Linux Snobs, The Real Barriers to Entry 1347
McSnarf writes "It's not Windows. It's not distro wars. Sometimes it's just the arrogant attitude that keeps people from switching from Windows.
'As I spoke to newbies, one Windows user who wanted to learn about Linux shared the encouraging and constructive note (not) he received from one of the project members. The responding note read:
"Hi jackass, RTFM and stop wasting our time trying to help you children learn.""
duh (Score:5, Funny)
Re:duh (Score:5, Funny)
I managed to escape from that cult, and you can too brother!
Meet me by the fence tonight at 1am. I'll have a van waiting. We can take you to a place where Father Steve will never find you. There is another life out there for you, trust me!
-Eric
Re:duh (Score:3, Insightful)
An arrogant person won't bother to explain why their OS of choice is superior, because they can't be bothered to deal with "idiots".
A zealot will talk your ear off telling you exactly (at least how they percieve it), their OS of choice is superior.
Re:duh (Score:5, Insightful)
Hey! I resemble that remark!
Thanks much, that comment made me laugh out loud. Oddly, while some Mac users can be intolerant fools who sneer at Windows users as "lemmings" and "sheeple" among other much worse things, the Mac community is generally welcoming, civil, and helpful to people who ask questions out of genuine curiosity. And no, we're not some kind of cult who slavishly defend Apple and His Steveness from the Great Ignorant Unwashed. In fact you'll find that Mac users tend to be the most vocal critics of Apple, especially if they do something unpopular; fortunately they've been doing almost everything right in recent years, so there's been an extended honeymoon between Jobs and the faithful. The best description of Mac users' attitude toward Apple is to say that the Macintosh belongs to US, Apple and Steve Jobs are merely its stewards.
The vast majority of us can't be bothered to get into flame wars and childish shouting matches. Unfortunately, the rabid frothing zealots among us (most of whom are completely clueless about Macs in the first damn place) are the ones who give the entire community a bad name. These are the idiots who send obscenity-laced messages to journalists who make even the slightest derogatory remark about Apple, so it's no surprise that the prevailing view in the mainstream press is that Mac users are all "fanatics"; it's mostly only the fanatics they hear from. The rest of us are too busy doing more important things. Like reading Slashdot.
Re:duh (Score:5, Funny)
That's why I Switched(tm) to OpenBSD, the least arrogant OS community!
I can go up to the head development guy, Theo, and he answers all my questions!! Usually the answer is how evil George Bush and Richard Stallman are, and how stupid I am for being a stupid American that supports stupid people and asks stupid questions because I am stupid. I don't know how that solves my problems, but at least he answers!!!!
Stupid Steve Jobs never answered my love letters. Arrogant bastard!!!
An Unfortunate Reality (Score:4, Insightful)
In my experience, I'd have to say this article is right on the money. While snobs can be encountered for just about any OS you care to name, the Linux snobs are particularly shrill. This shrillness may be attributed to a variety of causes, including social ineptitude, feelings of intellectual/moral/fiscal superority, attempted concealment of their own limited knowledge, etc., but there is just no excuse for this sort of behavior. Linux is first and foremost a collaborative effort, and by failing to live up to that ideal, Linux snobs subvert the very point of Linux itself.
Yes, it is true that the answers to your questions are out there...Linux does have copious documentation. But the fact of the matter is that a simple answer to a simple question can do much more than save the newbie hours of combing through MAN pages...it can also foster the sense of community that is the very lifeblood of Linux.
Linux users need to understand that when disillusioned Windows users come to them asking for help with Linux, they effectively become representatives of Linux...ambassadors, if you will...and they need to behave accordingly. Abusing new Linux users for their lack of knowledge, rather than helping them to learn more, only harms the cause.
Just remember....you were a n00b yourself once...
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:5, Funny)
Speak for yourself. After my mother re-partitioned her drive and mounted the smaller one at "/womb" I was compiled from source.
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:5, Funny)
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:5, Insightful)
The Linux Fault Threshold is the point in any conversation about Linux at which your interlocutor stops talking about how your problem might be solved under Linux and starts talking about how it isn't Linux's fault that your problem cannot be solved under Linux. Half the time, the LFT is reached because there is genuinely no solution (or no solution has been developed yet), while half the time, the LFT is reached because your apologist has floundered way out of his depth in offering to help you and is bullshitting far beyond his actual knowledge base. In either case, a conversation which has reached the LFT has precisely zero chance of ever generating useful advice for you; it is safe at this point to start calling the person offering the advice a fucking moron, and basically take it from there. Here's an example taken from IRC logs to help you understand the concept.
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:3, Insightful)
The phrase "Sorry, Linux can't do that" has never crossed a Linux fanatic's lips. However, they defintely don't have any problem with the phrase "It's not Linux's fault! It's the fault of whoever made that device NOT run with Linux!"
-Eric
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:4, Insightful)
That is because such a generalization is often wrong. There are very few things that Linux can not do what so ever.
There ARE many things that requires tons of command line hacking and compiling and other nasty things to get done though. So I guess the true statement would be "Sorry, Linux can't do that easily," but since easy is a relative term I don't expect anyone who considers themselves to be elitist to state such a thing.
The worst thing Linux zealots do is create such a hype (such as a "replace everything with Linux and it will work better") in the first place.
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:4, Insightful)
Which follows a general pattern for Linux:
1) Linux Distros have some infrastructure issue which make it more difficult to use than Windows
2) Linux Zealots spend several years explaining how it's not a problem and you need to grow a bigger nerdpenis
3) Finally someone writes the missing software and everything works great
4) Life moves on.
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:4, Insightful)
-Eric
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:5, Insightful)
This kind of belligerent, vague question is probably the reason this person doesn't get answers. Very few people with actual, genuine clue are going to get involved when the person asking hasn't even tried to make their initial question complete or useful. It not only looks like this person has an attitude but that they are also going to make anyone who answers do a lot of work to get enough clear information out of them, such as their set up and what they've tried already, so they can give an answer. Many people help others on IRC (without being paid, in their own, personal free time) because they enjoy it, and if it looks like someone is going to be unnecessarily hard to help, many will just go do something else.
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:4, Insightful)
And I agree -- if you bought SUSE Linux, and called them up for help, they would reply to a "Why can't I fucking print?". The same goes for most of the other commercial distros. SUSE help desk is remarkably nice. Caldera was as well (many years ago, back when they were their own company). I've called both when I used their distros and they were very helpful.
This is akin to walking up to a group of people talking about computers at a local coffeehouse and saying "Why can't I fucking print?". Can you see the difference?
--
Evan
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:3, Insightful)
Short
- they convey the thinking that most Linux users are snobs or that the problem is worse in Linux and FOSS
- they convey the thinking that snobs are mostly a Linux problem
- they say they talk about barrier to entrance for new Linux users, but strangely enough, these new Linux users always ask highly technical things
Because then, the trolls are out, you know, the people that talk about "snobs", and then, magically, these snobs transforms into "linux users".
I'm refe
Another possibility (Score:3, Insightful)
There's another possibile explantion one should mention:
I think the computer corallary to rule that "once you save someone's life they become your responsibility" is: "once you help someone with a computer-related problem, you become their IS guy". Perhaps
It wasn't always this way (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:3, Insightful)
One of the weaknesses of Linux is that if you have a problem, you often come into direct contact with the developers.
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:5, Insightful)
That may suit you learning style, but for others it is extraordinarily frustrating. We need to be able to include everyone in this community. Users who do not have the inclination, or time, to use trial and error should be able to post on help message boards without getting flamed. Sadly, in the Linux community, noob has become an mark of shame. Its absurd and counter-productive. We do not entice new users very well at all, and it is to our detriment.
Ah, a volunteer (Score:4, Insightful)
So you have hearby volunteerd to sit in an irc channel and answer any and all questions.
oh wait, you can't be arsed? Figures.
We need to be able to include everyone in this community.
Why?
Just that. Why?
As for noob. It is more then being a newbie. Everyone is new to something at least once. There is nothing wrong with that. There is something wrong with expecting others to do your learning for you.
You claim "we" (does that include you) do not entire news users very well. Mmm, odd. You were new once. So was I. So were millions of others. How can that be?
When I was still new to unix (yes I am old) I received plenty of help as well when I later switched to linux. I never been told to RTFM.
Either I was lucky, or polite enough or I showed that I had spent time trying to figure it out on my own before resorting to pestering someone else with it.
I always approach asking for help like asking for directions. I am male. Death first! Well urban male, so being lost for half an hour in freezing weather is about my limit but the idea is, only ask for help as a last resort.
But hey, if your willing to jump in and start asking all the lazy questions I am sure there is a project waiting for your help. Welcome to unpaid tech support hell.
Re:Ah, a volunteer (Score:3, Insightful)
In my experience you hit the nail on the head right there. While the first two are great and important respectively (lucky, polite) it's the third item on your list that gets results. Show the person you are asking that you made a good faith effort to find the answer in the usually voluminous documentation available either with the software itself or on
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:3, Insightful)
You just don't get it, the "average" user gains the most by using the computer to do whatever it is they want to use the computer for, not "experimenting". While there certainly is a class of individuals that fit what you said (and I'm actually amongst those), there are definitely times when I need to get something done, and I don't have the time nor the desire to "tinker". I'd much have an OS
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:4, Insightful)
Why? Why should users spend hours researching something JUST because you did? Sure, they will learn much more about what they are doing in the process but this, to most users, is unacceptable. Here's a silly real world example: say I wanted to send a letter to a friend in another city. Why should I learn how the post office operates in order to send the letter?
People who use Windows and Mac computers have other things to do with their lifes than tinker with getting something to work on the computer. Computers, to the vast majority of computer users, is a tool to fit an end and not a hobby or occupation.
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:3, Insightful)
Because if you didn't your friend would never receive his letter. If you didn't bother to find out how would you know what a post box was or that you had to write an address on the envelope or that you needed an envelope or that you needed to buy a stamp or that you needed to put the letter in a letter box ?
Yes in an ideal world everythin
Re:An Unfortunate Reality (Score:3, Insightful)
Google as the teacher...... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Google as the teacher...... (Score:3, Insightful)
Two Experiences (Score:5, Interesting)
My first college kegger could not compare to the first time I ran Linux. Nor would a kegger ever be as memorable. A free operating system? That works?
A year or two later, I'm in a new class. There's a kid sitting in front of me going on and on about Linux. Up to this point, I've used Debian, Mandrake & Red Hat so I drop a question out there:
Me: "I really like Mandrake, what do you think is the best distribution?"
Student A: "It's obviously Gentoo."
Me: "Gentoo? I haven't even heard of that one..."
Student A: "Well, it's clearly the superior distribution."
Ok, so my first encounter with Linux people working against Linux people in a childish d*ck measuring contest. To my horror, I overheard the following conversation thereafter ensue between him and a person in the class looking for a Linux installation experience:
Student B: "I use Windows and I'm confused even as where to start..."
Student A: "That's easy, just install Gentoo."
Student B: "I
Student A: "They're freely online, you just have to find them and install them--I recommend an ftp install so that you get the latest versions of everything. And with Gentoo, you can just emerge [gentoo-wiki.com] whenever you want to update. "
Student B: "'Emerge'--what does that mean?"
Student A: *snorts* "If I have to tell you, there's no point in you even getting Linux."
And on it went, with Student A asserting his superiority. When I got home, I tried to install Gentoo [gentoo.org]. It took forever, I hit a million snags but eventually got it working. I hated it. After talking again to them, the only reason Student A was using Gentoo was because he had some crazy chipset he needed to compile everything for (a dual AMD setup which was rare back then) and he also revealed that he spent every Sunday night "emerging."
Luckily, I intevened with Mandrake and gave him something close to Windows that an idiot probably could install. I told him all the cautionary advice I had to give and I feel that he most closely identified with me.
The truth is: not all Linux experiences are for everybody.
Jesus Christ, this post is all Linux porn innuendo (Score:5, Funny)
Love and kisses,
esr
Just use Google (Score:3, Insightful)
Preaching to the choir here (Score:5, Insightful)
I read through and a lot of what he was describing sounded like listening to the anonymous cowards on here.
Asking a Mac user which is the best operating system will result in one answer, asking a linux user to discuss the various distros is another.
Audiophiles will deride a newbie for asking silly questions, gamers will take the piss out of n00bs for aiming wrong or asking about the best weapons, hell even office staff will give you a 10 minute diorama about their red stapler, but if you ask them what the differences are they will fly off at the handle.
Nobody knows about all the distros or databases and theres not really a one size fits all solution so people get embedded in their current system.
Sounds like he just found people on their off days, but I agree with the general article contents - it extends to all walks of life and multiple subjects.
And I've not even touched on vi vs emacs
Difference (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Difference (Score:3, Insightful)
There's lots of pay support options for Linux, as well. I'm sure they'll happily guide you through long, drawn out support if they're charging by the minute (with something like Ether [ether.com], anyone can provide that sort of pay service).
What I think they're talking about, however, is the general community. On a Windows-related forum, it is entirely true t
Re: Difference (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep. In internet forums some Linuxers will tell you to RTFM, and some Windowsers will tell you they don't consult for free. I don't see a heck of a lot of difference in the net effect.
Re: Difference (Score:3, Funny)
I do some consulting at the Luthor manor now and then.
Good call. (Score:5, Interesting)
God knows how long I put off learning the ins and outs of Linux distros because of the Linux catch-22: Linux sackriders go on about the superiority of Linux and insist that you're still living in the Dark Ages if you're using Windows, yet if you even feign interest in wanting to learn and perhaps getting some guidance from them, they shun you for being a newbie.
Thank God I'm stubborn and like reading enough that I gorged myself on dozens upon dozens of books so as I had a large enough Linux vocabulary to 'fake it' and subsequently was 'accepted' into certain online Linux cliques. I was then 'allowed' to ask questions and thus was no longer 'out of the loop.'
Seriously, if people are so adamant about making other people aware of the advantages of Linux then for crying out loud, help them learn or at the very least, point them in the right direction. Don't smack them upside the head for not knowing. It's one thing to be a Linux pusher, trying to convince Windows users to try out the alternatives, it's another thing to be a Linux snob and to shun people for not-knowing-yet-wanting-to-know.
I personally don't have enough patience to teach too many people about Linux, especially from scratch. So what do I do when someone asks me about it or wants to learn about it? I give them a whole bunch of useful e-books and related reading materal on CD and tell them to start by taking a bite out of that. I also give them a copy of whatever easy distro I have laying around and tell them to install it on a second computer and just 'play' with it. Then if they're still interested, they've got a decent enough foundation for me (ore more likely someone with more patience) to have a crack at enlightening them further.
Same thing with Windows (Score:4, Insightful)
This isn't really anything to do with Linux. It's "Computer Geek Syndrome," plain and simple -- the feeling of superiority a nerdy, introverted person gets when he realizes he understands something better than someone else does. Some people who only ever use Windows have this same anti-n00b attitude. The only difference is that they don't scare anybody away from using Windows, because all the computers come with Windows installed. Thus, you either put up with that obnoxious nerd when you have computer problems, or you go looking for nicer, knowledgable friends.
The correct way to ask a Linux user a question (Score:5, Funny)
Just do what this guy [bash.org] does and you'll be fine.
I've been saying this for YEARS! (Score:5, Insightful)
Do I care that this will cost me Karma? Nope. You've had it coming, and I've lost Karma before on this so
Bravo! But... (Score:5, Interesting)
I am reminded of the attitudes displayed in Ray Bradbury's story "The Other Foot," in which (for those who may not recall) a town full of black people who emigrated to Mars en masse shortly before World War III find out that they will be receiving white refugees. Their immediate impulse is to start putting "Blacks Only" signs on restaurants and hotels, thus re-creating the situation that they had fled years before, only with themselves at the top.
Many of these "gorilla gurus" have most likely been on the receiving end of derision and scorn for not working with Windows, and have also either been given the same treatment when they started learning about Linux. It becomes like the geek version of the stereotypical fraternity, where these people associate poor manners with the rights of the "initiated," and now that they find themselves in a position of relative power are prepared to make those under them pay and pay and pay.
So much for a possible cause. A solution? Perhaps reminding these people that the same attitudes pervaded the Commodore 64 user groups... and where are they now?
Sad but true (Score:3, Interesting)
Everyone starts out as a newbie at one time -- sorry to burst the bubble of those of you who thought you were imbued with the power of the Linux kernel neo-natally. I remember when I first got into computers back in the TRS-80 era and went to college only to discover there was a whole other side to computers you didn't see in Popular Electronics. I learned C and Unix, and now all these years later I've learned Perl and begun absorbing Linux. I'm not the smartest guy on the block, but I'm also not Gomer Pyle, Web Developer.
I've noticed a tendency for those steeped in the mystique of Linux to see anyone with an opinion contrary to theirs as some kind of infidel, interloper, or at worst, lower that your average lawyer. You dare not point out flaws in logic or try to compare two distributions, lest you incur the wrath of "the gods." A perfect example is my comments yesterday about whether Linux should use proprietary drivers [slashdot.org]. My idea is that yes, it sounds like a good idea, until reverse engineered equivalents are available or someone comes along and starts a graphics company that uses open source exclusively for their drivers. Seems logical enough and the moderators agreed. But some folks thought I was ignorant:
But let me clue you in on something. Torvald's motto of "world domination", is a joke! He isn't being serious! I'm sorry you didn't understand this before, but now you do.
Or that I was suggesting the wholesale destruction of Liunx:
No, if making Linux non-free is the only way to develop greater market share, then you can keep it, binary drivers and all. I'll take freedom, thank you.
I'm sorry to say that some in the Linux community seems to become more insular as each year passes, which is a shame because there are so many great people pushing it. Linux is a great operating system, works well for just about anything you need. It could eat away at Windows' advantage in the marketplace with just some tweaks to make it so easy to install and run that Joe Average doesn't think twice about it. But if the more fanatic members of the community keep treating every new person with a new idea or new question like some kind of pariah, Linux will remain just another operating system.
Grow some skin! (Score:3, Insightful)
However, to universally blame the help provider is completely wrong. The asker may be intruding. The asker may be insufficiently respectful or remunerative in other ways.
Beggars cannot be choosers.
-1, flamebait (Score:3, Insightful)
I've personally helped a half dozen people switch to Gentoo. Not all of us are meanies [though I play one on TV].
This article is pure flamebait.
Tom
Are there community awards? (Score:3, Interesting)
the tinkerer mentality is needed (Score:5, Insightful)
I spent many hours reading books on Linux in general, and countless hours browsing the web for help on UNIX printing. Wound up switching to CUPS, when it was fairly new, and managed to get it working. It was a lot of work and the only reason that I was able to do it was that I had the attitude that the "machine is not going to win."
Most people want everything handed to them, and if you do not have a self started attitude UNIX is fairly intimidating.
The quote that I developed about Microsoft and Bill Gates is this:
"Bill Gates brought computing to the masses, pity they weren't ready for it."
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
No - most people just don't care about computers all that much.
Do you expect people to tinker with their cars?
Do you expect people to tinker with their television's wiring?
Do you expect people to tinker with their plumbing?
Then why would you expect people to tinker with their computers? For most people, a computer is an appliance, and deserving of no more tinkering than a tv. You can whine about people being "not ready" for computers all you want, but that won't change the basic fact that mature technologies don't need to be babied to function properly.
It isn't people that aren't ready; it's computers.
Re:the tinkerer mentality is needed (Score:5, Interesting)
> Most people want everything handed to them, and if you do not have a self started attitude UNIX is fairly intimidating.
No, my friend. Most people want their computer to work, just like any other appliance.
Most people use cars to get them and their families from point A to point B. Those that supercharge their engines, lower the suspension, etc. are a tiny minority.
Same goes for VCRs, dishwashers, telephones, etc. They are supposed to make our lives simpler by saving us time and allowing us to spend it on things we consider more important.
How is a computer different?
People want to communicate, shop, pay bills and trade online, play games, read news, work, organize their photo albums, balance their budgets and many other things a computer is suitable for. They rarely want to spend huge significant time and effort just to be able to do that.
> I spent another 6 months getting my printer to work.
Your perseverance is commendable but are you sure that it was the best use of a 6 months time?
I'm a linux newbie.. (Score:3, Insightful)
I think this helps them out by giving them a good answer but then also showing them how to find other answers on their own.
After all, knowledge is meant to be shared.
"Newbies" as word, should be retired (Score:3, Interesting)
I can't think of a successful industry, anywhere that doesn't invest a significant (if not major) portion of time to new customer acquisition. The word "Newbies" all by itself, reflects a culture hostile to new blood.
Its amazing when you compare Linux culture to Mac culture which almost resembles a cult in its "love-bombing" approach to new members.
I can speak from embarassment more than anything (Score:5, Interesting)
No sooner do I post the question than I find the answer myself since I never stopped looking for answers elsewhere. So then I am faced with the question: Should I attempt to retract my posting or should I reply to my own question with the solution? Most of the time, I decide to do the later. Even though it makes me seem like an idiot answering my own question, I am always hopeful that someone else asks the same question but doesn't find the answer on their own.
The forum I frequent most is the Fedora forum and, frankly, I see no evidence of snobbery on there. So I guess perhaps the answer is to direct people to the forums that are most suited to the users with questions. I know from previous experience that the IRC bullies out there use IRC as a means to maintain a level of social dominance and treat channels like territory. Clearly, they have their own issues to sort out and are best left alone.
This has been true for many years... (Score:5, Insightful)
Way back in the stone age.... sometime in 1997, maybe? Maybe 1998. Not sure. Anyway... Linux was _just_ starting to get deployed occasionally in business. I had a couple of DNS servers up on an early RedHat box. The box lost power... these were just desktop machines sitting in someone's cubicle. (We hadn't grown to the point of needing 'real' servers quite yet, and an actual server room was a year off.) My primary box took a LOT of filesystem damage, and it took me ages to fix it. So I commented in a slashdot thread that ext2 was very fragile, and that it was one of Linux's real weak points.
You just wouldn't believe the crap I got. Slashdot doesn't seem to archive that far back, so I can't give you links, but _most_ of the replies I got blamed me for being stupid. I "should have used a UPS"... ok, I could grant that, but remember we were a shoestring outfit, and we didn't need those on Windows servers. A couple people went off on me for, get this, not knowing how to use a disk editor to find my secondary superblocks and repair with those. I kid you not. Linux was perfect, and ANYTHING that went wrong was obviously the user's fault... to the point that I should know how to manually repair my filesystem. Instead of admitting that the filesystem should survive a power failure, it was my fault for breaking it.
Several years later, after Reiserfs and ext3 came out, we had a similar conversation, also here on Slashdot. Suddenly everyone is all about how great the journaling filesystems are, and how bad ext2 sucks. It was probably even some of the same people, but the original conversation had already been lost, so I couldn't prove it.
People just will NOT criticize software they're emotionally involved with. It's the most ridiculous thing I've seen... these theoretically intelligent, rational software designers that become absolutely insane when you suggest their software is imperfect. Blame the user! "You're just too stupid to use our software. Go away."
Fortunately, there's enough people in the Linux community now that the lunatic fringe doesn't dominate quite like it did, but these people are still out there.
It was ridiculous then, and it's just as ridiculous now. It doesn't happen as much, but it still sucks.
Let me generalize your statement for all zealots. (Score:5, Insightful)
This more generalized statement applies not just to software, but to politics, religion, sports teams, brands of cars, etc., etc. Nationalists, religious zealots, OS zealots, hardcore fans, etc. are all the same kind of person -- someone who cannot handle objectivel criticism of something they love because they think that criticism and disdain are equal. They have a "mommy is never wrong" kind of love instead of a "my kid's not perfect, but I'm still proud of him" attitude.
These people drive me insane in every arena of life that I encounter them in.
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way (Score:4, Insightful)
Before asking a technical question by e-mail, or in a newsgroup, or on a website chat board, do the following:
1. Try to find an answer by searching the Web.
2. Try to find an answer by reading the manual.
3. Try to find an answer by reading a FAQ.
4. Try to find an answer by inspection or experimentation.
5. Try to find an answer by asking a skilled friend.
6. If you're a programmer, try to find an answer by reading the source code.
I might be marked down because of this.
But what I see day to day in the IRC, very few new people do these very simple things.
This is why we go off on them, they dont even try to find the answer on there own.
There's a simple reason for the snobbish attitude (Score:3, Interesting)
Linux was a system for people With The Clue (tm). Without, you were doomed. You had to know more about TCP/IP than that it isn't the Chinese Secret Service to get it working. We turned bitter and jaded, but at the same time, we became really good at what we're doing. We were happy in our little world, flying up on cloud number 9 and look down at the barbarians and illiterates using Windows, who have no clue and get heart attacks when an illegal instruction is encountered and they wonder if the special forces are gonna break down their door for doing something illegal.
Of course, with Windows we could have done the same. In less time. Well, not really, but it was mostly dick waving and about feeling better. Hey, we have The Clue! You, little peon, cannot even THINK about running Linux.
Now, Linux has matured. It grew. vi isn't anymore THE editor. No, neither is emacs, you misguided emacs followers! It's some notepad-ish thingamajig that runs on X. Imagine! Needing X! What decent program dares to refuse running on shell?
Along comes newbie bob. He's seen Linux, he thinks it doesn't look that bad and he decides to give it a shot. A barbarian invading our sacred halls. And he is asking those questions. You know, THOSE. THOSE questions that you've heard a million times before. Those questions that you simply know he will find if he only typed something cryptic (but completely logical for you) into google. Fu.., are you too stupid to google?
Nope. He just doesn't even know what to look for. And, worse, he can't "read" the answer.
The problem lies on both sides of the trench. The old masters and gurus get tired, being asked the same questions over and over, from people who don't even bother looking stuff up and if, don't understand and want EVERYTHING right NOW and WITHOUT wasting a moment to learn. Of course, if you happen to be someone who wants to learn and are unlucky enough to ask the very same question, you will be lumped into the same pot and get a "RTFM, moron".
On the other side are the clueless people who just heard that Linux is Oh So Cool, that you can do "stuff" you can't do with Windows, and who want to do it too. Unfortunately, they're looking for the fast pass. No learning, no understanding, I want a button to click! And the number will rise with the advent of DRM and the promise that Linux might cure this disease.
This is nice to see... (Score:3, Insightful)
I sat nex to a woman on the plane the other day who had tried to get Linux running (she was successful in getting it installed but she wanted to get Apache up and running (I know...a simple task) and get a streaming media server going for her music and movies. After much grief from the LUG she said "Screw Linux" and bought W2K3 Standard server, two clicks of a mouse later she has a streaming media server.
I switched from Linux to Mac at home because, well, Mac just works...and it works well. At my office I no longer use Linux...I use Windows XP because it is the corporate standard...and I don't have much of a choice. The funny thing is, we were on the verge of switching to a Linux desktop in myu department (development) but when the GIS desktop management people got hooked up with their local lugs and were greeted with the same love described by the article and by a few people here, they said "at least Microsft does't tell me to read the fine manual or talk down to me like I'm an idiot. I had my fair share of run-ins with the snobs referred to here, and to be sure, MANY that I know are not snobs and in fact are more than willing to help because they want others to learn and see the value in Linux.
Frankly, I'm over the Linux thing (but I can't change my login name to MacBoyDave). I've been a Linux guy since 1997 and since I boought my first Mac, I've bought two more. I still use Firefox and Thunderbird, To be sure though, I'll never recommend Linux as a desktop to anyone again. I said it at a LUG meeting (and was told to leave) and I'll say it again (and earn the troll mod, I'm sure)...Linux people are their own worst enemy.
And newbies are your best friend... (Score:5, Insightful)
If a user can't figure out how to do something, that is a problem to be dealt with. The reason that MS is overhauling Office 2007 so radically is based on user feedback and studies. Granted, it may not work, but if it does, it will keep Office on top of the heap (and may lead to some interesting ideas in other applications). When a user has a hard time doing something, it is a chance to make something better, more effective, and maybe, just maybe, to learn something new.
The problem is that too many open source projects seem to exist to reinforce one's view on what software should be and must be. So, negative feedback is just reinforcement that the developers "really get it", and that these "newbies" don't. After all, why bother making software anybody can use? If the cool people are using it, and want to join the club, what else do you want? How better to prove you are smarter, better, more of a hacker, whatever than to make people jump through hoops to provide they have what it takes.
I think OS projects have done a good job in attracting coders and developers, but sometimes, it takes more than that to make a successful piece of software, and too many projects suffer from a myopic mindset of what makes a piece of software work or not.
Finally, I think too many people have a overdeveloped sense of superiority from the mere fact that they use an a particular OS, browser, tool, etc. Sure, it's understandable, but meanwhile, there are tons of people that just want to do something at work or at home, and could care less if the software is open source or not, because it doesn't add any value for them. And until this mindset is address, the RTFM responses will continue.
Culture of Hazing (Score:5, Insightful)
You're introduced with verbal abuse and treated like a complete sub-human moron. Then, you gradually get promoted and you pass on the tradition of bashing newbies.
As with any "geeky" culture, the Linux crowd has a tendency to attract people with some issues:
-socially challenged individuals ignorant or apathetic toward others
-marginalized zealots of a "cult" technology (misunderstood or cast aside by the dominant paradigm)
-insecure, passive-aggressive people with a chip on their shoulder
Not all Linux-heads are like this, but like religious fanatics, it only takes one or two loudmouths to misrepresent the whole movement to newcomers or outsiders.
Now, if you want to reply with a flame or you feel a little defensive about what I've typed here, you might want to evaluate the motives behind your emotional response. I'm not talking about everyone in the linux community, I'm just making an observation about the types of people I've worked with in IT and the linux community over the last 15 years and these are some tendencies of my own as well as those around me. Some, if not most, are helpful and encouraging.
If you're one of those jerks (I've seen alot of them here on Slashdot), get help. Learn to be patient. Don't continue the chain of abuse, grasshopper.
Part of the problem is the collaboration (Score:3, Interesting)
Microsoft does not have this problem because you need to get past security to get into the conference room. Linux can't implement this because people will just say they are getting *more* snobbish.
But there is a more important problem. In Linux it literally is 1000 or more times easier to find and walk into that conference room than to find the documentation or call the support line. Real, usable documentation has got to be easily locatable, just by knowing the name of the program you are trying to use. Unfortunatley "man" pages are still the best, if "man xyz" does not say "no documentation available" it will actually produce the information I need. I have yet to see this with any html system or google where you can spend hours searching (ie a clear "you will not find what you are looking for" would help).
Also the command line needs some work. It is not unfriendly because it is not a GUI, but because it is lacking some stuff that too many programmers think is "gui stuff". A previous poster complained about the difficulty in telling somebody how to read a README, getting them stuck in less or vi. But the "noobie" apparently was able to locate the README file easily using the command line. They knew it was there, but not how to read it. They were told "try vim or cat or less", but that is just stupid. Why doesn't the command line let you type the name of the damn file (ie type "README") and it then acts exactly like those GUIs and open the file in the GUI text editor. Too many idiots think that somehow this function is impossible unless there is a mouse and you push the button twice. Get with it.,
My RTFM Story (Score:4, Insightful)
The new version crashed upon startup. The website hadn't had anything posted about upgrade problems. So I went to the IRC channel for GAIM and asked them if there was an issue. The channel had the usual 'Welcome to GAIM' text. Two developers were in the channel at the time.
One developer told me to read the site about and check that channel. Again, neither had been updated. The second developers called me an idiot, and said I should know more about GTK. The GAIM project has just updated to GTK 2.6 from 2.4; 2.6 is not Win98 compatible.
So I asked if there was work around. The next 20 minutes the second developer berated me for asking such stupid questions with the first developer 'Amen-ing' everything he said.
Finally a third developer who came into the channel and flipped out at the immature attitude of the first two. #3 told me the whole story about the new version and GTK. The third developer changed the title on the channel and left to put a note on GAIM.
While that person was away I asked if they have been a lot of problems with GTK for while. I was then told that they were thinking about dropping development on Windows because to many Windows people were using GAIM, and not enough Linux people.
After all that I left the channel, changed my name, and came back to see what was going on. Two more people came in with same basic questions on GAIM and GTK. I was able to divert the wrath of the cruel developers and actually give the people some help.
So there's my horror story with OSS and OSS tech support. I still use GAIM on occasion, but I and most of my friends are moving over to Google Talk
Someone who's not a Linux Snob (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:5, Insightful)
My story, aside from parent: I'm trying to install Mailman a year or so back. I have a base Debian install. I'm stuck. I RTFM. It's not that I can't, or that I don't want to, it's that I quite simply don't understand what it's telling me to do. I don't know what an Exim director is, and the manual thingy doesn't really care to say, only that I need to configure Mailman to work with it. (Since then, it's been updated to be a bit more descriptive. I just checked.)
So, I ask. The response? A snub. Worded from a community member to a third person for me to read: "Maybe the problem isn't Mailman or any of the other awesome software he's running, it's the user not reading all the available documentation."
I note that I read it, but I don't understand it. No response at all.
These days, I have one Debian box with ZoneMinder and Mailman sitting here and everything else is still Windows. I'm quite happy with that.
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:5, Insightful)
Open Source software documentation reminds me of Wikipedia: read it for help, but if it's not written yet, write it then read it.
Yes, I know the software comes with no warranty or support, but the notion of "you get what you pay for" is as strong as ever in many circles.
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:3, Informative)
It is a posterchild for how software (free or commercial) MUST be developed. A spec is written first and the software is written to comply to it. The spec doubles up as documentation and is available online with a reasonable glossary and index.
As far as mailman on Debian is concerned a person who has RTFM-ed should have encountered the cut-n-paste example in the
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:4, Insightful)
And how much effort would it have taken to have courteously replied with that exact piece of information instead of a snub?
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:4, Insightful)
I do not recall myself replying with that though for many years now (I do not hang out on IRC though).
In fact I do not recall myself with a RTFM reply which does not point to a specific FM for many years now (7+ at least).
It is not snobbish and snubbish to tell someone to RTFM. It is snobbish and snubbish to tell someone to RTFM without telling where to RTFM.
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:5, Insightful)
In a way, I think the very acronym, RTFM, is snobbish but that's just from a person who was deeply involved in the OS Wars in the mid to late 90's.
When people who are new to a discussion group or IRC channel ask a simple (to the experienced) question and receive a RTFM response, they can be quite offended by the apparent harsh reaction. They see Read The F'ing Manual and think, "How rude! What a bunch of snobs" and don't ask again or they become defensive and respond in kind.
Whether experienced people know that RTFM is a casual response or not is irrelavant. The new guy doesn't know that will more than likely be offended. That, IMO, is a barrier to people migrating to Linux (or any other OS for that matter).
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:3, Insightful)
"do you know how to do what XXXYY does in perl in php?"
"Not, RTFM"
That is not rude, it simply means, no I do not know how, but should be in the manual.
It's all in the wording. In these days of instant communication we tend to abbreviate too much and many times we are mistakenly taken as rude or impolite or a snob.
Among your friends, it might not be a problem, but to a complete stranger and "noob" it gives the impression that you are an arrogant prick than ca
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:5, Insightful)
"RTFM" is still a response which turns off users and sends them back to Windows. I'm very much a Linux newbie myself, but when someone asks a simple question that I can answer and know where to find it in the documentation, I give them both.
Someone asks how to get a directory listing in the command line. You could:
a) tell them to RTFM
b) copy and paste the entire FM so they don't have to do any work
c) Tell them that the command is "ls", and then tell them where to look for more information on switches and such.
Option A shrinks the Linux user base. Option B does not encourage the poster to learn how to find answers for themselves. Option C gives them a quick answer to their question and tells them where to find more information.
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:4, Informative)
I've not personally tried Debian, but, I have heard the community there isn't exactly 'newbie friendly'.
I've tried RH back in the day, and Slackware was my first Linux try, back in the early 90's. I've found so far, the most friendly to newbs distro, is probably Gentoo. The forums [gentoo.org] are a great place to look for info, and also easy to get even easy questions answered. The community seems pretty tolerant of questions that 'have been asked before'.
I've never had much a problem finding help with any distro I've tried in the past tho...but, then again, I learned early on, to start a USENET post with something like "OK, I've tried, this, this, this and this...and am still stuck, does anyone have any links or suggestions?" Just to show that I've tried on my own and am now stuck. That usually got a good response. I also used to be more active in USENET groups....if people see you posting to help others, they'd more likely be willing to help you.
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:4, Insightful)
Now I may be a little "more" patient than some. When I started out with linux, I pretty much always would google, browse list archives, etc. BEFORE I would post my question, and when I did eventually post my question, I would include steps of what I have done already, the lists I have browsed, and the parts of the docs that I didn't really understand.
This technique has, 99.9% of the time, let to helpful answers, and not just responses like RTFM.
Questions from people where it is blatantly obvious they have done none of the aforementioned steps piss people off. My favorite questions to ignore are the ones where it is obvious that they haven't read the docs, and want step by step hand holding, as if it is their right as a newbie to not have to research anything, they typically go something like this: "I want to setup my webserver, I'm a newbie and just want step by step instructions, I don't have time to RTFM, or search google. I have posted this question before and all I got was RTFM, or no response. I need it done now for my job, it's an emergency! What is up with all these rude people out in linux land?"
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:3, Insightful)
The debian community is very friendly, for certain values of friendly. The old saw "give a man a fish, feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime" applies here. I would consider teaching people to be self sufficiant to be the friendliest option, and I try to do so. But many people just want their fish now and refuse to be taught. They then criticize the linux community as being u
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:4, Insightful)
I completely agree with you. That is why I always laugh really hard when open source advocates say that using this kind of software will yield "free support" (in the form of forums) and online documentation. For some (a very small fraction) of projects it may be true but not for a lot of (and not only small, just look at the KDEVELOP documentation [slashdot.org], with hunderds of sections without content).
And if you go to the "free support" you will only get RTFMs or "try playing with X and Y values".
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:5, Insightful)
This happened to me. I was interested in hacking my TiVo (standalone 540-series) which is pretty much unhackable without a PROM modification. But I had managed to look through some of the files that I'd copied off the TiVo hard drive and I had some questions about one of the file formats. I looked through the SeriesII forum as well as a lot of searching and didn't find the answers to my questions, so I posted. Big mistake. :(
Please understand, I'm not new to Linux. I've been teaching a Linux Internals course for a few years now, as well as device driver development, kernel debugging, and so forth. I know a little bit about the Linux kernel. What I didn't know was the boot process used on the TiVo. I was slammed by the forum moderator ("RTFM in the Newbies section"). I thought I had done that, after already spending hours+hours of searching and reading posts that were too old to apply to my unit.
Until... I went back to the newbie forum and read every one of the sticky articles and I found 80% of the information I was looking for (sigh). Part of the problem was that the newbie forum has about 15 sticky articles, some of them with 40 pages of posts in a single thread. Experience had taught me that most of those are too old to apply to my unit, so I would open the thread and jump to the last page, working backwards through the thread, to see if I could find something relevant. Well, the information was actually in the first few posts -- the community had been editing that post and updating it as time went by.
My point to all this is that newbies often post in an area that is for developers; they should start with places like linuxquestions.org [linuxquestions.org] or other generic Q&A sites, then progress from there. The people that frequent those sites want to help others, not write code. They're the newbie's best chance of having their questions answered.
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't feel bad. That's not the actual problem. The problem is trying to treat a forum like a book. It isn't one, and it never will be.
In particular forums are collections of flat databases. We invented hierarchical databases (like just about every filesystem we use today) for a reason - some information simply does not organize well in a flat format.
The web is design
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:3, Informative)
There are many like this, no doubt. But a lot of it depends on the size of the project and the types of users who typically use it.
In general, mail servers mailing list are the most abrasive group of asswipes I have ever experienced. Cyrus-imap is occupied by a bunch of personalities that are just begging to be blown up. I've never see a better example of your comment to WTFM and then RTFM and meanwhile STFU. It was simply because of the utter lack of support that I bailed on the project entirely. I t
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Nope (Score:4, Insightful)
I think your counterexample is worse than his analogy. It's true that most people don't know how to operate Linux, but those same people for the most part don't know how to operate Windows. They would be just as inept at one as they are at the other, and the rote-learned "skills" *cough* they have translate pretty much exactly from one desktop to the other. So I don't see how their ignorance is an issue, since it affects every operating system pretty much equally.
I guess that's the snobbishness coming in to play...
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:4, Insightful)
The silence in response to the "I read it but didn't understand it" post underscores the fact that the original responder DIDN'T HAVE ANY CLUE AND SHOULD HAVE KEPT THEIR MOUTH SHUT.
I fail to see how anyone can think "you're not paying me, so I can be an asshole" is a valid train of thought.
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:3, Insightful)
No, but calling someone names or telling them to "you're not reading the docs" does. If you can't help, what gives you the right to berate, belittle and bitch? How about just NOT POSTING A REPLY?
The concept is a twist on "If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all." In the context of support -- paid or free -- if you can't help, then don't post. For the record, saying "RTF
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:5, Insightful)
You know, I just can't imagine why anyone would call Linux users snobs.
-Eric
RTFM! (Score:3, Interesting)
For example, say I want to learn how to do something using the command line. Googling a phrase that describes what I want to do rarely yields optimal results. Since I don't know what the command is, I can't type "man thing I want to do".
If you know a good solution to this problem (like a book that is worth reading/
Re:RTFM! (Score:5, Informative)
Read man's man page some time. the -k option is like the apropos command (another thing you should look into), it searches for the word you supply in the title and description of all the manual pages. So man -k format shows you all the pages that have the word "format" in their title or short description. If that still doesn't show you what you need, man -K "some arbitrary string" does a full-text search of the entire manual for "some arbitrary string".
I'm not ragging you for this or anything, I'm just amazed at how few people actually read man's man page.
Re:Linux sNOBs (Score:4, Insightful)
I have heard this argument before (and even used it when I was very new to Linux) however there are often many reasons to *not* use the GUI tool. First of all, if you are on the Apache mailing list asking about config info for httpd, how can you possibly expect the person *helping you* to be familiar with the distro you use and what GUI tools are available for that distro? And even if they *are* familiar with it, how do you know they even use the Desktop? None of the servers I administer even have X on them. Does that make me less qualified to help you? I think not. Secondly, I have seen many times where the GUI tool made such a mess out of the config files (and borked the entire part of the system you are trying to get running) that the *only* way to fix them was on the command line. Now while I agree with what you are saying in some respect, I dont think it is as cut-n-dry as you make it out to be. I do remember thanking a higher power for KPPP when I had to set up dial-up as a complete newb (circa 1998 or so). Often times just because there is a GUI tool for the job that doesn't make it the *right* tool for the job. That being said, a quick explanation of the command line you are asking someone to run is not asking for too much either.
Re:Hah, no kidding (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hah, no kidding (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Hah, no kidding (Score:5, Insightful)
I generally agree with you, but in this case they were in a support channel. If somebody sets up a support channel, it's reasonable to expect to get support there. At the very least, you deserve not to get berated.
Re:Hah, no kidding (Score:3, Insightful)
Bizarre (Score:5, Insightful)
I've gotten that too. It's very strange. I'm looking in the Wiki because I don't know the answer. When I see the answer isn't there, I'm not the person you want to edit it. What am I supposed to do, write down how I'd *like* it to work?
I'm not sure what kind of person Linux snobs think they're dealing with. Snobs seem to assume that ordinary users aren't asking questions because they want to know the answers, but because they want to catch the snobs in a mistake. I wonder what social group interacts that way. Oh, geeks. Right.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bizarre (Score:5, Funny)
I've found the best way to deal with the snobs - and get a useful answer - is this. Don't just ask "I've googled for it already, but I can't find a way of doing foo with bar". All this will yield is "Well google harder" kind of responses.
Instead, say something like "On Windows, it's really easy to do foo with bar, but it's completely impossible under Linux! This is awful!". You will immediately be deluged with indignant responses telling you exactly how to do whatever it was you were trying to accomplish rather than an RTFM brush-off.
Re:Hah, no kidding (Score:3, Insightful)
I've never understood the attraction of IRC. I understand it even less when seeking technical help.
Not on
I can tell you why (Score:5, Insightful)
The attitude is prevalent, and ignores completely the service aspect of providing a positive customer experience. You might have the greatest product in the world, but if nobody can install it or configure it, then it's really quite worthless. Sure, the "target audience" can figure it out, but all to often the target audience is just the myopic developer, and everybody else who is exactly like him/her. Oddly enough, this planet has a great many inhabitants who might gain benefit from the great software product, if only the creator bothered to consider even passable service to go along with it.
I'll blatantly link [slashdot.org] to my own comment thread from another story just a couple days ago, which is exactly on this same topic. There I was flamed for suggesting that having good service is just as important as having a good product, and that there is a large range between the "I'll do anything if you pay me" attitude and the "if you don't like it my way get lost" attitude.
By the way, I highly doubt it is only the Linux/FOSS community, but it does seem disproportionate; if nothing else, given that it's a smaller community, finding the odd non-snob is somewhat more difficult.
UNIX once was a revolt against snobbery (Score:5, Informative)
UNIX was in a way a revolt against the snobbery of the mainframe culture. UNIX was named in contrast with MULTICS -- MULTICS was this massive time-sharing mainframe OS coming out of MIT which was supposed to have all kinds of whizbang security and protection features. UNIX was to be the single-user (at least initially) "personal" counterpart to the time-sharing Borg hive of MULTICS. UNIX ran on a PDP 11 minicomputer while MULTICS required a ponderous Burroughs mainframe.
The MS-DOS PC along with the Windows follow-on was a revolt against UNIX. UNIX had become the OS of choice for VAXen and had become the ossified mainframe OS of its day against which the PC was the revolt.
I don't think you will have people who are complete noobs having any issues with a *nix -- people are perfectly happy with OS-X. The people you will have trouble with are the people who cut their teeth on DOS and later Windows, who have memories of what they went through in the VAX days, and any hint of inadvertent condensension from Linux gurus is enough to give them flashbacks of their old tormenters.
Re:Hah, no kidding (Score:4, Interesting)
First I got yelled at for asking the same question twice in 10 minutes, because it was unanswered. Despite there being something like 250 people listed in the room, NOBODY was chatting whatsoever-- and they yelled at me for asking the same question twice in ten minutes!
Then I got yelled at because this was "the wrong room" to ask questions about setting up hardware. I asked what the right chat room was, and the answer was basically, "I don't know, but not here." Gee, that's helpful... the Ubuntu forums (that the Support menu links to!) told me to come here, and you tell me to go away.
Then I was yelled at because someone in the IRC channel who was trying to help me (which I do appreciate) asked me to paste in the error log. So I did, and I got yelled at by someone else for "spamming" the channel with 8 lines of text. (To remind you, this is a channel with NO conversations going on except mine.) God forbid I paste in 8 lines of text and spam the 248 people sitting in the room and not even talking at all.
I've had equally bad experiences with mailing lists. Look, if I want to answer a specific question, I don't want to have to go through the effort of signing up for the mailing list, whitelisting it in my email client, "confirming" that I actually signed up for the mailing list, posting my question, then waiting for an answer that may or may not come.
Please, PLEASE, use web forums for support. They are far, far superior. They are searchable, they are linkable, they aren't full of 248 people doing absolutely NOTHING except complaining when other people are being helpful.
And whoever runs the IVTV project: What is the point of creating drivers that are so difficult to install that no mortal could possibly do it? What's the point? Why not spend your time counting cracks in the sidewalk, it seems like that would be equally productive.
After my experience with IVTV drivers, including having two different Linux gurus walking me through the process over email, just makes me come to the conclusion that open source has nothing to do with producing usable software, but is instead just a huge circle-jerk for techies so they can pretend they're better than you. Out of the hundreds of people exposed to this problem, only two were actually helpful, and even with the help of those two I never got working IVTV drivers installed.
(And for the record, the Hauppauge card was recommended to me by a MythTV forum, so it's not like I bought some weird-ass hardware from Mars.)
Now I'm a lot more selective:
1) I won't use an open source product unless it's at least version 1.0. All those sub-1.0 projects are the ones that are impossible to install, use, get documentation for, or get help for, and I'm sick of it-- screw it.
2) I won't even bother trying to get support unless there's a support forum. If I have to sign up for a mailing list, I'll just delete it and use something else. If I have to go into a IRC chat room, same.
3) I won't even bother trying to use the product unless the website is actually slightly useful. Firefox, for instance, has a very usable and useful website (until you go to report a bug, but that's another topic), where IVTV has a Wiki with perhaps a total of 500 words worth of documentation.
(FYI, if your Wiki tutorial sucks, nobody's going to come down from heaven and fix it for you for the simple reason that the people confused by the tutorial *don't know* what the correct process is-- if they did, they wouldn't need the Wiki in the first place. It's more efficient for the developer, who knows the process by heart, to spend 10 minutes fixing the Wiki than random Joe on the internet spending 10 days researching how to install the software and fixing it when he's done only to be told by the developer that he did it all wrong. Wikis are as bad as mailing lists and IRC chat rooms.)
Re:Hah, no kidding (Score:4, Interesting)
It's people basically discussing their sexlives, and the treatment of women in Islam, and if you ask a single question about the foundation servers, you get kicked. Which seems pretty bad to me.
I can understand in non-"official" IRC support channels, but when it's listed officially by the site/distro/software website, it should maintain a friendly, semi-professional image. As it's the first place people trying out Linux or new software might experience. Of course, #n00bsWTF on irc.l33thax0rs.nu can do what the hell they like.
I remember my first days with Linux. I tried man, and I couldn't work out how to quit it, so I Ctrl Z'd it each time. Upon logout, I got the warning about stopped jobs. Little things like that are confusing. vi is confusing. (vim less so). You can scroll up in less, but not in more. Simple things for us are ultra confusing to people that don't know Linux. Think back to the days when you knew nothing about Linux/Unix, and remember them when helping out people in the same boat.
Re:Well, speaking as a Windows snob... (Score:3, Insightful)
What appears to have happened to you doesn't surprise me at all. If you put in a new motherboard (that isn't the same make, model, version as the old one), it should be no
Re:Linux Snobs / Tech Snobs (Score:4, Informative)