting)
I would choose to pay slightly more, because it tells the manufacturers that I want to use Linux, and I'd really like them to supply Linux drivers for their hardware.
There is a different argument as to whether you should pay more to Dell et al, or buy the cheaper machine and donate the extra to a FOSS project. I'm not sure which option is preferable there.
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As that 'other' person in you're equation, I'd say yes, fairly emphatically.
Make your principles cost them. (Score:5, Informative)
Returning windows does so many good things: increases the cost of selling Windows. Reduces the cost of buying a machine for Linux. Ensures MS don't get their MSTax, exercises the consumer laws, teaches companies to accept returns. (in the long run; the company probably makes a fixed cost deal with MS in any case and probably doesn't dare claim back, but they get a stronger negociating position next time round if many people do this).
Probably even better (I'm not sure though) is buying from a supplier like penguin computing [penguincomputing.com] which doesn't stock Windows in the first place. When you give extra money to Dell, you are giving to a company which does a great deal to support Windows development. When you give to Penguin, you can be pretty sure you aren't contributing.
Wiping the crapware will also work - indirectly (Score:3, Insightful)
By all means, buy the Windows computer and reformat to Linux. You will end up doing Microsoft a favor, but the crapware vendor has wasted his advertising money. I dislike this guys as much as Microsoft, and would settle for damaging them instead of MS.
Now if lots of people do this, I predict two consequences:
1) Crapware bundling will no longer be an a
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Wiping the crapware is really no different, in the end, from ignoring it.
To make a point (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:To make a point (Score:5, Insightful)
Depending on the country you're in, they may or may not be obliged to refund the cost of Windows. Very few countries where they would be have included in such legislation "and the retailer must make it easy".
Forcing you to spend an hour on the phone to a potplant reading from a script and training staff in a draconian refund policy (but not the customer's legal rights) are just two ways retailers use to duck out of honouring your statutory rights.
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Dell isn't responsible for drivers and software anyway. If that's your goal, hunt down parts that have compatible drivers or just badger the companies that have the incompatible parts you want.
Yes they are. Dell is in a much better position to "badger the companies" than any individual. The other companies don't sell directly to users, they sell through Dell, so what should they care if someone doesn't have the drivers they want? You aren't the one who is buying them in the first place. Dell on the other hand, is buying their hardware. If Dell says "We need these drivers or we will be going to your competitor for our purchases for the X number of linux boxes we sell." then those companies listen
I've often thought of this (Score:5, Insightful)
At the end of the day, I always decide that the hassle isn't worth it and that I'd also rather send the message to the company that there is a market for selling computers preloaded with Linux.
Just my $0.02.
Re:I've often thought of this (Score:4, Insightful)
Believe it or not, MS had to go through this phase of consumer acceptance with Win95 also.
Personally, when I purchased my last pc I could not get a pc preloaded with Linux, so I bought pieces and built my own like I have been doing for years. Hopefully when I buy my next pc that will not be the case.
If you can afford it, pay the tax, then take the EULA back for a refund. That should be good for one or two WTF blog posts anyway.
Re:I've often thought of this (Score:4, Informative)
It sold out on the first day, and was also full of bugs.
I don't think you can compare Linux consumer acceptance to Win95 consumer acceptance.
Marketing works (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe Linux could benefit by having a catchy theme song [youtube.com] too.
Re:I've often thought of this (Score:4, Interesting)
Blithely saying just return the EULA isn't going to work.
Saving money is all well and good- but when it contributes to the problem, unless you just simply can't swing the "extra expense" you should probably be doing DIY instead where you're not adding to their sales figures- which is what happens when you buy a unit, even if you return it because of the way their accounting for this stuff is done.
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Re:I've often thought of this (Score:4, Informative)
In the end, you're NOT helping things by buying the Windows machine. If you're not running Windows and they're not selling bare machines or ones with your OS of choice on it you're not really their customer- even though you're buying the machine. If you've no choice (no funds, no buying options...) this is a lesser of two evils thing- it's okay.
It's not so okay if you've got a choice. Sure it's cheaper- but each purchase of Windows or a Windows application is a VOTE with your dollars for MORE of the same crap.
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But sometimes it isn't just a question of compiling drivers, it may be more like writing drivers. Worse yet, it may involve reverse engineering the hardware in order to figure out how to write the drivers.
Then too, there may be hardware out there that works like the "winmodems" where you not only need to write a hardware driver, but also a pile of software to do much of the work.
Not every PC costs more with Linux (Score:5, Informative)
I haven't looked at their desktops, so I don't know if the same applies there.
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I haven't looked at their desktops, so I don't know if the same applies there.
So you can blame the vendor (Score:3, Insightful)
If you consider the ability to say 'hey, this doesn't work, I want my money back' without the reply being 'works for us, you messed up the install, your problem' to have a monetary value, then it's probably worth paying for the 'free' software.
Re:So you can blame the vendor (Score:4, Insightful)
you never delt with DELL or HP have you. that is their standard answer with....
"get out your restore CD and reinstall the OS."
Oh that support is worth paying for.... Erase my pc and everything I did for the past 4 months and wipe+reinstall the drive.
If that is what commercial support I am "paying" for is I'll pass.
keep looking, they are out there (Score:5, Informative)
No Operating System Installed £249.99 inc vat
Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition £299.99 inc vat
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic £329.00 inc vat
Microsoft Windows Vista Home Premium £339.00 inc vat
Microsoft Windows Vista Business £349.00 inc vat
Microsoft Windows XP Professional £359.00 inc vat
If you can install it yourself, that's nice, ... (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's the ideal case where there are no problems whatsoever after installing the OS. During my last attempts to install Ubuntu, I had to manually mess with the video driver settings (and that was for an ancient Ati Rage Mobility 3 chipset, nothing newfangled, which ran just fine with the previous version of Ubuntu).
Ok (Score:5, Interesting)
Secondly, if you WANT Linux and FOSS software to succeed in the desktop realm, supporting companies that are willing to go out on a limb and sell Linux on Desktops and Laptops is necessary. If there isn't any profit in it for them, they won't support FOSS. Simple as that.
Thirdly, Why would you WANT to pay the "Microsoft Tax", or have to deal with fighting with a machine who's hardware might only be partially supported under Linux. Vs. a machine with NO "Microsoft Tax" AND will have all hardware fully supported in Linux? Why make things harder on yourself?
Unless there is a specific piece of hardware that you need or want that is in a Windows box and not a Linux box, I really don't see the need to buy Windows when you want Linux if there are Linux machines available. Especially when the Linux machines are comparable in specs to the Windows ones, excepting the really high-end gaming rigs (Of course, if you want a high-end gaming rig, why wouldn't you just build it yourself from hardware you know is Linux supported?)
Why bother /. with this? (Score:2)
support? (Score:5, Insightful)
- for one thing, one can pray that the manufacturer has done everything to maximize compatibility. Sure, you can do it yourself, but for an average user, it really makes sense.
- support. Support is needed, when you're stuck and dont know what to do (or what questions to ask in the forums!). Having professional support is always a plus.
- you can't resell your Windows liscence anyways (read the small print). So why just trash it?
- giving the industry a sign. Ok, that one is a bit too theoretical, but anyways. A company producing a nice linux-powered PC that sells will continue to do that. Develop drivers, boots support, invest time and money. It will be an indicator that it isnt ony possible, but profitable... maybe others will then follow!
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Actually, we had a story here a week or two back in which Microsoft answered that. It seems that they're planning to sell the OLPC SO machine with Windows, and charge $3 for the license.
I wonder what the resale market for those machines will be like?
Why buy a pre-built computer? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Are you ok with funding Microsoft's propaganga? (Score:3, Interesting)
Buy it with windows, (Score:2, Informative)
Sorted
Best of both worlds (Score:5, Informative)
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Be advised that my wife's laptop came with a second EULA added by HP. The second EULA specifically overrode Microsoft's to add a condition - you may return the entire product, or nothing - no operating system refunds.
I'm thinking Windows refunds are having an effect, amigo. :-)
Why choose? (Score:2, Insightful)
It's convenient. (Score:4, Insightful)
And it doesn't always cost more.
Dell pricing is very funny.
Sometime the Linux models cost more, sometimes less.
Sometimes the Dell Small Business models cost more than Dell Home, sometimes less.
In my case a dell coupon code that they didn't mention would work on the Ubuntu model happened to work, so it was actually the exact same price as the windows model that day.
It demonstrates that there's a demand (Score:5, Interesting)
You may be able to install Linux on such a computer, but the proverbial Joe Sixpack or grandmother can't, or will be afraid to, or won't want to bother. If you lie to the market, you're making it less likely that _they_ will have the option to buy a computer with Linux preinstalled.
(And yes, I've put my money where my mouth is; I'm waiting for the Dell laptop with Linux preinstalled to arrive.)
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Go smaller or get a refund (Score:2)
If you do get a computer with windows bundled, then just return the windows part for a full refund. You are entitled to it. It wi
IBM (Score:4, Interesting)
Build your own PC (Score:2)
It seems quite obvious to me. I can't stand the thought of a MS tax. (Though its unavoidable as most hardware -- even drives, memory-sticks -- everything has a NDIS CD you don't need!) Build your PC -- Its very simple to do and you have total control of your hardware. In the case of a laptop, you might have to have it "special ordered", which could be a wait. No OS is a legal right in Europe and the only way I'd accep
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Two reasons why it's a good idea (Score:2, Interesting)
First, is the visibility. Companies do not have any idea how many people want Linux (or do not want M$, depending on your view point). Purchasing pre-loaded fixes the books so that companies have no doubt.
Second is, as someone else mentioned, you know that all of your components work with Linux. Most of us have had issues, where M$ only devices reside on a purchased PC. In that case, generally the products have no vendor support for Linux, and driver/software products capable of using them rely on t
Everybody wins! (Score:2)
simple matter of opportunity cost (Score:5, Insightful)
The question you want to ask yourself is whether the extra money paid is worth the chance to help bring this about. How much is the future prospect of better Linux compatibility worth to you? Is there something more valuable you can and want to do with whatever money you might save?
Custom made? (Score:4, Insightful)
Installing XP on a Linux eee PC (Score:2)
why Buy a PC preloaded with Windows? (Score:4, Informative)
So as you can then get the refund of US$109.162 [bbc.co.uk] by clicking "no" on the Windows licence agreement
It is odd that a Linux box costs more then a Windows box considering what Dell is paying for Linux. And considering with Linux you get a fully functioning Desktop, Office suite, multimedia etc as compared to a time limited reduced functionality Windows desktop.
Does Dell still have to pay the Microsoft tax regardless of how many Windows boxes it sells?
Two words: Latitude D830 (Score:3, Interesting)
You want to know a good reason to get a Linux preload? Trying to get Ubuntu to work with a Latitude D830 a few months ago was no fun.
Most of this is from memory, as I won't work there any more, and I'm mostly an OS X user, because I hate wasting my time with things that are broken out of the box.
First was even getting Ubuntu to boot. The current Ubuntu at the time needed to have "all_generic_ide" manually added to the boot parameters to get the Live Install CD to boot at all, or it would drop to a shell prompt with a cryptic error message, because it couldn't see anything on the IDE bus, and it couldn't read anything from the CD that wasn't part of the kernel/ramdisk image.
Next was getting the wireless drivers to work. It uses a Broadcom chipset which doesn't have Linux drivers (or at least not without a lot of work googling and downloading and compiling and configuring unfinished drivers), and when using ndiswrapper with the drivers from the Dell CD, I wasn't able (IIRC) to get it to stick to a particular SSID or enter a WEP key using the Ubuntu GUI setup, and I don't remember having much more success with the command line. Also, changing the network configuration sometimes didn't always change the network address, and while that may have been an Ubuntu bug,laptop didn't ship with Linux, so there was no support beyond pin-the-tail-on-the-user-support-board.
And then there was the trackpad. Goddamn piece of crap trackpad. I'm sure it worked wonderfully under Windows, but Ubuntu's default install set it up in a hyper-sensitive mode, where the cursor whizzed across the screen, and more than the lightest touch was taken as a mouse click. Try to click on something on the menu bar at the top of the screen, and you're likely to launch Firefox as you pass by its tiny little icon. It took me days to come up with an xorg.conf that moved at a decent speed, and turned touch-click completely OFF. (And the way that USB devices get set up for X-Windows under Linux, sequentially numbered in the order they were found, makes configuring trackpads potentially unreliable anyhow. Oops, this time I had a mouse plugged in during boot, so now my trackpad has a different event source number!)
And that's why you should want Linux pre-loaded. Drivers and configuration.
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Re:You should definitely pay the "tax" (Score:5, Insightful)
No, you'll feel better if you stand on principle, especially if it only cost you a few bucks. Judas killed himself over twenty silver pieces, right?
Every voice probably counts for something? That should really inspire the next generation.
Come on, man. You do actually use Linux, don't you? Do you really believe your own post? I encourage you to think critically about it. Participating in slashdot should embolden us to eliminate the Microsoft tax, not rationalize paying it.
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Uh, how would not paying a Microsoft tax end up costing myself a few bucks?
Look at it this way, every voice probably counts for something, but in the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter all that much what you as an individual do, so why go out on a limb
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