Dell Censors IdeaStorm Linux Dissent 228
thefickler writes "It seems pointless to seek ideas and feedback if you're going to ignore and delete the opinions you don't like. That's exactly what Dell is doing with its IdeaStorm website, which the company set up to solicit such ideas and feedback. Dell deleted a post linking to an article that criticizes its handling of the 'pre-installed Linux' issue."
Ahh. (Score:5, Funny)
Go ahead, mod me down, fuckers. Your mother is a Java programmer.
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Re:Ahh. (Score:5, Funny)
Dell laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windows! (Score:5, Insightful)
The laptop loaded with Windows XP [dell.com] costs $699, while the same laptop and configuration loaded with no operating system [dell.com] costs $747. Note that you must change the following two hardware options on the web page showing laptop without an OS so that they match the hardware options found by default for the Windows laptop: Hard drive=60GB 5400RPM and Modular Bay Optical="8X DVD".
So it seems that Windows has a negative price tag as far as Dell is concerned! It looks like Dell is still subsidizing Microsoft for every Windows-free laptop they sell. I'm getting my laptop from System76 [system76.com] -- they sell excellent quality Linux laptops, desktops, and servers. They also have a great support team [ubuntuforums.org] that cares about Linux and open source.
Re:Dell laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windows (Score:3, Interesting)
Just curious. Have you already purchased systems from them? How did you come to this conclusion?
Thanks
Re:Dell laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windows (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Dell laptops cost MORE w/ no OS than w/ Windows (Score:5, Insightful)
I fear pre-installed Linux (Score:2)
pre-loaded windows systems come full of advertisement crap such as free AOL installs which will dramatically decrease the cost of the PC to you and me. This is one of the many ways PC manufacturers keep the cost of the machine down. It's very likely that the advertising revenue is greater than the pittance they pay for the OS in their ginormous...
When companies like Dell begin selling PCs with Linux pre-installed for consumers we will quickly see the emergence of exactly this kind of crap that infests Windows. The upside is downloading and installing an alternative OS to clean up the pre-installed crap is free. The downside is that the "Dells" probably won't offer support if you swap the OS and have access to the source such that they can bury the ad-ware deep within the system.
I expect tricks like goofy proprietary hardware that requires special d
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The mass-market Windows laptop outsells all other configurations.
Not in small numbers but in big numbers. Really big numbers. The mass-market Windows laptop is priced lower than all other configurations but delivers more profit at less cost to the direct seller or big box retailer.
Dell markets the bare bones PC to commercial clients purchas
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Re:Ahh. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, of course they have the right to suppress whatever they want on their own stuff. In fact, we should expect this from most organizations run by humans.
But many of us would really like to know when this is happening. It tells us a lot about the trustworthiness of their information. If an organization (corporation, government, whatever) wants our trust, they should make their information handling "transparent" and visible to us. Otherwise, we'll just infer that they have something to hide from us.
Nobody with a grain of sense ever trusts any organization that hides or suppresses information about their inner workings. (And yes, this does mean that I don't trust very many organizations. We have words for someone who does. Words like "naïve" and "sucker".
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That one DID hurt!
Dude (Score:4, Funny)
There are more civil ways (Score:4, Funny)
chair and chair alike.....
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Ideas or Criticism (Score:5, Insightful)
If I asked for some ideas, I would be open minded about what I received. If I got complaints instead with no ideas (not sure if the link gave suggestions or just complained), I would also remove them to try and stop the forum from becoming a flame war.
Re:Ideas or Criticism (Score:5, Informative)
Roughly the idea storm post I read (not the article, but it linked to it), someone decided to complain that.
1) Dell wasn't providing Linux support for all models NOW
2) Dell wasn't given a guranteed time frame or even a gurantee on making all models "Linux ready" or "Linux preinstalled"
3) Dell picked SUSE, the Linux that pays MS.
The persond didn't use profanity and wasnt exceptionally inflamatory given how ticked off he seemded, but at the same time, he was complaining that he wasn't handed the sun and moon on a silver platter right now.
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addendum (Score:2)
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The mechanics of putting an arbitrary alt-OS in place is trivial. The certification wouldn't even be that hard. They probably have a small horde of interns and people higher up in the food chain that have already been asking to do the legwork for this.
The choice of distro doesn't even really matter. It just serves to confirm that the machine will infact work with Linux and would serve as a quick sanity & compatability che
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It confirms that it works with _that distro_ - if that distro happens to ship with various non-Free drivers then that won't do you a blind bit of good if you want it to work with a completely Free distro.
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Are you intentionally spreading misinformation or are you just clueless?
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"yep, the OS installs"
"yep, it sees the drives"
"yep, the monitor displays dem purdy pictures"
"yep, the spears are plain' that purdy music"
etc.
etc.
etc.
It involves stress testing and the testing of many situations in a corporate environment such as Dell (and most OEM distributors), to make sure that it not only (a) works initially, but (b) can actually handle a wide variety of situations.
They can't just trust your word that "Yeah, Linux rocks", they have to make s
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speakers, not spears...
I deserve death now. Maybe even that is too good for me.
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Just make sure that the Linux kernel supports Dell computers 100% to start with.
Doing that is pretty quick compared to offering a particular distro.
Though the truth is... (Score:3, Informative)
Oh, but they have to guarantee hardware compatibility. Heck, I can do that in an hour or two. I build boxes all the time with info I get off the internet.
The trut
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Amen to that. For example, on 2) how could Dell possibly give a timeframe on that without doing a huge job figuring out if there were drivers for all the hardware they ship. Perhaps there are many that simply can't do it, because there's no driver, there's IP issues and whatnot which means there's not going to be a driver unless Dell dedicates own staff to reverse engineer it. As for 1) and 3), why would they overload the
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Beyond that, it wouldn't be hard to have the basic hardware be stuff that works under Linux in general. The specific OS stuff is just a stall tactic.
The reason people are so pissy is because this got their hopes up, and now it looks like it may be postponed... indefinately.
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So, no I'm not full of shit. I hope that clears things up for you, now try to be civil, or at least grow half a spine and stop hiding behind anonymous coward.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
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The only 'idea' out of the post was "Comply with the DOJ and give everybody a fair shake Dell."
The rest was just a mild rant.
Overstatement (Score:5, Insightful)
Why, does asking for opinions imply that you agree to follow and publish every one of them? They might have had a different kind of feedback in mind, like new models with a different hardware feature set.
Re:Overstatement (Score:4, Insightful)
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Yeah, I don't really see what the problem here is. Did Dell establish this site so that people would talk about how Dell is evil? My impression was, no, they were asking for ideas on how to keep their customers happy. If you want to spread the word about why you hate Dell, try registering whyihatedell.com and run your own site.
You know... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:You know... (Score:4, Insightful)
Now, you've hit the nail on the head.
I know this is going to get modded down but I'm being very honest: The Linux community is turning into it's own worst enemy. Have it shoved in your face with all the fanatical zest of a religious cult visiting your home at 6am on a weekend morning is going to turn many many people sour to the message before it ever gets told.
How many companies that are dealing with Joe Sixpack users really want to be aligned with a fringe group like the Linux community? Not many.
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I've been on linux mailing lists since the early 90s. Nothing has changed, yet linux still makes inroads. Since 93, for every response telling
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LOL! that's the funniest thing i've read in ages. are you really that naive? companies want to turn a profit. if an element of the marketplaces is (or at least appears) unprofitable they will not go there.
you're a funny funny man.
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A few factors I've considered from Dell's aspect is that: They may not be working closely enough with any Linux group
Par for the course (Score:2, Interesting)
1. Corporation screws customers
2. Someone on the web blogs about it
3. Social networking sites pick up on it
4. Semi-mainstream media and maybe even real MSM pick it up
5. Corp backpedals
6. Everyone forgets about the transgression
7. Profit! (for the corp)
We don't even need ellipsis. We've been through this enough to know where the profit comes from at this point.
YRO should be changed to URF (Score:2, Insightful)
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http://yro.slashdot.org/ [slashdot.org]
Dell Censors IdeaStorm Linux Dissent no
MPAA Fires Back at AACS Decryption Utility no
RIAA Announces New Campus Lawsuit Strategy no
Patent Office Head Lays Out Reform Strategy maybe
Politics: Canada Rejects Anti-Terror Laws YES
so the last time was Feb 28th.. oh wait- that was yesterday!
plus, positive is all in the spin of the matter at hand.
the last one could just as easily been written as- Canada decides to allow terroists more privacy...
Right place, right time (Score:5, Insightful)
You can imagine my surprise when they delivered a mash of ground beef and some wretched oil-soaked fries on the side. I said to the waitress, this isn't what I ordered. She was unmoved. I demanded that I talk to a manager. This little pissant 20-something comes out and asks me if there is anything he can help me with. I shoved the order in his face and asked him if he thought it was a steak, medium-rare.
No, sir.
Then why the hell did you serve it to me? Are you telling me I can't order my meal the way I want it and expect a modicum of service?
Sir, this is Burger King. You can have it your way, within the bounds of our menu.
I suppose I should have gone to the steak restaurant if I wanted steak.
Re:Right place, right time (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Right place, right time (Score:5, Insightful)
The red juice from a steak is not blood.
Uh, yeah it is. What the hell do you think it is?
If you are trying to cast Dell as analogous to Burger King then you're gonna have a hard time convincing anyone. You may not like the taste of Dell's "food" but they made of living off of "made to order" configurability. Dell pioneered that.
His analogy's spot on. Burger King's motto, as he put it, is "have it your way." Now they at least assume that what you might want is at least roughly the same as most of their other customers, so if you come in and want anchovies on your burger you're SOL. Same with Dell. Yes, they do configure it for you, but there are limits to it and one of the limits they've chosen to set is they're not dealing with Linux for consumers. Quite frankly, I don't blame them.
So I'd say the original analogy is correct. If the company in question simply doesn't sell what you want, buy from someone else. I really don't get the furor, it's not like Dell is the only computer manufacturer. And any Linux geek worth his/her salt is going to want to install their own thing anyway.
If it's just about not paying the MS "tax," let's make that it's own issue.
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If Linux eventually takes over the desktop, it won't be because everyone becomes a Linux geek. Isn't the fact that a significant sampling of people a) want Dell hardware and b)can't or won't install Linux on
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If Linux eventually takes over the desktop, it won't be because everyone becomes a Linux geek. Isn't the fact that a significant sampling of people a) want Dell hardware and b)can't or won't install Linux on it themselves a sign of increasing desktop penetration (or at least market demand for it) of Linux?
First, I'd say that it's not a significant sampling, not compared to Dell's overall customer base - it's just vocal. Second, I think - and this is just a guess - that people want Dell to offer Linux bec
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Uh, yeah it is. What the hell do you think it is?
Probably the red dye that a lot of supermarkets add to meat to make it look fresh.
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If Dell sold fewer computers with Windows there would be less spam in my inbox.
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It's not blood. It's cellular fluid, the liquid within the muscle cells. It leaks out when the cell walls are ruptured from cooking.
Horseshit. That "red stuff" is present before cooking, and the red color is from hemoglobin.
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Actually almost every butcher uses red dye. And it's more of a meat packing plant thing anyway.
But yes, that fluid is not blood. Rarely, you will see actual blood in a cut of meat, and it looks - shocker - just like human blood - viscous, dark red, high surface tension.
Almost all blood is drained out of animals when they are slaughtered now.
~X
Similar threads are still live (Score:5, Informative)
Seesh People.. better things to do? (Score:5, Interesting)
What exacerbates the issue is whenever a moderation activity takes place against either the open source community, or the Linux community, the reaction is swift, dramatic, and overdone. OMFG my post was removed.. it is a conspiracy!!!
So what! Dell removed a post on a site that was soliciting user input. Aren't there bigger problems in the world?
If I asked you to come in my house, and provide me feedback on how my living room looks, and you responded "that's the biggest piece of crap I've ever seen," then I would probably censure you and throw you out.
Re:Seesh People.. better things to do? (Score:5, Insightful)
That's very rude of you. You ask someone to come over and give you their opinion for free, which you will then profit from by having a nicer house, and you kick them out because you don't like what they said?
Given our current property laws, that is certainly within your rights. It is also within my rights to stand at the edge of a property waving a large sign saying "Rude person lives here."
As always, freedom of the press only applies to those that own a press. Otherwise, you are free (for now) to go find a street corner and shout at passers by.
I get the feeling that even complaining about this issue pisses off a lot of authoritarian-types. It seems there are a number of people in the world who really, really want everyone else to stop complaining about anything that might hurt the profits of a business. We should all just lie back and think of England.
Businesses have a right to do certain things that piss us off. That does not mean that we have no right to complain about it. And the mere existence of other, larger problems in the world also does not remove our right to complain about this one.
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I think it is important for everyone to understand that First Amendment rights don't exist on Websites, blogs, and message forums. Those that own those communication platforms are free to delete or censure anything they feel necessary to maintain the spirit and intentions of both the supporting business and the site as a whole.
You're absolutely right. What should be getting railed against here isn't perceived civil oppression, but rather a company saying, "Okay, we want you, our potential customers, to t
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OK, but to bring your analogy back to point, there are people who think that Linux is a really, really ugly couch.
Plaid. With pet stains.
Ugh.
Much Ado about deleting a Troll Post? (Score:5, Interesting)
There has to be some moderation of flame-bait and trolling posts on any forum. Moreover, the post was deleted probably by an overzealous moderator, rather than through some evil Dell mastermind with a conspiracy against linux.
Dell runs a business, not a fanboy site. (Score:2)
What is it? why let the tempers flair? If you can't be sincere about something without sounding immature, irrelevent and childish what is the sense of Dell even catering to you or justifying your actions by supporting them on their systems?
Its dells forums, its dells channel of communication. They can do as they se
Justification for Deletion (Score:3, Insightful)
Again, didn't see the deleted post.
Amen (Score:2)
The post was posted wrong (Score:5, Informative)
This is the equivalant of a slashdot moderator moderating a post -1 off-topic or -1 troll. With the obvious exception is that there is no ability to read at -1 on dellideastorm.
Ideas and suggestions are one thing. Posting an off-topic criticism is another.
Note: I do not agree with the choice to remove the post. But I also understand the reasoning behind the decision.
I swear, the bias and overeacting around here is as bad as fox news lately. Censorship... please. China has censorship. This little Dell forum moderation is peanuts compared to REAL censorship. Get a grip, Slashdot.
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Is there anything that keeps slashdot from deleting posts? No. Private companies can censor things under their control all they want.
Don't like it? Start your own site and delete whatever you don't like.
vote with your feet (Score:2)
Not ignoring... (Score:2)
Clearly they saw those criticisms, so I don't think they're being totally ignored. I'm willing to bet they're well noted as the concerns of a vocal minority. And there's the rub... Dell doesn't HAVE to do jack sh*t just to appease a few Linux activists. Their main business is going to remain, for quite a while, wintel machines. As to their website, it's their website, they can do whatever the h
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teen angst ramblings aside, dell has been fingerfucking with linux for years. i think this is why the story intrigues so many people. most dell desktops will run linux with no difficulty, and have done so for years. my first linux machine was a dell 486/66 and i have installed different distros on probably two dozen dell optiplexes over the years. i even h
Calm Down (Score:2)
Dell is right, in that it'll take a lot of work to get everything ready. If they sell it, they have to support it. That means training both sales and support staff; verifying what hardware has Linux drivers; etc. There is a LOT of work for them to do.
I've always t
Happens all the time on company-sponsored forums. (Score:2)
"Censorship" is the wrong word because it refers to the removal of information by government officials, and as far as I know neither Apple nor Dell is the government, yet. (Not even Microsoft is the government. Yet.) I don't think the Terms and Conditions of company-sponsored forums generally include a Bill of Rights. Nor do they generally promise that you will be able to read everything that anyone else has posted.
Infuriating? Sure.
Re:Happens all the time on company-sponsored forum (Score:2)
Read Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] or Websters [m-w.com]
Censorship does not require government. It is the removal of information from the public, or the prevention of circulation of information, where it is desired or felt best by some controlling group or body that others are not allowed to access the information which is being censored.
It qualifies!
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An odd thought though:
Is all censorship bad?
For instance, what do you call the removal of incorrect information from the public eye (say, on Wikipedia)? Technically that's censorship, but nobody complains.
I think the issue is not about pure technical censorship, but oppressive censorship that actually infringes on people's rights - which typically can only be done by governments.
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troll (Score:5, Insightful)
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> They wanted people to tell them how they can "improve [their] products and services"
I think that's pretty generous of you. The postings on the web site will never be read by the business folks at Dell. It has no bearing on what they decide to roll out. The site is simply there as a form of cheap advertising, to get consumers interested in their upcoming product.
jfs
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Why is it "pointless"? (Score:2)
It certainly is annoying to those, who posted the removed feedback, but it is not at all pointless for Dell to do so. They've received it and read it. They may remove it to make themselves look better (or try to, rather), or they may simply want to filter (what they perceive as garbage) out.
Their point may have've been to get ideas they would like — removing others may make sense.
Censor this (Score:4, Interesting)
I can't see why they bothered (Score:2)
If he simply said that Dell reneged on a promise; or that it was making a mistake by not offering Linux preinstalls, I could see a nefarious PR motive behind dropping the post. But it sounds like it was written by a manic depressive who's of his meds.
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Huh? (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe it's pointless but everybody does it all the time. Half the time, if I say, "hey, what do you think of X?" I'm looking for, "X is really great, you did a good job on it." It's psychological, don't tell me you don't do the same.
Dell deleted a post linking to an article that criticizes its handling of the 'pre-installed Linux' issue.
Sounds to me that they deleted a post linking to a whiny bitch. Let's try this little summary mixer;
"It seems pointless to submit ideas and feedback to Dell if you're going to write a whiny article because they don't do exactly what you want."
Besides, Dell is a huge corporation. They're investigating a process to get their hardware approved by Linux distributers. For a huge corporation, that's a major undertaking... I'm sure whoever wrote that whiny article was looking for, "yes sir, we'll have those on shelves tomorrow!" as a response.
There are still no Linux laptops from anybody real (Score:3, Interesting)
The reason this matters is that there are no Linux laptops available from any vendor bigger than a garage shop.
Yes, there's Linux Certified [linuxcertified.com], in the same building with Mr. Chau's Chinese Fast Food [yelp.com] in San Jose. And there's System76 [system76.com], whose address is a Pak Mail in Denver. [pakmail.com]
If you're selling hardware that may have to be maintained or replaced, you need to be bigger than that to play.
Of course, once upon a time there was VA Linux, but we know what happened to them. [wikipedia.org]
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Then, you can install Ubuntu, SuSe, Red Hat, Gentoo, Debian, FreeBSD, OpenBSD,
Hardly. (Score:2)
Let the market solve the problem (Score:2)
Anyway, I don't blame them for deleting a troll post.
Deleted post was just a rant, but still... (Score:2)
The deleted post didn't have any suggestions. All it did was rag on Dell for apparently flip-flopping on preinstalls of Linux.
However, deleting the post was a mistake. It opens the door to accusations of insincerety, cover ups, astroturfing, and so forth. It could show Dell hasn't enough respect for freedom of speech, or is too arrogant and sure of themselves. No, of course they own the site and have every right to do anything they want with it. But that doesn't mean they should, or no one will visit
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HOWEVER they do pay for that choice of quelling dissent and calling upon falsehoods. They pay for that in even more lost goodwill and eventually, profit. So, yes, let them do whatever they want. Smaller "frys" will move in and snap away business that they refuse and dismiss.
2% of the market? Hmm... Thats around 4-5 Million people. Would YOU sneeze at this market segment?
Dell say yes to linux ??? (Score:2)
http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS3822185143.html [desktoplinux.com]
Has Dell Ever Really Supported Linux (Score:3, Funny)
From my personal experience we don't need no freaking support from them anyway. The last Dell laptop I used didn't completely blow donkey balls when I installed Linux on it. I was able to get high resolution, the docking station, wireless and the ethernet cards to work and was able to spin the fans up from sofware for when I ran Wine (Which always seems to want to cause a meltdown.) It also didn't give me third degree penis burns when I tried to use it in my lap. You always had plenty of warning when Wine was heating the machine up to penis boiling temperatures.
I don't see why their company policy with Linux can't just be "Probably won't suck donkey balls. Won't boil your penis," and leave it at that. I mean really, we're linux people, what more do we really need?
Of course these days I'm quite happy with the PPC Powermac I use. It never gets more than warm, wireless and ssh worked right out of the box and I didn't feel a burning urge to replace the OS the moment I turned it on. So sorry, Dell, even though your product doesn't suck donkey balls and doesn't boil my penis, the guys with the black tee shirts and the hair mousse still win.
Dell's F--Up (Score:2)
Um... its still there (Score:5, Informative)
no pre-load = neutral position (Score:2)
Dell is just taking a neutral position with regard to Linux. They know that the majority of customers that would use Linux would not want to use whatever distribution they chose. This is actually a better response from Dell we are getting than we might get from some other business where they wear their ties a bit too tight and think that since the Linux community has not reached a concensus on "the one distribution", they can't go with Linux.
What Dell could do in this case, however, is include a CD/DVD o
Not surpising... (Score:2)
/. hypocrisy? (Score:2)
Hmmm...
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To demonstrate, I invite Slashdotters to head over to my site [abandonedstuff.com] and make me look bad if you think that I really am bad in a justifiable way. So long as you're making *me* look bad, and not making yourself look like a dick who is mean, I'll leave the comment in place. I may even leave it if yo