Indian Government Moves to Let Linux In 330
Webi writes "The government of India has started taking precise, wide-reaching steps to usher in a Linux wave in India." India sure seems to be a highly contested arena lately. Interestingly, India's plan calls for government-sponsored support and call centers. Looks like they've really thought this through.
Sweet! (Score:5, Funny)
Maybe they will outsource linux support to the us!
I better start learning my Hindi!
English in India (Score:5, Funny)
Re:English in India (Score:5, Interesting)
I am in the process of opening a satellite office in India for my company to hire developers and back office personnel, and language doesn't really seem to be a barrier at all.
In fact, my next trip over, I am scheduled to meet with training centers that train call center agents to speak with a midwestern american accent, and even teaches them current events!! So, this is not even socio-economic class-based, as developers earn significantly more than they do.
You have to remember that the country was a UK colony until 1948, English is not nearly the problem I worried that it might be.
Re:English in India (Score:5, Insightful)
Without boring you with the details, let me just say that many of the programming books you're buying these days are written and edited there, at least in part. (And some of the "polishing up" work gets outsourced to me.)
Their enthusiasm for doing useful, meaningful work is genuine, as is their desire not to be lisence-taxed to death while trying to do it. They simply can't afford it. So Linux and other Open Source technologies are a natural for them.
I also wonder if it'd have done Microsoft much good to make a pitch in any case. According to Microsoft's own "Attitudes Towards Shared Source and Open Source Research Study", as quoted in the Halloween Documents [opensource.org],
In other words, the very things that MS keep trying to tell people are "evil" about OSS are in fact what people actually like about it! Especially those people concerned with the bottom line because they can't afford not to be.
Re:Ah, yes (Score:4, Interesting)
This is a very big deal. In order to use a remote team - in this case off shore developers - the business users have to actually document what they want and get it right the first time out. Solid requirements... I've seen this type of development succeed only a handful of times, most projects produce something between what they asked for (not to be confused with what they wanted) to catastrophic failure. Come to think of it, it has been a while for requirements too. Anyhow, the short of it is most business users will rather pay US rates so they don't have to do the groundwork required to move stuff over seas. Not to say they don't give it a try once or twice first...
One of my favorites was working with a business user who thought they needed complete creative latitude / absolute control. We went round and round about address and phone number validation. What is valid? (555) 555-1234, SOMENUMBER (alpha characters that map to digits), or extensions? A few months later the call came in on how to handle the UK customer's phone number.
Re:Ah, yes (Score:3, Insightful)
Most projects with any real scope miss tons of requirements. This means that the team and customer have to negotiate date or feature slips. Much harder to do if the two cannot meet face to face.
I don't buy it. (Score:2)
Excuse you, but Clinical Depression is not just 'the blues', or feeling a little sad because your boss yelled at you, etc etc.
Yes, I'm aware of the differences.
It's a real disease, and sometimes pills are one of the only, if not the only, treatments with any reasonable degree of effectiveness.
Sure. The common cold is a real disease. Allergies (of the severity that make your nose run constantly for a season, not the kind that cuts off your airways) are as well. And neither are particularly pleasant, but people can also cope with each without throwing down Prozac or Claratin. And if they can't, then they may well have to be...depressed.
The point of my original point is not to attack people who suffer from clinical depression in particular. It's that we're giving ourselves all sorts of perks and rewards that the competition is doing without, and that aren't really all that necessary.
Re:English in India (Score:2)
Don't forget that most TV anchors are Canadian. They actually speak English.
Re:English in India (Score:2)
Re:English in India (Score:2)
Re:English in India (Score:2)
Re:Sweet! (Score:4, Funny)
Too late, man. Hindi is obsolete!
Hindi++ is where it's at nowadays.
Re:Sweet! (Score:5, Funny)
India can build their own OS.......... (Score:3, Interesting)
text of the article (Score:2, Informative)
PRASENJIT BHATTACHARYA
TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 25, 2002 12:54:49 PM ]
NEW DELHI: The government of India has started taking precise, wide-reaching steps to usher in a Linux wave in India.
And that cannot be good news for proprietary software vendors like Microsoft. Yesterday, the IT ministry had a meeting of around 70 people, from companies like HP, IBM, Sun and TCS, government agencies like BARC and CDAC, state governments like Kerala, West Bengal and MP to evolve a level playing field for Linux vis-a-vis proprietary software (read Microsoft).
All the IITs too were represented at the meeting that went on for 4 hours.
There was consensus in the meeting that Linux was a secure, robust and cost-effective system.
As far as concrete pro-Linux acts go, government tenders may soon stop specifying Microsoft or any other vendor's name while floating software tenders, thus throwing open the way for Linux vendors to grab lucrative government contracts hitherto barred from them.
The government is also setting up special interest groups with officials of industry and academia to find out how Linux can be deployed in e-governance, defence, education and so on.
Since support to Linux is till a big issue, the government is also thinking in terms of setting up support and resource services, and call centres for Linux users. It is also looking at setting up pilot sites, where Linux applications can be "touched and felt". A heartening fact for Linux-philes would be the enthusiasm for Linux shown by extremely security-sensitive agencies like Bhabha Atomic Research Centre and the National Information Centre (NIC).
Another aspect that came out in the meeting was the work on Indianisation of Linux that's happening now.
C-DAC's agency NCST and Red Hat have, for instance, developed a Hindi version of Linux, called Indix. IIT Mumbai too is doing pioneering research in Linux.
Yesterday's meeting of industry, academia and government representatives was chaired by IT secretary R R Shah. According to industry sources, companies like Sun and TCS were all enthusiasm for Linux, with the TCS representative claiming that the company was implementing the country's largest Linux project in Chennai. The government, however, was at pains to bring out the fact that it was not against Microsoft or proprietary software and was only looking to leverage the strengths of open source software.
However, one official present at the meeting wisecracked, "Microsoft would have had a heart attack if it was present at the meeting. The interest in Linux at this meeting was palpable."
One influential official told ET that many people were "violently against" computer textbooks in schools and colleges teaching Microsoft Word or Excel, instead of generic applications or technologies, like word processors. Industry sources also said that on the sidelines of the meeting, there were two views among those present about Microsoft's reported move of sharing source code with the government. While some thought it was just "posturing" by MS, others felt that it was a "genuine" attempt by the Redmond giant to reach out.
However, sources said that it was the representative from Madhya Pradesh, who made a forceful case for Linux. He said that since MP had a paucity of resources, Linux seemed the best solution for the state. He, however, said that there was need to train people in Linux technologies. A member of the Linux user group sprang up to say that the MP government can take help of the extremely active Linux User group in Indore.
So Billy Boy couldn't bully the Indians... (Score:5, Insightful)
In developing countries, Free/Open software makes tremendous sense. When your average worker doesn't make enough money in the average month to buy a license to Microsoft's latest OS, you know there's a disconnect.
Maybe my home state (CA, the new capital of hideous debt) might take a lesson from India.
Re:So Billy Boy couldn't bully the Indians... (Score:3, Insightful)
So the labor costs in India relative to license fees are MUCH lower than in the US. So open source is removing the bulk of operating costs.
Doug
Re:So Billy Boy couldn't bully the Indians... (Score:3, Interesting)
I think an unbiased TCO analysis is kind of hard now. Each side has an agenda to push. Depending on what you investigate you can come up with different numbers. The only survey I can think of that I consider did a decent job on TCO is an survey that shows apache on linux is cheaper than the main alternatives. [slashdot.org] That obviously doesn't show "user" apps, just servers.
As far as the bias goes, I think the way TCO is asked is biased as well. I rarely see people include the cost of Microsoft's essentially forced upgrades or the time and effort tracking obtaining and tracking licenses. There are also some intagibles, such as not being locked in, being able to look "under the hood" - the US government's post-9/11 intelligence gathering, MSes history of tracking have people a bit wary now. Those are real, though hard to put dollar number on, concerns.
There are companies that offer support for OpenSource apps, they're not as big name as Linux itself, they tend to be smaller shops.
The other thing is that the switchover cost, at least as it currently looks, is a one time cost, vs. continuous costs (MS forced upgrades) albeit that are lower. The problem is you have to at some point bite the bullet. Things like Crossover are making this easier and a gradual conversion.
I'm not saying everything should be opensource, but things like WordProcessing make sense. It's a very mature app, fairly stable code base once you get to "modern" wordprocessing feature levels, and it's dangerous to have your important data locked in a proprietary format. If the Justice Department really wanted to make a dent in the MS Monopoly they would have forced MS to open up completely all past, present, and future Office formats. This would guarantee compatibility with competing apps, and MS would have to compete on features, not on lock-in. it would also ensure people could read and write their old Office files and not have to upgrade. It would be pretty ironic if outside apps had better support for MS's old formats than Word does.
Re:So Billy Boy couldn't bully the Indians... (Score:2)
A few years ago I had several corrupted Word '97 docs. When I opened them in Word on Win95, Word would immediately freeze or crash with an "illegal instruction" dump, or even corrupt the OS leading to the inevitable BSOD. But in the pre-Sun StarOffice the .doc's would open perfectly,
with helpful red error messages showing exactly where the corruption was, and the rest
of the content was easily salvaged.
One thing that really PO'ed me at the time was that when Word '97 docs were opened with older Word versions (I forget which, but certainly the previous Mac version), there wasn't even an error message saying you had to upgrade or something. Either you'd see garbage on the screen or Word would freeze/crash. The shoddiness of such a design was just appalling. It was a painful transition until everyone was up to '97.
One thing I never understood is why exploits to take advantage of such behavior never caught on with the script kiddies. I guess macro viruses were just too easy, so why bother.
Re:So Billy Boy couldn't bully the Indians... (Score:2)
India hardly suffers from a shortage of labor. The labor charge for administration and customization will be trivial compared to any licensing. Finding necessary applications won't be much of a problem unless they have a very niche requirement - and even then, a Linux infrastructure will likely work well for most of the environment.
And finally - training and support. You forget that India is growing their IT industry (and fighting brain-drain to some extent). Training is the entire point of the operation. Support exists in abundance with proper training (those stumped by "RTFM" forget that one either has to do some basic footwork oneself or pay for the expertise).
Open Source solutions won't always be the answer. But it will be more and more often. It all depends on the specifics of one's needs - what is being sought. India is wise to not allow a single corporate interest to dictate their search.
Gubmint sponsored call centers? (Score:4, Funny)
Oh joy! Another place to be put on eternity hold.
Any word if they plan on suporting the entire world or just the users in the Indian government?
Re:Gubmint sponsored call centers? (Score:3, Funny)
Call Center business in India (Score:2)
Other countries have been doing call center outsourcing for a long time - the Caribbean has a lot of it, and while C&W was a monopoly in much of the area, it was much more competent than VSNL, and the area has some level of integration with the US telecom networks.
Mono making it easier to pick Linux? (Score:2)
Since
Three steps to profit (Score:4, Funny)
1) Talk up linux.
2) When Bill and Melinda offer money, make nice.
3) Adopt Linux, and watch your people PROFIT.
4) Watch their tax recipts rise.
Whoops, that was 4 steps. Well, government projects usually go over budget.
Crap joke warning (Score:3, Funny)
No windows, no gates, apache inside.
India and Linux (Score:2, Insightful)
It has been voiced that India is foolish for going with open source which "at most will be half done" as opposed to Microsoft.
Think about this: India is a nuclear power, and they can hit major cities. Do we REALLY want a microsoft product running this? Think about it... this would bring entirely new meaning to the term blue screen of death.
Personally I see linux right now being stuck in this trap. They don't have the marketshare because there isn't the development, and they don't have the development because there is no marketshare. One of these things has to be fixed for the other one to be fixed. India is a HUGE populous. If this becomes the OS of choice over in India, it WILL lead to more development of Linux in general of which the entire linux community will benefit.
Re:India and Linux (Score:2)
As far as studies that compare TCO's between Microsoft and Linux, the only one's I've seen that place Microsoft on top are either Microsoft sponsored studies or by the occasional company that bends their knee and kisses the ring of the Gates. Are there others out there? Perhaps. I admit that the studies I'm talking about are only the ones I've seen. What do I know though?
In the computer labs I've visited, one trained unix admin can take on 200 systems, whereas MCSE's will handle about 20 - at most.
Now lets use this information to do a little hypothetical planning. Lets say, for the sake of arguement, that we're going to implement 1000 systems and that the standard wage for the Windows admin is 1 Economic unit (just a fake term for a yearly salary for a windows admin). At the rate of 1 admin to every 20 systems, this means that there will need to be 50 admins. Each earning 1 economic unit, the total expenditure for admins is 50 economical units. Now, if they went with linux/unix, they would only need 5 admins. Now, lets even account for the fact that unix guys earn... lets say 4x the salary of an MCSE, realize if Unix admins aren't paid nearly that much it only strengthens my arguement. 5 employees earning 4 economical units each is still only 20 economical units - a savings of 30 economical units. If Unix admins aren't paid that much more than MCSE's, then you save even more in budget.
It's not just the support over time, you also have to think about how many people would need to be hired to run things.
But now that I've ranted about ALL of this, realize that I don't know much about the TCO market, and the examples I've used to construct my arguements are based on trends I have observed and therefore could be inaccurate.
Frankly I disagree about Microsoft being the logical choice. With all the problems that people have with Microsoft and the control it weilds, I think the logical choice is choosing something that is stable and doesn't force you to pay out the nose every time you wish to upgrade software. But like you say... personal beliefs don't have much place in buisness decisions.
Re:India and Linux (Score:2)
If all your servers go down at once you haven't done your job properly. Where's your UPS? Where's your backup generator? Where's your disaster recovery plan? So far the amount of unscheduled downtime on my servers in 2002 is 0 seconds. What's yours?
but.. (Score:2, Insightful)
Source citation (Score:2)
Does anyone else find it funny that Slashdot, a site with <sarcasm> model journalistic integrity</sarcasm> I might add, always sites itself?
Re:Source citation (Score:2)
India reads the writing on the wall... (Score:3, Insightful)
Same thing as anybody with any sort of intelligence has their eye on things such as alternative sources of energy..
Heh.. (Score:2)
Indian Government Moves to Let Linux In (Score:2)
Wow.. never thought I'd see the day where Linux replaces an entire governing body. That should make for an interesting deomcracy. Everybody can write their own laws!
Does this mean that Dell will support Linux? (Score:2)
Right on India, smart move. Here's to hoping the US government won't be the last to migrate over to common sense.
Re:Does this mean that Dell will support Linux? (Score:2)
Oh, silly foreigners are always doing crazy stuff like this. How about that flash-in-the-pan metric system! [snicker] It'll never last. And right now my outdoor thermometer says 25 degrees and damn is it cold out there... just like it's supposed to be. ;)
Best Thing The Gov Has Done in 2002 (Score:3, Insightful)
Considering the fact that US Gov/MS have a penchant for interfering, trying to strongarm anyone (including democracies), the less dependent we are on US tech, better for us.
The biggest gains from going F/OSS should happen in the Military, Edu and SMB areas, that's my guess.
BTW, stop trashing India folks. Yoga, decimal system, astronomy, Ayurveda (nature medicine), Meditation, Buddhism, Karate, Sanskrit etc originated in India. Do you westerners ever consider that? All that is FREE! No Patents, No Copyrights.
Re:Best Thing The Gov Has Done in 2002 (Score:2)
Re: Indian Government Moves to Let Linux In (Score:5, Insightful)
The really good thing (Score:2)
Remember: Options, not changes!
Wow... (Score:5, Interesting)
From what I can tell this article was origionally put up on slashdot in order to show that Linux and open software were starting to gain some "marketshare" in the global scheme of things with the Indian government maneuvering to deploy the OS.
So what do I find really as I scroll through the comments today? I see people claiming that this is bad because other countries might be using something other than Microsoft, which employs americans. I see racist comment after racist comment. In fact I've seen so much of it in this thread that I am sickened by this.
If this is the case, you might ask why I'm responding or why I even bothered to continue reading. Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment, or maybe rather than get sickened and let things bother me it gives me the fuel to give a constructive criticism. Either way I'm compelled to speak my mind. Mod me in any direction that seems appropriate.
First of all, I'm having a little trouble seeing how this is costing any american jobs. From everything that I'm gathering here, the Indian government is, by and large, an undeveloped market in computing. No one is losing their job because linux is being used. No market is shrinking over this. The only thing that can be said is that Microsoft is not EXPANDING it's influence into India further. Microsoft still has all the lucritive markets it had before.
Secondly, I've seen many comments about the level of filth or inferiority of the people living over there. Perhaps people have had it too easy for a while to really see one point. In a country like the US, with a relatively strong economy and relatively low unemployment, it is much easier for a person to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. It is much easier to use programs provided by either public or private institutions to train in a field and get a job. What if that was taken away? What if you were born into an environment that wasn't as cushioned? You'd be struggling just as much as anyone there, or anywhere else where life is hard.
Are jobs being lost in the US? Absolutely. Wal-Mart is killing off Mom-and-Pop shops. American companies are killing off other american companies all the time. American companies are even doing things like moving to other spots in the country where employment is low. I can remember the day that the factory in my hometown shut it's doors because the local union employees refused to work for less than $20.00 an hour. They went somewhere more viable for employment. In the case I gave, South Carolina... where people were more than willing to bottle beer for $8.00 an hour. Just because jobs are being lost in America doesn't mean they're being relocated overseas. It's ignorant and just plain fucking stupid to think so.
I do agree with one of the posters I saw here... Americans really do need to learn to tighten their belts if they want to stay competetive. You can't keep on earning a salary that allows you to buy/lease a new car every year, computer upgrades every 6 months, eating out every night, and living like a king to produce a product in a global economy where people with the same skill set are starving and willing to do the same job for much less. It's the reason that a Gibson Les Paul will cost $2000 while the Epiphone Les Paul is $600.
~shakes head~ Okay. I'm done ranting. I'll get off my soap box now. But it's like one poster said... people should be open about thier opinions.
Re:Wow... (Score:2)
We regret to inform you that your job has been terminated as we are opening an oversea's office.
Have a Happy Holidays,
(yes... its important to tighten our belts... YOU FIRST!)
Re:Wow... (Score:2)
You can in a world without globalization. We've been doing it for decades. And somehow the idealistic demonstrators fail to realize that by protesting the Globalization movement, they are fighting to do just what they are most concerned about.
Those people are throwing bricks through starbucks windows to keep people in third world countries poor, they just don't know it.
It's damned sad is what it is. I've protested other things, but I did my homework about it first. I wish these people would focus their energy on thinking about the problem rather than railing against the system just because it's the flavor of the month.
Re:Wow... (Score:2)
I think it's a common trend though. When people get angry, they get stupid. Everyone, including myself, does this. I've had to train myself to sit back, calm down, and examine all sides of the situation whenever I get pissed off.
Re:Wow... (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course it's much easier for those being protested against to claim that the protesters are against globalization and against improvements for impoverished countries: even half-smart people who don't bother to inform themselves buy that.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:this is big.. (Score:2, Informative)
No, that's not really so "definite". One of the major reasons why Linux has been chosen for this task is that it's easier to localize Linux into the scores of local Indian languages, rather than paying a proprietary vendor for this job. Considerable efforts have gone into this already. Consider IndiX [ernet.in], BharateeyaOO.o [ernet.in] and IndLinux [indlinux.org] (also here [tenet.res.in]), for example. There was even news that some high school students won a Hindi font design contest and rejected Microsoft's offer to buy the font, preferring to release it under GPL but I don't have a reference right now.
GoI is very keen on localization so that the reach of computers can be extended to the non-english speaking rural population of India too.
Pretty disappointing (Score:3, Insightful)
This post has been eye-opening for me, as an unemployed Indian-American programmer, because I've always seen the entire Linux/Free Software/late 90's geek culture as a new kind of social phenomenon unencumbered by the baggage of the past, including racism and nationalistic xenophobia. The idea of all these foreign governments throwing their weight behind Linux means that there will be a larger userbase, more developers, and more vitality to the entire Free Software movement. But instead of greeting this with open arms, I see lots of people denigrating India and Indians. Yeah, more curry jokes and discussion about filthy, stupid Indians. Don't forget that your favorite OS was initially developed overseas by foreigners and is currently picking up lots of steam in Asia.
Re:Pretty disappointing (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't even know what to really say that I haven't said in my previous post or you haven't said. However, I think I'm adding you to my friends list.
Not used to american rage (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Pretty disappointing (Score:2)
I think (I hope!) you're getting this impression because you're looking at it the wrong way. I am, as usual, reading at +3, and so far I've seen one off-colour joke and no racism at all. People who regularly contribute to Slashdot and thus have the karma to post at automatic +2 are not racists and are not posting hate-speach - and I honestly believe that they are more representative of the actual contributing Open Source community than all the Anonymous Cowards and trolls.
Hope this fructifies...... (Score:3, Interesting)
Shades of Mexico? (Score:3, Insightful)
If India is as important to the world of software as everyone says it is, Microsoft isn't just going to walk away. They'll throw a billion or two into PR, lobbying, software give-aways, and FUD before giving up. And then they'll throw in a billion more. Remember money IS the only thing that matters(carve that into your dorm room desk). The fact that MS is competing with something that can be downloaded for free doesn't change anything.
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,457
nitpick and free-association (Score:2)
Alright, I'd like you to imagine a Battlemech or a Golem or an Ent--something large. Now, imagine how it walks... Could anything that big ever be described as having precise steps?
Come one, guys "precise" and "wide-reaching steps" just don't go together.
(I think so Brain, but where will find rubber pants our size? NARF!)
Unix popularity in India (Score:2)
Of course, back then, while Microsoft was definitely one of the competitors, so was IBM's mainframe world, and to some extent other proprietary operating systems like VMS, since DEC machines were in the right price ranges.
Sensationalist Headlines (Score:3, Informative)
1. When asking for bids, the requirements wouldn't specify Microsoft - rather specify the true requirements.
2. Computer textbooks wouldn't teach Word or Excel - rather teach how to use word processors and spreadsheets.
Both are things they should be doing regardless of Linux. It's asinine to do otherwise.
"Precise, wide-reaching steps?" (Score:2)
As far as concrete pro-Linux acts go, government tenders may soon stop specifying Microsoft or any other vendor's name while floating software tenders
That's precise if you say "will soon" instead of "may soon". Otherwise it's just conjecture.
The government is also setting up special interest groups with officials of industry and academia to find out how Linux can be deployed in e-governance, defence, education and so on.
That's only wide-reaching if these groups actually get up and do something.
Don't get me wrong - I think we'll see a lot of good IT out of India, and indeed there is already a lot of good stuff coming out of there. They are WAY ahead of supposedly developed neighbours yet early enough on the curve to avoid this Microsoft hold on the market. Think about it. In the US, Microsoft has dominated since DOS days, and people can't accept Linux, they think it's something new. IIRC however, Linux is now 10+ years old.
I get paid less than an imported worker, who cares (Score:2)
The morals of the story:
1.When times are hard you have to go with the times. This goes for workers of every nation, race and creed.
2.An institution will go for the IT solution that provides the best price/performance solution.
3.IT workers of all nations are dumb in that we don't form Unions. The exploitation of IT workers of all nations, seems to be similar to the sweat shops of the third world.
Power to India for considering moving to Linux on a big scale. The independance gained for them is a major point given that MS (and other large US industries) are not above using the US government to strong arm nations into becoming franchises for those same industries. I only wish that some other governments, including those here in Europe *and* the US would have the same long term view, because MS is only going to get more and more mean and tricky the more they fear the Linux revolution.
Re:Ok, And I Should Caaaree......Why? (Score:3, Insightful)
Maybe you should, maybe you shouldn't, but the point is it provides a positive example of how to engage the government in promoting open source - whatever country you're in. That's of interest to a lot of us, I think - not just the Indian Slashdotters. ;-)
Re:Ok, And I Should Caaaree......Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Ok, And I Should Caaaree......Why? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Ok, And I Should Caaaree......Why? (Score:2)
Re:Ok, And I Should Caaaree......Why? (Score:2)
Because it means all the PoS's at 7-11 will soon be running Linux.
At least, I think that'll be the biggest effect it'll have on you. Your hotdogs will no longer be pre-made.
Re:Ok, And I Should Caaaree......Why? (Score:2)
Because software and hardware vendors will support Linux if they want to sell anything to the 1 billion people down there.
Which translates to more drivers and more software for Linux - for everybody.
Re:Ok, And I Should Caaaree......Why? (Score:2)
And what is causing you not to eat? Apparently you have a computer, if you are starving then maybe you can sell your computer and buy some food.
If you are that poor there are always food stamps and welfare. There is a safety net in this country for people who are starving I urge you to take advantage of them. There is no need for anybody to starve in this country.
Re:Ok, And I Should Caaaree......Why? (Score:2)
Re:fuck fuck fuck (Score:3, Insightful)
If it wasn't for cheap foreign labor, America would never have been able to become a service economy. Basically, Americans could not have been as rich without cheap foreign labor.
Re:fuck fuck fuck (Score:2)
Bill G. is no longer in charge of M$ (Score:2)
With that kind of money, you don't need to adopt the best OS around.
Porting (Score:3, Informative)
Yes. The windows API hasn't been ported to Linux, GDI hasn't been ported to Linux. That is a tremendous amount of work that would all have to happen first. This topic hasn't failed to come up, and Microsoft's position has always been that it would much too expensive and their isn't any reason (i.e. the major desktop demand for Linux is to escape the rather low licensing costs so why would these same people pay for Office et al).
Re:Porting (Score:3, Interesting)
In any case I'm not a microsoft employee and haven't seen the source. My point is only that the people who have looked at said it would cost a fortune and would never pay for itself. As for Wine that's way too far behind the times.
Finally as for India and Linux I think there is another major factor. 3rd world office workers tend to be more intellegent and better educated than their 1st world counterparts in similar positions. Which means ease of use is much less important, and ease of customization is more important.
Re:Porting (Score:3, Insightful)
While the time may be "wasted" from a time and materials billing perspective, it is hardly wasted. Trying to make things work exercises creative problem solving, and gains a deeper understanding of how things work. The employee who expends a reasonable amount of time making junk work, even if unsuccessful, will be much better prepared for a real crunch. A wise company will encourage a balanced amount of this.
Re:MS is poised to dominate the Linux market... (Score:2)
Re:You people are absolutely intriguing (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, you do, and yes, it does.
You may not have those details to hand, but they are available to you. You may not want those details, but they are available to folks who are able to use them. That's why your fancy-schmancy modern car is significantly better than Grandpa's Model T.
How about Microsoft (1950's Rolls Royce clone, with a trouble-prone Chevy engine) versus Linux (modern Subaru)?
Right. You aren't. We can get jobs through trade with India. We don't have to sell them software to trade. Your conclusion may be obvious, but it is quite possibly wrong.
Re:You people are absolutely intriguing (Score:5, Insightful)
Besides, not every country in the world can pay ridiculous license fees for shotty software just to make a few people in some other country richer. Argh, ya know, instead of bitching about other countries, people should go there and check it out first hand. You'll see things in a completely different light and probably realize the whole high-priced, disposable 'american way' can't fly everywhere. jeeze, this is so obvious!
As far as complaing about jobs, sorry man (really!), but remember, those of you lower on the ladder were sacraficed for those higher up. How many bosses took pay cuts or forfeited their vacation so you could stay on board? Absolutely none! So before you go complaing about those bad immigrants or bad people in other countries taking your jobs just remember, someone had to make that decision here at home. And it was your ex-boss/superstar management team.
We won't have to worry about a terrorist attack or the like ruining our economy because we're doing it to ourselves. Give the middle guy a decent wage and get some creative management not selling their souls for the all mighty dollar and we'll go far. Of course, this is completely unrealistic today, but hey, some of us still have to keep thinking ahead..
Re:You people are absolutely intriguing (Score:5, Interesting)
Thrue. Idia is probably the only fully-functioning democratic country between Australia and Israel and it owes it's ability to function to the existence of a fairly effective public education system and the highly entrepreneurial spirit of it's people.
Unfortunately, this is true for two reasons.
India has GREAT potential to become an economic powerhouse rivalling, maybe even exceeding, the US, the EU and Japan if they stay on their current path.
Sacrificing Level (Score:2)
Actually, in Japan, it isn't unusual for the higher ups to take a pay cut/lose their bonuses for the lower people to not lose theirs in these current hard times. In good times, upper management gets a good piece of the pie, but they're willing to take less to keep everyone fed in harder times.
Unheard of in North America, I'm sure.
Re:You people are absolutely intriguing (Score:2)
No, but didja ever think that *maybe* chemists out there might want to put their own ideas and improvements into practice?
And unlike the auto world, in the computer world it's *very* easy to propogate one person's improvements around to everyone.
Linux isn't necessary inherently better just because the source code is widely available.
It's certainly an edge, though it doesn't make it better-regardless-of-other-factors.
The fact that it's also free-as-in-beer is a pretty big incentive, though.
India is no different, and I strongly advise them to buy an already working package for a fair price rather than tinkering with projects that are 20% complete and may never be more than halfway finished.
There are plenty of commercial programs that I don't consider particularly finished, and there are plenty of open-source programs that are finished.
Most stuff that you get when you download a Red Hat ISO is pretty solid stuff. Sure, you can get at CVS to a bunch of projects if you'd like to as well.
Oh, and all you complaining about not having a job -- I think Microsoft and other American companies getting more business means that there'll be more jobs here on the homefront. Just a thought...I'm not economic genius, but it seems to make sense doesn't it?
Keeping jobs in an environment where American workers are demanding obscene pay and benefits and aren't providing equivalently better performance is always going to be an issue. That's an unstable system that's going to break sooner or later. The only solution is for US workers to reduce their demands and take advantage of the benefits their government offers them. Are they drinking beer and watching football on the weekends, or studying a book from our free library system?
Re:You people are absolutely intriguing (Score:2)
Won't happen. Americans will find something else to do that pays better money.
Demanding obscene pay (Score:3, Insightful)
You are correct in that most so-called programmers with less than 5 years experience think they "deserve" a six-figure salary because they used to be with some dot-bomb. You are also correct that most of them aren't productive enough to justify those rates.
The problem is that people with the experience to justify those salaries have a hard time getting noticed and hired when 490 of the 500 resumes submitted are barely or un- qualified.
The problem is also that businesses have no problem nickel and diming their development salaries post-dot-bomb. Hell, I just saw a posting for Oregon that was offering a whopping $12/hour for front-line Unix support. How many people with any kind of professional training (doctor, engineer, lawyer) would even dream of taking a job at such rates? Yet it's "greedy" for me to expect to make a living with a University degree and fifteen years experience to back me up?
Re:Demanding obscene pay (Score:2)
There's no comparison at all. If a Doctor, Lawyer, or Engineer botch a job they are held legally and finacially responsible.
Re:Software spending? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Software spending? (Score:2)
America's greatest rise to international prominance was in the post WWI world where trade had dropped off sharply. Today as a percentage of GDP trade is still not 1/2 what is was before WWI. The fact is that US has an enermous amount of natural resources and a very diverse economy. In terms of relative power a low trade world is probably better for the US than a high trade world. America trades because in terms of absolute growth it is better.
So actually yes we would be a super power regardless.
Re:Software spending? (Score:2)
Unquestionably were we today to not have oil it would induce a depression. But that wasn't the initial question. The initial question was about an alternate world where the US along with the rest of the world wasn't engaging in trade in any meaningful way (i.e. WWI - WWII trade policy had been maintained in the post WWII world).
So really the question comes down to would I be driving a car using gasoline today in such a world and my guess is that I wouldn't be. Gas prices never come down after WWII and so cars never become the major form of transportation, the migration to the suberbs never occurs....
Re:Software spending? (Score:2)
Re:Software spending? (Score:2)
A 25 year transition away from imported oil OTOH might not be so difficult. We have lots of uranium. Large portions of the country could make much more heavy use of solar and wind (for example mandatory solar panels on all houses and office buildings in the southern states...). Huge investments in public transit (for example elevated trains for short commutes...). Greater population density in major cities. Reinvestment in railroads to replace the trucking for most interstate trade.... It would be doable.
Re:Software spending? (Score:2, Interesting)
And Bush is an oil man. He isn't going to mess with big oil.
I also thought all the uranium was in South Africa, and that's why we let them run wild. Maybe that was another element...
Re:Software spending? (Score:2)
Re:Software spending? (Score:2)
As for NIBY, inevitable domain exists in every state (and certainly the federal level). A genuine national program with broad political support would simply force it to happen. Similarly for the PR; Americans aren't stupid if they see the government doing as much solar and wind as they can; and cutting out oil and yet saying we are (say) 300 reactors short on the electricty front they will believe the government. And when they say "we need 300 reactors and we are putting them in locations X1 through X300" they'll go along. What's the alternative: no heat in the winter? No transportation at all?
Re:Software spending? (Score:2)
Actually it was tricium (spelling?) radioactive hydrogen for the H bomb. There were 3 countries that could make this stuff (technology + natural resources): the US, the USSR and South Africa. The USA's was outdated and universally everyone (pentagon included) agreed that they needed to be taken down for multi-year repair work. The USSR wasn't going to sell it to us for obvious reasons. SA wouldn't sell it to us without a lifting of all sanctions.
Re:Software spending? (Score:2)
In India (and numerous other countries), they're poor because foreigners took over their country and siphoned off their wealth for 2 or 3 hundred years.
Re:Software spending? (Score:2)
He may be annoying (Score:2, Insightful)
But he changed the world.
I don't have to call the OS GNU/Linux to know that all this wouldn't have happened without *his* idea.
Linus is great, probably even more competent than many. But RMS kicked the ball. Who knows how many years we would have to wait for Linux, had he not started GNU?
Good night... Sleep well, knowing tomorrow morning no change in EULA will happen to Linux, thanks to good folks like RMS, Linus, many, many others and... the GPL!
note to mod's (Score:2)
-1 Wrong.
Is this another case of people in the USA not knowing there is a wider world?
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: the indian govt wants to save money... (Score:3, Interesting)
> How much money are they saving really? By adopting linux they are also opening thier own tech support centers. Training and hiring those people costs money. They still have to develop (costs money) or buy software (Gee jolly gosh, this costs money too). Supporting linux might actually be a more expensive proposition then sticking with microsoft. I think they did it becuase they feel it is a better operating system. Save money in not needing new hardware maybe? I dont think money was a big factor in thier decision making.
Step back and ask yourself how much money will flow out of the country this way over the next 30 years vs how much would flow out if they didn't switch.
What India and others are doing is commonly called "opting out".
Re:Weird News! (Score:2)
Re:thats all very well but... (Score:2)
And that is a bad thing? When I first started mucking around with linux one of the first things I thought was (and I mean this): "If I were in charge of tech for a company I could save them thousands of dollars with this." That was truly my initial reaction and it stands true. It is one of linux's finest points. I have heard all of the arguments about TCO and they don't hold up. Why? Things such as "Linux support will be more expensive" get thrown in there every time. Maybe now, but that concept doesn't scale. Once you get the whole company on linux people will learn to use it. Support will be less of an issue. Besides, if I am providing the support, I would rather that cash go to myself than MS anyways. Linux is good for me.
As a side note, often MORE techies are needed to support windows, so it is well worth it to pay a *nix admin a bit more and sacrifice an MS junky or two.