Grand Tour: the Story of a Penguin and a Red Fedora 62
GaelDesign writes "The legendary Red Hat Road Tour 2002 is nearly at an end, and a good time was had by all. One of the most successful stops on the tour was the presentation at the O'Reilly and Associates headquarters in Sebastopol, California. Because the Red Hat RV's arrival was delayed due to traffic conditions, Tim O'Reilly gave a rousing speech beforehand that was well received by the audience. Read a detailed report of the event at The Idea Basket."
The Oreilly Definitive Guide (Score:1, Funny)
"OReilly Defininive Guid Guide to the Red Hat Tour, From the Mini Fridge to the Chemical Toilet"
Theflatline
Re:The Oreilly Definitive Guide (Score:4, Funny)
p. 5, 10, 15, 20, 35
"We'll talk more about the chemical toliet in a latter chapter..."
p. 35
"The color of the Chemical Toliet is way beyond the scope of this book. Please refer to the 'OReilly Defininive Guide to Fecese and the thrones in which they are spawned'."
p. 6, 11, 16, 21, 36
"We'll talk more of the 'Red Hat Tour' in a latter chapter. For now, let's discuss other brief technologies that we have books about in which you can buy."
p. 200
"Although we mentioned 'The scope of the Red Hat Tour' in the title of this book, explaning it any deeper would be beyond the scope of this book. Lukily, we offer another book entitled 'Advanced Red Hat Tour description' in which you can purchase.
Re:The Oreilly Definitive Guide (Score:1)
Re:The Oreilly Definitive Guide (Score:3, Funny)
"Wasn't...exciting" (Score:4, Insightful)
Okay, so then why dribble on about it for three pages? This was about the most boring, uninformative trip journal I've ever seen. The author got a good price on an O'Reilly book, heard O'Reilly speak, and saw a Red Hat 8 demo. Whoopeee. Drop by your local LUG and you can write a longer (and more interesting) synopsis of the goings-on than this author did. Don't waste your time on the link.
Re:"Wasn't...exciting" (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd agree that most of our events have more content, but a lot of people were interested in this event: we had almost 3 times our usual turnout. Luckily we were able to use the opportunity to plug a few of our upcoming events.
RedHat's declared goal was to "find out the state of Linux in America" or something like that; IOW they were interested in what questions got asked, etc. The real interesting bits were after the main event when we all went to the local brewpub and drank beer, ate pizza (RedHat paid for both, and for the pre-arrival pizza, too) and generally chatted about whatever. I ended up talking with one of them for a while about some of why I prefer Debian on servers over RedHat.
Debian Road Trip (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Debian Road Trip (Score:2, Informative)
Sarge/testing: testing the next release for stable, nice for office like desktops
SID/Unstable: all the new can cool stuff that aint yet tested, this is for ur desktop.
Considering the number of packages and archs Debian has/supports it does a way better job then RH,MDK etc.
Infact that was the reason I switch from MDK to Debian. After installing a Mozilla RPM, it was obvious how old the libs were, how nasty RPM can be, and how it is a very bad idea to install any thing on those distro that did not come on its CD
You may point out stuff like Openoffice and GNOME 2, but just like they may not be on the before mentioned CDs, they are not in the main archive (Well they are now) but there always was apt archive with those debs for you to point your sources.lst at.
I have both testing and unstable in my sources.lst, and testing set to default in me apt.conf. So my system is kept upto date with sarge, but I can still install stuff from SID (apt-get -t unstable install )
Yes I know parent was a joke, but I dislike Debian being labeled as 'old' (esp w/ compared to RH and MDK), and I love apt and dpkg
Re:Debian Road Trip (Score:1)
Debian is better than RedHat because
- The software package on RedHat is outdated... well it's not but it could be
- RedHat sucks... well it doesn't but it could
- There is no good software package on the main archive... well, there is, but, you know...
- Debian has apt-get and no other distro has it hahaha (Though RedHat has apt-get too and Gentoo has emerge, which goes far beyond apt...)
http://www.gentoo.org
http://freshrpms.net/apt
Re:Debian Road Trip (Score:1)
I dont think RH sucks, I just had one those 'I must defend' moments, since I honestly think Debian is being unfairly miss labeled as 'old' by too many people.
I know there is now apt4rpm, but it was generally true that if you install an rpm that was not from the CD you end up in dependency hell. Apt4RPM is a good example of why competing distros is a good thing. Every one brings something to the table
There are many good packages in main (afaik Debian has the biggest archive of packages 10'000+) Its just people tend to attack based on those few 'must have' and I was aiming to be pre-emptive.
I will probable try gentoo one day, if I get a spare box, my desktop is setup how I need it. I just dont have the free time to try out lots of different distros as I did a few years back. But I do know you can setup apt to install from source instead of prebuilt bins (the kernel build scripts give a hint of this, and I hope that maybe one day as simple as 'apt-get build ' for example)
what next? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:what next? (Score:2, Funny)
SInce the site appears to have been /.ed... (Score:4, Informative)
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Grand Tour: the Story of a Penguin and a Red Fedora
The Idea Basket > Articles
posted by Jared White on November 16, 2002 05:16 PM
Red Hat Road Tour 2002
Mission: to discover the state of Linux in America
Stop #16
The Place: O'Reilly and Associates, Sebastopol, CA
The Time: 7:00 PM (in fact, 7:50 PM, more on that later)
The Vehicle: a large red RV that was an amazing sight to behold
The Audience: members of the North Bay Linux Users Group, along with a few stray outsiders (like me)
Arrival
My friend and I arrived at the O'Reilly headquarters at around 6:35 PM (PST). For those of you who have yet to see O'Reilly's new digs just outside of downtown Sebastopol, they really are a striking set of buildings. Built in a country-cottage style with peaked roofs and gables, though large-scale and at least three stories high, they exude an old-fashioned, down-to-earth warmth and cheeriness that belie the ultra-modern high-tech activities commencing within their light grey-blue walls.
A fair number of people had already gathered in the conference-room-turned-presentation-center when we entered, but we were lucky to find seats relatively close to the front of the room. Nonetheless, it quickly turned out that pizza was on in another part of the building, and before you could count to twenty-three using only prime numbers, the room was deserted. However, since we had already eaten, it was time for us to take a look at the O'Reilly bookstore.
That was fun. Quite fun. Evil Geniuses in a Nutshell and books of a similar sort for sale were displayed on shelves covering an entire area next to the lobby in the front of the building. Thanks to the 20% off discount available to presumably anyone who bothered to show up, I left the store with O'Reilly's PHP Pocket Reference to give me great geeky reading pleasure in the cold wintery days ahead; and when my friend returned home later that night, XML in a Nutshell was tucked firmly underneath his arm.
An Unexpected Surprise
We got back to the conference room around 7:00 PM and were promptly informed that the Red Hat RV was quite late! Apparently, the lovely traffic problems of the San Francisco Bay Area had grabbed the folks from Red Hat and swallowed them whole, so we would have to wait a while. That was the bad news. The good news was that the time would be filled by a rousing little speech from none other than Tim O'Reilly himself! Since I had never seen one of Tim's presentations in person, this was quite a treat for me. As I would quickly discover, Tim's folksy, gentlemanly manner is well reflected in the buildings his business occupies. The subject of his speech, one presented by him a few times in the recent past (but one I'd never seen) was, at first, rather alarming: "Why Linux Doesn't Matter." You can be sure the audience laughed rather nervously at this strange topic for a geek gathering targeted mostly at die-hard Linux users. But what he had to say was, in fact, rather brilliant.
Tim's Speech in a Nutshell
Basically, the computer world is on the verge of a major paradigm shift. In the past, both users and developers have thought of computers in terms of what applications they can run and what system services are available to use. What is now beginning to change isn't that basic concept, but the definition of what an application or service actually is. Previous "killer apps" that helped accelerate the adoption of new computer systems were such apps as the first spreadsheet, or word processor, or even the Web browser. But now the killer apps are of a completely different nature. Tim said that he'd heard recently about someone who bought their first computer so that they could use amazon.com. Here was an "application" that didn't actually run on the computer locally at all. The computer was basically just an access point for getting onto the Internet, where all the really fun stuff was.
By now, Tim had brought up the (to some) unpleasant subject of Microsoft
Which brings us back around to Linux. In trying to think of what Linux and the Open Source heritage could bring to the table in the world of Web applications and services, Tim came up with an important idea. Linux from the very beginning embraced the basic UNIX philosophy of keeping everything modular and based on open communication. With a modular system, components can be replaced with different components by different developers, and because they all adhere to the same protocols, it works. Instead of using a philosophy of control to create a closed system, UNIX is all about communication and open standards. UNIX was the best platform to develop the Internet with because of that philosophy. Now Linux provides the best platform with which to develop new Web technologies and applications that can kick-start the transition to an Internet-based operating system environment.
In closing, Tim suggested that the more the Linux and Open Source communities focus on building this Internet OS using the UNIX philosophy of modularity and communication, compared with the Microsoft philosophy of control and complexity that places undue importance on tools in order to work with technology, the better. Instead of fearing Web services, we should be embracing them, albeit on our terms, not Microsoft's.
Elementary, my dear Watson
Just before the Red Hat RV finally arrived, Tim followed his speech with a short Q&A session. I won't go into all the details, but there is one thing I'd like to mention. With all this talk of Web services, I, of course, had to bring up Watson (and the copy-cat Sherlock 3 by Apple) as an excellent example of how data and functionality available on the Web could be repackaged in a more familiar desktop application form. Tim replied that he not only liked Watson a great deal, but wished there was a similar program for Linux! In addition, he mentioned Rendezvous as a good example of a simple technology "hack" will enable previously closed applications to open up their functionality to other computers and devices running on a network. For instance, a future version of iTunes will be able to share its playlists and music files with other copies of iTunes running on a local network. Bottom line from Tim O'Reilly: if you have a device or data that you think might turn out to be useful for someone else, make it accessible!
Paradigm Shifts (Score:2, Funny)
Oh boy! I wish those damn paradigmns wouldn't keep shifting around like they do! They never stay still long enough so you can get a clean shot at them with a rifle. Hard critters to track too.
My Daddy shot a 80 pounder once! We had it stuffed and it nailed to the wall of the den.
Oh shit! Come to think of it, I think the critter was a *pangolin*, not a paradigm. Easy mistake to make tho.
I think paradigms make better eating tho.
Re:Paradigm Shifts (Score:2)
Yeah. They taste like chicken...
Re:SInce the site appears to have been /.ed (Score:1, Redundant)
Seeing Red
7:50 PM: the guys from Red Hat have appeared on the scene, and they're making haste to install projectors, connect cables, and to inform us that we have some serious traffic problems in the SF Bay Area. Hey, tell us something we don't know! Soon, the equipment setup is complete, and it's time to kick back and relax as the boot-up screen of Red Hat 8.0 glows off the front wall of the room.
Jeremy Hogan was the main presenter for the evening. Manager of Community Relations at Red Hat, he has a quick wit and a confidence in his message. That doesn't mean he can't take criticism from the audience, no. In fact, one of the main reasons for this road tour was to obtain feedback from ordinary folks around the country on what Red Hat could do to improve its business, its policies, and its products. Jeremy was joined by James McDermott and Dave Lawrence, both engineers who know the nuts and bolts of the Red Hat Linux system. Dave's main job is to do QA on every version of RHL that ships -- in other words, he has to test every package in the system to make sure it's working and stable. Also present was Jonathan Opp, a marketing writer who came along to ensure all the feedback received on the trip would be properly recorded.
Jeremy started off the show by showing off all the neat nifty new features of, you guessed it, Red Hat Linux 8.0. Namely, the yes-Linux-can-look-sexy-and-still-kick-ass interface of 8.0 called Bluecurve. Bluecurve is either an amazing blending of the two most popular Linux desktop environments, GNOME and KDE, or just a cute theme tacked on pre-existing software -- depending on who you talk to. The reality lies more in the middle of those viewpoints. Basically, Red Hat created a look and feel, a set of icons, an organizational scheme, and a number of configuration tools, and integrated them into GNOME and KDE to create a more unified interface and environment. Bluecurve is about 80/20 GNOME and KDE, respectively. If you want to use pure GNOME or pure KDE, you can, but most users will probably opt to stay with the default setup.
Since most of Jeremy's demonstration covered territory you're no doubt already familiar with from reading news and reviews on the Web, I won't cover it all here. What struck me as the most interesting thing about RH 8.0 was the fact that much of the GUI-based system software has been completely rebuilt from the ground up. Most of the configuration tools are brand new. The package manager is brand new. The GUI-based X Windows System configurator is brand new. The roaming network profiles utility is brand new. In other words, much of the Bluecurve desktop environment is actually at what is effectively a 1.0 version status. The Red Hat guys repeated numerous times that they are encouraging as much feedback from users as possible on how these new tools and system utilities can be improved for future releases of Red Hat. Really, one of the most promising things about RH 8.0 isn't that it's good now, but that will it be very good in the near future. Red Hat has gone out on a limb and has taken the all-important step of rearchitecting the default Linux desktop environment so that modern, cutting-edge functionality can be built on top of it in a rapid manner. This is an important milestone for the usability of Linux and its suitability for end user solutions, and I think other distribution vendors will be scrambling to keep up with the pace of Red Hat's development in these areas going forward.
Know Your Market
The Red Hat 8.0 demo lasted only a short while, and much of the rest of the evening was spent doing Q&A. Super geek talk abounded, with topics ranging from iSCSI to the DMCA brought up to keep the presenters on their toes. Most of what was discussed wasn't all the exciting outside the context of the room, but an important point came up which is a good thing to remember.
Red Hat is not trying to compete with Microsoft on the desktop as far as average non-technical home users are concerned. RH 8.0 is a business desktop (and server, of course), and only for home users with enough technical savvy to be interested in and know how to work with Linux. That being said, I personally feel that Red Hat is ultimately building a better system for all users than a lot of other distribution developers are at the moment. This is based on my own perception of the market, not actual product testing. But even if Red Hat Linux is well on its way to becoming the best all-around distribution, Red Hat realized how important it is to know your market. If you target the audiences that will appreciate your product and support it the most, than you will have a much greater chance of success.
Anyway, back to our story. After the Q&A session, the presenters wrapped up the evening's festivities with a jolly good T-shirt throwing fest and an entertaining raffle drawing involving three red fedoras (gee, I wonder why?). I'm afraid your intrepid reporter failed to win anything that evening -- that is, except for a free no-time-limit evaluation version of Red Hat 8.0. Cool.
Re:SInce the site appears to have been /.ed (Score:3, Interesting)
It reads like a marketing brochure written at Red Hat, not like an independent report. This seems to be a consistent problem with much Linux 'journalism' out there.
Writers have to learn to step out of their personal enthusiasm for the product being written about, or they come off like a proud dad describing Junior's last Little League game. Readers figure this stuff out, and it's not enough to preach to the choir.
Re:SInce the site appears to have been /.ed (Score:1)
Brand new package manager? (Score:2)
Now all you have to do is install synaptic and apt4rpm and you've got package-installation and management sewn up!
good ole product placement (Score:1)
Re:good ole product placement (Score:1)
However, on a personal note, I was the organizer for the event at Ursinus College (Collegeville, PA, USA -- on the tour, Nov 2) and I think that it was a very valuable event. The ACM here is trying to promote use of something other than the MS that is basically shoved down our throats. We aren't saying that you have to like, love, or use Redhat, we just want to show that there EXISTS an alternative and that, hopefully, sometime down the road, someone is asked "how can we do such and such, do we have to get a MS guy to do this" to which they can respond, "no, I remember hearing about this thing called 'linux', it might be able to do what we need". I feel we succeeded. We were able to introduce hundreds of people to linux, what it can do, and more importantly, that it exists.
My 2 cents
-CPM
Re:good ole product placement (Score:1)
Road tour was nothing more then marketing (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Road tour was nothing more then marketing (Score:2, Informative)
I suspect this is a post from one of the two guys who asked three times why we don't use apt-get. And took great pains to tell us repeatedly that was why they wouldn't use Red Hat. So of course RHN and the new package manager came up. They even asked twice in a row b/c they really didn't want to hear the answer, just take an easy dig at us. It happens, we'll live.
Yes it was marketing, but there was an awful lot more that was discussed. Including technical features, product road map, Q&A, heck Dave even spent over an hour trying to fix text on someone's laptop display.Hopefully someone else from the event can post their opinion as well. I doubt you can speak for a hundred people.
Well, RHN is pretty important to them, currently (Score:2)
The Red Hat road tour stopped at our University (SIUE) near St. Louis. For the most part almost everyone was very disipointed with the stop. It turned out to be more of a marketing ploy with them trying to sell the Red Hat Network, then a stop to realy explain the advantages of Linux and open source all together.
It's logical for them to want to talk about that, since it's almost certainly going to be their main bread-and-butter product for the medium term. It works well enough, at this point, and is packaged exactly the right way for the business users it's primarily aimed at. I may or may not want to hear an entire presentation mostly to it, but it's understandable that they'd want to talk up its virtues.
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
Friggin' weird (Score:2)
Re:Friggin' weird (Score:1)
Legendary? (Score:3, Funny)
The thing isn't even over and you're calling it legendary? Seems like a waste of a good word.
I don't have karma to burn, but my pre-coffee indignation wouldn't let this pass.
Re:Legendary? (Score:1)
Re:Legendary? (Score:1)
Re:Legendary? (Score:1)
News? (Score:2)
The editorial bias here goes from being obvious to absurd when nothing but a bit of marketing fluff gets described as 'legendary'.
Well crap. (Score:2, Funny)
Fame has abandoned me again.
Last Post! (Score:1)
digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top
of a mountain or in the petals of a flower. To think otherwise is to demean
the Buddha -- which is to demean oneself.
-- Robert Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance"
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