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Linux Business

Lufthansa Systems Chooses Linux 135

Posted by CmdrTaco from the flying-the-penguin-skies dept.
Nice2Cats writes "Remember all of the jokes about operating systems as airlines? Well, Heise is reporting that Linux is just going to take over the computer systems of Germany's airline Lufthansa instead. SuSE and Lufthansa Systems have a joint press release (in German, it should appear here when it comes out in English) out where Karlheinz Natt from Lufthansa Systems gushes (my translation): 'We are registering a steadily increasing demand for Linux-based solutions from our customers.' "
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Lufthansa Systems Chooses Linux More

Lufthansa Systems Chooses Linux

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  • I wonder... (Score:5, Funny)

    by Black Parrot ( 19622 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:09AM (#6659504)

    ...whether Bill Gates will fly Lufthansa when he makes his emergency trip over with his checkbook.

  • The downside? (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:10AM (#6659508)
    Tickets will be upwards of $1000 because SCO's licensing fees will be built in to the price.

  • Lufthansa will not replace their systems (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:17AM (#6659533)
    In the German press release it says that they will offer Linux as Operating System for their customers because "Customers are asking for linux based solutions"
    Aren't they using Netware? http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2002/01/p r02009.html
    • How are they going to offer this? Are there any details?

    • The point is, they are going to work with SuSe, a fellow German company. The previous report of a German Stadt going with Linux and this report share the common demominator that both are working with SuSe. Sort of like "Made in the USA" for we Americans (i.e. United Statesers).

    • Re:Lufthansa will not replace their systems (Score:4, Informative)

      by netsharc ( 195805 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @12:09PM (#6660035)
      Well, the press release states Lufthansa Systems will start offering Linux to its customers. For some reason, Lufthansa Systems is not Lufthansa the airline, but a 100% subsdiary of the company that focuses on IT for airlines. I assume their major customer is Lufthansa itself, and the list of press releases on their website [lhsystems.de] confirms that they do work for other airlines and even a bank!

      I know the "department" that does maintenance on their planes is also its own separate subsdiary. Maybe it's a way for the company to keep costs down, if their own subsdiary demands too high a price, they can always threaten to go elsewhere.
    • Well, they could be using the Edirectory" [novell.com]. They still need to manage all those Linux machines.
    • In the German press release it says that they will offer Linux as Operating System for their customers...

      Fly to Munich and get YOUR free Linux CD!

      Yeah, yeah, not quite the same Luthansa, BUT I once got an unadvertised copy of Turbolinux with a network card I bought....

  • Terrorists (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Does this mean that everyone who knows Linux is a terrorist now? ;)

  • This has to be fairly expensive in the short term (Score:3, Interesting)

    by dnaboy ( 569188 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:17AM (#6659535)
    I realize and agree that linux, in the long run, can save tremendous amounts of money for a corporation, but there has to be a huge upfront fee to overhaul and implement an entirely new OS and set of apps. I'm neither a guru in the computer industry, nor the airlines (though I keep high level tabs on both), but the timing seems odd, given that the airlines are all hemmoraging money right now...

    • Re:This has to be fairly expensive in the short te (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      An upfront fee yes, but keep in mind that quite a bit of the airline industry is using stuff so old that it isn't much supported by anything anymore. In theory, making those apps in Linux will allow them to easily reintegrate and recompile them on whatever we will be using in the future.

      And all the airlines aren't hemmoraging money, mainly just the American ones. The euorpean airline industry has for the most part stablized.
    • Lufthansa systems is a 100% lufthansa owned IT & systems implementation company - while Lufthansa certainly is one of its biggest clients they can be compared more easily to IBM global services which is IBM's services arm.

      So this deal really doesn't have a lot to do with Lufthansa itself. They're only now starting to offer linux solutions which previously they didnt.

    • Actually since systems generally must be maintained and this costs real money every year. While there may be a higher cost the first year or two the savings should be forthcoming almost right away. As for losing money, so are the baby bells, just ask them, they got the funky accounting to go along with it. So is the cable company, just ask them. They all can justify why rates need to go up.....

    • Re:This has to be fairly expensive in the short te (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Daniel Phillips ( 238627 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @11:18AM (#6659810)
      the timing seems odd, given that the airlines are all hemmoraging money right now...

      On the contrary, these are exactly the economic conditions under which an up-front investment to reduce long-term operating costs make more sense than ever. It's only during the fat times that gross inefficiencies from, say, excessive downtime or wasteful license audits, can go unnoticed and uncorrected.
    • Oh my god!

      You need money for investments!

      Better stop making any investments, I'm sure that will solve all our problems!

    • As I wrote in another post, I don't work there but drink (and ski) with some of them.

      The problem is that a small aitline either has to buy an expensive system, or buy into an outsourced solution which being based on dinosaur technology (i.e., SABRE) isn't exactly cheap. So I have five planes and want to start an airline, where do I go for the IT?

      What can those mini-airlines buy? Well LH Systems hope to find a solution which can cut costs. And it isn't just airlines, LH Systems is into providing and faci

    • I realize and agree that linux, in the long run, can save tremendous amounts of money for a corporation, but there has to be a huge upfront fee to overhaul and implement an entirely new OS and set of apps.

      If they were to "stick" with Microsoft they'd be more or less forced to "upgrade" every few years. Where in practice the difference between an "upgrade" and "overhaul & install an entirely new system" isn't really that great.

      but the timing seems odd, given that the airlines are all hemmoraging mon

  • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • It's Lufthansa Systems (Score:5, Informative)

    by tgreiner ( 107912 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:19AM (#6659540) Homepage
    This is an agreement between Suse and Lufthansa Systems, which is the IT consulting branch of Lufthansa. This does not mean that Lufthansa itself will switch to Linux. It means that Lufthansa Systems sees a higher demand of Linux by its customers...

  • clarification (Score:5, Informative)

    by SilverSun ( 114725 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:21AM (#6659548) Homepage
    "Lufthansa Systems" is a spin-off company from "Lufthansa" the airline. They provide IT to many companies, airlines (e.g. Lufthansa") and others. This does _not_ mean, that Lufthansa (the airline) will switch to linux. "Lufthansa systems" has provided Linux support for quite a while to customers who request this. This means that the number of customers is increasing beyond the limit where "LH Systemes" can satisfy the demand on their own, and/or that they are not (yet?) willing to enlarge their linux department.

    Cheers


    • > "Lufthansa Systems" is a spin-off company from "Lufthansa" the airline. They provide IT to many companies, airlines (e.g. Lufthansa") and others. This does _not_ mean, that Lufthansa (the airline) will switch to linux.

      Well, at least for once most of us had an excuse not to lesen the article.

    • maybe they should rename to Linuxhansa systems

  • Will planes without windows... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Albanach ( 527650 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:24AM (#6659563) Homepage
    reduce the glare when trying to watch an in-flight movie?

  • Good idea (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Pharmboy ( 216950 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:25AM (#6659567) Journal
    Actually, using open source software is probably a good idea for ANY govt., since it not only gives them the opportunity to inspect the code, but also make changes. As long as the govt. doesn't get into the distribution business, it doesn't even have to put their changes back into the pool, although it would be a good idea for most code.

    Another benefit is you don't have to worry about the vendor of the OS 'buying off' govt. officials to use their operating system. Since their is no one company that produces linux, it means they always have choices.

    The other benefits are price. its not that linux is free, price wise, because its really not considering you usually need support as you would with any OS. But you can choose from more companies for support, different flavors of Linux for different projects (and still have it being compatable) Also, since it is an open standard it is cheaper to maintain. Since governments pay for all this software with their citizens taxes, a system that has the potential to save millions means more money in taxpayers pockets, or at least being spent on other projects.

    Microsoft or no Microsoft, do YOU feel comfortable with your government having only ONE vendor and source for operating systems for critical services?
    • What does the IT spin-off of an airline (even if it has been a state-run one until some years ago but no longer is) to do with IT in government ? Wrong thread ?
      • I had thought they were still govt. owned, which is a common practice in the EU. If they are no longer govt. owned, my mistake, although the comment is still valid, if not as applicable.
        • I had thought they were still govt. owned, which is a common practice in the EU.

          European competition rules forbid member states financially supporting loss-making airlines. So most of them have been privatized, with varying amounts of government share ownership.

    • Re:Good idea (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "As long as the govt. doesn't get into the distribution business, it doesn't even have to put their changes back into the pool, although it would be a good idea for most code."

      Why would that be a good idea for most code? The government is not in the business of supplying people with free code.
      • Why would that be a good idea for most code? The government is not in the business of supplying people with free code.

        if the govt. creates an improvement to SENDMAIL (for example) that they need, then yes, it would be a good idea to release the code, even tho the GPL doesn't require it. If the CIA makes changes for internal reasons, and those changes may prove methods then it would not be a good idea. So, for most code, it IS a good idea, only because there is no reason to not. If they create some netw

    • Re:Good idea (Score:3, Interesting)

      by christophersaul ( 127003 )
      I like and use Linux, but these kinds of argumnents miss the point about what most IT departments are interested in from their technolody.

      Linux' development model creates some good products, but few people want to actively change those products - they want someone else to do it for them.

      Few Government departments are interested in looking at the code. They want systems that work. What use is say, a housing benefit system that's crap but has source code, when compared to a working closed source applicati
      • Actually its kinda funny but the FAA equivalent in germany (the DFS) is privatized and has looked into the possability of running linux in there ATC systems (small parts at first).

      • Re:Good idea (Score:3, Interesting)

        by Pharmboy ( 216950 )
        Linux' development model creates some good products, but few people want to actively change those products - they want someone else to do it for them.

        This is simply NOT true for larger institutions. Maybe you dont change it for your home use, but a larger corporation or entity generally WILL to some extent.

        As you mention, support needs to be bought, so what's to stop those organisations buying off govt officials? Having the blueprints to the trucks your local council buys doesn't stop people being bou
        • I'm not talking about home use.

          The point is that most organisations want to concentrate on running their business, not their IT.

          Very few of the larger organisations I work with could care less about changing the source. The companies that supply their IT services might do... The point is that the OSS development model encourages fast changes and improvements, but the vast majority of companies are not interested in being developers themselves - they want finished products from someone else. They don't
      • With so many hi tech jobs being shipped to cheap labour regions, you miss one important point: when you buy closed source products, chances are that they were coded in places like India. When you adopt an open source alternative, you do need to hire ad hoc support (and probably some coders to tailor your applications), which will be, most likely, physically located in the vecinity of your offices.

        That alone, makes Linux such a good alternative. It creates tech jobs in your local market. Chances are that if
        • Why not just hire those cheaper coders for your OSS app from India as well?
        • With so many hi tech jobs being shipped to cheap labour regions, you miss one important point: when you buy closed source products, chances are that they were coded in places like India.

          The general case is that you don't have any idea who might have coded a piece of proprietary software or even what the software you have obtained actually does.

          When you adopt an open source alternative, you do need to hire ad hoc support (and probably some coders to tailor your applications), which will be, most likely,
    • Actually, no, I would rather have my governement make the most effective use of MY tax dollars. If Linux has the lower TCO and increased employee productivity, then choose Linux. Same goes for Windows. I want the best government for my money. Spending less on IT allows governement to spend more providing value to us citizens.

      • Re:Good idea (Score:2, Interesting)

        by Spellbinder ( 615834 )
        maybe your company could use the same opensource project your government issued money on
        if the government spends 300 bucks on opensource it is not the same as if it spends it on Ms
        everybody will be able to use the solution
      • Actually, no, I would rather have my governement make the most effective use of MY tax dollars. If Linux has the lower TCO and increased employee productivity, then choose Linux. Same goes for Windows. I want the best government for my money. Spending less on IT allows governement to spend more providing value to us citizens.

        I agree, and perhaps I didn't make myself very clear on that point. I use Windows and Linux, myself. For many purposes, Linux IS the tco leader. web servers, dns servers, unix like
      • While that argument is suitable for a corporation I think Governments have a higher purpose. They should not only consider TCO they should also consider their security, the job creation potential for their citizens, boosting the economy of their own country and more.

        For example a government should choose products from corporations based in their own country even if the TCO is a bit higher. If the award of a contract employs your won citizens then it should be preferred.

        It makes no sense to send your coll
        • While that argument is suitable for a corporation I think Governments have a higher purpose. They should not only consider TCO they should also consider their security, the job creation potential for their citizens, boosting the economy of their own country and more.

          Commercial entities also have security considerations e.g. avoiding buying proprietary software from a direct competitor might well be a good idea.
          To a government job creation and boosting they own economy tends very much to affect their TCO.
    • Actually, using open source software is probably a good idea for ANY govt., since it not only gives them the opportunity to inspect the code, but also make changes.

      In rebuttal of letter from Microsoft Peru [gnu.org.pe] by Peruan Congressman Dr. Edgar Villanueva contends that :

      It is also necessary to make it clear that the aim of the Bill we are discussing is not directly related to the amount of direct savings that can by made by using free software in state institutions. That is in any case a marginal aggrega

    • >Microsoft or no Microsoft, do YOU feel comfortable with your government having only ONE vendor and source for operating systems for critical services?

      Ironically, one of the major grievances that gave birth to the US was a protest against a British government monopoly [infinisource.com]. Microsoft is using similar tactics [infinisource.com], and can expect similar results.

      Epomymous Mallard

  • I built their webfarm personally! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Mister Transistor ( 259842 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:27AM (#6659573) Journal
    I consult to company in the Chicago area who hosts their US website. I was contracted to build their webfarm!

    I am normally a Redhat fan, but they insisted I use SuSE 7 (the latest at the time) running on a cluster of 10 Compaq DL380's, using a cool content-based traffic load-balancing switch to make the individual servers into a _non-beowulf_ cluster!

    I got the whole thing up and running, then web-hardened the servers, and then let the boys from Munich do their customization and configuration.

    It was a fun project, one I'm proud of...

  • Error (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:28AM (#6659583)
    landing-gear.so not found.
    Did you forget to run ldconfig?

  • Nice... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Hydro-X ( 549998 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:40AM (#6659627)
    Maybe now someone will be able to change the scrolling text on the gate screens at Munich when a flight is boarding.

    "Your flight is ready. Thank you, and Goodbye."

    "Goodbye" is not a good word to use in conjunction with boarding an aircraft.
    • Yes.. "Farewell" is much more appropriate.
    • Funny, I reckon the German word in place of "Goodbye" would be "Auf wiedersehen", which translates to "Until we see each other again", which is more reassuring. :) ... hmm Germans also say "Have a nice flight/trip", that would also fit.

      I'm reminded of a message that came up in Singapore Airport as a flight that was suppposed to be arriving there crashed: "Delayed - Please Contact Service Desk" ..

    • "Your flight is ready. Thank you, and Goodbye."

      "Goodbye" is not a good word to use in conjunction with boarding an aircraft.

      Well, if Microsoft can get users to shutdown by going to the start menu, it's only fair that Linux gets a similar chance!

  • i think this is more a case of domestic politics, not wanting to send dollars, er, deutshmarks, overseas. it is a good thing in that it will show the enterprise capabilities of linux, etc. however, like the munich deal, their going with suse, which sounds more like keeping it home. but hey, more power to them.

    plus, if i'm not mistaken, most major industries in europe are government subsidized, so, it was probably good politics to go local. (yes, i realize there are tons of subsidies in the US. i don
    • 1) The marks are no more, the current currency of most of the EU is called "Euro" (and the smallest coins "Eurocents"). 2) Quite some (in my opinion too many, and the wrong ones, especially the railroads and the landline ttelephone system in my country are nowdays really bad managed) previously state owned companies have been privatized, to a small gain fo the gov. and a big gain to some specific investors who whee lucky to buy at the right time.
    • No, major industries in Europe in general are not subsidised. Farming is, and so is infrastructure (intended to even out living standards across the EU, this can be regarded as a progressive tax on better off areas.). The myth that Airbus Industrie was subsidised is frequently put about, but actually AI received start up loans which were paid back. It's been a good investment for the governments that contributed to it.
    • Um... the germans use the Euro curency, besides its Deutschemark

  • Penguins... (Score:3, Funny)

    by SushiFugu ( 593444 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @10:44AM (#6659641)
    So I guess this should shut up, once and for all, the people who still claim penguins can't fly :)
  • Why would an airline's customers know or care what operating system they used to run the business, much less request that they change it? Other than the 1 in 100,000 nosy geek, perhaps?

    I'm just having a hard time imagining customers saying, "Boy, since Lufthansa switched over to running Linux, flying this airline sure is so much better! I'm so glad they listened to our request to switch over." Seems kind of absurd.
    • Never mind, should have read other comments here a little deeper. It's the IT branch of Lufthansa selling to other airlines.
    • Actually it's "Lufthansa Systems", which doesn't have much in common with an airline except the name and the owner.

      It's more or less an IT-services company.

  • So lately there's been a couple stories about SuSE and German institutions hooking up, and also the perennial outsourcing development to 2nd-world countries discussion. On a gut instinct level, I'm for the former (down with The Man!) and against the latter (wait! I want that job!). However, my feelings about both are a bit more complicated.

    You see, it's hard not to see that SuSE stuff as largely influenced by nationalism. This is not to day it's a bad choice, presumably the clients like the fact that the S

    • Re:Nationalism, good and bad? (Score:5, Informative)

      by sien ( 35268 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @11:07AM (#6659744) Homepage
      Your terms are wrong. The first world was the West, the second world the communist world and the third world the non-aligned developing countries. The second world does not really exist anymore.
      • Mea culpa for using terms with 2 definitions. The definitions I was using (which, AFAIK, are fairly widespread) are:
        1st world: industrialized
        3rd world: not so industrialized, aka "developing" (I hate that term, and the silly optimism contained therein, do you really think they're always becoming more industrialized?)
        2nd world: transitional, typically either moving up (Brazil, India) or down (some former USSR aligned countries and republics).

    • Re:Nationalism, good and bad? (Score:1)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Some more OT comments...

      You see, it's hard not to see that SuSE stuff as largely influenced by nationalism.

      Maybe because Suse is better than, lets say, Redhat? The term of nationalism is for me personally more connected to US, where government and industry tries to block as much as they can from "the old europe". No french cheeze, no german Suse and no swedish girls for you US boys. Damn :)
    • > it's hard not to see that SuSE stuff as largely influenced by nationalism.

      Why should it be a nationalistic decision? Because they are from the same country? I hope, the management doesn't drive Mercedes, or BMW.

      IBM works close with both RedHat and SuSE. For what reasons chose IBM both? IBM achieved with SuSE the Common Criteria [www.suse.de].

      No, I don't want to say that SuSE is superior to RedHat. The point is some people might consider it that way, on purely technical reasons. It is beyond my judgement to say, w
    • You see, it's hard not to see that SuSE stuff as largely influenced by nationalism.

      Lufthansa is a German company that have chosen to make a deal with a local German company named SuSE Gmbh. For similar reasons that US companies make similar deals. I'm pretty sure that SuSE can offer excellent Linux solutions.

      This is not to day it's a bad choice, presumably the clients like the fact that the SuSE folks speak fluent German, which you probably can't say for Mandrake, RedHat, or Redflag.

      Dead on.

      Bu

  • I don't know what would be the worse, the autopilot BSODing (duuh) or saying "Segmentation fault" (due to faulty closed source 3rd party drivers, ofcourse).
  • It's a good thing.

    If Luftansa Systems sees demand for Linux, they'll be pushing their solutions to Luftansa Airlines and other customers.

    It only means more and more commerial organisations will bestow faith in Linux.

    Which only bodes good in these SCO lawsuit times.

  • Lufthansa Systems != Lufthansa Airlines (Score:5, Informative)

    by mkweise ( 629582 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @12:04PM (#6660020)
    Lufthansa Systems GmbH, a subsidiary of Lufthansa Airlines AG, is an IT service provider focused on the airline industry (as opposed to an IT devision focused exclusively on the parent company's IT needs.)

    The press release announces that Lufthansa Systems will be offering Linux solutions due to customer demand. It does *not* state which of its customers are demanding Linux. In particular, one would expect that if the parent company were planning to deploy Linux in its airline operations, this fact should have been mentioned in the press release.

  • LH Systems - What they do (Score:4, Interesting)

    by anonymous cupboard ( 446159 ) on Sunday August 10, 2003 @01:33PM (#6660434)
    LH Systems is a daughter company of Lufthansa. I don't work there but some of my friends do. They do airline systems for Lufthansa and others, such as Yield Management, Cargo, Reservations and Ticketing and so on. They traditionally did a lot with Unisys in this area and they also have a lot of expertise with thin client systems and vertical applications.

    However these days they have signed up other customers like Deka Bank (a traditional German Bank).

    When you are looking at systems that have a relatively narrowly defined functionality, you don't want to have XP licenses everywhere. Much of their front end could easily be done by a minimalist PC with Linux, better than loading it with XP. For the backend, they work with big databases, but they still want ways of flexibly adding and removing backend capacity to suit their customer's changing needs. Windows licensing for servers, frankly, sucks. The moment you start to add capacity, you must also add lots of licenses and then follow th MS led upgrade dance.

    Frankly we are not talking about computers, we are talking about functional black boxes marked with labels like "Reservation System". This is very attractive to their customer base as they can buy a cheap solution.

  • This is the original poster.

    My apologies for not including enough background information to the point where the post in its current form is obviously misleading; I had thought that putting "Lufthansa Systems" in the headline was clear enough, and that it was obvious that the costumers involved would not be flight passengers (but wouldn't that be a truely awesome form of hard-core advocacy: Go to a travel agency and demand an airline that uses Linux!). Obviously, I was wrong, and you are correct to complai

  • ... or did anybody else first read the subject as "Luftwaffe Systems Chooses Linux" and do a double-take?
  • Lufthansa has been using SuSE GNU/Linux for a long time now. Increasingly over the last year. Although all desktops run NT4 (damn it to hell!) but we are promised XP some time next year. I do now see SuSE desktop in the future 4-5 years, because of extreme dependency on MS Office and the future rollout of XP desktops. GNU/Linux is taking the role of servers all over the corporate infrastructure. (Don't worry, planes are not being ported to GNU/Linux :) )

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