Korea Replacing 120,000 Windows with Linux 459
The Korean government has just signed a contract with Hancom to purchase 120,000 copies of HancomLinux Deluxe 2.0 (which is basically Red Hat OS + tweaks + korean language support + KDE localized) and HancomOffice 2.0. Thats quite a big achievement. Here is Hancom's Press Release about it.
Major achievement (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Capitalism will pass (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Major achievement (Score:2)
The other enlightened governments I was referring to are France, Germany, and Argentina, which have been considering adopting Linux for their government computing systems as well.
Idiot. Guess that's why you post anonymously.
Re:Major achievement (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Major achievement (Score:5, Insightful)
Microsoft doesn't pay dividends on stock you own. Hence many critics complaints about their shifting of money to avoid paying any taxes at all. When you are buying msoft stock you are hoping it will be worth more in the future to sell. There is no revenue side for you as the investor other than this. Because of this msoft MUST continue to increase the dominance it has to push the stock price up and keep investors happy. The gist? msoft can't be a well behaved company and keep the stockholders happy.
Gates gets richer and richer by year at an incredibly rapid pace because of the particular "loophole" in taxes on stock.
Re:Major achievement (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Major achievement (Score:2)
Re:Major achievement (Score:2, Informative)
Business Perspective Investing explains it like this: an entrepreneur comes to you saying if you pay to start up his company at the end of the year you will still own the company and you will get the initial investment returned to you. At the end of the year you're ecstatic because this actually happens so you go back to the entrepreneur and tell him to start up another company with the profit money; you will then have two companies returning your initial investment every year- and of course this pattern continues. The only problem is at the end of every year when you get your profit cheque you have to pay taxes and replace that amount out of your own pocket to buy the next company.
But the entrepreneur being crafty has a plan. He suggests that, instead of paying you profit, the company keeps the money and uses it expand itself. This is just like you owning two companies except both companies end up having the same name. So even though this is the exact same situation you are now not paying taxes on your expanding investment. Sure if you decide to go liquid you'll have to pay taxes then but Epsilon taxes paid will be much less. This is the beauty of compound interest (in this case it is working backward but if you plug through the math you can see the concept of compound interest is still at play here.)
Re:Major achievement (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Major achievement (Score:4, Insightful)
And it's because of Hancom that South Korea
actually has a word processor that handles
their native language. About two years ago
Microsoft tried to buy Hancom with the intent
of taking their native-Korean-language office
suite off the market and replace
it with MS Office (which isn't nearly as
functional in Korean). The sale was blocked
by the Korean government. So you think M$
should make decisions that make other people
suffer for its own business gains, but you
act suprised when people hate it? Microsoft
has earned the hate of many people,
both in Korea and the US.
Do you think it's
good for US business to have to keep spending
billions of dollars fighting off the Outlook
Virus Of The Week? I can't afford to take the
time off of real work to keep trying to keep
the work M$ computers virus free. Is it supposed
to be a comfort to me and the millions of small
business owners like me who have substantial
productivity drains from Microsoft software that
Bill Gates is making lots of money? To be blunt,
if you think M$ is more important to the economy than ten thousand randomly chosen small businesses, you're making the same sorts of mistakes the Soviets did. Personally, I don't want the US to go the way of the Soviet Union.
Re:Major achievement (Score:2)
Face it, Microsoft is harming the US and world economy constantly, and the harm the company causes will only grow worse.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
huge irony (Score:2)
Incredible. The poorest desktops will then be the first to embrace all the goodness of freedom and be technically superior. So while government cubicles in Korea have ssh, X, compilers of all types, postgress, mySQL, multiple virtual screens, multiple workplaces, multiple and superior image manipulators, multiple and superior file and web browsers, I at a fortune 500 US company will be stuck with an w2k machine with all of it's fundamental and implimentational flaws. No real user accounts, no real file permissions, no encypted remote login, no real GUI export, no real image manipulation, one quirky file and web browser, no real shell, no grep, no find, and no compilers. How much of that do I really need to get my job done? None, but I don't need anything other than a knife and a match to cook dinner. The match is optional really, I could just eat nuts, berries and grass.
Somehow, I don't think this competitive advantage will escape corporate America forever.
OpenSource Korea (Score:5, Interesting)
We know that India and China are battling it out to see who is going to be the powerhouse computer programming center and here Korea may have just pulled a coup by declaring openSource to be something that the gov't official supports. I dont know about you, but I would now look towards Korea as a contender for the place to where computer programming is acutaly done. Think of the costs savingd from using opensource
(I know OpenSource still costs money to run, but just think of the savings Korea will experince)
Thanks for reading
Re:OpenSource Korea (Score:2)
Re:OpenSource Korea (Score:2)
Re:OpenSource Korea (Score:5, Informative)
For example, some people from our own local LUG (http://www.chennailug.org) convinced the electricity board of some states here to use Linux.
(Incidentally, the other developer besides Miguel working on Mono, Ravi Pratap, is from our LUG)
The LUGs also take it upon themselves to spread Linux to colleges and schools. Lots of LUGs around the country have convinced schools, colleges and offices by conducting local Linux expos to showcase the prowess of Linux. The problem is, India being a relatively big country, you do not hear about these things. And offlate, we are really getting commercial queries to the LUG, and people are beginning to use it as a hiring ground for hunting good talent. Which I'd say, is a very good thing!
Another point is that, there are a lot of LUGs in India which have convinced their respective state/local bodies to switch to Linux. Since it is a bunch of freelancers doing it, it is not known.
But the truth is, India is beginning to see an evergrowing stream of companies switching to Linux. But because of the fact that other things are also going on, these are just not noticed. As an example, the number of people attending our LUG meets has literally tripled in the past couple of months!
My point is this - just because some companies do not do it, and there is no monetary benifit involved does not mean it's not happening. Just that world domination is happening subtly but surely
What?? (Score:2)
Re:OpenSource Korea (Score:2)
Re:Yeah, but what about StarCraft? (Score:2)
Now, they didn't hire him for Linux development, but if anybody can show how to do cross-platform game development in SDL, he's the guy.
Um, we need some details before (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry to be such a poopy-pants. (Has anyone heard any more about Mexico's initiatives?)
and for redhat? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:and for redhat? (Score:2)
So he's probably fine with it. Now he has 120,000 potential customers he didn't have before.
Domino Theory (Score:4, Interesting)
Now, does this analogy apply to Free vs. Monopolistic Software ? We have recently seen the Chinese undertake a government program to promote free software over Microsoft. Now Korea. Is India next? Or Japan?
Granted, geography is not necessarily a factor in this "war" but language certainly is. When can we expect this to spread to Europe or (better yet) the US?
The Domino Theory was far different, actually (Score:2, Interesting)
Most of our covert and not-so-covert operations were directed at those who posed a danger of not submitting. This lead to some of the worst atrocities of the century.
Re:The Domino Theory was far different, actually (Score:2)
Re:Domino Theory (Score:2)
IIRC the technical definition of a monopoly is a bit over 70%. I doubt losing a hundred thousand desktops will drop MS share of the desktop market below 70%.
If somebody knows the actual number please post is so that people like danhaskett don't go around thinking that a monopoly is defined as a 100% market share.
Re: (Score:2, Troll)
Re:Domino Theory (Score:4, Insightful)
Me the techie does. Me the consumer does not. In 1995, most major dummy computer stores (where regular consumers get their stuff) offered computers with either OS/2 Warp 3 or Windows 95 preinstalled. Now, it's just Windows.
So while Microsoft has no monopoly in the techie market, they do have one in the thousand times larger real consumer market.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Domino Theory (Score:2, Insightful)
so i can get linux, but i have to pay for windows first on that new computer.
and why cant i get it preloaded, because MS has the computer mfg's by the balls
I can get a computer without windows, but it wont be at Best Buy, Compusa, Circut city, etc etc etc.
Re:Domino Theory (Score:2)
No, it was just Windows of Mac back then also.
As an old OS/2 user, I did keep an eye out for pre-installed machines and they just didn't exist. IBM's PC division specifically did not pre-install OS/2 for a variety of reasons.
Finding a Linux pre-install is still just as hard now as an OS/2 pre-install and for most of the same reasons.
For software in general, Linux has a much better position in 'most major dummy computer stores' since you can actually expect to find some software and not be dissapointed. Not much software, but it exists and I've bought it.
Re:Domino Theory (Score:3, Interesting)
Not correct. There are a number of quantitative measures that are used in various legal arenas to test for the presence anti-competitve market concentrations.
Example:
HERFINDAHL-HIRSCHMAN INDEX (HHI)--A measure of market concentration that's used primarily in merger cases. See the Justice/FTC Horizontal Merger Guidelines of 1992, 1.5 (Antitrust Law & Economics Review, Vol. 23:2, at 68, 73, n. 17.) This concentration measure is calculated by summing the squares of the individual market shares of all competing firms there. Thus a market consisting of only 4 firms with shares of 30%, 30%, 20%, and 20% has an HHI of 2600 (30 x 30 + 30 x 30 + 20 x 20 + 20 x 20 = 900 + 900 + 400 + 400 = 2600). The HHI ranges from a high of 10,000 (a single-firm monopolist) to a number approaching zero (an atomistic market with, say, hundreds of very small firms). "Moderate" concentration is said to begin with an HHI of 1000 and "high" concentration at 1800. Id., pp. 69-70. The latter is roughly approximated by a top-4-firm share of around 50%.
Thus Microsoft's 95% desktop market share gives an HHI index greater than 9025, which is WAY above the high market concentration expected to lead to constrained competition.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Domino Theory (Score:2)
Well, presumptively they are. Whether they are in fact a monopoly is what the court decides on the basis of evidence presented. MS contested the presumption, but lost in court, so now it is established as fact that they are a monopoly. (That is what courts do.)
Since Microsoft also thinks that the court made an error in its finding of fact, they contested that conclusion in the court of appeals which upheld the basic conclusion. So as far as I can tell, Microsoft is a monopoly; while they and apologists for them may not wish to admit the truth, an impartial juror has concluded that they are, and has had his conclusion backed by the court of appeals.
Not having followed all of the evidence at trial, I have no opinion on Microsoft market share. Presumably if Microsoft thought that some evidence was in error, they would have provided opposing evidence.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Domino Theory (Score:2)
Do you have any numbers to back that up? What operating system the other 30 to 40% desktops running?
" Finally, my original statement stands. Even if MS has 100% market share they wouldn't necessarily be a monopoly nor would they necessarily be restraining trade."
This is your opinion. It has nothing to do with the facts or the law. Apparently you think the law is wrong but nevertheless it's the law. MS is a monopoly as defined by the law of the united states. Not only does the law say so but so does a federal court an an appeals court. Not only is MS a monopoly but according to two courts they have abused that monopoly and have harmed the consumers. The trial is in the penalty phase right now. Ms will be punished for harming the consumers it remains to be seen weather that punishment is substantial or a slap on the wrist.
Burying your head in the sand and repeating "ms is not a monopoly" will not change the law, the federal court ruling, nor the appeals court ruling. All of the above state that MS is an abusive monopoly and will punish it for being one.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Domino Theory (Score:2)
And in this case people who know much more about the law and the sherman acts decided that they were a monopoly and an abusive one at that.
Re:Domino Theory (Score:2)
Oh? What, praytell, makes up the other 30-40% in your opinion? The simple fact is that 95% of all desktop operating systems people buy are Windows. And 95% of all desktop operating systems actually run (which includes unlicensed copies) are likely to be Windows, too.
Finally, my original statement stands. Even if MS has 100% market share they wouldn't necessarily be a monopoly
Economically, they would be a monopoly. Legally, US legislators have their panties in knots whenever it comes to limiting the power of big businesses, hence the US legal system has a rather oddball definition of "monopoly". But that's an issue with available legal remedies, not diagnosing the problem.
Re:Domino Theory (Score:2)
If companies knew how to, and were willing to, price products equitably and correctly in the absence of competition, we wouldn't need a free market for any goods. The fact is that no company knows the correct pricing of their products without competition, and, furthermore, they would be violating their fiduciary duty to their stockholders if they priced them as if there were competition. A market doesn't work efficiently unless it is divided among many comparable players.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Domino Theory only works for slave states (Score:2)
The domino theory was that they newly aquired slave states could be put to use spreading the interests of the Soviet slave state. This was seen in Cuba, which supplied the USSR with sugar, and fighting men for troubles in Angloa, as well as subversives for the rest of Central America. The whole country was made into state property controlled by Fidel, who therefore owned it all. Free speech and press were eliminated, those opposed were liquidated, universities, schools and presses all became tools of the party which was ultimatly rulled by people in Moscow. The reward for this slavery is one of the lowest standards of living in the Americas, matched only by slave states in Eastern Europe and Asia. So while these unfortuanate places became horribly inefficient, all of the effort could be directed at conquest. China agreed with this assesment at the time and was rather upset about North Korea and Vietnam, which they viewed as an extention of Soviet power. China had designs of it's own.
In the software world, M$ is the slave state. It is an all embracing company that sees itself getting between you and anything you want to do with computing machinery so that Bill Gates can extract your money. M$ is one of the largest proponents of the inaptly named "Digital Rights Management" movement that will strip you of ownership of your intelectual property. M$ has already written software licenses that forbid use of their software to criticise M$ (see Front Page story Slashdot ran a few months ago for evidence of this blatant corporate censorship). All M$ licensess are written so that M$ may terminate your use of their software at anytime, though they would never dare test it in court. Those who fall victim to M$ software inadvetantly spread it as M$ jurry riggs their file formats to be impossible to impliment on other platforms. All money and efforts spent on M$ software is effort and money furthering the M$ slave state.
Re:Domino Theory only works for slave states (Score:2, Informative)
what are you smoking? If you've ever been to Cuba (and I have been, because my government allows me to) you would have seen that even if the people there are not rich, there are no beggars or homeless people, all children go to school, there is no unemployment and everybody gets medical treatment for free.
Compare this with e.g. colombia and stop your uninformed trolling about "slave states". there is no free speech, but what means free speech when you starve ?
An btw the percentage of children which die in the first years (don't know the term) is in Cuba less then in any american country (including the US)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Domino Theory (Score:2)
Of course there is. They're in different languages, they're in different locations, they're being sold on a market that has different dynamics, different laws, a different base of consumers. Monopolies usually are restricted to a single country; besides Microsoft I can't think of any others off the top of my head. Or are you actually saying a company can't be a monopoly unless they totally and unfairly dominate the market for that product in the entire WORLD?
Great Win for Linux community... (Score:2, Insightful)
Linux is great for that ... (Score:4, Informative)
If I want both English and Japanese on the NT box, that means I have to have two seperate licenses and two different installs on the same machine in two different partitions.
I had heard that Win2K lets you choose between languages and related that to a friend who was buying a PC here in Tokyo, but that simply isn't the case. (At least not for J/E.) MS apparently does make such a version, but it is only available to corporate customers, not via retail.
As for software, apps are being made in other languages and sometimes 'ported' to English. Sylpheed (http://sylpheed.good-day.net) is one such package, a really good mail client (MUA).
Other packages have been translated well enough that a non-English speaker may think it's a native program - Webmin comes to mind, as does Sourceforge's website.
There are probably others that are similar, but I haven't realized that I am not seeing it in the developer's native language. (I get a lot of my software from the Japanese Linux magizine CDs' monthly picks, so it's not always clear what the 'original' language of a package is.)
Funny thing is, I've never seen Mandrake in these distro magazines - I hear it's one of the most popular in the US, but have yet to run across a copy here. I've wondered if it's an i18n issue...
IMHO, multi-lingual envronments is one area (critical for me) that Linux outshines its closed-source alternatives. (Want Icelandic Linux? No problem. Windows? No can do.)
Cheers,
Jim in Tokyo
Hmmm (Score:4, Funny)
Wish I started out on *nix (Score:4, Insightful)
As for these Koreans, I think this is a major step in computer education for those new to computers. Those who are not familiar with computers whatsoever will have no problem adapting to Linux, since they know nothing else. When learning any non windows operating system... you get so much of a better feel on how computers actually work. I think it's a great tool to learn, and even as just a user... I've noticed RedHat is great for that purpose.
Good for Self-Sufficiency (Score:4, Interesting)
Globally, IT dependence on Windows has been a blight on the evolution and advancement of computing tech by homogenizing platforms and marginalizing new, innovative, and/or different domestic manufacturers (eg Sharp's X68000, the NEC PC-980x platform).
Good to see Korea join Mexico & China start working on self-sufficiency rather than the pernicious co-dependence of taking the easy route of being a MS shop.
120 000 copies (Score:2)
What I'm looking forward to... (Score:3, Flamebait)
Call the OED (Score:2)
Asian market (Score:2, Informative)
It appears that Hancom is going after the whole asian market, not just Korea. Versions of this office is being sold in Taiwan with localized chinese. Maybe because they have used the Qt toolkit, as it uses using unicode internally and provides very easy localization support (using the tr() ) function for those who know Qt).
look here for a screenshot. [linuxfab.cx] [Big5 encoding]
Running on a few megs, this might give MS a run for its money. I'm just wondering how it implements its input methods (Input methods in linux is still far behind Windows).
Re:Actually unicode isn't really used in east Asia (Score:2, Insightful)
Actually, Unicode does have different glyphs for the different forms of the same character, for example:
Traditional:
Simplified:
Japanese:
And without Unicode, you wouldn't be able to see all three characters in one page without doing a lot of messy stuff. Also, most chinese can usually read both sets, and many write simplifed on a daily basis (the difference is just like handwriting/printing, with thousands of variations, not just 52 alphabets :)
In the later versions of Unicode (3.x), almost ALL necessary characters are included, including obscure cantonese swear words... If you are concerned about how the fonts are shown based on the different cultures (like missing a dash here and there), you can use a japanese font instead of a chinese font, and just map to it.
The main problem is that Unicode CJK characters usually take 3 bytes while other character sets like Big5 and GB only takes 2. And also, almost all legacy systems, including many business and especially cargo shipping software in south east asia uses their local character set, not Unicode. This will not change for a long time. However, the trend is to use UTF8 in the data storage layer and converting it to the local set (and just replacing a character not in the local character set with a '?') for the user in the display layer.
Microsoft press release (Score:2)
It will probably end up like... "At press time no MS official was available for comment." That will be enough for now.
But within a year, when the Korean goverment decides to replace windows from ALL of their machines there are chances to see a leaked internal marketing memo or something similar. Just for fun lets imagine how would it start...
"Why did we loose the South Korean market".
I know that this is unlikely to happen, but it is possible and if it happens I will be cracking myself up!
Is this the route Linux distributors should take? (Score:2, Insightful)
What if focusing on government demands was the answer? Ask them what they want, or develop with government needs (security, administration, etc.) in mind. If you do it right it shouldn't be hard to convince a government, be it municipal, provincial/state or maybe even national, that it's in their best interest to use a very cheap OS with few security holes and entertainment-based distractions (as much as we love Solitaire).
If you can get government workers to be exposed to Linux every day at work, it would encourage them to use it at home (though some might try to avoid it if the experience is unpleasant). That would then increase the general user base and give more reason for civilians to use it (as their friends would use it).
file import correctness (Score:2, Interesting)
on some of the Word or PowerPoint docs that I must be able to display and edit. These are mostly IEEE standards documents. IETF is fortunately more enlightended.
Since I only have to work with such things about 10% of the time, Vmware has been the solution for me. Expensive? Absolutely since I purchase both vmware and M$. Expensive hardware too since running two operating systems requires more memory. Vmware sucks up a lot. But it works flawlessly for me.
I'll give Hancom a try.
I can't imagine a government agency standardizing on it if it didn't work well. Even so, I have a queasy feeling about whether the software can readily accept my ieee documents or not. Their webpage cites "Enhanced compatibility with MS office files" - kind of noncomittal. Even so, I'll try this before something that seems overly pretentious and overly hyped like Lindows.
It may be worth mentioning that I would really prefer that Adobe had not backed away from Framemaker on Linux. But that's no longer an option.
g
sloppy journalism (Score:4, Insightful)
hey folks, aren't there still two Korea's?
Reasons the Korean government adopted Linux (Score:5, Informative)
Since the early 90's, the most widely used word processor in South Korea has been Hancom Word. Before Windows 95, it ran under DOS and when Windows 95 came out, a graphical version appeared. Even today, most universities and all government agencies use Hancom Word because of national pride and preference to software developed within Korea and by Koreans. It was a brillient move to port the software to Linux/Unix(I'm not sure which version of Unix it ran under... i believe the originally the port was targeted for Solaris) and with the sudden interest and popularity of Linux in Southeast Asia, Hancom is reaping the benefits.
100% of the Korean Government is currently already running the Windows version of Hancom's Word so it was a particularly easy decision to choose free/open source operating system over M$ Windows... Meaning, that if 23% of the annual purchase is Linux/Hancom Office, it's because 77% percent is Windows XP but running Hancom's Word Windows version. It simply doesn't matter to the Korean government what OS it runs as long as it runs Hancom Word... It doesn't have to worry that 23% of its documents will be incompatible to the rest. Since every government agency runs Hancom Word, 100% compatibility is guaranteed.
Sadly, this isn't the case outside the government and education system. The majority of the Korean public run Windows because virtually all PC games run only under Windows(In my opinion, S.Korea is becoming the Gaming Mecca of the World, but that's another story). The Korean public will never adopt Linux unless Starcraft and Fortess(a korean online game) are ported to Linux (hehehe). In other words, unless either an exact counter-part or a superior standard base/software doesn't exist... people won't switch.
Anyway, this type of move would not be as easy in other countries/governments because most countries rely on Microsoft Office products. Unlike the rest of the world, the South Korean government standardized it's office suite with a korean Office suite, which wisely ported it's product to Linux. I'm not sure if China's government is using an office suite developed by a Chinese company, but it wouldn't surprise me it it did... if that's the case, it would be extremely easy to switch the OS within the Chinese government to Linux as it was in the South Korean government.
Since it doesn't seem anytime soon MS will port MS Office so I guess we just need to develope a better Office suite.(keep up the good work guys)~
The next step in world domination (Score:2)
StarCraft allegedly runs under Wine. (which means it runs under Linux.)
Get those Korean geeks working on Fortress, and then we will own Korea.
Bahahahahahahahahahahahhaahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..
Re:The next step in world domination (Score:2, Funny)
Whooptie. M$ loses nothing (Score:2, Insightful)
This is NOT good news for Open Source (Score:5, Informative)
January 9th, 2002 in Seoul, Korea - HancomLinux,
[warning: lots of strong worded opinion ahead (-:]
Piss-poor Slashdot reporting at work again. Read the press release, people. The Korean government is purchasing 120,000 copies of the proprietary, closed source commercial office software, HancomOffice. Linux is free. They're not paying for free software. They're not paying for localization work done by the KDE/Qt people. They're not paying for the RedHat Linux distribution. No.. They're paying for proprietary software (with proprietary file formats) and related support services. This is NOT what Linux needs. The article does not mention the cost, but even at a very conservative estimate of $10 per copy x 120,000, that's $1,200,000 and I would guess that support services are extra. Does the Korean government realize that if they took that same amount of money and paid say.. 15 top Open Source programmers for one year to work full time and perfect KOffice or OpenOffice, that they (and the entire rest of the world) would never have to spend another dime on office software?! But instead, they've just locked themselves into an upgrade cycle, even if it does use Linux and is a much better/cheaper product than Microsoft's. Proprietary software is damned stupid and totally uncalled for. And it makes me sick to think of how much the US government spends of my own tax dollars on proprietary software as they make the same type of mistakes.
Open Source programmers need to wake up, quit their day jobs and realize that the world is in great need of their services. Yes, it will take innovation and initiative. Yes, it will take new business models that are purely service, support, and consulting oriented. But as this article shows, the money is out there.. loads of it. And you can help change the world for the better at the same time. Once software is set free, it's permanent. Obviously small companies (hence with small programming staff) such as Hancom and Gobe have been successful in producing high-quality office suites in a relatively short amount of time. Why? Because it's not that difficult! Here sits Microsoft's cash cow sleeping on a grassy knoll, just waiting to be tipped over. And yet the various Open Source productivity projects are moving at a snail's pace because nobody has taken a strong enough initiative to get the job done and over with once and for all.
As a sidenote, anybody else think Slashdot editors are going a little bit soft on proprietary Linux software these days? *cough*va*cough*
Re:This is NOT good news for Open Source (Score:5, Insightful)
If your goal is to give as many people as possible a taste and gentle introduction to OS/FS because you reason that "you catch more people with honey than with vinegar", then you should support this move.
I think the second approach will make for more people using OS/FS in the long run, simply because more of them will be exposed to it.
Sure, they're using a proprietary program on top of an OS/FS system, but it's better than a proprietary system on top of a proprietary OS.
The world will be a better place when nongeeks at least know about OS/FS so they can decide if they want to use it or not. Beating someone over the head doesn't work unless that person is already one of the converted.
Re:This is NOT good news for Open Source (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh? And what does Linux need? Only open source programs that are free? Are you saying that people can't make an honest living programming and selling their closed source software? I agree that it sucks that it uses a closed file format, but that's the way it works sometimes. With any luck maybe that format will be opened some day. Does it matter though? They can't be worse than Microsoft who makes it a point to constantly change their formats mainly just to screw everyone else.
Realistically I think you might be comming at this from the wrong angle (as many of us tend to do). What does Linux need? Who cares? They didn't purchase those licences because they neede Linux, they purchaced it because they needed superior software that did what they wanted it to. If Hancom makes a better product and they sell it, then more power to them. I'd like to see more corporations drop their closed source ways too, but right now that's not going to happen, and unless some of these companies start making things for Linux, Linux will be sitting in obscurity for quite some time. If open source alternatives are going to take over, then they must be better products - and unfortunatly right now Star/K office only get "close but no cigar". Right now open source is only making strides because of those products which truley are better, like Apache. Closed source isn't all that great, but right now Linux could probably use a small crutch like this. I mean really, what's the alternative: use MS Office on Windows like every other goverment...
Re:This is NOT good news for Open Source (Score:3, Insightful)
This is the very mentality that is holding Open Source back from total domination. It is the view that free software can only be produced outside of business because there's no money in it. Therefore, as the thinking goes, proprietary software is ok because it produces solutions that people need right now, while free software must wait for volunteers to make slow, steady progress.
The reality is that customers will pay for whatever solution is cheapest and does the best job--whether they are paying for licenses or the labor of free software programmers. It is the fault of Open Source developers for not capitalizing on this to provide themselves an income and allow them to work on their pet projects full-time. There's no need for proprietary licenses whatsoever in this model. Consider this scenario:
Business customer needs software solution X, to be rolled out in 6 months.
Seller A will provide X by means of licenses for $2 million, plus extra for priority support services as needed. New versions of X with cost future licenses fees. Customizations will also cost extra.
Seller B will provide X by negotiating a contract for a complete solution: provision of all software, support services, and desired customizations, for $1.5 million. All new versions of X are free. Seller B ensures that customer's needs are met precisely and in time for the rollout date. Customer is treated as a peer in the development cycle, resulting in more personal service and higher quality software.
A is proprietary solution provider, B is Open Source. The choice is obvious, given that geeks will get off their respective arses and bring B into fruitful existance instead of moping around complaining that there's no money in free software blah blah blah.
Linux can flourish where labor is cheap (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a parallel in the construction industry. In US, labor is more expensive in comparison to construction materials than in, say, Mexico. In the US, construction uses as many prefabricated, pre-assembled components as possible in order to minimize on-site labor. It's cost effective to manufacture, stock and transport a large variety of pre-fab parts to minimize on-site assembly. In contrast, where labor is cheap in comparison to materials, you find that it's more common to bring raw-materials on-site and create what you need from them, since it's cheaper to pay a skilled laborer to do it as-needed rather.
The same thing applies to software. It does suprise me that countries like Korea and China like Linux where having skilled on-site talent is more cost-effective than paying large license fees to MS.
Re:Linux can flourish where labor is cheap (Score:5, Informative)
Your point is well taken though.
Re:Linux can flourish where labor is cheap (Score:2)
This is why I recommend Linux where appropriate for developing countries who might be able to get a licence for, say, Microsoft Back Office on the back of a World Bank loan, but who can not then afford to keep it up to date.
It's all a communist plot! (Score:2, Troll)
My that'll be drafty.
This of course points only to the evil cabal of insulation manufacturers, electricity generators, and natural gas producers, all of whom will clearly benefit by the transition from hermetic glass membranes to the newer & not yet proven cd-rom membrane technology.
Thank god I live in America, where you can pry the Windows from my warm, vibrant home over my dead body!
:)
Great for the Community (Score:2, Interesting)
How about.... (Score:3, Insightful)
The excess money can go to pay for a real service, like to employ free software programmers.
Support (Score:2, Informative)
On the other hand, it is possible that some of the Korean-language stuff is proprietary, so they must buy per-seat licenses.
Or it could be that the Korean beurocracy is in the habit of buying one copy per machine, even if they don't have to.
Linux distros are not free (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Linux distros are not free (Score:2)
All Linux distros contain Free Software (i.e. at least the Linux kernel), which licenses by definition do not allow the distributor to restrict the rights of users to make and even distribute as many copies of the Free Software in the distro as they wish.
So the distro can charge for media, can forbid distribution of non-free portions of the distribution and can even arrange pricing on a per-seat basis (although I think this must imply support or implementation services -- they cannot forbid their customers from making copies or performing multiple installations), but every user of every distro can freely copy and redistribute all the GPL, LGPL, BSD, and other Free Software contained in it.
Just remember the simple rule -- if you didn't write the software, you can't impose limits on its distribution. Since Free Software authors expressly remove the limits on copying and distribution, distros can't reimpose those limits.
Re:Linux distros are not free (Score:2)
That only applies to GPL and LGPL because they, as you said, explictly limit imposable limits by their distributers. You can limit distribution of a derivative work of a BSD licenced, X licenced, public domain and perhaps other "free software" licenced software. In any case, many distos contain a lot of code which is not explicity GPLed (like install scripts.) That is enough to make them non-copyable freely.
But this really is not the point, a distro can be made of all free components (but not all GPLed components) and still be copy restricted. Think of it as a novel, none of the words contained in it are commercial, but the novel is a new entity in by its wholeness. The confusion arises from GPL's being free and enforcing derivative work to be avaliable freely; these two things are not interchangeable. Your simple rule is wrong, a collection of things as a whole is not same thing as individual things lumped together.
Re:120,000 copies? (Score:2)
Each user gets some kind of printed documentation.
Each user gets some nice looking CDs.
Each user gets a phone number with maybe a bit of handholding and support behind it.
The vendor gets some funding.
This is being bought for "users" not "hackers".
Re:120,000 copies? (Score:2)
I mean, besides the many ways you can script the installation process, there's certainly ways that you can image the completed installation and just copy that image to all machines with the same hardware configuration.
And yes, it can be done easily and relatively cheaply. I used to work for a consulting firm that used this process to upgrade about 3000 machines at one company over just a few weekends. Basically identified the different hardware configurations (I think they had about 8), and we ran around with floppies that booted and imaged the machine from a central server (which had a copy made previously from an installation done by hand).
Each floppy was configured to grab a different image from the server (identified by machine model). Each person in our team was responsible for upgrading all machines in one wing of one floor of one of their buildings. When done, a new wing was assigned to be done.
Each machine took about 10-15 minutes to image, but we didn't sit there and wait until they were done. We just identified machine, inserted floppy, move on to next one, then come back later to retrieve the floppy.
All of this was done with Norton Ghost to image a bunch of Windows installations, and it worked wonderfully. I'm sure it can be done just as easily with Linux installations too.
You have to take a different approach. (Score:2)
Actually, it's worth all sysadmins taking a look at that site anyway.
Re:120,000 copies? (Score:2, Funny)
You forgot to factor in the time necessary to open 120K software boxes worth of shrink wrap.
Figures (Score:2)
>are equavalent to 23% of annual Windows based PC procurement
Does anyone else has a problem with the figures in the little section called "About HancomLinux, Inc."
>The company now has more than 90 employees and 4 locations worldwide.
Let's assume that the 90 employees are located in the Republic of Korea and the "more than" are located in the other 3 locations worldwide.
How will they take care for those 120k desktop computers?
(Assuming, they aren't all tech-support, technicians and have other customers...
The spelling at least suggest they have no secretary and spell checker (look who's talking
I smell a job-opportunity
Re:Figures (Score:2)
Re:Excellent, excellent news (Score:2)
Re:Excellent, excellent news (Score:2, Interesting)
Competition is a good thing, but many of the zealots here will go waaayyy out of their way to avoid Microsoft products, even if it costs them (and their employer) a significant amount due to wasted time, effort, poor maintainability, and incompatibility with what the rest of the world is doing. As an employer, I'd fire most of the jackasses I hear spouting this quasi-religious Linux crap. Want to use Linux? Do it on your own time. Don't spend the next 3 weeks, on my nickel, trying to figure out how you can avoid using Word and Excel, replacing them with 3rd rate buggy incompatible not-yet-ready-for-primetime facsimiles.
Re:Excellent, excellent news (Score:2)
Seriously though, it reads to me like you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. Those of us willing to work with a tenth rate OS have at least gotten it to the point of being third rate. Eventually it will get to first rate, just relax, and let us continue developing it.
Re:Why 120,00 Copies? (Score:2, Insightful)
1)Govt. official goes and buys one copy. Makes the required hundreds of copies(there is a huge chunk of time) and then team of people installs hundreds of copies, another huge chunk of time. Now who wants to be the company doing support for these 120000 suddenly gained users?
2)Govt. buys contract for software/manuals/training/support.
Which option is gonna be a pain in the neck, and which option won't?
Re:Why 120,00 Copies? (Score:2, Informative)
Actually 90 can support thousands. (Score:2)
http://www.infrastructures.org/
Ahh, it's probably upgrade time. (Score:2)
Re:Stay out of Bill's way (Score:2)
The Korean government has decided to support a local company, and in the process cut its cost, cut import costs for the country, and set a precedent - maybe other Korean companies will do the same now, and thus cut imports even more whilst boosting the local economy.
Yes, a political choice, but it wouldn't have been made if the software was not up to the task. The only certainty is that Microsoft have most likely lost 120,000 * ~$300 (XP + Office) = $48,000,000 in revenue because of this choice.
Re:what's MS gonna do? (Score:3, Informative)
They will contact their friends in the American government, who will also get mad.
They will be mad because of an infringement on their "sovereignty." Remember that the government considers its trade and communications channels part of its sovereign territory, even if it's outside the borders of the United States.
The protection of the MS monopoly is definitely our sovereign right, when it's construed that way.
Will there be an invasion of Korea? Not likely, but I could see some OS requirements being put into international trade regimes such as the W.T.O.
This is too clumsy to be a troll, so I'm just going to guess that it's almost unbelievably silly. The federal government of the United States does not have any interest in protecting Microsoft's monopoly. The decision of the South Korean government to purchase a product produced by a South Korean company, instead of by an American company, infringes in no way on anybody's sovereignty, and there is nobody in either the United States government nor in Microsoft who considers it to be so.
The United States government does consider its trade and communications part of its sovereignty. It would probably get upset if South Korea, say, banned the sale of American-made software products, because that is bad for trade. That is nowhere near the case here.
This shows what you get when people who honestly believe that corporations directly run the United States government go off the deep end.
Re:what's MS gonna do? (Score:3, Interesting)
Really? Why, then, did the CIA:
overthrow the Iranian democracy and replace it with the shah when the president proposed to nationalize oil (1953)?
overthrow the Guatamalan democracy when the leader nationalized the United Fruit Company's holdings?
assinate Rafael Trujillo, the previously supported dictator of the Dominican Republic when his business interfered with American business?
kill George Papandreous, who refused to bow down to American companies?
assassinate Salvator Allende, democratically elected, and replace him with Pinochet?
and don't give me that bullshit about defending democracy; most of these countries WERE democracies before the CIA got in there; and those who replaced the old governments were much worse than those they replaced in terms of running a police state.
Why do we endorse the IMF and WTO, which, in exchange for much-needed economic aid, undermine democracy to replace it with wishes of the largest companies and richest people in America?
Re:Communists! (Score:2)
However, Karl Marx never defined communism as a political system, but as a relation of production in which the producers have control over the tools necessary for production. That is IMHO exactly what free software does. It prevents the accumulation of software as capital (dead labor) thus guaranteeing access to written software to those who need it in order to write new software. Yep, that's communism. What part of it you don't like?
Re:Communists! (Score:2)
Nope, first, most dot coms never tried to make a buck by selling any product to consumers. Their real business plan was to sell a two-bucks business plan to shrewed bankers who then went and unloaded it in the 401k plans of idiots. New linux dot coms were part of the bubble. Most of them "failed" like everything else, nothing particular about linux here. If you want to understand how this works, go see "The Producers".
Quite a few succeded to survive, including Red Hat and other linux based shops. Obviously, the company that initiated this thread is doing fine.
Besides, the point of free software is not to empower big capitalist firms but flesh and blood producers, i.e. software writers, consultants, sysadmins, etc. People who use software to produce, not people who sell software other people produce. Just because some business idea failed does nothing to undermine the success of free software.
Got a love it. Next time I go to Paris, I am going to wrap up a nice Debian CD in flowers and put it on old Marx's grave. Ha ha ha!
Re:Communists! (Score:2)
I really don't know what you are after. The GPL would prohibits you from certain usages of open source software in your closed source shop. As long as you comply with the GPL, go get rich to your heart's content. I wish you all the best, really.
Re:theKompany (Score:2, Informative)
Re:it might not be so good (Score:2)