Why Consider Linux Kernel Patent Risks? 226
chromatic writes "After the hoopla about OSRM's study of patent risks in the Linux kernel, I talked to Dan Ravicher, the patent attorney and free software afficionado who conducted the study. Contrary to my initial reaction, I've come to believe that the study is actually very valuable. Linux and Patent Risks on the O'Reilly Network explains why."
So.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:So.... (Score:5, Funny)
SCO? I thought they owned Linux.
Re:So.... (Score:2)
Re:So.... (Score:3, Insightful)
And don't forget that the free software community has a history of helping groups that fall under legal trouble (the aftermath of SCO is making free software users more aware of legal risks). So passing the hat around would also be an option. The worst cas is that Microsoft could s
Re:So.... (Score:5, Insightful)
I think you are a little confused, perhaps... When you say someone will "sue linux", exactly who do you mean is being sued? Novell? Linus Torvalds? IBM? Red Hat?
Once you apply a bit of clear thinking, and decide who is being sued, the answer to your question will follow naturally.
Re:So.... (Score:2)
To word it another way: I administer a set of computers. Will my organisation get tied up in a costly lawsuit, just because I want to use Linux rather than one of it's lower-profile brothers (*BSD)? Or even dole out the money for one of Microsoft's OS's?
So, it's not Novell, IBM, etc. who's getting sued, I am. And t
Re:So.... (Score:2)
I really don't think they'd sue you in particular nor would they sue your organization, not to mention the fact that NO ONE IS SUING ANYONE RIGHT NOW. So switching
Re:So.... (Score:3, Insightful)
BTW in the history of the world nobody has ever been sued for actually using a product that infringes on a patent. NEVER EVER.
You need to take a course or two in risk management. Getting paranoid about extrememly unlikely scenarios and changing your business practices to avoid unlikely events is just a "BadIdea"
Big F'in Blue (Score:2, Interesting)
The flipside to this is that frivolous, non-innovative patents can be attacked without an infringment case - out of the blue - as restraint of trade, provided you have the cash to do so. If someone were to patent something obvious, let's say ordering a list of files by date, anyone can file a re
Re:So.... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:So.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Bruce
Re:So.... (Score:2)
Re:So.... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:So.... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:So.... (Score:2)
Re:So.... (Score:2)
Re:Linus. (Score:3, Funny)
IBM lawyers vs. MS lawyers
THUNDERDOME!
Re:Linus. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Linus. (Score:2, Funny)
What makes you think that the IBM lawyers would be angry?
I think they'd be more like borgs. Resistance is futile.
Re:Linus. (Score:2)
Re:Linus. (Score:2)
The amount of research dollars saved against enforcing pattens should continue to outweight the extra slack IBM would have to pick up. It would also ruin or place several of thier sugested (sec
Re:Linus. (Score:5, Informative)
Copyright != Patent != Trademark.
Re:Linus. (Score:2)
*If* Linus had the copyright assigned to him, and he turned into Evil Linus, he could theoretically release the *whole* Linux kernel under a non-GPL agreement (a la MySQL). Of course, this assumes that the code was GPLed before Linus got it, but that the copyright was transferred to him with no restrictions attached.
Re:Linus. (Score:2)
The MySQL database server is available under the MySQL AB "dual licensing" model. Under this model, users may choose to use MySQL products under the free software/open source GNU General Public License (commonly known as the "GPL") or under a commercial license.
Re:Linus. (Score:3, Informative)
It is offered under GPL *and* non-GPL licenses. Which was *exactly* the reason I used it as an example.
(Before I go on, bear in mind that IANAL). MySQL AB own the copyright to MySQL (AFAIK); thus they can release it under the GPL. All changes made to the GPL-licensed version are thus also GPL, and, unless all the authors of the new code get together with MySQL AB and come to an agreement, the branch of the GPL licensed version is GPL-only.
How
Re:Linus. (Score:2)
Re:Linus. (Score:3, Insightful)
Whoah... I never knew that. I remember noting that clause at one point and thinking it seemed pretty risky. I also remember thinking that, if I'd been working on something I intended GPLing at the time, I'd probably want to omit it (or replace it with "or at *my* option any later version"; but that creates problems w
Re:Linus. (Score:2)
Copyright != Patent != Trademark
Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems Linux will be one of the safest kernels from a (patent point of view) to run, since it has had the most companies scouring it's source code looking for infringements.
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:2, Insightful)
Sounds like you're better off with Linux that
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:2)
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:2)
A close reletive bought a car from a small used car lot and later it was found that the owners were buying junkers and then replacing the vin numbers from stollen cars or using stollen cars to fix the junkers. The police identified her car as one of them but couldn't take it away. In fact, they couldn't make her do anythign about compensating the original owners. They did however askher questions about when and why she bought it. Everythign was
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:2)
So it's somehow Microsoft's fault that Cognos built a system which infringed on Timeline's patents?
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:3, Funny)
So lawyers are viruses?
I'm not surprised...
Would it be illegal? (Score:2)
Re:Would it be illegal? (Score:5, Informative)
Even proprietary vendors make their source code available [computerworld.com] to important customers "to conduct security reviews of the products" - why shouldn't they do the same for Intellectual Property Rights?
Furthermore, you could have third-party auditing companies provide that service in the same way they audit other confidential information such as company finances.
Re:Would it be illegal? (Score:2, Informative)
One problem with the U. S. Patent system is that looking for patent violations in your source code makes you liable for charges of willful infringement. I'd be surprised if any companies actually did this.
Re:Would it be illegal? (Score:2)
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:2, Insightful)
Now that we know M$ is attempting to undermine linux by training themselves rather than spewing FUD,
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:4, Informative)
Most other companies could not offer to pay their own indemnities, and many of them believe this is covered by their liability insurance when that may actually not be the case.
So, I think it still turns out that code that is open for all to view is better.Bruce
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:3, Informative)
Bruce
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:2)
I don't expect anyone (except the fringes in he open source community) to start auditing their own code out of the goodness of their hearts -- but now that AutoZone, Cognos/Timeline and friends have woken up to the fact that you can be sued merely for using inventions that infringe, I would think they would want assurances that sof
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:5, Insightful)
They could demand this, but what they would get would be indemnification or insurance. Their motivation is to reduce their legal risk, so either of these would be acceptable.
You really can never complete a patent search. Because of the vagueness of patent claims, it is difficult to say conclusively that a patent can't be asserted against a particular body of code.
Bruce
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:2)
Has anyone talked about the patent risks in Microsoft's code?
I mean, Microsoft's customers were sued by Timeline after Microsoft shipped Timeline's IP in their SQL server.
And then, there's the Eolas case - everyone using Internet Explorer could owe Eolas patent royalties... Think about that for a moment.
With more than 50 million lines of code in the Windows 2000 kernel alone, why isn't anyone talking about Microsoft's patent liability? Do you think even Microsoft can audit every line for a paten
Re:Has anyone audited non-free OS's for patents? (Score:3, Informative)
You are talking about the Doctrine of Laches. Look it up on the web. Generally it takes a 6-year delay of prosecution, although it has been won for less and lost for more. It's not easy to win a laches case. You can lose your shirt while doing so.
Bruce
implied patent license (Score:3, Interesting)
Ravicher discovered that open-source-friendly companies (including IBM and HP) hold about 100 of those patents. Again, the likelihood that such a company would bring suit against someone using or distributing Linux is small, especially since those companies often distribute Linux themselves. (Legally, a company probably could, but it goes against the spirit of open source.)
The assertion "legally, a company probably could" in the above statement is false. Even though it's primarily a copyright license, the GPL contains an implied patent license.
Re:implied patent license (Score:2, Insightful)
I think you're confusing the notion of having a valid case versus actually bringing a case. You don't have to have a good chance of winning to file a suit. You just have to be stupid, arrogant, or really unfriendly.
Re:implied patent license (Score:2)
Re:implied patent license (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:implied patent license (Score:5, Informative)
Re:implied patent license (Score:5, Informative)
Bruce
Re:implied patent license (Score:3, Informative)
http://www10.software.ibm.com/developerworks/op
Click on the "Download" button and you have to agree to the GPL code.
Section 7 on patents is there too.
Re:implied patent license (Score:2)
Re:implied patent license (Score:2)
>To a great extent IBM has avoided distributing GPL software directly.
Did a 5 second search on google and came up with the link. Behold, a public link of IBM distributing software under the GPL.
Don't think link is an interesting counterpoint, say why.
Don't think that the link shows that IBM isn't scared of GPL or doesn't distribute under it, say why.
Just don't insult me by trying to get into nit-picking issues, stick to the point.
Re:implied patent license (Score:2)
That basically means: IBM hasn't distributed a lot of GPL software directly.
That also mean that have distributed some.
So by providing ONE link, you just prove they did distribute some, and you are in agreement with the original statement. You didn't prove that they did a lot.
Hence, your link is not a counterpoint, because the author didn't say that they did not distribute any GPL code.
The fact that they ha
Re:implied patent license (Score:3, Interesting)
But reading it carefully, it seems to indicate that you are not giving a carte blanche license TO THAT CODE.
Don't tell Darl (Score:5, Funny)
In other words- Sco doesn't know about them yet.
Linus and patents (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Linus and patents (Score:2)
All things being equal, you are better off (legally speaking) by simply doing what you intend to do. You can always license whatever the technology is later, even assuming the patent is valid and/or applicable in your situation.
Re:Linus and patents (Score:5, Informative)
This would be covered under attorney-client privilege. Neither you nor your attorney can be made to testify about what your attorney told you. However, what I tell you as a consultant rather than an attorney is not similarly protected. I have indeed told some customers that they should not see my findings because my findings were not favorable for a court case they were considering. What they didn't see, they would not have to testify about. They agreed, thanked me for being so careful regarding their interest, and happily paid me for a report I never delivered!
In this case, if you know you are infringing, the amount of damages you may have to pay goes up by more than three times. That's how the law works. It sure isn't OSRM's fault.
Bruce
Re:Linus and patents (Score:2)
Re:Linus and patents (Score:2)
Re:Linus and patents (Score:3, Insightful)
linux == can of worms == MAD (Score:3, Insightful)
The other reason for not looking is that he wouldn't learn anything anyway. Most software patents [except for IBMs] are so vague that viewing the patent would only cause you troble...because most don't have ACTUAL implementaion...just "works-like-this". What eve
Re:linux == can of worms == MAD (Score:3, Interesting)
Nope. In US there's the 1 year time period after publishing during which one can file patent applications; obviously as long as applicant published the invention (built something that implements the invention).
There really should be a Slashdot Patent FAQ; this same claim has been refuted a number of times.
For purposes of Open Sourcing things this doesn't have much effect, except that the author can both Open Source
It's a MAD World!!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Who are the commies in this scenario?
Re:It's a MAD World!!! (Score:3, Funny)
-matthew.
Re:It's a MAD World!!! (Score:2)
There's an old saying, from a wise man:
With Linux, all roads lead to maddness
I wonder whatever became of him?
Re:It's a MAD World!!! (Score:4, Informative)
They can't enforce their patents against each other except in unusual cases. MS contract with HP allows MS to enforce against HP in regard to specific free software, as we learned in the infamous memo, but that memo is all that we know of the MS-HP cross license. We do not know of any similar carve-out that would allow HP to enforce against Microsoft.
Bruce
Software Patents vs. Free Speech (Score:2)
so AFAIK software patents have the possibility of stopping the business end of linux, but can't fundamentally be a threat to its existence?
Re:Software Patents vs. Free Speech (Score:5, Informative)
One of the requirements for granting a patent is that it describe an invention or process that is nonobvious to one skilled in the art...
Re:Software Patents vs. Free Speech (Score:2)
Re:Software Patents vs. Free Speech (Score:2)
Mod +5 funny!
Re:Software Patents vs. Free Speech (Score:2)
IOW, we would toss in a compile flag for "INCLUDE CODE COVERED BY CONTESTED PATENTS"
Re:Software Patents vs. Free Speech (Score:5, Funny)
The fact that Linux users continue to use Linux, which is obviously an illegal rip off of proprietary systems, is analogous to those 12 year olds who continue to trade mp3s even after we explicitly told them that doing so was a felony. We will continue to implement hardware based DRM, we will deny a license for anything but the MS boot block, and we will continue to increase funding for the anti-piracy arm of the FBI so that we can raise multinational efforts to hunt down and prosecute, to the fullest extent of the law, anyone who continues to write this so-called "open source" software. We will use any and all available means, including invocation of the PATRIOT Act, to ensure that these hardened criminals do the maximum possible time behind bars as an example to our youth. We are continuing to lobby Congress for "three strikes and you're out" laws which make repeated "open source" violations a mandatory felony. The distribution of such "open source" code is also considered a felony. Distributing 1 kb of hardened binary code, based on open source, has a mandatory minimum of 5 years in prison and distributing more than 30 g of "open source" source code carries a mandatory minimum of 10 years in prison with up to a $50,000 fine.
With your help, and the help of other concerned citizens like yourself, we will eradicate "open source" houses from our neighborhoods. We will hunt down "open source" dealers. We will prevent our children from using "open source" code. We have already implemented measures to make the distribution of "open source" code with 500 meters of a school an automatic felony, no matter what amount or who the distribution is to.
'Nuff said...
Re:Software Patents vs. Free Speech (Score:2)
"The fact"?
"rip off"?
In which alternate universe?
t_t_b
Re:Software Patents vs. Free Speech (Score:2)
I get it!
You forgot the <style content=sarcasm> tags!
hahahahahahahaha!
Silly me...
t_t_b
Re:Software Patents vs. Free Speech (Score:2)
Re:Software Patents vs. Free Speech (Score:2)
The court have found that IE is violating an EOLAS patent. Can EOLAS sue everybody who uses IE?
But, if they do find someone to attack (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:But, if they do find someone to attack (Score:2, Insightful)
Did you read the article? Your post is full of inaccuracies.
Defending against a patent lawsuit is expensive and time-consuming. Sure, the courts throw out around half of all contested patents, but that means they uphold around half of all contested patents.
Unwitting infringement does not mean that the patent is bogus, it means that you can show reasonably well that you did not know that you reinvented something someone else had patented.
Where did you come up with the idea that patent damages include
Re:But, if they do find someone to attack (Score:2)
I suspect this is an incorrect deduction. If the courts throw out half of
all contested patents, it does not follow that it upholds the other half.
My uninformed opinion is that of the remaining 50%, some will be dropped,
some will be settled, and the court will rule on the rest (either for or
against the defendant).
Can anyone find statistics about the 50% that aren't thrown out? It
Why consider linux patent risks? (Score:2)
Re:Why consider linux patent risks? (Score:2)
Re:Why consider linux patent risks? (Score:2)
There's only one?
Uh... (Score:3, Insightful)
If they could be publicly audited for patent violations they'd be open-source, yes?
Steven
The law is loaded. (Score:2, Insightful)
Then to find a programmer 'unwittingly' coded something similar that treads on the patents' toes, it is beyond the financial means of the coder to say 'Hey, I done that 5 years ago!' in a court of law.
The law is an ass.
Another interesting factor (Score:2)
I mean, if people who hold those patents REALLY want to be anal, I guess the linux dev guys could just develop those segments in asm.
High risk for any company suing... (Score:4, Insightful)
given the fact that so many patents are revoked upon challenge, the fact that many patents are trivially circumvented via minor changes, and the fact that attacking one company over a 'patent infringement' in kernel code is in effect attacking millions of end users worldwide, the risk is extremely high and the rewards extremely low.
to me it seems rather unlikely any company would attempt this, unless they have nothing to lose (eg SCO).
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:An observation based on the SCO stupidity... (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately, I think it is more likely that this is a sign that companies like Microsoft don't want to attack the competition with patents until they have succeeded in getting US-style patent law in force around the world.
At the moment, it is very difficult to convince politicians how harmful software patents can be because most of the damage is theoretical. If Microsoft were to start suffocating Linux with patent threats prematurely, it would be much harder for them to get software patents introduced in Europe and Asia, thus reducing the effectiveness of their eventual attack.
MOD PARENT UP (Score:2)
Re:An observation based on the SCO stupidity... (Score:3, Interesting)
SCO could potentially have patents on some of their filesystem stuff, just as Microsoft has patents on certain parts of FAT. FAT's patent was granted in 1996, but there are at least three instances of prior art that have come up that seriously put the patent into question. Before Microsoft's recent attempts, they have never demanded any license over the use of FAT. On the other hand, it's ve
This is the most important quote from the article (Score:2, Insightful)
Microsoft knows this. It is why they are filing 10 patents a day (reported on Slashdot before - you look it up). They have, rather correctly in my o
Maybe less dangerous than we think... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Maybe less dangerous than we think... (Score:3, Interesting)
We need to organize now so we can start boycotting MS products and services, protesting at MS locations, programming our servers to reject traffic from MS, and fighting their FUD with counter FUD (yes FUD we have to fight fire with fire), filing countersuits or what have you.
Plans need to be made, people need to get organized. Would a daily protest in redmond work? Would countersuits by indi
Why proprietary software is better... (Score:4, Interesting)
As for the claim above that no one has sued an end user: nonsense, of course. SCO has, for one. And one company was even successfully sued for a program which did not embody or use a patented process or device, but simply wrote one bit of data that, when inserted into another device, would cause it to execute the patented process in a manner violating the license granted to the manufacturer of the second device.
Re:patents free for private use ? (Score:5, Informative)
Also, the international treaties covering patents are still evolving (there's a bunch of 'em -- not just WIPO but PLT, PCT, TRIPS and more I'm sure I'm forgetting), so it's still necessary to check out the local laws.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Uh... (Score:2)