Hardy Heron Making Linux Ready for the Masses? 1100
desmondhaynes writes "Is Linux ready for the masses? Is Linux really being targeted towards the 'casual computer user'? Computerworld thinks we're getting there, talking of Linux 'going mainstream 'with Ubuntu. 'If there is a single complaint that is laid at the feet of Linux time and time again, it's that the operating system is too complicated and arcane for casual computer users to tolerate. You can't ask newbies to install device drivers or recompile the kernel, naysayers argue. Of course, many of those criticisms date back to the bad old days, but Ubuntu, the user-friendly distribution sponsored by Mark Shuttleworth's Canonical Ltd., has made a mission out of dispelling such complaints entirely.'"
Comment removed (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:take some risks (Score:4, Informative)
Ubuntu on a laptop (Score:5, Informative)
The BIGGEST fix they've provided (and I'm sure everyone agrees with me on this) is the failsafe mode if X screws up. Who remembers about a year ago when XServer was updated and it killed the desktop? They quickly remedied the situation but for a lot of people I imagine that it either made them reinstall or switch back to Windows. Luckily I managed to downgrade my version because I hadn't cleaned out my archives in a while.
It's taken a while, but Ubuntu's getting there.
No and No. I fought it earlier today. (Score:1, Informative)
Results?
1) It was unable to use my RAID controller to install onto the existing RAID-1 array. It insisted on being installed on a single drive. To get it to boot at all, I had to completely break the RAID volume.
2) It was unable to use my wireless card. It didn't see it at all, so it wasn't in the "connections" menu.
3) It failed to notice that I have a dual-head video card with two screens attached. The second screen was a mirror of the first during boot, but after boot it turned into a fantastic mosaic of random-colored 80x25 random-ASCII.
As far as I can tell, none of these problems were addressable via the provided system configuration tools.
If there were solutions, they were too hard to find to even consider it being "ready for the masses".
Unix for the masses is here, and it's called OS X. Hardy Heron is difficult to use, poorly documented junk.
Should we assume users are stupid? (Score:3, Informative)
To make an OS available to the 'casual user' you have to make some decisions for them.
Linus hates this and has sworn off Gnome because he feels Gnome makes too many decisions for the user. He feels that the Gnome project is taking the stance that the users are stupid [linux-foundation.org] but unfortunately this may be just the thing to get Linux desktops into the public mainstream and is part of why Ubuntu is so successful.
Users need a machine that just works out of the box and since Vista doesn't this is a great opportunity for Linux.
Re:MP3s (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not only casual computer users (Score:1, Informative)
Gentoo generally tries to be as "vanilla" as possible, and so while it provides some tools, it will do no configuration for you. It's an enjoyably liberating experience, but it does require work to get everything playing nicely together. Oh, and that's not to mention the occasional idiot dev who breaks things.
Yes, it is ready, but not just because of Ubuntu (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, but no more so than Mandriva 2008.1. I installed it this past weekend and it is about as slick as I have seen any Linux installation thus far. Everything just "works", and works well. It is gorgeous, fast, easy to use, seamlessly knit together, simple to update, loaded with helpful admin tools, and full of packages.
It is nice to know there are many decent choices for a high quality Linux desktop experience!
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:5, Informative)
The most common version of this issue has to do with when a new kernel update occurs during a NORMAL ubuntu update. You click the orange star, choose update, let it download and install, then reboot and voila...no more access to any hard drive. It happens to my machine every single time.
I have to get out my liveCD boot with it, mount the main HDD partition, go into the
If you have customized your menu.lst you will also have problems the next time a kernel update happens as the update will wipe out your customization, so if you have modified the menu.lst file to make change the order in which the menu displays your choices and which os is the default, that will be wiped out and you could loose access to one or more of your partitions (hence OSes). I have see this repeatedly, and in the latest situation I have had to turn off all updates so it didn't brick this retired gentleman's system.
On my system it changes the hard drive number and I have to either boot with the livecd or remember to modify the menu.lst before I reboot the computer. Total pain.
Now I'm not supporting the idea that the installer bricked his unit. It didn't. I'm saying that making this sort of error and letting it stand for years without being addressed and then tossing it back into the face of the user (who just might be a retired friend who knows little about computers) is not the way to go about marking your product.
Re:Commercial Gaming (Score:4, Informative)
I did my taxes on linux this year... all online and all free. I had to ignore a 'your browser is unsupported' message, but it worked. (granted my taxes were simple)
T
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:5, Informative)
If they try to install Windows on their Ubuntu system, Windows will destroy their access to their Ubuntu partition with no questions asked.
Maybe it would be a good idea to suggest those things in the manual, but its not big enough of a deal for Ubuntu or Windows to do it.
Either put up with the (admittedly horrible) norms of reliability in the computing world, or improve it yourself. There is nothing to gain by bitching about it for so long.
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:5, Informative)
Somehow, Ubuntu is being flamed for this, even though it puts a lot more effort into playing nice with other OS's than Windows - which nobody seems to criticize here at all.
Re:No and No. I fought it earlier today. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:5, Informative)
### BEGIN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST
And.. don't change anything between:
## ## End Default Options ##
and
### END DEBIAN AUTOMAGIC KERNELS LIST
Feel free to put additional definitions after the end of that block, and to change the way the other definitions are defined, adjust the 'comments' above the block.
Then, once you've done that, run 'grup-update' to apply your changes and see if it was what you were after. I usually make one change:
I change #howmany to #howmany=2 (that way I still have one history in case the new kernel doesn't work).
Hopefully that makes life easier for you...
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:3, Informative)
I think this is more a market share issue. When linux gains in numbers i believe companies might start to pay attention and have linux drivers released.
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:5, Informative)
Rendering your system unbootable however is something else entirely. Although you may have screwed up the data on your hard drive to the point of no (or really expensive) recovery the system as a wholeâ"and even the driveâ"are/is still 100% usable with a little bit of work; mostly/all in software.
Unbootable != bricked.
Re:I agree (Score:2, Informative)
I plug a new monitor in and it just works.
It seems to me that a *fifteen minute* process with instructions could be a lot simpler.
Not that Linux hasn't improved vastly over the years, but it's nowhere near simple. Some people like that. Most don't.
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:5, Informative)
Why not set the kernel-related packages to 'hold' status? Then, they won't be automatically updated (the updater will say "package X has been held back" or something to that effect).
When you're in the mood to update the kernel and perform all the liveCD booting that entails, you can manually update that package (unhold, install new version, hold again).
Meanwhile, you can still leave automatic update on to get all other updates automatically without fear that you might be in for a surprise dose of liveCD booting and MBR fixing (which I agree is very annoying if you had stuff to get done when it happens).
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:3, Informative)
If you customize on the uncommented actual boot lines, then yes, the customizations will be overwritten, because the computer has no way to know which part of the line need to be changed, and which should stay. That's what the commented sections are for.
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Ubuntu Webserver (Score:2, Informative)
The server edition is aimed at headless servers and offers task package options such as DNS, Fileserver, LTSP & LAMP during the process.
There's also an even slimmer version [ubuntu.com] for virtualised appliances.
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:2, Informative)
You seem to be missing the point that the parent is talking about configuration scripts only because the GP was talking about problems with the configuration script. The Joe Sixpacks out there do not need to deal with configuration scripts unless they choose to. The system will work just fine and is quite configurable through the GUI without ever needing to hand-edit a configuration script.
Time to come up with some new criticisms, as "newbies required to hack configuration files" is quite out of date.
Re:They're doing great (Score:2, Informative)
(1) MS isn't directly involved with driver signing; you get keys from Verisign
(2) "Only" the x64 editions of Vista refuse to load drivers that aren't signed
Re:No, and No (Score:2, Informative)
BTNX [ollisalonen.com]
Using a Logitech MX Revolution (the one with the funky flywheel and the sub-par batteries) on Ubuntu 7.10 Gutsy right now ... and have been without any problems for 6 months or so. It worked out of the box (2 buttons and the flywheel). The rest of the myriad of buttons were set using BTNX
ohRe:Yes, and yes. (Score:3, Informative)
Yeah, but it overwrites the MBR without asking and without offering a way to boot the other OS.
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:3, Informative)
I was about to write that too, but I don't think this will help him. He is talking about changing "default num", which is at the top of the file. Of course, I doubt that the system simply overwrites a changed config file, it always asks.
That said, I see that there is now an option in the location of the file that you described that will do what OP wants. This might be new in Hardy, though:
## should update-grub adjust the value of the default booted system
## can be true or false
# updatedefaultentry=false
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:3, Informative)
A system that can have the OS recovered or at least reinstalled by using a Linux live CD or a Windows CD is not bricked by any stretch of the imagination.
Re:the eeePC is (Score:1, Informative)
The OS is amazingly well designed, and "just works". I wouldn't dream of farking that system up by putting WinXP on it (it ships with drivers so you can do that if you want).
Linux is here for the masses, but Ubuntu isn't yet. I like Ubuntu, but there are complaints I have that aren't going away anytime soon: My G15's features aren't supported whatsoever beyond the A-Z and 0-9 keys, some weird sound issues with a Audigy 2 from a fresh install (but no issues with WinXP), and setting up the 22" widescreen is a HUGE PITA from a fresh install. I've only used Ubuntu for about 3 weeks now.....can you imagine my frustration trying to edit xorg (or even knowing that's what I needed to do) to get the monitor working at all from a fresh install?
Think back when you weren't a Linux geek. New install, no graphics modes working in 7.10. What the hell do you do first to fix it? Fix stuff like that, and Ubuntu is ready too.
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:4, Informative)
Whoa! Really? That is one weird monitor you got.
And to answer your questions:
My webcam worked easier in Ubuntu than Windows XP.
My TV Tuner worked easier in Ubuntu than Windows XP.
And my laptop was pretty easy to get working with 1280x800
Never tried a temp sensor.
You didn't ask, but my printer worked MUCH better in Ubuntu than XP (somehow, Windows glitched and printed 20 pages of gibberish on the install when I hit "print test page" and got up to get something to drink, figuring now was a good time after setting up most of XP from a fresh install... I haven't risked wasting toner to fix it and just print from Linux)
I won't argue that it's easier than Mac OS X -- never used it -- but I will say it worked for me better than Windows XP. (before ubuntudupe or anyone replies yapping at me, please note the "for me" clause there...)
Re:Yes, & yes = NO & No (Score:3, Informative)
It's been quite a while since I haven't been able to get drivers for stuff, most of them were already there and required no hunting around at all. In fact I've had to hunt around the internet for drivers for xp installations for equipment where my linux installs just worked far more frequently. And then there's Vista - it won't play most avi's unless you hunt up something like vlc so it's no worse than having to find out how to install codecs on linux. If you are using ubuntu you don't even have to do that. And, well, lets face it, vista is the worst thing M$ have produced since dos4 and they want me to empty my bank account for the drm ridden pos when I can run debian for free???
You raise me a pc mag application, I'll up you the ante with thousands of apps in the repos that install with a single click, and they didn't even cost the price of a magazine. I need broadband? I do ok on an isdn connection but you have to fill your tank and drive to the shops (again, with wallet in hand) or hand out your credit card details over the net and still have to download some bloatware or wait for the postman.
It isn't linux that isn't ready for the desktop, it's windows.
Re:No, not really (Score:4, Informative)
http://savage2.s2games.com/main.php [s2games.com]
http://www.eve-online.com/ [eve-online.com]
http://www.wesnoth.org/ [wesnoth.org]
http://www.flightgear.org/ [flightgear.org]
http://www.freeciv.org/ [freeciv.org]
http://www.sauerbraten.org/ [sauerbraten.org]
http://www.scorched3d.co.uk/ [scorched3d.co.uk]
http://wz2100.net/ [wz2100.net]
http://www.cubeengine.com/ [cubeengine.com]
http://lincity-ng.berlios.de/ [berlios.de]
http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/ [sourceforge.net]
http://www.wormux.org/ [wormux.org]
http://www.secretmaryo.org/ [secretmaryo.org]
http://www.ufoai.net/ [ufoai.net]
http://www.bzflag.org/ [bzflag.org]
http://tremulous.net/ [tremulous.net]
http://www.eternal-lands.com/ [eternal-lands.com]
http://www.enemyterritory.com/ [enemyterritory.com]
Perhaps you could stop with the "No games for Linux" BS already as you obviously have your head up your ass.
Re:Yes, and yes. (Score:4, Informative)
The first time I heard the term, it was used to refer to DD-WRT installation. In this case, the only way to rewrite the OS of a commodity wireless router is through the router's own internal software update mechanism, which requires an existing functional OS. It does not have the capability of booting from any external media. If you try re-writing the OS and encounter a failure which causes the device to no longer boot, then you no longer have any means to restore a functional OS to the device. At this time, there is no software in the world that will allow you to fix this problem (if there is, then I would welcome the news). Your only option is to send it back to the manufacturer and claim that it "just stopped working one day" and hope the price of doing this is less than the price of a new wireless router. Until such time, there is nothing you can do in a user serviceable manner to restore wireless routing functionality to the device.