22,000 Indiana Students Using Linux Desktops 321
Anonymous writes "Indiana's Department of Education has moved 22,000 students onto Linux desktops, and it's looking like that's only going to accelerate with SLED 10, Linspire, and other distributions getting better."
In indiana... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:In indiana... (Score:4, Funny)
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Please be specific.
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Standard installers == Bullshit! (Score:5, Insightful)
I call bullshit on all this fud from people decrying the "need" for standard installers.
1. Try an installer from any of the major distros. They're ALL easier than Windows.
2. You only install the installer once, then you image the drive and copy the image to the other N computers in the sale.
3. The end user will NOT be the one installing any of these.
So everyone, who gives a shit about a common installer? Let the installers proliferate, and we'll continue to have competition for the BEST installer, which will change from year to year, rather than those lame ones we see with the bitch from Redmond that can barely install an OS, never mind 10 gigs of software in one shot (that 10 gigs figure is what I got from installing the latest opensuse distro, fwiw).
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Try an installer from any of the major distros. They're ALL easier than Windows.
If I install a Window's program as an installer, it usually will install on any Windows box. If I download a Linux install image or source, or just try to run a particular program on a bunch of different Linux boxes, I run into problems. That is the issue.
You only install the installer once, then you image the drive and copy the image to the other N computers in the sale. The end user will NOT be the one installing any of t
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Installing software only from a terminal is fine for a server, or even a developer workstation, but it is not ideal for a normal user's desktop or workstation. Compare the instructions you listed above to dragging an application anywhere on your hard drive, which is what OS X provides. That may give you a hint as to why people are moving from Linux to OS X in droves for workstations. The other part is that such an installation does not always work on every linux variant without dealing with numerous other f
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Eh?? Linux is booming in the film, animation and scientific industries.
Linux is doing fine as a server OS. It is doing poorly as a workstation in most fields. It does well in the film industry because of filmgimp, but even there a lot of people have moved to OS X for the workstation. As for scientific "industry" the number of macs as workstations and laptops in most of the sciences has skyrocketed in the last few years, much more so than Linux.
Preinstalled Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
It'll be a big step forward when Linux is available there as well, just because--even if people don't order it--the fact that it's on the list right next to Windows makes it seem more 'official.'
The only place I've seen Linux as an option for a preinstalled OS from a major vendor is HP's "Workstation" line (which are really nice computers, and certainly better than the shit they foist on consumers, but not something average people are likely to see). I keep hearing that Dell offers Linux as some sort of option: can anyone explain where it's offered, or what the secret is?
Of course there are the small companies that offer preinstalled Linux systems, but sadly they seem to be charging a price premium that's really the wrong direction to be going in. Looking only at them versus at Windows boxes, you'd assume that the "Linux tax" is a few hundred dollars more than the Redmond one.
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Your selection of FreeDOS or RedHat:
AVAILABLE HERE [dell.com]
Re:In indiana... (Score:5, Insightful)
The core standard API is POSIX.
The standard 3D graphics API is OpenGL.
The standard 3D audio API is OpenAL.
The standard 2D graphics API is SDL (which is a shame, because Allegro is much easier).
The standard 2D GUI API is XLib (with higher level GUIs made from it).
The standard packaging format is RPM.
He's got a point on installers. While there are several installers, there is no common installer/uninstaller. This is where I think that all major distributions are failing horribly. It doesn't matter if the installer is apt, urpmi, up2date, or yum. All the major distributions need to pull their heads out of the asses, and get together to agree on a single installer.
It didn't matter to me what package format was chosen as the standard, but RPM format (actually an RPM format subset) was chosen. All those Debian distributions are doing more harm than good by not adopting it. There are areas where diversity is good, such as the back-end implementation), and areas where diversity is not good (the presentation layer).
The installer falls squarely in the presentation layer, with the package format arguably having a foot in both places: users will be looking for a specific type of distributable, so they should have to look for only one type. They shouldn't have to care about the container format (RPM or Deb).
Re:In indiana... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:In indiana... (Score:5, Funny)
Terrorist targets? (Score:3, Funny)
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thats nice (Score:3, Funny)
oh wait, i guess it does.
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One or two Linux "flavors" are not enough? (Score:5, Insightful)
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I am fine with that, but how are they going to be able to download viruses and gamez?
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Re:One or two Linux "flavors" are not enough? (Score:5, Insightful)
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A heterogenous Linux environment isn't the end of the world, nor an administration nightmare.
True, the world would still continue to revolve, but IMHO if you're having to support a heteroegenous Linux environment, you're creating more problems than solving. As an admin, nothing could be easier than maintaining a single huge group of Windows XP corporate clients--especially when the hardware was virtually the same no matter where you go on campus. If there's a problem all I had to do was push updates t
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And if there is a vulnerability, all an attacker has to do is push a virus/worm for a single OS.
Re:One or two Linux "flavors" are not enough? (Score:5, Interesting)
The article mentions SLED and RedHat. They also mention Ubuntu being used successfully by a different school district, I presume because of the edubuntu project. No sane admin is going to roll out 10 distros, "apt-get emerge rpm, Oh sod it install the bloody thing yourself!". However what's happening here is that different school districts are approving A distro for use on their systems, not some poor support tech trying to work out what distro is being used in a given instance.
If my experience is anything to go by students who are introduced to linux early find Windows is broken if they are asked to move over. Employers of Indianna, prepare to be swamped with demands for cheaper OS installs in 6 years!!
Re:One or two Linux "flavors" are not enough? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:One or two Linux "flavors" are not enough? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's better that they struggle and understand then never understand at all.
I'm pretty good with math (3 semesters of college calculus so far - still having fun), but some of the stuff is just easier to see visually. In fact, a lot of time in my classes has been spent with the professor drawing really bad diagrams on a blackboard.
The thing that's key about computer graphs is that you can vary the parameters and see the results immediately. "What happens if I make 'A' negitive?" Once you've experimented yourself and visually seen the result, you have a much better chance of remembering it later.
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I started with Mandrake 9.2, suffered like hell for a few months, two years later I use Ubuntu at work and Gentoo ~x86 a home.
So as long as they see something else than Windows, it will be a largely beneficial experience, making th
Re:One or two Linux "flavors" are not enough? (Score:4, Insightful)
The kids aren't going to have any say in what distro gets chosen (which is fine, in my opinion). But each district's IT department will certainly have that degree of autonomy.
Incidentally, that's also the response to the fears of too many distros. It's not going to be the department of education (as in statewide) micromanaging things, doing OS installs and maintenance, etc. It's going to be the IT people in every individual district
Districts need to train, hire/fire people for the required skillsets, and will probably also have time to work out a way to come into line with the state's policy. That'd be my expectation anyway.
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Apparently you missed the part where the student stated that he "Didn't care" whether it was Windows or not. Do you really think he's going to be concerned about which Linux distro is installed?
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It's true that I did not explain myself 100% clearly:
The "let them choose" meant that kids might develop prefences toward using a certain distro if more than one present in the same classroom?
And if ever such a thing would become apparent, it is logical to equip more PCs with the given distro.
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Those of us who inhabit nerd havens such as
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Re:One or two Linux "flavors" are not enough? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't have anything against it but if it is under the state grant program, it should try to standarize on one or two flavors of Linux
Err, no. The "biodiversity" of Linux is one of its strong points, and one that is frequently brought up by supporters of OSS. If we start "standardizing", then all we are doing is replacing Windoze by 2 (or 3) different Linux distros. Better, but not the optimal solution.
Of all people, students should be the first to learn how to cope with new OSes (or distros) as they arise, to build fundamental computer skills instead of learning through the click here to do this approach.
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1) Linux is not well documented. Fundamental computer skills would have to involve wading through tens of thousands of entries in mailing lists archives, reading pages and pages of forums, patiently asking the same question for 2 days in an IRC channel before somebody knows the answer, trying driver versions 0.96.3-r1, 0.96.3-r2, 0.97.5, 0.97.6 (oops. with
Complete tosh. (Score:2)
There is also plenty of material in the Internet.
All my Linux problems have been solved so far by research on the Internet (I have been using Linux for more than 10 years professionally).
I can't say the same for Windows, on ocassions you just hit a brick wall and that is the end of that.
In regards to hardware one just have to stick to supportd one. That is the way it is with an OS that is not
Those aren't problems for kids at school (Score:3, Insightful)
Your point #1 (lack of documentation) is valid in the Real World, but not for kids at school. If anything, the most important computer-related thing schools teach is how to do research. Considering what you said, Linux is perfect for that! ; )
Besides, both points are irrelevant anyway because these computers are going to be administered by the school system's IT department, not the students. Presumably, they (a) know what they're doing, and (b) will buy compatible hardware.
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Then offer course credit incentives for students to work on it writing open source code and contributing however else they can. Surely out of 22,000 students there has to be a couple of coders, a couple decent graphic designers, a couple people that can write documentation... I would have killed for the opportunity to write useful code that might have gone somewhere in some of my CS courses at uni.
Stigma (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Stigma (Score:4, Interesting)
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I just installed Ubuntu the other day, and I've got a question about that: are there any disadvantages to Automatix or EasyUbuntu in terms of integration with the normal package management system? What makes either of them superior to the other, or to doing it manually with Synaptic?
Re:Stigma (Score:5, Interesting)
If the students require it, just run it using a terminal service.
At my University I can just type "windows" at the Linux command prompt, and up pops a connection to a Windows server (Citrix based software I think). Then the colleges can also just pay licences per usage, so that they don't have to have multiple installations just in case someone needs it.
For heavy use, perhaps VMWare is required, but the terminal experience is very fast for me at least. It can't compare with VNC etc.
Just so that you know (Score:2)
Yay, more to choose from... (Score:4, Funny)
Can someone explain to me the Relevance (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Can someone explain to me the Relevance (Score:5, Informative)
Indiana is quietly attempting to become a leader in the Tech Industry in small steps taken by the government (instead of the populace).
Our telecommunications bill was a step in the right direction.
Bayh actively supports Net Neutrality (with Dick Lugar seeming to favor it, as well).
State-sponsored research into improving the conditions for tech companies here in Indiana (and taking necessary steps to accomplish this).
Governer Daniels voicing his desire for Indiana to move from manufacturing to tech; and expressing his wish to stop the 'brain drain'
This recent OSS adoption
Not all of it will pan out, of course. But, I applaud my state knowing that it is trying to move toward these goals. Amazing, considering how 'red' we are.
Re:Can someone explain to me the Relevance (Score:4, Interesting)
And how much are they going to need to spend on training up the competent tech support?
I remember MS claiming the TCO total cost of ownership is lower for Windows than for linux because of training...
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Re:Can someone explain to me the Relevance (Score:4, Informative)
A HUGE amount. Microsoft's "educational" discounts are laugable. I don't know the exact numbers for Indiana, but I have experience in setting up a large linux network for a school and the money we saved on software allowed us to purchase much better hardware. All of our workstations are now equiped with flat panel monitors.
I remember MS claiming the TCO total cost of ownership is lower for Windows than for linux because of training...
MS's claims are just marketing garbage.
The school that I volunteer for has 2 ltsp servers and 60 thin clients. Since the thin clients have no hard drives, I never have to fix them. If there is a need for a new software package to be installed or account maintenance, I just remote into the server.
Much easier solution for me personally than servicing 60 windows XP computers, regardless of how locked down they are.
As far as training goes.. well, the first year I just made the system look like windows : screenshot [cox.net]
As the year went on, I noticed that neither students(k-8) nor teachers had any problems using the web browser or open office in linux. I can't imagine spending much money on training, becuase the system was more than intuitive enough.
As far as training for any new network administrators goes, sure. However in this day and age it would be silly for a network administrator to not put some effort into learning linux.
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This could lead to a situation like Bavaria (Score:2, Interesting)
Now the smart and educated come to Bavaria to find a decent job...
From what you tell Indiana tries exactly the same
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I don't know about the states but I have a feeling Linux is still just as a) unknown b) scaring c) looked at as a server OS to the general population as here in Sweden.
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Usually people are afradi from the unknown. By reducing the average level of computer ignorance, a) will pass, which will eliminate b) and while c) can still be valid for some, it seems that the whole issue will not be a problem once the general computer literacy level will raise above the level we have today. As with many things, this is also only a matter of patience and a moderate will to learn and adapt to new things. Which, mind you, is one of the mos
Because Linux is a minority OS. (Score:3, Insightful)
As long as Linux is not in 20% or 30% of desktop machine (at least) it is worth building a body of evidence showing why Linux is a valid alternative.
Indiana (Score:2, Interesting)
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Well... (Score:2, Interesting)
All that to say that 22,000 students using Linux probably translates into ~150 Linux desktops in the better funded schools.
But maybe Indiana has a better public school system than California. Wouldn't be surprised.
Re:Well... (Score:5, Interesting)
Using Linux here might appeal from an older equipment standpoint, but computer labs are not a priority here in the first place.
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Sounds like most of America, actually. Then again, when you are spending person A's money on person B, these things happen.
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And the tax money spent on athletic programs, ug!
I would like to hope that this is a step in the right direction.
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Common Installer? (Score:5, Funny)
./configure && make && make install
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My Dream Installer (Score:3, Insightful)
Brings up an interesting point there as well. Why does there need to be a common installer? There's no common installer in Windows.
Ahh, but a single installer executable can easily run on most all Windows versions. The same cannot be said of a single installer for all Linux distros. Secondly, installation on Windows is a mess. Part of the reason for moving away from Windows is because they have not fixed problems like these. To make Linux a really good desktop, it should be a lot better than Windows so t
fitter, happier, more productive (Score:5, Insightful)
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... and then even happier and less productive. (Score:2)
Unfortunately this effect only lasts until your Linux users discover Cedega.
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Me too. But not because the lack of Counterstrike et al. but because most things come easier or faster or more natural to do, other things can be customized to the extent that I feel it comfortable, and yes, because it's "better, more secure, faster or anything"
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Don't believe me? There's a utility called 'screen'. It's one of the most amazingly useful utilities ever. I defy you to find a web
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Highly insecure, but it has been one of the most useful apps i've used also.
Solution (Score:4, Insightful)
The more users, the more development, the more programs, the more users, the more
I'm very happy with this, and I don't mind what distribution they use.
22,000 is a good start (Score:2)
Especially these are students that will work later at companies. The Linux knowledge (using a Linux desktop != not server admin) is a plus!
It's the same viral marketing that MS has used for ages: Let students work with our products later in their working life they want to use the same software tools they are familiar with.
Unhappy with SLED 10 (Score:3, Interesting)
Luckily I installed another harddisk in my pc before trying to install.
It looked great but I ran into some installation problems very unlike other SUSE installs I have tried. Even on my notebook it has worked perfect, even WiFi and Bluetooth.
Although the install itself ran fine. Getting the right drivers for my nVidia (6200) card failed. I got a trial key and went on to install the drivers in hope of running XGL. But it failed to make use of the card so I ended up installing my own drivers and forced XGL to enable. I did get that to run but then I had another problem, which was a show stopper.
I was happy to see the Citrix client included, but it seems to have problems with multiple desktops on this SLED 10. When I change to another desktop, all the Citrix applications vanishes. I can see in the process list that they still are there, I just can't see them. That worked great on the others.
So now I am installing it again from scratch, with KDE instead of Gnome, without XGL to see if it works then. Interesting to see what happens when I try to register the same license again. I hope that it was just XGL that broke Citrix.
Change and fear (Score:2, Insightful)
A common API? (Score:5, Interesting)
Like libc? I mean, seriously, I want some of the stuff that guy's smoking. First they go to great length explaining how they diversify on Red Hat, SUSE, Ubuntu and (sigh) Linspire and then he asks for a common API and installer? Like one kid stated when asked which system it preferres, either Linux or Windows the reply was:"Who cares?" Same thing here: who cares for a "common installer" (technically impossible) or a "common API" (it's there: libc, GTK, Qt, etc.). As a user you either see a Gnome or a KDE desktop anyway.
"Mike Huffman, special assistant for technology at the Indiana Department of Education", gimme a break!
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synaptic and yumex can install nearly everything depending on your choice of package manager. They are the common installers. Conversion between the two formats is simple, although not yet fully integrated into the GUI of many distros (please proove me wrong). Installation is from a common repository... it's very possible and debian users have been doing it for years.
If you do find some of the shit that Mike has been smoking, pl
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Indiana Doing Something Progressive? (Score:2, Informative)
Anyway I'm glad to see this so maybe my child will get to use a real computer with a real OS other than at gome.
And meanwhile... (Score:2)
What should be scaring MS (Score:2)
If that response from a student aka future consumer hasn't got Ballmer looking for clean shorts, the guy deserves to be thrown to the curb at once (not that he doesn't deserve that already). Any businessman who's let their primary product become a who-cares to the next round of buyers has failed miserably.
single OS = bad for students (Score:2)
It isn't specific on how much MS related software they'll still be using but if the main reason for switching to linux is cost cutting then it's possible they won't have office, photoshop etc. running under WINE. Yes there are alternatives to all these programs but employers when looking at your CV, are looking specifically for Excel, access, photoshop experience. While having Open office and GIMP
Re:gotta get my eyes checked. (Score:4, Funny)
And remember... (Score:3, Funny)
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You know, there are people on this planet, who think knowing only the other os and nothing else is what damages your reputation. And also, FYI, people are capable to learn and use not just only one os, and there are plenty of tasks that can be done with plenty of tools, not just one and nothing else. If I'd hire someone who said that can do word processing, then I'd expect him/her to know word processing, not using a one and only word processor
Think of all the secretaries... (Score:2)
Some of them made the transition to MS Word. Just maybe they could handle open office.
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Maybe it would be great, if it were true (Score:5, Informative)
And in a flash 22000 Indiana students can't use websites using Flash.
Of course they can see Flash animations. Personally, I find more than 95% of Flash animations on websites to be a waste of time and bandwidth, and currently disable Flash, but there are several Flash plugins for Linux, including one from Adobe.
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If you ask me, it is a perfect way to say, "Sorry, no Flash for you." No more annoying Flash adverts, or other exploits.
Also, this is a perfect time for them to prevent alot of things - remove the CD/DVD-ROM drives from the cases (or alternatively, setup the optical drive access to be ROOT-only), disable installation of P
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If your distro's set up right, then double clicking on the firefox install .exe will install it using WINE... you just need to change the command for firefox on your normal shortcut/menu whatever to point to the windows firefox after it's installed... (oh and wrap the path in quotes as well...)
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