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Linux Business GNU is Not Unix United States

GNU/Linux Clears Gov't Procurement Hurdles 296

Posted by timothy from the benefit-the-commonwealth dept.
Sam Hiser writes "Tom Adelstein makes some sound if subtle points about where GNU/Linux really is in the government space -- not far enough. With OpenOffice.org and Mozilla (Firefox) now popular harbingers of file format freedom and browser security on Windows, he says, there is hope that public mindshare is catching up with reality; and that the 'Microsoft Two-Step: Shrug & Reboot' will soon be a thing of the past. Adelstein, in his column today in Linux Journal, discusses the significant advances made by GNU/Linux and its achievement of Common Criteria certification for government and enterprise use in a world where Microsoft still dominates in mindshare and governmental purchase orders."
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GNU/Linux Clears Gov't Procurement Hurdles More

GNU/Linux Clears Gov't Procurement Hurdles

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  • The Defecto standard (Score:3, Insightful)

    by goombah99 ( 560566 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @03:56PM (#9726285)
    Gov, people dont want to have their documents open correctly 95% of the time. they want 100%. so its gonna stay MS as a defecto, er.. I mean de facto, standard I predict.

    And the version change and new features only makes it more so.

    • Aren't govt contracts with felons unlawful? (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      OP Microsoft still dominates in mindshare and governmental purchase orders

      I thought that once a court found a business to be crooks, the government stopped doing business with it.

      gewg_

  • why popular? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by rd4tech ( 711615 ) * on Saturday July 17, 2004 @03:57PM (#9726290)
    Just curious, how came we don't have stories about people using Linux and switching to windows?
    I don't want to troll but the question simlpy begs itself. Considering the majority of people here are still hooked up on windows, it's surprising that moved-to-linux stories are quite popular.

    I mean, if the damn thing is already too superior, why aren't everyone switching now?
    But please don't give me the 'switching cost' argument. It's simply not valid. You run a bussness, you plan estimates in YEARS ahead. Switching cost is less than licencing cost for any long term business planning. Plus the ability to (f)ix your own tools is the most powerfull leverage you can have.

    • Re:why popular? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by stoborrobots ( 577882 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @04:11PM (#9726371)
      In reverse order...

      You run a bussness, you plan estimates in YEARS ahead.

      That depends... Many large businesses are run by people who are in there for a few years only... They want the biggest profit this financial year, then they collect your multi-million-dollar bonus, then they leave...

      why aren't everyone switching now?

      Like the article says: mindshare! People think "Windows" when they think "Computer"... "Explorer" when they mean "Internet"... Et cetera...

      Let's think about who might consider switching, and how they think about it:
      • CEO: Put company in for multi-million-dollar project to migrate systems. Reduce profit. Reduce Bonus. BAD!
      • IT Department: We're currently running Windows. We therefore know Windows. We're MCSEs. We don't understand Linux. We'll be out of a job. BAD!
      • Mom&Pop: This computer is already confusing. You want me to change something? I don't understand it. BAD!
      • Gamer: It doesn't run CounterStrike!!! BAD!
      • Programmer: My company only develops for Windows. BAD!


      So who's going to switch?

      Remember superior never implied popular - just ask Sony BetaMax users.

      we don't have stories about ... switching to windows?

      I don't know? maybe nobody does it... They switch to linux, love it and never leave... ;-)

      • Re:why popular? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by f0rt0r ( 636600 )
        The question isn't why not, it is why? For businesses, this is a critical question. What do I have to gain? What will it cost to make the switch?

        Just think about it. You have a large staff, business critical applications, computer hardware...all of these are factors in the decision. For example where I am at, many applications ( such as webtrends ) do not run on Linux, some only run on proprietary version of Unix ( such as HP-UX ), precious few would survive the transition over to Linux, That means gutti

    • Re:why popular? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by perlchild ( 582235 )
      most people who have transition problems from Windows to Linux don't stay long enough to have been considered to use Linux at all.

      Most to-Linux switches are hundreds of desktops at a time, and are not entered into lightly, and are not backed away from once started.

      That accounts for the difference you mention.
    • Just curious, how came we don't have stories about people using Linux and switching to windows?
      Because Microsoft no longer sells the installation disks of Windows XX with new systems. This was done to deter pirates. The only disk coming with the system is usually a system restore disk which will restore that specific machine to the original state it was in, when it left the manufacturer.

      I don't think anyone would seriously consider spending an additional 250 pounds/dollars (retail price of Windows XP Home

  • It do Work here (Score:4, Informative)

    by Milo of Kroton ( 780850 ) <milo.of.kroton ( ... ail.com minus pi> on Saturday July 17, 2004 @03:57PM (#9726294) Journal
    Government can't switch to Linux or even free software, people say. Well, such has done München (Munich you say) here in my country. I am professional involved with some of people who are with the project involved, and it is as they are accorded going "smooth move, exlax" as you Americans say.

    • Re:It do Work here (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      And now, in English, for the Ameri-centric slashdotting fucks

      Critics may say "The government can't switch to Linux or even use free software." They allege that it couldn't work. Well, here in my country (Germany, for you dumb fucks who can't figure out where Munich is) it is working quite well in Munich. I am professionally involved with some of people who are working on the project, and they tell me (in German) it is going rather smoothly, just like I'm telling you Americans that it is, only in brok

    • Please don't take this the wrong way as I mean it sincerely. I just love that you write with an accent.

      A big part of the problem in American government, insofar as OSS software adoption goes, is that middle managers and "higher-ups" still equate "secure" with "secret" even though this is demonstrably untrue.

    • Re:It do Work here (Score:3, Insightful)

      by xs650 ( 741277 )
      If gumnt were here to serve the general public, then open source would gain faster acceptance in US gumnt than it has been getting..

      Unfortunately, to a large extent the reality is that gumnt is here to serve the companies that bribe ^H^H^H^H^H lobby our Congresscritters.

  • Interesting... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Tezkah ( 771144 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @03:57PM (#9726295)
    ... but what about GNU/Linux's use in the military? For example, a member of the Los Angelas LUG resigned [newsforge.com] over the use of Linux in the military.

    Do we really want the government using open source? We really dont want to limit it, because that would be a limit on the freedom, but do we want it being used for evil? Perplexing!

    • Re:Interesting... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Tim C ( 15259 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @04:51PM (#9726604)
      Do you want Free software? Then you cannot seek to prevent anyone from using it. Don't want software to be used for purposes that you consider evil? Then give up the idea of it being Free.

      Choose carefully.

    • Re:Interesting... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by macshit ( 157376 )
      ... but what about GNU/Linux's use in the military? For example, a member of the Los Angelas LUG resigned over the use of Linux in the military.

      Do we really want the government using open source? We really dont want to limit it, because that would be a limit on the freedom, but do we want it being used for evil? Perplexing!

      The military (and government) are not "evil", though they can be used for evil purposes. If a bad war happens, the fault lies with our political leaders (and us to the degree that we

    • Re:Interesting... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Stallmanite ( 752733 )
      A tool maker should not have any control over the actions of the one using the tool. That is the whole point of Software Freedom.

      Imagine those kind of restrictions on physical objects. Imagine people selling shoes that couldn't legally be used to march in a pride parade. Or vegetarian only forks.

      Even if a no-army provision was put into the GPL, the US government would just waste money building their own software. Money that otherwise could be used to help people or just not taxed away in the first pla
    • For example, a member of the Los Angelas LUG resigned over the use of Linux in the military.

      most rational people agree - that guy was an idiot.

  • Let me get this straight... (Score:5, Funny)

    by WarMonkey ( 721558 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @03:58PM (#9726300)
    Let me get this straight... The people who are responsible for wars, enforce laws against victimless "crimes", suffocate the economy with regulations, tax just about everything that moves and just in general make nuisances and parasites of themselves... are now using a more robust, secure and all around technologically superior operating system more and more frequently? Why is this a good thing? Shouldn't we be trying to make *them* use Windows?

    • A good, concise description that partisan warriors on both sides should take to heart. A divided population is just what big government wants. It is so much easier to control. Bah. The only winning move is to elect CBN.

    • Re:Let me get this straight... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by danharan ( 714822 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @05:37PM (#9726908) Journal
      It's a good thing for all the same reasons it's good for open-source when your neighbourhood pedophile, rapist or mass murdered uses your favorite free operating system. Bug reports and the potential they'll contribute something back in code and/or money.

      And if you have some asshats "governing" you that are starting wars, passing stupid laws and taxing in even stupider ways, it's time you turfed them out of power. Imposing Windows on every bureaucrat is cruel and unusual punishment, and I think there's something about that in a couple international laws.

  • Shrug and Reboot? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by rjdohnert ( 772699 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @03:58PM (#9726303) Homepage
    I havent had an unintentional reboot since I started using Win XP. This is zealotry at its best. I personally wish that people would quit with the "Windows must die for Linux to succeed" crap. I like them both and they both have their purposes. I dont care how great Linux gets, I WILL NOT QUIT USING WINDOWS, tney are tools to be used sometimes in conjunction together sometimes by themselves. Windows will never die, Believe it oir not there are a lot of people that like Windows. The two major Operating Systems I see for the future are going to be Linux and Windows. Windows is here to stay, get used to it.
    • Windows will never die, Believe it oir not there are a lot of people that like Windows.

      A very good point, although I suspect you (and I) will be moderated down by the /. hive-mind in no time. I run a Linux server at home, but I only access it remotely only using my desktop PC running Windows. Why?

      Well, let's see. Legitimate support for a DVD playback, games, MS Office (no, OpenOffice does not import/export files properly), painless firewalling (ZoneAlarm) and free, automatic updates. That's for starters

      • Re:Shrug and Reboot? (Score:3, Informative)

        by pherthyl ( 445706 )
        Legitimate support for DVD playback - Check the Slashdot story from a week or so ago about powerdvd for linux. I admit this is a bit weak but xine plays dvds fine. Are you seriously concerned about illegally playing DVDs?

        Games - Agreed. Then again some of the quality new games are also available for linux.

        MS Office - Openoffice for 99% if the work. If you really need 100% compatibility you can run Office with Wine

        Painless firewalling - Painless like not enabling the firewall until after the internet
      • The only files in which I have had trouble with are MS files and that even between MS applications. Once I started using open standards I never looked back. I can now use any OS I choose and I still have access to my files, I do not wait for MS to port the app. I am free of Windows and it feels great.


        Now if your document falls apart on everything but Windows, I guess that is something you choose to live with.


        Legitimate? Whatever makes you feel good.....

      • Re:Shrug and Reboot? (Score:3, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        I run a Linux network at home (4 systems) and no Windoze machines. My wife has to have Excel so I run Crossover Office with Microsoft Office 2000 Professional on my Linux boxes. I have absolutely no problem with DVD playback, copying, backup, TV capture, you name it. My systems are up 24/7/365 and have been for the past two years (not counting major power outages). I'm firewalled out the wazoo. I have no viruses. The only legitimate reason that I can see for you running Windoze is games (it *is* a val
      • Oh nos, you were both modded up! Does that mean that there isn't a /. hivemind? Do people have different opinions here?!

        Legitimate support for a DVD playback

        DeCSS has been deemed legitimate in the eyes of the law.

        games

        True, true. Windows has the bears share of the gaming market. I can't wait for Doom3 myself :)

        MS Office

        A Word Processor is a Word Processor. At the end of the day you're simply printing a formatted document. As to compatability, MS Office doesn't import older .docs either so...

        pa

    • Re:Shrug and Reboot? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by dstillz ( 704959 )
      I don't think they're talking about unintentional reboots. I think they're talking about the fact that in a Windows environment, nasty problems aren't corrected (or corrigible) when they occur; the administrator/user simply reboots the computer and starts with a clean slate.

      This is contrary to the actual problem-solving skills exhibited by the average Linux user.

      I use Windows XP Pro most of the time, and the only things I lose uptime for are hardware installations and Windows Update packages.

      • Re:Shrug and Reboot? (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        This is contrary to the actual problem-solving skills exhibited by the average Linux user

        I don't think that's correct. I know some rather smart people who admin windows boxes, and I have to admin some myself. The problem is that you just don't know what the fuck is going on. The system log in windows is worthless, and there are hardly any tools that come with windows that really allow you to diagnose many of the problems. So what now? I sit and fuck with a computer with nothing to go on for hours, or

    • Re:Shrug and Reboot? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by SlowMovingTarget ( 550823 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @04:39PM (#9726517) Homepage

      If you wait long enough, you will be using a UNIX variant. In fact, the bits you're relying on to read Slashdot, assuming you read it from your WinXP PC, originated in a UNIX distribution.

      Personally, I get along fine with Windows (writing to you using XP Pro at the moment). But I don't like Microsoft's attitude toward its customer base. Specifically, customers are "revenue streams" that must be encouraged vigorously to stay on the never-ending upgrade carousel. Why do you think Longhorn will have such a completely different API / programming system? Primarily, in spite of all the claims of productivity and security, it's so that users will have to buy the newest versions of software packages they already have.

      For a small company providing significant enhancements and consistently delivering value, that sort of practice isn't necessarily bad. But I don't need a web services interface to my word processor (*cough* intentional strawman). Microsoft is experiencing a problem typical of any publicly traded company that dominates its market. They can't grow. And it's this artificial need to grow that causes them to look for new ways to milk revenue streams from their existing customers. It's not about profit, it's about the stock price.

      So, yeah, Windows is OK if you keep it patched and turn off or strap down the whiz-bang features. I just hope that Microsoft outgrows (in the maturity sense) their focus on leasing you their software and gets back to the business of selling competitive products.

    • I havent had an unintentional reboot since I started using Win XP.

      You've had good luck then. I'll admit that out of the box WinXP is pretty stable, but I have experenced many an unintentional reboot under the following conditions.

      1. Dual display HP laptop. When enabling it 1 time out of 10 blue screen of death.

      2. Printer drivers... Some just don't play nice.

      3. Internet Explorer... Ok, technicaly not a reboot, but still sometimes craps out for some unexplained reason.

      I'll agree that WinXP is pr

    • Re:Shrug and Reboot? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by pherthyl ( 445706 )
      "I dont care how great Linux gets, I WILL NOT QUIT USING WINDOWS"

      So you're saying that even if (note the IF, I'm not saying its there yet) Linux becomes much better in all respects than Windows you'll still use Windows? And you're complaining about zealotry?

    • Thing Again -You probably will move beyond Windows (Score:5, Insightful)

      by SlideGuitar ( 445691 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @07:26PM (#9727481)
      ... and here's why. Simple economics. It costs huge sums to pay all those MS folk to keep developing Windows.

      IBM has figured out that the OS is a commodity... and a proprietary OS is a just a tool to lock in application producers/providers... so they are actively driving the value out of the OS market.

      Microsoft will NOT be able to survive as the dominant OS if it has to pay hundreds and hundreds of developers to do what Linux developers do more or less for free.

      Even Apple, which has cut costs by using BSD at the core, still has huge built in costs. But they are smart... they are using their OS budget to develop a competitive advantage at the interface level.

      As Linux becomes the numerically dominant OS worldwide it will draw a growing number of application writers.... snowball effect... just as "everyone" writes for Windows now, there will come a day when people can't afford not to write for Linux and Windows... and not too long after that, a day when people will look at the shrinking Windows market share and say, as they do of Apple now... hey maybe will get around to writing for that someday...

      MS can't... simply can't.... compete on cost at the basic OS level. They will therefore compete politicaly, legally, and every other way.

      Now... you like Windows because it runs your apps? Hey, I like it for the same reason. I run XP and SuSE.

      SuSE is definitely more of a pain in the butt... no Dreamweaver.... no Photoshop CS... although I could go back to Photoshop 7 with codeweaver.... I'm still trying to figure out how to install programs from source.... it's a pain in the butt every time. But look at IBMs strategy and you will see why Window's share will be about the size of Apples's market share in 10 years.

      None of the programs I run in SuSE ever give me trouble... but I don't run Dreamweaver which is the main thing that is always locking up in XP. Neither ever locks up fully... although I have had XP grow unstable and funky, leading me to reboot... and of course I reboot for some installs. No big... I'm so square I turn off my computer every night. But all in all XP is still easier to use... and DOOMED.

      Linux and open source sucks the profit out of the OS. MS will NOT be able to afford to compete with the cost of linux development. They are selling something that used to require a paid army, and now needs only an unpaid army to develop and improve.

      As a result Windows will die.... unless they simply purchase the governments and court systems of the world outright, or with the help of their corporate partners, and outlaw free software and, not to get too overheated about it, freedom of thought and communication itself.

    • I havent had an unintentional reboot since I started using Win XP. This is zealotry at its best.

      You're lucky in that case. I have had XP crash plenty of times where Linux (currently running Fedora) has been much more stable on the same piece of hardware. Granted, it is better than the old Win9x but it is still a long way short of Linux.

      I personally wish that people would quit with the "Windows must die for Linux to succeed" crap.

      Agreed. Similarly, if MS would just stop trying to take over the world

  • Government money (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Stevyn ( 691306 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @04:00PM (#9726311)
    A lot of funding is going to the DOD for defense so people in those organizations have a lot of money to work with. I have a summer internship at a base and they bought me a $4400 setup for Pro/E work. Saving a little money isn't a high priority. Also, pro/e needs windows.

    I think linux will become popular with foreign governments before it becomes popular in the US. Like I've always thought, linux can be harder to setup, but it works better once you have it set up. IT departments probably wouldn't like it because it takes their job away by not having to wipe windows' ass every 15 minutes and requires them to learn something new.

  • Technical Support (Score:4, Interesting)

    by tsaler ( 569835 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @04:01PM (#9726315)
    It's important to realize that the government and government workers have more important things to do and to be working on than dealing with computer problems. Now, Linux doesn't have all that many problems if set up correctly and everything else. The unfortunate part is that most folks who work in government aren't going to want to have to learn Linux. That's just my guess, after all. I could be wrong.

    With Windows, if something goes wrong, a "shrug and reboot" will take place. If something's still wrong, a work order or whatever else will be put in, and the problem will be fixed. Now, here's the kicker: when things have to get fixed, does the government want to have to pay for a bunch of people who are like the character Nick Burns from SNL?

    Perhaps government offices feel like Microsoft and associated tech support teams are more friendly and cooperative. I think it would be nice if the government switched over to Linux. It would avoid some security issues like when Republican staffers "broke into" Democratic bulletin boards and published internal memoranda.

    Oh well, what do I know? I'm more about government than technology anyway, but I don't have a problem with switching over to Linux. Maybe the powers that be do.

    • Re:Technical Support (Score:2, Informative)

      by dlamming ( 152302 )
      It would avoid some security issues like when Republican staffers "broke into" Democratic bulletin boards and published internal memoranda.

      Not really. Suppossedly, the permissions on the shared files were set incorrectly. It's pretty easy to have sensitive documents shared to the world under linux too. Now admittedly, the technical competence of your linux administrator vs the typical MSCE should be high enough to help reduce these problems, but setting permissions incorrectly is easy to do under any OS.
    • >>

      With Windows, if something goes wrong, a "shrug and reboot" will take place. If something's still wrong, a work order or whatever else will be put in, and the problem will be fixed. Now, here's the kicker: when things have to get fixed, does the government want to have to pay for a bunch of people who are like the character Nick Burns from SNL?

      So I guess your point is IBM needs a better dress code? Maybe brighter ties? Button up tie-dye shirts?

      I've thought the same for _years_.

  • I work for the Feds... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by budhaboy ( 717823 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @04:11PM (#9726366)
    I am on a group that is exploring the use of open source alternatives at a large statistical agency in the Federal government.

    We were formed about two months ago, and our charter was to figure out the rollout of the following :

    1) Samba, to better manage file and print servers... We currently use Windows products, and really dissatisfied.

    2) Apache. We currently use windows, and are REALLY dissatisfied

    3) Linux Cluster for doing distributed computations (there is no windows alternative, and many of us learned these techniques in graduate school and are appalled they aren't available to us)

    The institutional constipation on changing these things is utterly appalling... Here is an example:

    Prior to this groups formation I tried to get permission to use R to replace S, as most of the people who use it, do so infrequently, and dont' really justify the cost... I was told, by boilerplate, "freeware is written by 'hackers' and is riddled with security holes..." when I CCd a letter to the then director of R, asking for advice, I was read the riot act by the people who make such decisions...

    • Re:I work for the Feds... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by afinnie ( 711415 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @04:51PM (#9726603)
      ... I was told, by boilerplate, "freeware is written by 'hackers' and is riddled with security holes..."

      I work as an office worker (a summer job; pretty much just an errand boy) for the U.S. Air Force. In order to get on the network, I had to take this computer-based training thing that more or less explained USAF/DOD computing policy and network usage policy and whatnot. In there, it straight-up said freeware and open source software has more security holes and is more vulnerable to and exploits than proprietary software. Most of the computer-people I spoke with there (I work in a Communications and Information section) about Linux seemed more averse to it because it's just different. Too scared to learn a new way to do things.
      • I hope someone reads this far down... I work as an IA specialist for DoD and linux and vxworks are used in a lot of crucial areas. radars run vxworks. networks that transfer target data run linux. Common Criteria (the orange book) is an old standard and is recognized as untenable. The red book came out to address some of those issues. the orange book only certifies non-networked platforms. the minute you connect it to something the certification is void. the DoDI 8500.2 is the reigning instruction for ce
      • One guy on the computing team got so disgusted with the process, he got 6-7 of his office mates to fire up some knoppix cluster CD on their way out the door, to allow him an impromptu computational cluster... Not quite the same as a 20 node, but still better than nothing.

  • Shrug and reboot, huh? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Tim C ( 15259 )
    A couple of months ago I decided it was time to try out a differnt distro (from Mandrake 9.1), so I downloaded gentoo. Well, I've grown impatient in my old age, so no, I did not want to read all 50ish pages of the installation instructions, so I read the quick start and got stuck in.

    When it failed to boot, I shrugged, rebooted to XP and downloaded Fedora Core 1. Installed fine, booted - no support for my modem. Okay, shrug, reboot to XP, download the packages, reboot to Fedora. Ah; no NTFS module, not even
    • Gentoo isn't as hard as everyone says it is.

      They include more information than most people need for the install.

      Read the section on FDISK then
      # mount /dev/hda3 /mnt/gentoo
      # mkdir /mnt/gentoo/boot
      # mount /dev/hda1 /mnt/gentoo/boot
      # mkdir /mnt/gentoo/proc
      # mount -t proc none /mnt/gentoo/proc
      # tar -xvjpf /mnt/cdrom/stages/stage3--20040412.tar.bz2
      # cp -L /etc/resolv.conf /mnt/gentoo/etc/resolv.conf
      # chroot /mnt/gentoo /bin/bash
      # env-update
      * Caching service dependencies...
      # source /etc/profile
      # emerge sync
      #
    • Hmmm, fucked up PC? That is what Mandrake Move or Knoppix is for. You need never boot into expee.

    • Seriously though, it's getting tiresome. Sometimes I could almost believe that the people most vocally bashing Windows are the ones who haven't actually used it in years, and are basing their vitriol on out of date experiences.

      Could be true to some extent. I haven't used Windows regularly since 94-95-ish. So I tend not to talk too much about it. I'm in it for the freedom anyway.

      However, the last time I actually needed Windows to do something for me, it didn't work....

      I wanted some new firmware in

  • ...and while we have butted heads in the past, I still have a *great* measure of respect for him. He is as brillant a guy as he is complex. I'm not easily impressed and Tom does impress me. I say all this because, Tom is great at spotting trends. He's great at analysis. Best of all, he actually has enough business contacts to get the results of his analysis into the right hands to make it reality.

    Don't underestimate what this man says.
  • Really, it's almost free it's so cheap. It's cheaper than the posted prices of Redhat Enterprise. I think my org paid $150 for Windows 2003. It's easy, people are used to it, it works, it's cheap. Hard to get a reason to change.

  • OMG (Score:4, Insightful)

    by eWarz ( 610883 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @07:32PM (#9727517)
    These arguments get old after a while.

    Reasons why linux isn't ready for the desktop:

    Installing Software:
    In Windows: Double click exe file
    In Linux: Unpack source code, run configure, run make, run make install and pray that you have the right versions of various libs. Yeah, debian may have apt and redhat may have rpm, but the setup files that run on windows are universal, and install to ANY version of windows.

    Changing settings for software:
    Windows: Open convienent settings dialog, press apply or simply press ok to close the dialog when done, changes are applied.
    Linux: Edit cryptic config files, restart app

    Installing Drivers:
    Windows: Double click the setup file, worse case scenario, open device manager and do things that way or right click on the inf file and hit install.
    Linux: compile the driver, possibly recompile the linux kernel due to a missing dependency. use insmod to install the driver. Edit several config files to get the driver to load. Even IF you get this far driver may not work because the kernel is 0.00.000001th of a revision off.

    You can argue it's the software developer's fault, but forcing a user to compile EVERYTHING they use is a waste of time and no user will ever use an operating environment that promotes such primitive behavior.

    Flame me all you want, i'm one of over a billion windows users, i also use linux, it has it's places (Servers) but it's NOT ready for the desktop, no matter what you may say/think.

    The day you can install and run apps with the click of an icon on ANY distro, the day you can edit ALL aspects of your system via a nice GUI, will be the day that linux stands a chance.

    • Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Saturday July 17, 2004 @08:31PM (#9727843)
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re:OMG (Score:4, Insightful)

      by sloanster ( 213766 ) * <ringfan@@@mainphrame...com> on Saturday July 17, 2004 @09:18PM (#9728055) Journal
      How does this silly troll get modded as insightful? It appears to be nothing more than some bizzare propoganda with no basis in fact..

      Let's look at what they're peddling for just a moment: For instance, in comparing installation of programs, the microsoft zealot assumes unquestioningly that every program comes with a well-designed, easy-to-use installer when you install it on windows, and somehow, magically, that same program only comes as a tarball of source code if you want to install it on linux.

      May I introduce a brief reality check here? When I installed ut2004 on linux a few months ago, I clicked on the install program, and fed CDs in when requested. That is pretty much the standard. Can you also compile and install programs on linux from scratch, at the commmand line? Yes, of course you can - you can do pretty much whatever you want! but the windows zealots would try to make that nice extra feature a weakness of linux by pretending that's the only method available to install programs. He did obliquely refer to apt, but the fact is, for programs that ship with the OS, a cron job and apt-get keeps those up to date with no human intervention - and not just on debian, I use apt-get for redhat, fedora and suse systems too.

      The other subjects he touches upon: installing drivers, changing settings, etc, are just as bogus. Anyone who is familiar with linux knows just how bogus, so I won't beat a dead horse. As the man once said, these microsoft zealots love to compare the linux of 1996 with the microsoft windows of tomorrow.

    • Re:OMG (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Pecisk ( 688001 )
      And I call your arguments plainly out of context. Sometimes, I'm really tired of this all old Windows IT departement mentality and sentimentality, which really loves their jobs of patching and reinstalling.

      First, in my practice, 95% of situations normal desktop PC (not laptops, it's another story and problems, but lot of people working on it) never need aditional Linux drivers. And most of commercial ones has very good driver support, even lot of semi-comercial and comercial ones, which can't be included

    • Re:OMG (Score:3, Insightful)

      by glitch23 ( 557124 )

      Installing Software: In Windows: Double click exe file In Linux: Unpack source code, run configure, run make, run make install and pray that you have the right versions of various libs. Yeah, debian may have apt and redhat may have rpm, but the setup files that run on windows are universal, and install to ANY version of windows.

      In Linux for commercial apps there is actually setup programs to go thru such as the one for StarOffice or OpenOffice. Only for small 3rd party apps would a compilation be requ

  • Last I heard, "Shrug and Try Reinstalling" has replaced "Shrug and Reboot".

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