Custom Debian Distributions 203
Andreas Tille writes "When the first Custom Debian Distribution - Debian Junior - started in the beginning of 2000 we did not expect that this would perhaps lead to a new way Debian could support its end users in general. The next step forward was done in DebConf3 in Oslo when several developers who care about Custom Debian Distributions met in person and decided to work together more closely. Finally at OSWC conference in Malaga took place a workshop aiming at exactly this issue. The result of the conference was to write a paper about Custom Debian Distributions to explain to the public what we had done and what we want to do. This is an implicit call for participation for all those people inside and outside Debian who work on the same goal: Enhance the role of Debian as the missing link between upstream software developers and end users."
Debian (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Debian (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Debian (Score:2)
The raw Debian in it's current state seems more like a "platform" and less like a distro...
I'd like to see Custom Knoppix Distributions. D/L an ISO and go.
Re:Re:Debian (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Debian (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Debian (Score:3, Informative)
We've gotten to the point where apt-get installing works from the livecd, and where debian packages on a directory on the livecd are installed at boot time, but we're a long way from per-package granularity. I'm not even sure we should go that far, as things get pretty messy with libraries et al. Being able to autobuild and autoinstall knoppix-like livecds is much more fun
Re:Debian (Score:2, Interesting)
I view Knoppix as a threat to adoption of Linux, risking marginalizing it as a toy or OS suitable for casual flirtation but undeserving of space on a harddrive. The ease it provides for a very shallow glimpse into Linux means that those trying it out never have to commit, and therefore never have to put effort into migration.
The natural human resistence to chance suggests that this will hinder the adoption of Linux on the desktop rather than spur it
Re:Debian (Score:2)
If you want to think of it as simply a toy thats all it will be to you, but don't discount it as a real tool just because it can run entirely from a cd.
Re:Debian (Score:3, Insightful)
I also don't *want* to think of it simply as a toy, and don't, so please don't misunderstand my comments. I like the fact that you can get a pretty functional Linux box going running live off a cd, and this speaks to the power of Lin
Re:Debian (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Debian (Score:2)
Re:Debian (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been handing Knoppix disks out to computer illiterate folks I know. They can use it as a toy, and get used to the idea that Linux is something they can use. Knoppix has some little games, a nice web browser, they can write stuff, they can get pictures from their digital cameras (I do have to show them how to do the last two things, since there aren't icons on the desktop for ``write a paper'' and ``digital camera''.).
For these guys, Knoppix means exposure to Linux, and just a little bit of familiarity and de-mistification. The lack of commitment is vital here: these guys are deathly afraid of screwing up their machines. This is definitely casual flirtation, but that's a huge step forward with this crowd.
I've been giving Knoppix disks to computer literate friends, too. For them, it's a chance to find out that Linux really does work on their hardware, that they really can do their work on it (they suspect that's true, so they're interested), and that they really can install it and keep it up to date.
For this bunch, there is usually some Linux application that they want to run, but the new set of system administration tasks and the installation difficulty scares them off. With Knoppix, they can see how easy it is to install, and they can seriously evaluate it. This is FAR from casual flirtation! Not all of this crowd winds up using Linux daily, but most of them wind up with it on their hard drives, and their minds are opened a bit.
Over all, I'd say that Knoppix is doing a lot of good. It's letting people progress a lot farther towards using Linux than they would ever go without this sort of distribution.
Re:Debian (Score:3, Insightful)
Debian has surpassed many goals.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Debian will continue to grow, as will the debian community hopefully for the better of the GNU/Linux world.
Re:Debian has surpassed many goals.. (Score:2, Insightful)
When I use Debian...what comes to mind is: "quirky"
It works. I liked APT when it was a small little addon tool for Redhat. Now in Debian...it's the tip of the iceberg called Debianism. I'm apt pinning, I'm switching from straight apt to aptitude because straight apt won't uninstall/remember dependencies. I'm learning all the work arounds because when you load up the official distro, you won't have hardware support for shit.
If you want a binary distribution.
Re:Debian has surpassed many goals.. (Score:3, Insightful)
If you want bleeding edge, don't use debian. I happen to live bleeding edge enough. I run debian testing and have some packages from unstable. I have gnome 2.6 from experimental. i have my apt settings so i will get testing packages by default, though. I've had very little trouble.
I used to run pure debian unstable. I would run into some problems, but it was pretty easy to use. I onl
Re:Debian has surpassed many goals.. (Score:2)
Re:Debian has surpassed many goals.. (Score:2)
Re:Debian has surpassed many goals.. (Score:2)
Copyediting? (Score:5, Interesting)
I Edit [hellskitchen.org]
Re:Copyediting? (Score:3, Interesting)
It begins at home (Score:5, Insightful)
- get a real usenet group, not just a gated email list
- create a friendly user community that doesn't slam people for asking questions "improperly"
On the first point, debian-users is a huge, high traffic list that. Being able to pop into usenet is preferable for someone with only an occasional question. The gated list has failed.
On the second point, people can & do to get turned away from a product by rude encounters.
Yah, some people claim that is fine that they don't want "your kind of user", but the quote above belies the fact that the Debian project people want end users.
All of the excuses for slamming people are washed away by the simple fact that reading and posting on the internet is 100% voluntary.
If someone thinks a question is unworthy they should not waste their time by finishing reading it and they certainly shouldn't spend their time answering the question.
Doing and complaining,/i> about either given the voluntary nature of the internet makes them look like a mean loser.
It also drives the end users the Debian project people say they want away.
Steve Both of these points are about providing accessible help and support.
Re:It begins at home (Score:2, Insightful)
As a pretty regular Linux user (Debian for several years) for 8 or so years, I wouldn't read Usenet ever... I don't see how that could help anything.
create a friendly user community that doesn't slam people for asking questions "improperly"
Let the third-party Debian distributions deal w/that. Debian users are a special breed. Just like RedHat and SuSE and various others. That's the great thing about Linux distributions. Don't like the community?
Re:It begins at home (Score:5, Insightful)
I really get sick of this elitest crap, that somehow a specific group is somehow "special". Before going off to become an engineer, I used to be a hardcore Linux user of Slackware and Debian, wow big deal, it's a personal choice. I'm a grad level engineer and this is a big problem in engineering as well; all the engineers think their flavor of engineering is the most righteous and everybody else is stupid, rather than realizing they all compliment each other and work together.
When I have internships, it's even worse, It was really tiresome listening to the thin films guys talk crap about the lithography guys that talked crap about...it never ended and all it did was cause great amounts of inefficiency and backstabbing.
In the end, this whole "us" versus "them" mentality causes exactly the kinds of problems described above, users being chided for asking "stupid" questions, people refusing to cooperate, etc.
Microsoft doesn't have to fire a shot if the Linux community chops themselves to pieces.
Re:It begins at home (Score:3, Funny)
You're right, that is immature and stupid.
.... Computer Science is obviously the best, all engineering is stupid. :)
Re:It begins at home (Score:2)
Re:It begins at home (Score:3, Insightful)
Debian is a distribution. It is a distribution that is community developed and based and one in which the contributers are proud. There is nothing wrong with that.
One of the general community values of using debian is the "militant" support of Free software. There is nothing wrong with beleiving in that.
When someone is a "special" breed, it does not mean that that person is "especially"
Re:It begins at home (Score:2)
It's something like "i know most people think that debian users are elitist, so i'll explode that sterotype." It is like this, "don't lecture me, I'm American!" The sterotype is that Americans are arrogant and so I'm playing on that sterotype. But it's a sterotype and not always true.
I should change it to make it more clear, but I haven't come up with a really good line yet.
Re:It begins at home (Score:2)
In the end, this whole "us" versus "them" mentality causes exactly the kinds of problems described above, users being chided for asking "stupid" questions, people refusing to cooperate, etc.
I don't see it as an us-vs-them fight. Its more of a difference of opinion.
There's this idea that GNU/Linux has to become the Next Windows or Next OS X. There's the idea that GNU/Linux has to be User Friendly, that it has to Cater to Newbies, and every application needs to be Useable without Reading the Man Pa
Re:It begins at home (Score:2, Flamebait)
I'm a Debian User, and I avoid the Debian community as much as possible. The "Third party distributors" are the only thing keeping Linux alive. The last thing the OS world needs is a continuation of plumber's crack computer t
Re:It begins at home (Score:2)
I suggest YOU get over YOURSELF and think about what I wrote.
I don't agree w/what they are doing but they are doing to themselves. I suggested that people move to the third-party developers. Isn't that what free markets supposedly do? People don't like one product because of whatever and it fails?
Re:It begins at home (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:It begins at home (Score:2)
The only 'special breed' in the Debian community is the dicks who think anyone who asks a question that should be obvious must have been conceived by a weak sperm. It has nothing to do with being a Debian guru and everything to do with some emotional insecurity. The kind of person who would maliciously tease a classmate who couldn't read. These sorts of people really do turn off newcomers from whatever group they're trying to get into.
I don't know what it is about debian, b
Re:It begins at home (Score:3, Insightful)
I once subscribed to the debian-user mailing list (a couple years ago) and stayed on for a few months. Then I got tired of all the damn POP3 traffic taking up my disk I/O every time the cron job started. That mailing list is too damn big! Usenet servers can better accomodate huge traffic like that, not to mention it would save bandwidth (instead of everyone forced to receive every message... what a waste!)
Now when I have a problem
Re:It begins at home (Score:3, Insightful)
My post made the point that they are simulataneously wanting a particular end and doing things to make that desired end not happen
There is a word for that and that word is not "smart" :).
Re:It begins at home (Score:3, Funny)
Re:It begins at home (Score:2)
Free market means that people will use what they feel comfortable with and that the better product should win over.
What they SHOULD do and what they WANT to do are two different things.
Compare with Gentoo (Score:3, Insightful)
The Gentoo forum attracts new users because it is an easy and user-friendly way to get help... it is also nicely designed. It doesn't require approval by a moderator to ask a question.
The Debian answer to every complaint is basically "this is free, we don't have to please you." Which is certainly true and understandable. But Gentoo is just as free.
So I recommend Gentoo to people who want to learn Li
The reason I run Debian... (Score:4, Insightful)
For the first few months, whenever I ran into a problem I couldn't figure out on my own, I called him (I lived in the same general neighborhood.) I also hung out in an IRC chat room where a bunch of kindly Linux users also hung out
Debian was the first distribution of Linux I ran (aside from Red Hat 5.2, which I ran for a day...), and most of what I know about Linux I learned on my Debian machines.
The moral of the story, I guess, is to have someone you know around to ask questions of. Among my friends just trying out Linux, I recommend Debian, and offer my advice.
Re:Compare with Gentoo (Score:3, Interesting)
One of the MAJOR advantages of gentoo is that it's easy to sit down for 20 minutes, learn how to create your own ebuilds, make one in 5 minutes and have it accepted the same day.
Debian just sucks for this.
Re:Compare with Gentoo (Score:2)
In Gentoo, you encounter things like USE flags when you simply use it enough, so you basically get most of the training for writing packages while using it.
Debian and Gentoo both have a history of really zealous users that like to tell the whole world how great their d
Re:Compare with Gentoo (Score:2, Funny)
Package name : apt-gentoo
Version : 0.0.1
* URL : http://www-jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~mma29/apt-gentoo /
* License : GPL version 2 or above
Description : enhanced package installation
apt-gentoo enhances the Debian package installation experience to make
it fully competitive with newly-popular source-based distributions.
As packages are installed, apt-gentoo automatically downloads the
Re:It begins at home (Score:2)
There are people who might post a question regarding a firewire module failing to load after updating to kernel 2.6.x, posting dmesg output and whatnot, and you have those who post "Why will not Debian install on my computer, please e-mail me the answer!!". These postings can not co-exist in the same forum. There will simply be too much noise for the more skilled users to stay interested i
Re:It begins at home (Score:2)
True, but nobody is forcing them to answer any questions.
If the find a question boring they can just ignore it.
The fact that they don't and that they are smart enough to know that the internet/irc/usenet is voluntary only leaves the reasons of immaturity/hostility/etc as a reason for slamming people.
Yah, Debian users are a "special breed" like the other poster
HOWTO Be Helped By The Debian Community (Score:4, Interesting)
On the other side, as someone who tries to help out with support, I see two general kinds of users. One is the type who just wants their hand held all the way through the process. They'll not bother to do a couple of google searches or search the Debian list archives. They won't bother with the manpage because "it takes too long to read" (as though logging in to IRC, asking your question, clarifying your question, and waiting for a response is any faster). Sometimes they'll even lie about what they actually did to their system. These people are amazing and get ridiculed. Those who troll and say "Debian sucks! I can't get this piece of crap to work, so I'm going to gentoo!" (as many people on slashdot recommend) tend to be astounded when the channel unanimously says "Ok, see ya later!" These people aren't treated very well, but that's because they're not treating anyone else very well in return.
On the other hand, users who ask smart questions and are willing to do some basic searches and reading are helped quite a bit. Many people in #debian genuinely try to help these people, because we can all see ourselves in this position. You're not guaranteed an answer, or even help (oftentimes no one can help with your question) but if you're willing to do a little bit of your own free tech support then you'll do just fine. Remember, when someone points you to a manpage or the Installation Manual (yes, there is one, and it's amazing how few people read it) it's not because they're being a dick, it's because the doc really does have the answer. An "RTFM" always comes with a pointer towards what to read in my experience, and if you're willing to listen you'll do fine.
Agreed. How do you expect to change that though? Debian is, by nature, a very open project, and as such places like debian-user and #debian are relatively unmoderated. Do you want to close off the lists somehow? Do you want to moderate them? Who do you propose to do the job? And by what guidelines? And by what mechanism? These are serious questions, and they don't have easy answers. "Fixing" a community isn't easy, and if you want to help I suggest hopping on debian-user or stopping by #debian and try and change things one user at a time.
Re:HOWTO Be Helped By The Debian Community (Score:3, Insightful)
We fix it the same way Debian is run, by open participation.
The people who will slam some
Re:It begins at home (Score:2)
they may be rude sometimes, but ussually you get an answer you need.
What about the Debian distribution for lawyers? (Score:5, Interesting)
Are those projects still in active development?
I would like to get involved in a distribution for lawyers... since I intend to become a lawyer before the year is up (taking the bar at the end of July).
Re:What about the Debian distribution for lawyers? (Score:5, Interesting)
Debian-Med [debian.org]
Debian-Edu [debian.net]
DeMuDi [demudi.org]
Debian-Desktop [debian.org]
Debian-Lex [debian.org]
Debian-NP [debian.net]
Debian-Accessibility [debian.org]
Re:What about the Debian distribution for lawyers? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What about the Debian distribution for lawyers? (Score:3, Funny)
Then:
apt-get install weasel
apt-get install moneygrubbing
apt-get install ambulancechaser
Differences between custom and based? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Differences between custom and based? (Score:3, Interesting)
For example, knoppix is a single bootable CD with all the expected packages. They have a fancy default GUI interface (gnome or something like that), nice pretty installer (x86 support only though, not the zillion other archs that debian supports) and roll it all up into a single coherent, but smal
Re:Differences between custom and based? (Score:5, Interesting)
From the user's perspective, they are going right to the source for support and bug reporting, rather than filtering everything through a third party. They don't need to worry about whether package foo from Debian main will work with their Debian derivative or not. And if package foo *does* break, someone is actually on the hook for fixing it, whereas with a derivative you're likely to encounter this:
User: Package 'foo' is broken when I use it with Debian derivative 'bar'. Help!
Derivative developer: Sorry, that's your problem. We don't maintain 'foo'.
Debian developer: Sorry, that's your problem, I don't run 'bar', so I can't debug it.
--
synrg at debian dot org
Re:Differences between custom and based? (Score:2)
If they had chosen the expression subproject (or perhaps metapackage) then they could have avoided many misunderstandings.
By the way I am looking forward to see xpilot-ng in Debian-junior
Upstream developers? (Score:3, Insightful)
If Microsoft referred to themselves as "upstream developers", they'd have hell to pay.
No. (Score:2)
"Upstream software developers" refers to the people who actually create the software. Debian takes their work and packages it for end users. Hence, they could accurately be called the link between upstream developers and end users. They are certainly not saying that they themselves are the upstream devels.
Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:3, Insightful)
1) ftp-able ISOs. No jigdo crap.
2) Recent updates. Something from the 21st century would be nice. Debian's "stable" is positively ancient.
3) If Debian wants more participants, then take a page from Linus -- lose the attitude. I want Linux, not a freakin' religion. We're peers, not apostles.
Randy
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:3, Funny)
I think BitTorrent would also be a good idea. To be more polite about it.
I want Linux, not a freakin' religion. We're peers, not apostles.
Oh, you already thought of BT. Good, then.
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:4, Insightful)
Jigdo isn't worth the time it takes to say it.
And why (0h why) do the debian installers insist on using stripped down kernels WITHOUT any compiled modules either? Whats the use of that?
For installation ISOs include nearly EVERY kernel module.
I had no end of trouble with debian and SID/Sarge installer BECAUSE the installation-time kernel had the right modules but the installed kernel didn't! I had to keep "recovering" from the installation CD to get a box with PCMCIA net drivers and spent ages trying to get a
Yeah I could have downloaded the whole kernel source and compiled it on a P75 laptop with 80MB RAM but I didn't think it worthwhile.
Sam
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:4, Informative)
I've been trying to get Debian on a box for the last couple of days and have been having a heck of a time. Gee, I want to use XFS - so, I snag an XFS enabled installer. Oops, I also want to use LVM. Hmm, there are installers for that too, but none that support both. Well, I did find one but it doesn't support USB devices (like my keyboard). C'mon guys, use anaconda or yast or something. It's all open source.
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:3, Insightful)
The installer problem is well known. But really, writing a pretty GUI interface to work on the wide variety of architectures [debian.org] that debian supports is no mean feat.
Would be nice to have a fancy GUI x86 opti
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2)
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2)
I can see the difficulty it would present. I would think that it would be a problem no matter where you were, though. XFS and LVM are not part of the standard kernel. I can't really suggest anything except doing an XFS setup first and then getting (maybe having to compile, but compiling in debian is nice. howtos abound.) an xfs and lvm ke
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2)
As far as XFS and LVM goes, LVM has been standard since at least the mid 2.4s and XFS since the late 2.4s (2.4.24 was when it was included as far as I remember, tho I'd need to go back through Marcello's release announcements to be certain).
I've no real complaint about XFS since I'm used to using an unofficial installer (SGI's for RedHat), but LVM
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2)
Second -- When I saw the release notice for debian installer beta 3 (on debian planet) i could have sworn I saw it say that this kernel (2.4.25) has xfs and lvm built in. I know there is also a iso for xfs, so the article might have meant that. I don't know.
As for DHCP... i don't know what to tell you. I've installed using the mini (3mb) and 100+mb iso wirelessly using DHCP to find my address. I have to assume it was with the nightly.
I wish you luck.
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2)
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:5, Informative)
Try this [debian.org]
2) Recent updates. Something from the 21st century would be nice. Debian's "stable" is positively ancient.
brainstorm:~# cat /etc/apt/sources.list
deb http://http.us.debian.org/debian unstable main contrib non-free
deb ftp://ftp.tux.org/pub/java/debian unstable main non-free
brainstorm:~# dpkg -l kdebase
ii kdebase 3.2.1-1 KDE Base ..
brainstorm:~#
Pretty recent, huh?
3) If Debian wants more participants, then take a page from Linus -- lose the attitude. I want Linux, not a freakin' religion. We're peers, not apostles.
Them just use it, man! U don't have to be an apostole to put the CD in the drive, intsall, boot and use it! It is a pretty damn good distro AND it worries about political/social questions, but if u don't care about that, fine, it stills a damn good distro!
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2)
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:3, Informative)
Linux is what it is (Free), and will *remain* what it is, because of the "religion". Having religion doesn't mean you have to attack other people, but it does mean preserving yourself in your own beliefs, or finding ways to adapt them. GNU does not feel any need to adapt, and the results have been quite good: Linux, the GNU tools, Gaim, OO.o, GNOME, GIMP, Samba, Apache (which has a compatible license last I knew)...
I get a little bit tired of people criticizing t
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:4, Informative)
Then why are the BSDs in an open and useful state? You have the typical myopia associated with religion, or since people like to point out no god is invovled here, cult.
You wouldn't tell your local preacher to shut-up for being a {bible,torah,koran,*}-thumper, would you?
If they stay in their church on preach only to the brainwashed, no. But if they go door to door and send messages to governments trying to convice them to officially follow the religion, then hell yeah I'll tell them to shut up!
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2)
Then why are the BSDs in an open and useful state? You have the typical myopia associated with religion, or since people like to point out no god is invovled here, cult.
I don't think the parent wasn't arguing that the FOSS movement wouldn't be possible without GPL defenders, just that if people now didn't defend the GPL, it would get trampled on.
About the myopia, that's not a statement of fact--it's just a feeling that you get when you think of "religion." Somehow, people of all sorts of faith are thoug
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2)
Elitism unleashed. Everything but everything boils down to philosophical self affirming debate.
The ball is blue.
T'isn't.
Yes, it is. I'm looking right at it.
That, of course, would depend on your ability to perceive reality in your current state. It appears as though, perhaps, because of your lack of understanding of my point of view (whic
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:3, Insightful)
Via the magic of apt-pinning [sbih.org] you can install packages from later sources onto woody, with dependencies being met as needed to install them.
It really makes it easier to run a secure ssh box, but get the most recent aptitude (for example).
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2)
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:2)
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:5, Informative)
What they do need: 1) ftp-able ISOs. No jigdo crap.
You mean like this [kernel.org] one, or would you prefer a different mirror [debian.org].
2) Recent updates. Something from the 21st century would be nice.
Well, could be wrong, but looks like gnome 2.6.0 packages [debian.org] began appearing on 3/27 for x86, and yesterday for power pc. How much more recent do you want? (does any other distro have gnome 2.6 yet?)
Debian's "stable" is positively ancient.
True, and I'm not happy about it either. But as I understand it consensus last summer was to wait on the new installer [debian.org]. Holdup seems to be getting folks to test it on all the different platforms [debian.org] Debian supports. Meanwhile Debian's "testing" is more stable than most folks releases; hell, so's their "unstable" for that matter.
Last I read Debian hopes to release "Sarge" this summer. You can help that happen by testing the installer [debian.org].
Re:Debian just doesn't get it. (Score:3, Funny)
Oh, wait, you said "attitude."
-matthew
Debian continues to improve! (Score:5, Interesting)
I've been very impressed with the stability and with apt. I do wish that Debian had a little quicker package release but at the price, I really can't complain too much.
Yesterday I had a another wonderful experience during an install. We have an old Dell PowerEdge 2000 PIII 450 w/ Perc/SC2 raid. I was having trouble getting it going under the Woody install. For grins, I decided to try the Sarge installer [debian.org]. EVERYTHING just worked! It saw the Intel EEPro100 and the RAID controller - both of these were problematic under Woody.
Of course I would like a faster release and better hardware detection during install. Kudzu with Knoppix does work well. Packages that I want to run right now are still not packaged in .deb (Zope 2.7, Plone 2.0)but it's not a show-stopper.
The bottom line, Debian has the true open-source community and distribution. It has excellect quality control. It has excellent responsiveness to security issues. Debian has the potential to be the "one true distribution" and Sarge is looking very good!
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Debian continues to improve! (Score:2)
Re:Debian continues to improve! (Score:2)
Re:Debian continues to improve! (Score:2)
My comments about "one true linux" are not meant to be elitist. Linux in my mind should be primarly open source and primarily developed by volunteers. The path of linux should follow the needs of the people who are willing to develop, test, and volunteer on the project. RedHat, Mandrake, Suse, etc. are trying to drive Linux to commercial sucess - RedHat esp.
In some respects, I don't want Linu
Debian needs a subdistro with less archs (Score:4, Interesting)
While most of the trolls from Gentoo Zealots (No attack vs Gentoo here, I'm a Gentoo user myself) and the like are unfounded because they speak vs packages in Woody; there are still a ton of packages in sarge and sid that are less than current.
The problem with this is not the fault of the Debian Developers, it's the fact that Debian supports a vast number of architectures as well as a vast number of packages, causing QUITE alot to update, even with a minor version number change on one package.
NetBSD is the only platform other than debian to successfully nearly this many architectures. The way that NetBSD does it is source packaging; I do not think that this is the way for debian to go.
What needs to happen is a project to support Debian for a few platforms: the x86, the PPC, the sparc, and maybe two or three others. Classic Debian would run parallel to this, and obscure archs would still be supported.
Two new package trees, called something like desktop-sarge and desktop-sid, would be mirrors of the sid and sarge trees, but only support the major archs. This way, a DD doesn't have to compile vs 37 or whatever archs before he updates his package; the new version would come out for the major archs early, and the obscure archs could wait until however long it took.
Instead of everyone waiting for months.
Re:Debian needs a subdistro with less archs (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Debian needs a subdistro with less archs (Score:2)
If you could point to source repositories, daring end users could download the source packages when they hit a new version, bump up the number, see if it works untweaked, fix it if not, and send the info back to the maintainer.
There are 3 types of users for a distro--developers and maintainer
Re:Debian needs a subdistro with less archs (Score:3, Informative)
A Debian source package normally contains the "pure" upstream source of the software, a bunch of Debian-specific patches, and a few control files to set consistent compile-time options, which are used by the dpkg-buildpackage tool.
Often if you need a shinier version than even Unsta
Re:Debian needs a subdistro with less archs (Score:4, Interesting)
Still, why does this not happen more often, then? It seems like the users are just sitting around waiting for things to be done for them. Granted, updating packages isn't something you can expect end users to do, but I hear a lot of so-called "experts" complain about how software is old in Debian.
I'm about to try rebuilding Crux with a cvs glibc and binutils with NTPL instead of linuxthreads. I suppose I could do the same with debian, just install dpkg in my temporary build environment and figure out how to use dpkg-buildpackage.
Re:Debian needs a subdistro with less archs (Score:3, Informative)
Because it's always easier to bitch about things than to try and fix them. Frequently, people will do both, but you only see the bitching.
figure out how to use dpkg-buildpackage.
It might be worth reading the APT HOWTO [debian.org], specifically the section on Working with source packages [debian.org].
Furthermore, the Beyond Packaging [debian.org] section of the Debian Developer's Reference [debian.org] contains useful info on contacting package maintainers and reporting bugs.
Re:Debian needs a subdistro with less archs (Score:2)
Then it seems that Debian has more of a problem with this than other distributions.
Redian, or maybe Debhat (Score:5, Insightful)
Mandrake and Suse have a single admin suite that does everything. Some people love them, and I'll admit that they do look polished. I just don't like having to have a bunch of extra backends installed for hardware and services I don't have just to have the admin tool installed. I haven't really tried Ark, Lycoris, Lindows, or Libranet (Ark wouldn't either wouldn't install or wouldn't run after install, I forget) but my assumption is that being KDE based, they have the same feel of one big tool.
I really like the package selection available on Debian. But getting things to run the way I want can sometimes be a chore. On a previous attempt at debian I had trouble with IDE drivers after install. I couldn't get my USB mouse to work and was ridiculed on #debian for loading the usbmouse module instead the obvious task of installing usbmanager. When I asked the #debian folks for the location of an testing/unstable net install CD it took ten minutes of people asking why I didn't want to use floppies to install stable and then dist-upgrade. I don't have a floppy.
The new instaler is a super awesome step. I like that the debian install actually installs a kernel package now, and that in expert mode I can choose which kernel to install. But fonts still suck ass and I can't seem to improve some of them (gdm, the gnome login splash screen, and the gnome logout dialog). I didn't have trouble getting my USB mouse to work this time, but I can't get my thinkpad 600X's touchpad to work (and yes I've tried the config from the sites on the webring found at www.linux-thinkpad.org). Red Hat and Mandrake support the PS/2 touchpad and hotplugging a USB mouse out of the box. Copying my RH config didn't work. Configuring it by hand per the docs doesn't work.
I've recently discovered (in the process of installing flashplugin-nonfree and msttcorefonts) the update-* commands. But they seem to be there mostly to effect changes you have written into the config files already. I've found nothing so far on Debian which helps me get the config files right.
So finally arriving at the point of my post, I would like to see Red Hat's system-config-* set of single-purpose config tools ported to debian. I do realise that the RH tools aren't the penultimate solution (they haven't worked for me getting a Riva TNT2 with nvidia driver and Voodoo2 with tdfx driver dual-head setup working so far), but I think they're better than anyone else's offerings so far.
Re:Redian, or maybe Debhat (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Redian, or maybe Debhat (Score:4, Informative)
I take it you know about dpkg-reconfigure?
Re:Redian, or maybe Debhat (Score:2)
Debian in a nutshell. (Score:2, Insightful)
+ Good influence on the free software community
- Elitistic tendencies
- Lots of flamewars
- Moving too slowly
? Conservative
? Lots of packages
? Supports many architectures
For me personally, the last points are negative. I don't mind about 11 architectures, since most of them I will never use. In my summary, Debian actually ends up with negative score. But this is subjective of course. For some people, 11 architectures are more important than a release with current software.
Debian Troll (Score:2)
Dubious about Distros (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm currently working my way through the book Linux From Scratch, and as the host for that I used a massively stripped install of RH 7.3.
I figure if I want emphasis on us
IHBT (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, in terms of the former, RMS has pissed off the Debian community quite a bit lately. Between the GFDL fiasco and his labeling Debian as not free enough because it has the non-free section of the archive, he's not been too kind to what is undoubtedly the distro most concerned with Free Software as such.
As for the latter, there's all sorts of distro bashing in any forum. That's the way it is. It's called friendly rivalry. If you actually look at what's going on above the IRC level, there's a lot of real cooperation going on between the distros, for all the petty rivalry. Lots of Debian Developers, for instance, are employed by Redhat.
Yes, mwilson is a complete and utter ass hole. Yes, he's known to be as such. But you're judging a whole channel based on one guy. You do have
The Debian Developers have, as a whole, written off #debian. I think most developers would want to see it as totally separate from the project as a whole, which at this point it probably is. A major reason for that is that the users don't let the project know that they want a good IRC channel where they can get help. Most developers see it as useless. If you want the channel to be more tightly regulated by the project, I recommend sending a mail to debian-project and letting them know how you feel. If there's enough people who really want the channel to be policed differently and brought more in to the fold of the project itself, please speak up so you can actually influence things. Unless you'd rather just complain on slashdot more.
Way to judge an entire distribution based on its IRC channel. Talk about professional!