MS Hires The Salesman Who Won Munich For SUSE 422
ron_ivi writes "In a move reminiscent of the 1997 MSFT/Borland Lawsuits, Microsoft has hired the SUSE sales guy who won Munich for SUSE.
So if you want a job in this tough job market, just be wildly successful at your current job and Microsoft will come recruit you. (Another interesting Microsoft hire is the chair of the ISO C++ standards body as their VisualC++.NET architect.) Personally I think it's great that they recognize talented individuals and reward them well."
it's war (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:it's war (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:it's war (Score:4, Insightful)
End snip, now to read between the lines...
Is it hiring the best people for the job or is it removing the worst enemy from active duty?
Someone who is honest and displays a fair comparison between products may not be your best recruit for the job of promoting spin.
Re:it's war (Score:5, Insightful)
honest and displays a fair comparison between products
When does any sales person do the above. He is out to make his companies product look better than any other, thats what SuSE paid him to do and thats what Microsoft will pay him to do. I love SuSE, it's been the only distro I use for years but even I can;t say anything bad about this or put this guy up for any honesty award.
Re:it's war (Score:3, Insightful)
Believe it or not, some salesmen only sell for companies they believe in. When I was in sales in my early years, I used to demonstrate how some pieces of audio gear were better than others such as showing RMS verses Peak power ratings. Then comparing both for a customer with test equipment to show the level clipping occure
Re:it's war (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:it's war (Score:3, Interesting)
When I was in marketing I developed a good rapport with my customers by being honest. When the Account Executive would try and blow smoke my customers would ask me if the claim was true. If it wasn't I told them so, but I also tried to show where their needs could be met through creative use of an existing function. I wasn't popular with management, but sales never suffered.
Re:it's war (Score:3, Interesting)
You worked at a Radio Shack with a working scope, function generator sine, triangle, square wave etc. with sweep, AC voltmeter (that read in DB, DBmV down to -60 DBmV minimum) and not just a multimeter that might measuure a 50mV 3Khz tone? Where is this fully equiped Radio Shack? Most I've been to have no idea what a scope or function generator is let alone anyone that knew how to use them to measure frequency response, S/N ratio, THD, etc.
I know, it's humor
Re:it's war (Score:5, Insightful)
I think it's obviously both.
Someone who is honest and displays a fair comparison between products may not be your best recruit for the job of promoting spin.
How do we know he's honest? How do we know he's showing fair comparisons? It's entirely possible that he LIED to Munich about the robustness of SuSE, the completeness of compatibility, the time to install, etc. It's likely that he spun the competing products as costly packages that don't innovate like Linux doeso. It's probable he spread FUD about forced paid upgrades, deplorable security, unrepaired bugs and expensive support.
Of course, a lot of the people around here would call that an honest and fair comparison, but it's really spin in the opposite direction. There is no inherently "better" OS or development philosophy. Analyzing the software packages available and whether they meet your needs is the job of a consultant. The job of a sales person is to skew your needs and exagerate how they're met by the software he's selling. He did that for SuSE, he'll do it for Microsoft.
Which is why I prefer to avoid salesmen and "partnered" consultants wherever possible. If a guy's got a big Cisco logo on his business card, chances are he's not going to sell you a D-Link hub, even if that's what you need.
Re:it's war (Score:3)
Microsoft doesn't want ANY other company to be growing so that it can be a threat. Even if they don't directly compete at the time.
--jeff++
Re:it's war (Score:2, Funny)
Re:it's war (Score:5, Funny)
Side note: After we saw AntiTrust, my wife kept trying to convince me that she really *wasn't* a spy for Microsoft. Seems the movie hit a little too close to home.
Re:it's war (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh grow up. You could just as easily spin this as Linux's best evangelists are mercenaries with no integrity; they can be bought by the enemy.
It's business. RTFA and don't skip the bits about Juniper recruiting from Cisco, EMC recruiting from HP, etc. Guess what -- for all the childish railing against MS, they actually can't force someone to work for them. Can MS throw money at someone? Sure. Can a target of their recruitment strategy say no? Of course.
And, by the way, I'm guessing MS probably didn't ring him up and offer him a job right away. Usually you start by feeling out if someone is interested before you start talking dollars. You can be aggressive in your negotiations, but he could always have just said no right at the beginning. Right? So why isn't this story headlined Traitor defects to the enemy MS camp?
Re:it's war (Score:5, Funny)
I would also like to say: why isn't this story headlined Saviour is now inside the MS VC.NET team! Hurray!
Meaning of $$$ in Company Names (Score:4, Interesting)
The moral of the story (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The moral of the story (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The moral of the story (Score:3, Insightful)
Dude showed himself to be a hell of a salesman, and a big corp took notice, and came and offered him a metric assload of cash to come work for them.
Re:The moral of the story (Score:5, Funny)
I heard Linus made a counter-offer (Score:5, Funny)
Is Linux doing well in Munich? (Score:5, Interesting)
Good question (Score:2)
That's just a bit speculative, isn't it? Who says they're having any difficulties? I think Microsoft was the one who had the difficulties here, having lost the contract and all.
This is classic Microsoft. Can't beat 'em? Buy 'em!
Re:Good question (Score:5, Insightful)
--
Re:Is Linux doing well in Munich? (Score:3, Informative)
IIRC, the problems are mostly what you would expect from a massive platform migration like this and things have been steadily improving. The Register [theregister.co.uk] points out that a lot of the problems stem from small vendors who don't know enough about OSS to port their software.
Re:Is Linux doing well in Munich? (Score:5, Informative)
You can also read Client study for the state capital Munich, Executive summary of the final report [forget-me.net] which outlines the options and strategy for the upgrade.
How long before (Score:5, Funny)
Re:How long before (Score:5, Funny)
Re:How long before (Score:5, Insightful)
Last Christmas, my mom got herself a laptop. I tried to set it up right, with her as a limited user with access to an administrative account. A couple of months back, my brother installed a wireless card on my mom's laptop. But the software installed kept popping up this message box every thirty seconds. After a good deal of hunting, the only solution my brother could find was to give mom's account full administrative privileges. The software simply assumed that it had write access to the registry.
Multiply that by thousands of lazy application writers, each demanding elevated privileges for common user tasks, and suddenly Microsoft has this huge cultural inertia to overcome.
Whether widespread adoption of Linux will drag it in the opposite direction remains to be seen. Though, given the whole "Lindows" thing, I'm certainly concerned.
Re:How long before (Score:3, Insightful)
Your brother not knowing how to deal with this is not the same as the OS being insecure. He should have given the account write access to the one section of the registry it wanted to touch (you can put an ACL on any regkey), rather than making the account admin. Someone could just as easily try to deal with a problem on a unix system by always running as root or unnecessarily makin
Re:How long before (Score:3, Insightful)
windows xp has the runas command and fast user switching now to help with this problem.
Makes Sense (Score:3, Insightful)
Microsoft is well known for their great hiring practices. I know quite a few of thier employees and they all are some of the best in the fields they specialise in. MS is pretty good at weeding out the chaff.
Re:Makes Sense (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Makes Sense (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Makes Sense (Score:3, Insightful)
[...]
A hiring practice that asks college students to quit school just seems like a bad practice to me.
At first I was like "WTF?!" when I read your post. But it does make sense. They were looking for someone who could dedicate themselves full time to work and they believed that someone still going thru college wasn't going to be able to, so the only way they would have considered (not even accepted
Re:Makes Sense (Score:3, Informative)
You are absolutely correct. I edited my post repeatedly to ensure that it wouldn't be taken as a generic MS slam. I knew at the in-person interview that the job I was being considered for was full time. In the phone interviews, I thought it was an internship. I just found it strange that they would ask a college student to quit college. Of co
I call bullshit. (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Makes Sense (Score:3, Insightful)
= 9J =
Re:Makes Sense (Score:3, Insightful)
Not really, dumb people with no prospects are more apt to take salary abuse (work 70+ hrs/week and we pay you for 40.... ok 35).
In Sales (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:In Sales (Score:4, Insightful)
Good job offers (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Good job offers (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good job offers (Score:3, Insightful)
PR Nightmare? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Good job offers (Score:5, Interesting)
I have nothing against Linus, but he makes decisions for Linux primarily based on the idea that it's a "hacker's OS". Givin Linux's rising popularity, anything that makes it more market focused is a bad thing for M$.
Re:Good job offers (Score:5, Informative)
Microsoft did try to hire Alan Cox [essential.org] though.
Re:Good job offers (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that's a bit of a stretch. Linus isn't dumb you know. He is well aware where Linux is being used and is very much interested in getting Enterprise Level features into the kernel. Look at all of the scalibility work that's gone on since 2.0. Do you think that Linus thinks this is so that some code junkie can mess around with his machine at home? Contrary to what you implied the Linux kernel is driven by market forces. Look at the impact that SGI, IBM etc have had since they got involved. Big business has made it very clear what they need and the kernel hackers have answered. I'm not implying that they or Linus are some sort of corporate lacky, but they are not coding with blinders on either.
Maybe somehow I'm in the wrong here, but your version of how Linus views the kernel seems like a view from 1994. Your right, he probably doesn't *care* about Microsft or world domination, but don't think that the kernel isn't very much driven by corporate and market needs at this point.
Re:Good job offers (Score:3, Insightful)
NVidia got tied of trying to chase around every kernel version and released a binary lib that gets linked against some kernel "glue" that's distributed in source form
Re:Good job offers (Score:3, Insightful)
Possibly, but I think it would be hard to dispute that removing a project's leader would create problems for the project. Fortunately, the linux kernel team is deep enough that they problably could recover from losing Linus.
Anyhow, that wasn't my point. Microsoft does have a great tradition of buying up the competition, and the article shows that this applies to not only compani
Would Microsoft hire Linus? (Score:3, Insightful)
First, Linus is first and foremost a kernel developer. As far as I can tell, Microsoft does not go in for particularly heavy development on their kernel.
Second, they know that it's unlikely that Linus would take it. Linus could make a lot more money by working at Red Hat or similar, but has chosen not to do so to avoid biasing Linux. He really likes doing the open source Linux, and it's unlikely that he'd stop doing something that he really lik
His first assignment (Score:5, Funny)
We've got this great lead for you... (Score:5, Funny)
Reducing the threat? (Score:4, Insightful)
Or did they hire him to make him less of a threat?
Re:Reducing the threat? (Score:3, Interesting)
Why hasn't anyone put forth the idea that maybe the product made the sale more than the salesman did? Microsoft should be studying the strengths of GNU/Linux and how to properly counter them with solutions instead of sales and marketing.
The only difference between the Titanic and Microsoft is, the Titanic had a band.
-JemReminded of... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Reminded of... (Score:3, Funny)
HOMER: This is it Marge. I've poured my heart and soul into this business and now it's finally paying off. (covering his mouth) We're rich! Richer than astronauts.
MARGE: Homer quiet. Acquire the deal.
HOMER: (to Gates) I reluctantly accept your proposal!
GATES: Well everyone always does. Buy 'em out, boys!
(g
Be wildly successful (Score:3, Insightful)
Thanks for turning the obvious into yet another anti-MS rant. Perhaps you should go into the inspirational poster business.
Yeah, so (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow (Score:4, Funny)
Can I expect an appointment letter ?
C++ chair i think is old news (Score:5, Informative)
Re:C++ chair i think is old news (Score:3, Informative)
Integrity (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Integrity (Score:5, Funny)
Seems there isn't such thing as integrity.
You do realize we're talking about sales here, right?
Never trust a man who gets paid on commission... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sales is about selling... it has precious little to do with making the world a better place.
Re:Integrity (Score:3, Insightful)
You missed philosophy 101. It's not that simple. Integrity can only be measured under a broader scope against his longer term behaviour.
It's certainly possible he has a lot of integrity in being a salesperson: integrity to the sales process, to taking on a particular assignment, and using respectable(!) sales techniques to make the sale. To assess this, we need to know more about the guy, his history and the tactics he uses.
Equally, I'm an engineer. I'd
Uh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Only on Slashdot, made up mostly of college students and unemployed, would it be considered a bad thing and a "lack of integrity" to sell things for one company and then go over and sell things for another.
It's not like the rest of the world views everything as "Windows vs. Linux" like you do. It's just another product the guy's gonna be selling. More power to him! The anti-capitalism mindset that permeates around here is so silly sometimes.
Not as silly as you think (Score:3, Insightful)
Of what use is the opinion of someone who is paid to think a certain way?
being anti-capitalism doesn't have anything to do with it.
Re:Uh... (Score:5, Insightful)
Depends on the job, and how you sell things. If you're selling second hand cars and you move to another state to sell them for a better salary, most people would not consider you lacking in integrity.
What we have here is different - only somebody incredibly naive would think that this guy made the sale of SuSE without once trashing or mentioning the bad points of Windows: seeing as how they are the closest competition and all. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was the main selling point: Linux is better than Windows because (a) (b) (c).
Now the guy is going to be telling people the exact opposite. In other words, at one or other of the jobs (most likely both) the guy will have been flat out lying.
To be frank, I don't give a toss that the guy is in sales. There's right and then there's wrong, and if you are are lying through your teeth to make a sale you're still a lier. If you are influencing huge, important decisions people make on the basis of things you don't believe yourself .... well, in my world view you have no integrity and your job position does not excuse that.
I'm not saying this guy has no integrity! I don't know what his sales technique is like. It's possible all he did was point out how great SuSE Linux is, and how it'd meet their needs better and didn't mention Microsoft once. It's possible, but unlikely.
In other words, ad hominem attacks lack honour and integrity - and by the way bonch, that holds true whether you're attacking products, people or places.
Juxtaposition of Headlines (Score:5, Funny)
"Recognize" talent? (Score:4, Funny)
Just thought I'd point that out -- this is a good move and everything, but hiring people that are already well-known in their field is neither A) necessarily good news for those of you stumping for MS jobs, or B) particularly cost-effective for Microsoft.
On a side note, the REAL message that this is sending to professionals around the world is this: Hurt Microsoft And Get Hired. Whether a lawyer, programmer, politician or standards' body member -- I encourage all exceptional individuals to put all of their skill towards the destruction of Microsoft. They like it! Really!
Bill Gate's biggest flaw (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Bill Gate's biggest flaw (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not just about hoarding. Many rich people don't have all that much ready to spend cash (but still way, way more than I can dream about). It's all about control. A rich person has a lot of say on who does what, what goes where, what gets developed and what is canned, and so on. They get streets named after themselves or their properties. Some use their own name as a brand name in an ultimate display of vainglory. They have the ear of other rich people and they form a social network that's not very accessible to "regular" folks. So not only do they have control over their own "domain", but they greatly impact "domains" of other rich people via their decisions and social communication.
This kind of problem is a problem of culture in my opinion. It's only solvable via education and evolution. People have to see in their hearts the damage they do with their selfishness and unrestrained ambition. Because as we well know, when one set of people tries to control another set of people by political power, it doesn't work. That change has to come from the inside of each person.
Re:Bill Gate's biggest flaw (Score:3, Insightful)
Companies are not in business to do good or to pay people x% of their revenues; a company is solely in business to profit. What Gates wants to do with his personal share of the pie is laudable, but if he tried to make it the company mission, he'd destroy the company in the process.
Linux better gain market dominance soon (Score:3, Insightful)
so? (Score:5, Insightful)
tough job market? (Score:3, Interesting)
I remember reading somewhere that there was a high demand for IT guys in the automotive industry... lemme google...
ah, there it is
New Cars getting too expensive to fix [csmonitor.com]
The interesting paragraphs are near the bottom:
"There's no shortage of general technicians, but there is a big shortage of qualified people to work on drivability and emissions issues," says Robert Rodriguez of Automotive Service Excellence. The Leesburg, Va., organization certifies repair shops and technicians.
These specialist technicians need advanced reading, problem-solving, and basic electronics skills, he says. "The best people to find are those who have worked in the IT [information technology] industry," he says.
Re:tough job market? (Score:3, Interesting)
Or they could hire anyone who has acquired a BS in chemistry, physics or engineering. These disciplines all train individuals to solve complex problems and to do it in a quantitative, reproducible and most importantly reportable manner. Not to call in question the problem solving skills of IT workers but hypothesis testing is not something typically encouraged in the IT world (or at least not by the mana
Re:tough job market? (Score:3, Insightful)
Yoo hoo, I'm back! (Score:4, Funny)
I think it would be amusing if this same salesmen, KarlAigner, can go back to the City of Munich and win them back to Microsoft products. That would be salesmanship!! :P
And the key phrase of the article is... (Score:3, Funny)
Ah, the good old days (Score:5, Funny)
Yocam maintains that Microsoft is luring personnel away with huge signing bonuses, some in excess of $1 million. "They have the audacity to send limos to Borland's headquarters to take Borland employees out to lunch. I mean, this has got to stop."
Ah, the good old days. Million-dollar signing bonuses. Limos for job prospects. Corvettes for hot programmers fresh out of college. Penthouse suites with the company logo in genuine Italian marble [gamespy.com].
Why did it ever have to end?
Oh, wait, don't answer that...
Re:Ah, the good old days (Score:5, Funny)
I am an *ace* Linux programmer. I have submitted thousands of patches to the Linux kernel (I'm afraid I don't understand how CVS works, so I'm not sure exactly how many were incorporated, but I'm guessing it's pretty damn near 100%).
I am available for hire, or indeed for lunch.
If the person I have lunch with could be female and attractive, that would be a double bonus, because I could tell my friends I had a girlfriend and get them to oogle us through the window of the restaraunt.
Please send the limo and a million dollar cheque to ###***censored by CmdrTaco***###
Thanks!
Robert
It's Going To Be Funny... (Score:3, Funny)
"Okay, you know all that stuff I told you? Nevermind. I've got something better, now... hey! Put down the pitchforks! Aiiiiieeee!"
The Darkside (Score:3, Funny)
Microsoft shill revealed (Score:5, Insightful)
Herb Sutter mentions planned C++/.Net CLR extensions being discussed for later inclusion in the C++ standard in last months C/C++ Journal. (Sorry, there is no link on their site yet.) I thought it odd that the chairman of such a standards board would mention M$ proprietary software so favorably. Then I saw that he works for M$ and understood perfectly. No conflicts of interest here. Enough to make you sick. I wonder what Stroustoup thinks of this. What next? A Microsoftie on Sun's Java steering committee perhaps?
Re:Microsoft shill revealed (Score:5, Informative)
Bjarne (and the rest of the C++ Standards Committee) seem to be pretty bright boys, and Herb is no patsy. I came away from the session with a lot of confidence that the C++ Standards Committee won't turn into a pack of Microsoft zombies, and ruin the language.
The
Al Pacino as Bill Gates (Score:3, Insightful)
More /. FUD (Score:3, Insightful)
This is *nothing* like the Borland lawsuit. Your own link says that's about hiring a large number of key staff thus draining the business.
This is about hiring one key person. Apart from hiring from a competitor (standard practice) there is no resemblance at all.
Typical MS Mentality (Score:3, Interesting)
Missed the point, surely? (Score:4, Funny)
If I write a database engine that even an idiot can administer, will Microsoft then hire the idiot?
Ade_
What to call this (Score:5, Insightful)
For example, the guy who designed the S2000 for Honda designed the 300ZX turbo for Nissan. (Both are benchmark designs for the auto industry.) David Gergen worked for both the Nixon and the Clinton administrations. (He may have worked for Reagan, but I'll need to check to be sure.) Hilary Clinton was president of her college's chapter of the Young Republicans, and technology companies exchange employees regularly.
Re:What to call this (Score:3, Insightful)
Believe me now but hear me later (Score:3, Funny)
Sales guy:
"All that stuff I told you when I was working for SuSE was BULLSHIT. But now, you can believe everything I say. We ... ah going to pump ... YOU up!"
that doesn't make it good... (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, that is great. There is also nothing wrong with taking such an offer.
But the effect is still anti-competitive. Microsoft has the money to buy up just about any talent around the world they like to. Where would the computer industry go if everybody who knows how to do anything gets hired by Microsoft? Because that's where this is going.
The people to do something about this are not Microsoft or the individuals involved, but government regulators.
Money Talks. Especially If You Have None. (Score:3, Interesting)
I remember laughing at Microsoft's posters at school. The company wanted to hire some inters for the summer, then, as the poster promised, the good ones would be offered full-time positions. At that point of time I said, "Bullshit, I am never going to work for them. I am a Linux geek. I hate that company!"
I have been out of college for almost a year. I wish I had applied to Microsoft and interned there instead of different small companies around New England. Why? Well, first of all, they offered a good paycheck, secondly, the company did not have major layoffs compared to some other IT giants. Finally, with $50K in loans, I could use a job that paid well.
Do not get me wrong, I still like Open Source and none of my home (and work) computers run Windows. However, paycheck is a paycheck. I am sure that sales guy felt the same way too. It is nice to do what is right, but sometimes you have to do what you must in order to survive. Good for him, I hope he does a good job and then gets out when shit hits the fan.
Like the old proverb says.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:BORG! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:BORG! (Score:5, Insightful)
*That's* how successful corporate raiding works.
Re:BORG! (Score:5, Interesting)
So your statement is completely misguided, and I assume that you aren't a C++ programmer that uses MS tools. Otherwise you would laud their efforts to bring the development community a solid (and partially free) tool [microsoft.com] for use under Windows.
Re:BORG! (Score:5, Interesting)
Which is a long held tradition in the business world. With the caveat that you cannot always do it -- there's that irritating little bit about freedom of choice. If someone doesn't want to sell their business to you (or, more particularly in this case) work for you, they don't have to.
And some guy is making the world better by furthering a standard. Let's hire him so that our C++ becomes the only stardard the world must follow.
Of course, the reality here is that VC++ was close to rock bottom when it came to meeting the ISO C++ standards (particularly in regards to the STL). Since Herb Sutter was hired by MS they have drastically improved compatibility with the standard, both in the compiler and in their STL. I don't think they're the most compliant, but they're a damn sight better than a lot of other compilers, GNU g++ included.
As for changing the standard for MS's benefit -- by merely stating that it proves that you have absolutely no clue how the ISO committees work, particularly when it comes to languages.
Oh, and in case you're wondering -- no, I don't use MS VC++. I code in Unix with g++. But I'm not a clueless moron.