InformationWeek On Windows-Linux Interoperability 268
prostoalex writes "InformationWeek magazine has a lengthy article about the issues that enterprises face when vying for Linux+Windows interoperability, as most of the corporate infrastructures are seldom monocultural. What's also interesting is the InformationWeek surveys of the IT professionals. The following questions are asked and the responses to them are nicely graphed: 1) Reasons for choosing Windows, 2) Reasons for choosing Linux, 3) Top Windows concerns, 4) Top Linux concerns, 5) Top interoperability issues."
Primary Issue (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Primary Issue (Score:2)
If Microsoft believed in being Linux-friendly (Score:2)
Years ago in Byte. (Score:4, Interesting)
"As soon as a Unix get over 1,000,000 seats, we will port Office over to it"
Re:Years ago in Byte. (Score:2)
Office would be a welcome addition to the SCO product family.
But please don't try to port it over to Linux after that. We would have to cancel your Windows license. So long, and thanks for all the money!
Darl McBride.
Re:Years ago in Byte. (Score:2)
Re:Years ago in Byte. (Score:2)
I had exactly that same thought. But I wonder if they would be willing to lose those 1M customers in order to kill a competitor? And, it doesn't explain the absence of: MS Project, Access, or a good v.X Exchange client, even still.
Re:Years ago in Byte. (Score:2)
Seriously, "Unix" is very vague, and the above is a "Unix port" after a fashion, so...
Re:Years ago in Byte. (Score:2)
Re:Years ago in Byte. (Score:2)
Indeed, several years ago at least, when I last looked, MS Word required write access to its DLL(s?) on Windows NT. I don't know when or if this *ahem* "minor security issue" was addressed.
Re:If Microsoft believed in being Linux-friendly (Score:2)
Re:If Microsoft believed in being Linux-friendly (Score:2)
And until companies can be absolutely sure that they will have *no* issues/hassles/lost time because they arent using the tried and true method, they wont consider it.
Its just a fact. Same with exchange. So, until MS fully opens up their document standards etc, or another standard becomes prevalent, its just not good enough.
I wish it werent so
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:One of the biggest issues, though... (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:One of the biggest issues, though... (Score:2)
You sure are.
First of all, you must have overseen that a lot of companies block all .doc/.xls/.exe attachements because of viruses. Yes, they do and did so for several years by now.
Then, you must have overlooked that there are lots of interoperability problems withing MS Word itself. How often have I heard "I can't read that, please resend it in Word97 format", I don't think that saying "I can't read that, please resend it in rtf-format" will cause any more problems.
Re:One of the biggest issues, though... (Score:2)
So far, having run for about a month, I've only had one little issue, and one in which IMO Open Office works better - if a Word document has text in style "Heading 4", which doesn't have numbering, it seemed to add 0.0.0.1 to the start of the line. But, the text was really a document title, so had been "styled" wrong in Word.
that's a small issue. (Score:3, Insightful)
I like how you got worst and word confused.
This is really no problem. Anyone can have one dinky M$ box in the corner when confronted by such ignorance. Most companies will take a pdf or text file. Proposals are, after all, text rather than type set publication. The person sending them out can be trained in Microsoft pain if the lost business justif
Re:One of the biggest issues, though... (Score:2)
Re:One of the biggest issues, though... (Score:2)
That's where CodeWeavers' CrossOver Office [codeweavers.com] comes in to play.
Security drubbing (Score:3, Interesting)
I guess we should be glad that most people are apparently not falling for their "Trustworthy Computing" horseshit. The numbers in this poll show that this summer of worm after virus after worm after virus has really put Microsoft under a cloud. It will probably take them at least five years to even begin to win back security mindshare, and that's assuming there's not another SQL Slammer or Blaster waiting to happen in that time.
~Philly
"Keep your friends close and your enemies closer." (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:"Keep your friends close and your enemies close (Score:2)
Price... (Score:2, Interesting)
With RedHat wouldn't you just have to buy one copy of their standard edition software and be able to install it on multiple servers? Would t
Re:Price... (Score:2)
Re:Price... (Score:4, Informative)
I also wish IT Week would have pointed out that $599 for SBS 2003 doesn't include support of any kind. One incident requiring MS phone support and you've immediately eclipsed the price of RH Enterprise w/support. Not to mention that one of SBS 2003's biggest value points is Exchange server, which (in any reasonably large enterprise) necesitates a second layer "Mail router" to dump all the worms, virii, and spam before they hit the Exchange box and bring it to its knees... Think PostFix + Spam Assassin + a good set of attachment blocking rules.
Maybe I'm wrong (I'm sure someone will point me out if I am,) but I was under the impression that with SBS you had to run it all on one server. Is this still/Was this ever the case? Do extra servers under SBS cost extra money? (I've never worked anywhere that could consider SBS, since the limit is 50 users, so I'm admitedly ignorant of some facets of an SBS environment.)
Re:Price... (Score:2)
Two points. A) The organization that is running MS Small Business Server has 5-50 employees needing a workstation/email account, so they probably do not have on staff a full time IT person. If they do, they have one most
Re:Price... (Score:2)
But certainly, those MS Certified Partners don't work for free... And if you're comparing the price of SBS without copmputing the cost of maintaining it (whether its FTE, or an MS Partner doing the m
Re:Price... (Score:2)
You can download Advanced Server, install it on as many machines as you like, all for free - both beer and speech. If you want support with that, you have to agree to their license agreements, and this is reasonable - otherwise a shop with 100 machines would take out 20 support licenses, then when one broke it would always be conveniently one of the 20.
Re:Price... (Score:2)
Re:Price... (Score:3, Insightful)
They are not limiting your rights to install their products on another server. They are limiting your rights to do that AND get support for it as well. If you don't care about support, no problem!
They are allowed to do this, in exactly the same way that I am allowed to give you Knoppix and say "I will give you help learning Linux as long as you buy me a beer". I am not restricting
Re:Price... (Score:2)
No, it's not. You can make copies without getting Red Hat's help on those other copies - you just have to cancel your support contract on that first copy too. You can install as many copies of their server as you want, but you have to buy support on all or none of them.
Re:Price... (Score:2)
Only if the something of value is something you had in the first place. "An interminable support contract with Red Hat" is not something you have.
Suffering an adverse effect if you do something sure sounds like a "restriction" to me.
In that case it's not just Red Hat violating your interpretation of the GPL. I've assisted people installing and using Linux, but only done so if they were using one of the distros I'm f
That's not insightful... (Score:4, Informative)
Red Hat has per-server licensing now. If you buy a copy, you are allowed to install it on one server only, unless you buy more support seats.
No, if you buy support for one machine you can't "install" that support on multiple machines, any more than you can buy insurance for one car and "install" it on multiple cars. This isn't a GPL issue, you just didn't understand what they were saying.
-- MarkusQ
Re:That's not insightful... (Score:2)
Re:That's not insightful... (Score:2)
Maybe you should learn to read.
I can read, thank you. What I can't do is find anywhere in the EULA for RH or RHN that says what you are saying it does. Could you please quote the section you are refering to, and tell me where you found it? (I promise, I'll make the effort to read it, even if I have to sound out some of the big words).
-- MarkusQ
So maybe it was insightful... (Score:2)
Well I'll be darned. I took it to be for the service contract, but the way that's written your interpretation seems at least as plausible.
-- MarkusQ
Longhorn Linux Sub-system... (Score:2)
+2
Re:Longhorn Linux Sub-system... (Score:2)
It certainly might. They already make a product called Microsoft SFU/Interix, which is a UNIX subsystem for Windows.
It wouldn't be that hard for them to make Interix binary-compatible with Linux. (Although I think a built-in X server is unlikely
Re:Longhorn Linux Sub-system... (Score:2)
But if Sony vs. Connectix has taught us anything, they'll end up in court anyway for reverse-engineering, even though that's entirely legal.
Re:Longhorn Linux Sub-system... (Score:2)
Remember Microsoft has a duty to their investors to squash Linux and their #1 playing card is interoperability, and apps. #2 is integration costs. Many phb's perfer a solid consilidated platform to lower costs. Of course this never happens but MS loves to tout this.
VB for example was designed to be proprietary as possible and MS prefered its cutomers to use that rather then VisualC. Well these VB apps can never be ported to Linux? Never.
Apple on the otherhand, needs more apps and i
Interoperability v compatability (Score:5, Insightful)
eg. all mp3 players play the same mp3s. One mp3 can play on all players because of the standard.
In order to sell an mp3 player it either has to have better features that the standard implements or have more human=friendly features eg. its smaller, better looking etc.
Here microsoft coes out with a system. Then the OSS teams try to reverse engineer it and create a compatable system. Then microsoft changes it.
Therein lies the problem. Microsoft is not trying to interoperate. OSS is trying to be compatible. They are always following, and not creating. Mainly because they don't have a market base to force products onto to get a lead.
OSS needs a killer-app style product/system/something to get the lead, so that microsoft will have to try to be compatible.
True interoperability cannot happen without support from bothsides. OSS just needs to make microsoft want to help. Easier said than done.
Re:Interoperability v compatability (Score:2)
The goal for OSS is to make the customer think "You know, I could avoid all this hassle by using open source exclusively."
Not quite: Interoperability v compatability (Score:2)
The goal for OSS (as I see it at work and at home) is to function well. The goal for Microsoft is to make money, and so far they have used "integration" (what they label "innovation"), exclusivity and counter-interoperability to achieve that goal.
Each system has its place. I've set up a Win2k workstation for my wife, a Linux workstation for myself, and a Linux server for her database back-end. I will not "move up" to XP due to my concern for interoperability with my Linux systems, Microsoft's increasi
Re:Interoperability v compatability (Score:3, Informative)
OSS needs a killer-app style product/system/something to get the lead, so that microsoft will have to try to be compatible.
We already have one. It's called Apache.
Valid criticisms (Score:5, Interesting)
The second point, accountability, is where managers, in my experience get concerned. While it was great that the company didn't get mugged on licenses, the learning curve for the admins is relatively steep compared to Monopolized Systems that are managed at the crayon level.
Businesses want to know that, in the event of the bus flattening the admin, they can get a replacement, and not here some line like "uhh, I'm a vi user, and my predecessor, apparently an Emacs LISP fetishist, (ran (the (whole (network (with {these (crazy (macros))))))))".
IANAT. In fact, I've reached a state of total agnosticism about platforms, languages, and licenses as a result of
Ulitately, I hope the market does, too, in favor of what really matters: standards.
Accountability worries (Score:3, Interesting)
They're quite right to worry, and it's very nice to see that message getting through. I wonder if there's any platform in which the vendor makes a binding promise that the product will work?
Accountability? (Score:2)
Take a look at the graphs on page 3 and 4, listing the concerns for Windows and Linux, respectively.
The scale for the two graphs is different.
Even though accountability is the #2 issue for Linux, it comes in at between 35%-40% of respondents. For Windows, even though it is fourth on the list, it comes in at right between 30%-40%.
In other words, it's no more significant an issue for one than for the other.
whoa! thems some odds. (Score:2)
Your admin was run over by a bus? That's rare for two reasons. First, I've never heard of a M$ shop with a ratio of boxes to admins much better than 20:1. Second, 95% of all admin deaths reported in the last two years have been due to email worm induced exhaustion. Deaths from busses must be someware down around 0.0001% You must have a five 9 shop! Nice work.
On a serious note, any scripting that ha
Management tools? (Score:3, Insightful)
Here's my response to some of the linux 'problems':
Lack of an integrated software environment- What is that supposed to mean? Does it mean that I can choose what stuff I want to use? With MS, there's one choice. With linux, there's multiple choices for software to use. I don't quite get what they're saying with this one. If someone knows, then I'd like to understand better.
Lack of a clear roadmap- Well, the idea with linux is to make it more stable, faster, and more secure (not necessarily in that order). What more of a 'product map' do you want? MS isn't going to come up with the next killer app of the internet. All of the other big applications have come out of open-source groups.
Accountability if problems arise- This means that the top IT person wants some one else to take the blame if something bad happens. Everyone knows MS stuff doesn't work perfectly, so if it screws up, it's not the admin's fault. With linux, if it screws up, most people (correctly) blame the admin.
I bet a lot of problems come up becaue when a company switches from windows to linux, the admins expect it to work the same, which couldn't be farther from the truth. Linux uses different programs, and often times, the best way to configure it is vi and a man page or two. With windows, it's all point-and-click.
Just my 0.02
Re:Management tools? (Score:2)
An ideal operating system, from a training standpoint, is one where each task can be performed easily using a single, logical step. Honestly, I doubt such an OS really exists - but Windows (largely because of the lack of choices it offers) comes much closer to making training easier than Linux does.
Most co
Re:Management tools? (Score:2, Informative)
The misunderstanding came from the fact that there are actually two distinct ways to move text around. One is by hitting Ctrl-C/X/V or using the menus, that puts it on the clipboard, and you can paste it with similar options.
The other way is more like drag and drop, when you highlight something and middleclick or click both buttons on a 2-button mouse. That way isn't really copying and pasting. This has been around since the beginning of X afaik.
You can copy something, then hi
Copy/paste doesn't work now (Score:2)
Part of the problem is getting people to agree that ctrl c/v should be supported, so many programs don't get tested for that. GAIM, up until about 8 months ago, had ctrl+c bring up a color wheel!
I can still reliably *NOT* have copy/paste work in KDE 3.1.3. Copying something WILL put it in Klipper, and it's got a checkbox next to it, but won't be 'active' until I select it from the Klipper area anyway.
Little crap like that just isn
Re:Copy/paste doesn't work now (Score:2)
Re:Management tools? (Score:2)
>>>>>>>>
Yes? At least in an xterm. Probably not between the console and X, but in Windows, there is no console so its not the same comparison.
How about between two different X apps? Probably, but people keep finding little quirks in it.
>>>>>>>>>
I have yet to see this be a problem in practice. The real problem is that the clipboard's rules are different from in Windows. The X clipboard is mo
Re:Management tools? (Score:2)
PS> How does copy&paste in cmd.exe work? Just tried it on a Windows machine, and you can't
Re:Management tools? (Score:2, Troll)
My dictionary defines the word "integrated" as "formed or blended into a whole"...the word "choose" does not appear anywhere.
With MS, there's one choice. With linux, there's multiple choices for software to use.
Actually, I have found multiple choices of software to use on MS as well.
I don't quite get what they're saying with this one. If someone knows, then I'd like to u
yes, dump Microsoft now. (Score:2)
Equivalence has been apparent for about five years, superiority of free software for two years or so.
Perhaps some more details on exactly how it will become "more stable, faster, and more secure", and perhaps a rough idea about when it will be available.
The future is indeterminant and you should use what's available now, but the trends are all in favor of fr
Re:Management tools? (Score:2)
Microsoft doesn't know this either. The difference is, that doesn't stop them from telling you that they do. Their timeline is considerably *less* predicable than that of Linux, when it comes down to reality.
Re:Management tools? (Score:2)
So with Linux you get no roadmap, with Microsoft you get very unreliable roadmap, I'm not sure Microsoft has a very big advantage here..
Re:Management tools? (Score:2)
Re:Management tools? (Score:2)
I think what these admins are talking about is that in Windows, configuration is fairly centralized. Most configuration is done using one tool (Microsoft Management Console). This
What keeps linux out of some of my offices... (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, Ive tried suse slox and ive tried the outlook connector -- but when an address book sorts by company and creates a bunch of blank entries for an entry with no company -- it does not work.
If someones could get on the ball in that arena, I would think a few more people would be switching over.
Re:What keeps linux out of some of my offices... (Score:2)
Re:What keeps linux out of some of my offices... (Score:2)
You need to run Ximian Evolution [ximian.com], and purchase the Ximian Connector [ximian.com] for Microsoft Exchange. With Ximian Connector installed, Ximian Evolution functions as an Exchange 2000 client, enabling users to become full participants in company-wide group scheduling and other collaborative tasks, including accessing public folders and Global Address Lists, personal email, calendar, and task lists, and group scheduling information. It's great!! We experimented with it where I work while evaluating different calendarin
Re:What keeps linux out of some of my offices... (Score:2)
the clients are stuck in windows for another craptastic reason -- a web based system that has bad html that only works in IE
details please (Score:2)
No they don't. They want some of the features those two programs have to offer. What exactly are the features that you don't know how to replace with free software? Viruses and worms are about all I can think of. Give a list and I'm sure someone here will fix you up.
If someones could get on the ball in that arena, I would think a few more people would be switching over.
Get hopping man, after the last two years of Blasters, Slammers, Red
Re:What keeps linux out of some of my offices... (Score:2)
Sorry, not *my* head. My boss, the guy who built the company from the ground up and now pays my salary is the one who apparently has his head up his ass. See there's the problem. The boss says Outlook stays. He's willing to pay the money. So I need Exchange. He'll pay for that too, but doesn't really care, as long as Outlook works for him. Give me a linux-based drop-in-replacement, and I'll
Re:What keeps linux out of some of my offices... (Score:2)
Graph scale different - not obvious, but important (Score:5, Insightful)
A quick visual comparison makes it seem that people are as worried about "Lack of a complete and fully integrated software environment" and "Accountability if problems arise" on Linux as they are about the top MS Windows issues, "Software quality or vulnerabilities" and "Cost of ownership is too high". Not so -- in fact, the top concerns with Linux are down near the middle of the MS Windows scale.
Integration is a problem with Windows (Score:2, Interesting)
The integration of the two products makes it difficult and more costly to administer.
Re:Integration is a problem with Windows (Score:2)
At the risk of quibbling with you here, I've run forestprep and domainprep in existing Exchange/AD environments many times and it never caused my "Exchange to go down". Survey says something else was involved.
Actually, having Exchange integrated with the AD can be a real godsend in recovery. In the Exchange 5.5 days, if you lost your Exchange server to a failure, you lost both your data store *AND* your directory. Now,
Microsoft are shooting their feet (Score:2)
Anyway, isn't it part of the DOJ settlement that they provide information on their protocols?
Interoperability? (Score:2)
Both sides need to work together more...
Re:Interoperability? (Score:2)
Sure it can, what are you talking about? If you want to mount these from the commandline however you have to escape the slashes and it turns out being:
-- iCEBaLM
Re:Interoperability? (Score:2)
Microsoft's View of Interoperability (Score:2)
The evidence of interoperability (Score:2)
Pos. Requests Site name Average Max Latest OS Server Netblock Owner
1 13458 www.microsoft.com 51 202 43 Linux Microsoft-IIS/6.0 Level 3 Communications, Inc.
2 4098 www.netcraft.com 24 319 7 FreeBSD Apache/1.3.26 (Unix) mod_perl/1.27 Netcraft
3 2839 www.google.com 73 172 11 Linux GWS/2.1 Google Inc.
4 2623 www.daiko-lab.co.jp 1613 1660 1661 FreeBSD Apache/1.2.4 Daiko Corporation
5 2356 www.yahoo.com 44 229 79 FreeBSD unknown HotJobs.com, Ltd.
6 2287 microsoft
Re:The evidence of interoperability (Score:2)
make my day . . . (Score:2, Funny)
To which I reply, Go ahead.
Wine (Score:4, Insightful)
As somebody who is available for hire to make apps (any apps) work on Linux via Wine, I must point out that this is just blatently not true. I (and many others) have been hired before by companies wishing to move their infrastructure to Linux. For custom software, the job is often reasonably straightforward as the source is available, but even for 3rd party apps the company uses it is still possible.
So, to say there is no interoperability is not true. Typically, if you do the math, you may find it is cheaper to hire a Wine developer for a time to make your apps work on Linux than continue to license Windows for all the machines needed.
Missing poll options! (Score:2)
Where's "Bill says I should. I MUST OBEY!!!"
OSDL study intos calendaring (Score:2)
Linux (specifically for cross-compatibility in
mixed Linux/Windows environments). It shows
that calendaring is the achilles heel for Linux
currently, presents some analysis of several
commercial and open source packages that sort of
do it, and outlines what is really needed.
http://www.osdl.org/projects/cmptblclndrng/resu l ts
Additional info available at the website:
http://www.osdl.org/projects/cmptblclndrng/resul ts
Re:OSDL study intos calendaring (Score:2)
Actually, I've started designing a one-stop school solution that will eventually provide calendaring (I'm trying to work with a school on which I do web devleopment, which is looking to roll out a web-based interface to various things; NuSchool is a direct offshoot of these planning sessions).
I am trying to make it modular (i.e. calendaring system, mailing list system, etc.) and so the individual sub-projects should be removable and/or integrable to other projects. It will likely wor
Re:OSDL study intos calendaring (Score:2)
Actually, I've started designing a one-stop school solution that will eventually provide calendaring.
Note that there's a number of projects with
similar aims to be a complete Exchange
replacement, including calendaring, addressbook,
yada yada. This 'shotgun' approach makes sense
for many, who are trying to address near-range
needs of customers on a limited budget. What
we're hoping to see is a 'sniper rifle' solution
that specifically focuses on providing a very
good calendaring solution - in fact, Kees and
Re:OSDL study intos calendaring (Score:2)
The point is that groupware is mainly useful for (large) businesses. You will not get everyone to migrate to a Linux/OSS desktop together (some will never move), so your server must be able to work with the legacy MS Outlook.
You can either pretend to be an exchange server, or write your own MAPI module to plug into outlook - this seems to be the way that others are doing
Never Thought I'd Hear That (Score:2)
Maybe that is a statistically insignificant figure, but I am surprised that anybody expects MS to be compatible with anything (other than MS software, of course).
These managers are either stupid or way ahead of their time. I am hoping for the latter.
Survey interesting indeed (Score:2)
Also, one of the ad displayed while I was browsing the article was quite ironic IMHO. It was a Microsoft ad claiming th
Watch the Graphs (Score:3, Interesting)
Wow, the graphs from the article are kind of scary. The Windows Worries graph's first item is 80% of "business-technology professionals" are concerned with software quality issues or vulnerabilites in Windows. However, on the Linux Concerns graph, the first item is only 40% of "business-technology professionals" are concerned that Linux lacks "a complete and fully integrated software environment".
While anybody would agree that 40% is less than 80%, the two charts are the same width, and a casual glance would certainly give the impression that people are more concerned with Linux problems than with Windows problems. This is disturbing since there are no Linux concerns that exceed 50% with the interviewed "business-technology professionals" while there are three concerns that exceed 50% of the same group with Windows.
It appears that "business-technology professionals" are more concerned with Windows than Linux, but the graphs are set up to give the opposite impression. Is this another case of spin-doctoring? Or is Linux just a casualty of aestheticism?
Re:Watch the Graphs (Score:2)
One more thing:
"No concerns":
Damn right (Score:2)
Damn right! Linux gives jobs back to people, where it's supposed to be. Linux doesn't outsoursce your job to someone in India who answers your problems only if he can find the answer on a list.
Borland/Kylix (Score:2)
Re:Borland/Kylix (Score:2)
Re:Borland/Kylix (Score:2)
Re:Borland/Kylix (Score:2)
Re:interesting (Score:2)
Cool. stop right there, you're having all that trouble getting your Windows machines to interoperate with the Linux machines. Obviously, you're doing it all wrong. You just have to start with the linux machines so they interoperate with the Windows boxes, silly.
If your manager actually reads the article, he might just ask this same question... what answer are you going to give him?
Re:interesting (Score:2)
And, of course, it's a completely different issue getting Windows to use Linux/Unix native protocols and getting Linux to use Windows native protocols.
Re:Open Source is not always good. (Score:2)
There aren't even programs such as AutoCad, Rational Rose or stuff like this.
You mean like Rational Rose Developer for Unix [ibm.com]?
Or what about Pro/E [ptc.com], instead of AutoCad. Or maybe LinuxCAD [linuxcad.com].
Re:Open Source is not always good. (Score:2)
You do have a lot of valid points, and I am not making any corrections, but I found some of it really funny.
When I quote you, I have added some stuff in square brackets to clarify the context.
You said:
Consider this:
You got an important job to do for un
Re:Lack of Moderators this sunday? (Score:2)
Also, the sky is blue, and the Earth is round. Just some other obvious things you might've also missed.