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CompTIA Adds Linux+ Certification 140

Posted by timothy from the so-did-linuxgruven dept.
11 platter hard driv writes: "CompTIA (the Computing Technology Industry Association), the people who made the A+ and I-NET+ certifications, have made a Linux certification. I just received an e-mail a day or two ago that the test is out of beta. This seems pretty important seeing how CompTIA is non-vendor specific." Legions of PHBs and Kinko's nationwide look forward to the resulting resume changes.
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CompTIA Adds Linux+ Certification More

CompTIA Adds Linux+ Certification

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  • LPI Anyone? (Score:3, Informative)

    by tarogue ( 84626 ) on Sunday September 30, 2001 @06:54AM (#2370036)
    LPI has been around longer, is also vendor non-specific, and has multiple levels of tests for various degrees of skill.
    • Yes. I wouldn't say that generally any test (same applicable for university diplomas) necessarily certifies very much but I found it very instructive (and in the long run rewarding) to spare some days for "purposeless" (as opposed to: "I have to get that damn thing running now") browsing through some HOWTOs and manpages.

      The readable (exception: objective 2) O'Reilly book on Level I could serve as course material for any linux instructors.

      Level II is calling for beta testers [lpi.org] at the moment.

  • I took the beta... (Score:3, Informative)

    by cansecofan22 ( 62618 ) on Sunday September 30, 2001 @06:54AM (#2370037) Homepage
    The test was a lot easier than the SAIR cert tests of the same level(Install and Config and Sys. Admin) but there were a lot more hardware specific questions (SCSi, LVD, RAID, Fibre Channel, Hard Disks, Video Cards, etc). I guess that is from there A+ people, maybe. I have not yuet recieved my results from the Beta exam but I am 99% sure I passed it. It is nice to see that a major certification company like CompTia has a linux certification for people to get. I have the SAIR cert but I thik this one will help a little more when I leave the military and go looking for a Linux (or Unix) sysadmin job.

    • Beta Sucked (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      (Hey look, posting anonymously is good for something, since the following is probably not what comptia wants folks to say....)

      I took the beta exam too, and found it hideously terrible. For a significant portion of the questions, several of the pick-one multiple-choice answers were actually correct -- and for another large portion, none of them were.

      I'm pretty sure I passed too, but if I didn't, it reflects worse on them than it does on me. The beta exam provided the opportunity to comment on each question, which I did liberally. I sincerely hope that the final version fixes all the problems, but I'm not holding my breath.

  • First glance (Score:3, Informative)

    by term0r ( 471206 ) on Sunday September 30, 2001 @07:03AM (#2370039)
    At first glance this seems to be a fairly basic-ish certification as the course is aimed at the Linux Professional with 6 months of experience with the Linux Operating System, but after looking at it further it covers a lot of different area's. These seem to include installation, xwindows, planning systems and all the basic linux services. One very surprising thing is that so little of the marking schedule is based on Planning the Implmentation (only 4%), I would have thought a lot more should be based on this, as this would be a valuable skill.

    Overall its good seeing a course which is aimed at linux as a whole, instead of one distribution, and is also something that I would have the skills to complete myself.

  • Is it just me... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Corrado ( 64013 )
    ...or are these kinds of tests not worth the paper their written on? I really think it's funny when someone says to me "Yea, I just got my MCSE" and they think I'll be impressed. Usually, I just laugh and say something about knowing how to study to a test. In fact, when looking for a job I usually avoid the ones advertising for someone with one of these "degrees". I think real world experience is the only way to be good at this stuff. Sure, learning is never bad but I think these programs just put more unquallified people on the streets. This dillutes my marketability. I don't like that.

    Now that I've said all that, I think there are/were some really good tests on the market. Cisco engineer and Netware engineer are/were some of the certs that I really respected. But, you don't see those much anymore. I guess it's because they are too hard to get. :)
    • No, but actualy cosidering the degree of ignorance about computers and operating systems six months of OTJ expirience is a lot more than most people get in six years!
      In linux a lot of things are hard, in a MS os it's either easy (point &amp: click) or almost impossible, but this is changing rapidly. I just set up NFS on the home network basical by doing exactaly what the HOWTO said, there is noway I think I'm qualified to do this Professionaly. The test covers things that I would never enable/config on a professional network because of pervasive security problems. It probably would have been better to seperate out some things like Email, FTP and HTTP stuff to a seperate exam endorsement.
      On a lot of these exams it seems that perhaps making money for the certifing orf and the instructors is more important than testing for valuable skills.

      • Re:Is it just me... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by baptiste ( 256004 ) <mike@ba[ ]ste.us ['pti' in gap]> on Sunday September 30, 2001 @08:35AM (#2370087) Homepage Journal
        I just set up NFS on the home network basical by doing exactaly what the HOWTO said, there is noway I think I'm qualified to do this Professionaly.

        Actually, by doing exactly that, you're more qualified than many. I'd much rather have one of my system admins be able to admit they don't know how to do something, know where to look to learn, and then have the overall computing background to understand an implement the steps of a HOWTO, etc. Heck, even the best system admin doesn't know everything. Most tend to specialize in certain areas (filesystems, I/O, Raid/LVM, applications, etc) By that I mean they REALLY understand how to setup certain types of things, but in other areas they need to look stuff up. I've been administering systems for years - and you still hit situations where you have to research some stuff.

        Sysadmins, no matter how good, don't know how to do everything off the top of their head. THose that think they do are dangerous because you risk having them screw up something major. A good sys admin is one who is savvy enough to be dropped in front of a system they have never used before and using their overall computing experieince and available reference material - figure out how to set it up or enable some feature while at the same time knowing their limits and knowing if they are treading in an area of the system where they can do real damage - at that point someone who takes the time to research what their about to do online or by asking for help is much better than the person who just lows ahead and screws up.

        So gon't sell yourself short. If you think passing a test would qualify you to deploy stuff on a network securely, you're dangerous. A good sysadmin may knwo how to deploy a system in a fairly secure manner, but a great sysadmin will know how to test for anything he/she missed and know where to look to make sure they didn't miss anything.

        I've been adminsitering systems since I graduated from college both at work and at home - and I learn something almost ever day. Stuff keep schanging so fast you can't possibly stay current just studying for a test :)

        • You are 100% correct. The guy who sets up NFS at home, and plays with various things, generally has a BETTER chance of being hired if I interview him than the guy who juust took a linux course last weekend because he heard it's a new buzzword.

          If you do that kind of stuff at home, dont' sell yourself short on what you know.. you'd probably find you know quite a bit MORE than most who just learn through certification/courses.

          And you are so right about sysadmins being dangerous....

          I'll say. it took many years before I really realized that I could be confident in my own knowledge. As you say.. there are always areas you don't know anything about because you've never had to work with them before... but as a sysadmin.. you have to be general.

        • I agree with you 100%. Being a good sys admin is like being a lawyer: you're not taught every laugh in law school, but you are taught how to find and apply the case law that is relevent to case you're working on. Particularly on extremely complex network OSes like UNIX, linux, Win2K, etc... I think it would be damn near impossible to have an encylopedic knowledge of they work and the syntax of every command you may need at one time or another. A good sys admin has the fundamentals down cold, knows how to do the fancier stuff required of him in his job and knows how to get answers to the tough stuff that comes up. It's one thing to know how to run your network as it is today, but a good sys admin will know how to be able to run the network as it will be in the future as the company's needs dictate.

          Chris
        • A good sys admin is one who is savvy enough to be dropped in front of a system they have never used before and using their overall computing
          experieince and available reference material - figure out how to set it up or enable some feature while at the same time knowing their limits and knowing if they are
          treading in an area of the system where they can do real damage - at that point someone who takes the time to research what their about to do online or by asking for help
          is much better than the person who just lows ahead and screws up.

          AMEN Brother! This only comes from expierience (doing this stuff at home or hobby is as valuable as the guy that got paid for it, just call it freelance and never say you did it at home)
          I have in the other divisions of the company I work for MCSE's abound, I do not have and refuse to get a MCSE as they are worthless. I am constantly bailing out the MCSE when things get tough, or using SQL or even when they have to deal with any of the Mpeg insertion equipment that run's NT3.11.. "where's my computer or network neighborhood?" is asked by these MCSE's.

          The important skills that are needed in IT/IS today cannot be learned or certified. and that makes certifications worthless.
          • Funny, couldn't agree more. I'm a Unix guy who donates my time to adminster a win98/2k network for a nonprofit. I've found that I can do anything for them I need to, given enough time and books (which is my nominal compensation, a stack of MCSE books) - it's not a question of knowing exactly "what", but of understanding how to figure out "what".
      • In linux a lot of things are hard, in a MS os it's either easy (point &: click) or almost impossible...

        That's a good insight.

        Microsoft has a passion for for "wizards", which handle the common cases reasonably but aren't too useful when the starting system state is ill-defined. (UNIX people have a similar concept, called the "shell script".) Both suffer from a design concept which involves modifying a state the tools don't fully understand.

        The real problem is that system administration is typically an add-on to a system, not a designed-in feature. And it shows. The Windows world accrues registry entries (and even the registry was an add-on), while the UNIX world accrues text files in "/etc". In neither case are programs available which can read in the system state and diagnose all inconsistencies.

    • And don't forget braindumps. Everyone who can read is getting and MCSE so they can earn $75,000 on their first job with no experience. MS said they will get rid of braindumps with the Windows 2000 cert, but MCSE Braindumps [mcsebraindumps.com] is alive and well. MCSE is nothing more than a free sales force.

      Even Cisco is feeling the heat of competition. My last month at my old job I didn't have anything to do. So I decided to get a CCNA. Did it without ever touching a router And the practice tests I used had 10 questions straight from the real exam.

      Now I'm learning Linux. This is what Linux needs, a good known cert. It needs to have it's holders know enough to be dangerous. Then you need to start pumpimg out people with that cert to act as a free sales force for linux. It worked for MS back in the NT days.

      As far as knowledge, Cisco was pretty good. Their questions were straight to the point of the material covered. Microsoft questions were a guessing game. Some questions you had to read into it and make assumptions. Other times if you read into it you got it wrong. And then of course some of their answers are to upgrade to windows 2000 to use TCP/IP. Other questions try to get you into the MS way of doing things with MS Windows features even though there are better products available that people use. Examples are routing, back up, RAID software.

      • >> This is what Linux needs, a good known cert. It needs to have it's holders know enough to be dangerous.

        I agree. Now clueless business owners who heard that "Linux is free" will hire Linux+ people to try it in their business. After all, he/she is certified and knows what he/she is doing, right?

        The first time the shit hits the fan, the business decides Linux is too immature and difficult to maintain for his/her business. This may be true for his/her business, but you can't necessarily expect a Linux+ certified person be able to administer Linux effectively.

        However, I think it is good in showing that you have an open mind and are willing to "do what it takes" to learn other technologies as needed, rather than relying on your University education that taught you VB and Windows is all you ever need...

    • Re:Is it just me... (Score:5, Informative)

      by mindstrm ( 20013 ) on Sunday September 30, 2001 @10:15AM (#2370203)
      Having done some entry-level IT hiring in the past.. let me tell you about certifications.

      They ARE useful... in a way. When I'm looking at a resume for an entry-level IT person who can come in and start taking some load off me for more 'simple' tasks... fixing PC's, helping clients, doing some network cabling.. etc....
      Obviously, someone with experience is what I want. But... few people with experience fit the bill.. they are too senior, don't want that junior job.
      Now.. if someone says they have A+.. I know I can tell them to open up a computer and add some ram and they won't go 'Hunh? What's that?'. Oh.. they may still have questions about what kind of ram... but at least they understand what's going on.

      Ever heard how, In karate, the black-belt, aside from simply holding your pants up, symbolizes 'the beginning'. The same could be said of most certifications such as A+, N+, this new linux one, etc. They are a beginning, not an end.
      If you had that linux certification, and no other experience, I would consider you for an entry-level linux job.. if I interviewed you and thought you had the brains for the particular job.

      That's ALL they are... there are two things I really hate.
      1) The classes tend to prepare people into thinking they now know everything, and are ready to take top-level jbos. This is especially true of MCSE, not so much of A+/N+/etc.
      2) Employers and shops like to brag about their certified employees... 'All our technicians are A+ certified'.

      Really.. I guess I'm saying that.. these certifications are a good entry into the business, but no more.

      CCIE... the reason you respect that is because it's not a certification you can just go out, do a bit of studying, and get in a weekend if you know nothing. IT was designed to certify experts in internetworking. I looked at it a couple years ago.. the routing & Switching one. I know a LOT about TCP/IP... I've been doing fairly detailed stuff for about 9 years... and I knew about 80% of the IP section, which was only about 40% of the whole test. (if memory serves). It's hard.. so if someone actually passes CCIE, then that proves they DO know something. It's like a PH.D in networking.
  • These new certificates will help a lot to counter the stigma some people perceive regarding linux.
    Maybe the IT management community (yes, those who think that 'hackers' are criminals who vandalise computers, rather than prolific and talented programmers) will start to realise that Linux isn't actually a bastion for pirates and crackers.

    Good to see.
    So any bets on how long it'll be before linux-certified engineers are earning higher average salaries than w--dows certified ones?

    • So any bets on how long it'll be before linux-certified engineers are earning higher average salaries than w--dows certified ones?

      Interesting concept, I'd say working with free software and demanding more money is kind of a contradiction in terms. Out moneying everyone will involve proving that we're just plain smarter than the windows types - a process that doesn't phase most /.-ers but still requires time.

      My bet is March of 2003. There is a pool going, right?
      • Out-moneying everyone would strengthen the case against open source that it does cost more in the long run.

        What you really want to do is earn more per hour, but have to do less work overall. The company wins (Only need one sys-admin to to the job of two), you win (you earn more money doing less work), open source wins (because it get's proved as a better sort of software).And of course, all that extra time could be used devloping more software!

        So the question is, which system requires more on-hand work?

  • Well Yippie (Score:4, Interesting)

    by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Sunday September 30, 2001 @07:15AM (#2370043) Journal
    Looks like the hiring teams no longer need to actually find out how well you know your stuff, only if you have a piece of paper that says you do.

    I'm just as happy as everyone else that Linux is getting more recognition, but I've seen too many people with A+, N+, CCNA, CNA, MCP certifications and Masters Degrees in CS, comming to me to actually learn the first thing about computers, to put any faith in any certifications, and I'm quite disturbed by the fact that many employers do.

    Does anybody know of any real certifications out there that tests your skills, rather than your ability to memorize test questions?

    • Re:Well Yippie (Score:3, Informative)

      by cansecofan22 ( 62618 )
      The RHCE by Red Hat and the CCIE by Cisco are both lab based exams where you have to do actual hands on work to earn the certification.

    • Re:Well Yippie (Score:2, Redundant)

      by mindstrm ( 20013 )
      What should an employer put some faith in then? How do you chose to hire someone?

      I agree.. you shouldn't hire based on certification alone... especially for serious jobs... but that's why experience usually always wins over education... so don't worry.

      A Masters degree in CS doesn't necessarily have anything at all to do with normal IT work.
      A+, N+, CCNA, CNA, MCP.. are all 'entry level' certifications. All they should tell you is that the person is familiar with the material covered. by no means an expert. If you say you have a switch, they sort of know what that is.....

      The problem is that some treat certifications as the 'end of the road' for learning.. not the beginning of the journey, as it should be.
      Let me compare it to.. a diving certification.
      You go out and get your PADI Open-Water Diver certification. This qualifies you to dive in normal conditions down to about.. I forget.. 60 feet max, in open water. Now.. just because you are certified, does NOT make you an expert diver.. it just means that some professionals have decided you know enough to dive safely under those conditions.

      After hundreds of dives.. and more study.. you may someday be a Divemaster.... many certifications later... which means you've done hundreds of dives, and are an expert diver, so much that you can take responsibility for helping others out on a dive.. etc.

      A+, CNA, etc... are like the Open Water certification... they are a beginning.

      Aside from the CCIE (Cisco Certified Internetworking Expert) certifications... I can't think of any certifications that actually test experts. CCIE definately does (unless it's changed.. I know they split it into three different exams now... but each field has grown as well.. so...). Unless you are some kind of prodigy, you don't study for a weekend and pass CCIE.. you have to know a LOT about a LOT to pass it.

      Other than that.. certifications.. don't worry about it! Work experience is everything. If you get the chance to go for liek a weekend firewall course or something... on the company, to get 'certified' on something.. go for it, won't hurt..
      but nobody will be questioning a few years experience wondering 'but you don't have an A+!'

      If you have experience, and a company really wants all their techs a+ certified.. they'll send you to the course themselves.

      • Re:Well Yippie (Score:2, Informative)

        by spanky555 ( 148893 )
        Mmmm, maybe they won't say that about an A+ cert, but I've heard it about the CPD (Certified PowerBuilder Developer) a few years back. My placement firm set me up with an interview at a potential client. During the interview, I talked to two team leads, then the PM. The PM said that "well, we don't normally hire folks that don't have a CPD". At that point, I had approximately 4.5 solid years experience doing PowerBuilder.

        If you don't know what PowerBuilder is, it has many similarities to VB. The major differences are it's edge on doing client/server apps (better db stuff) and it implements OO slightly better. But it's very, very simple compared to something like C or C++...almost any old poseur can at least look productive with it. So I was quite amazed at this arrogance and stupidity on the client's part. Other than that, I know the client was a reasonably good place to work. So you can never tell when someone might be looking for those things.
    • What does CS have to do with System Administration or computer setup and OS installation? Very little if anything. The CS majors who do have a clue in this regards usually do it on the side so they can get *work done*. It's probably also why UNIX is still really popular in CS departments as you can get to the nitty gritty of the OS without worrying about vendor-specific API's and the like. But, please notice, it's not that they're stupid, it's that administration is NOT what they studied in college. MIS != CS. I mean, shit, dude, why quit working on your intelligent agent thesis to administrate the server? That's what the IT lackeys are for...

      • You underestimate my complaint. I know CS majors who do not know how to download a file. (Yes, I mean that literally). I don't expect Network Admins to come out of CS, but the ability to Copy & Paste should be mandatory.
    • Does anybody know of any real certifications out there that tests your skills, rather than your ability to memorize test questions?

      That's what an interview is for. I'm sorry to say there is no substitute for a good interview, especially when your pool of applicants are fresh out of school with little or no experience. A certification will weed out the completely computer illiterate, and it is certainly not a minus on a resume, but if you want good people you have to devote some resources to a good interview program for new candidates.

    • Except for the CS degree, those are all entry-level certifications. For network administrators, I would look for CNE or MCSE certs, depending on what platform you were looking for of course. If I were hiring someone into a position where I expected them to learn and grow, I would hire someone with A+, MCP, or the like.. but to think that someone with an MCP is going to lead your enterprise migration from VMS is ridiculous..

      MCSE and CNE are good certifications I think, just due to the sheer number of tests you need to take. For an MCSE with no previous MS certification, you need 7 tests under your belt. MCSE+I is 9. You don't just go out one day and say "I think I'll get an MCSE.." It's a big career move, and a huge committment. You will need to get recertified periodically, and it does cost money to study and take the tests. There are enough tests in the series to weed out people who aren't truly committed to learning.

      I think certification is important depending on what you want. It's only one piece of the puzzle, and you certainly need to look for real-world experience and a demonstrated ability to learn and adapt. But if I were looking for someone whose job would mainly be to troubleshoot LaserJets, HP certification is the first thing I'd require!

  • linux is an OS? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by SafeMode ( 11547 )
    So it's vender neutral. So that means it's only about the kernel because linux is not an OS. It's just the kernel. The OS can be anything. Maybe it should be renamed gnu/linux+. Does it cover PDA versions of "linux" or any of the numerous other implimentations of "linux" ? If it's truly vender specific then it is only about the kernel because everything else around it is chosen by the vender. "linux" is not like Windows. So, now that we've decided it's only about the kernel, what kind of kernel is it about? There are many branches of the linux kernel being developed concurrently for different purposes. So lets assume they mean linus' branch. What exactly would someone with 6 months experience know about the kernel and how it works? More importantly, what job would require this certification of 6 month kernel knowledge? I know I'd want someone with a hell of a lot more experience with the kernel than 6 months if the job required that person to work on the kernel.

    No this is not a case of symantics. When you say linux we're used to thinking about the distributions of debian, redhat, suse, slackware. But that is not linux. Linux is a kernel that can be used on any number of different operating system environments and it is on embedded systems and what not. A certification of "linux+" is misleading to any employer if any employer was stupid enough to rely on such a thing. If you're going to certify someone for an operating system, narrow it down to the damn operating system. A vender neutral gnu/linux+ is what they're talking about. That's not the same as embedded linux experience or experience with linux with any other environment.
    change the certification to gnu/linux+ certification and it kind of makes sense and is useable. But trying to certify on all linux-based OS's by just having linux+ certification is not only impossible but totally useless.
    Also, why dont they have WindowsNT+ or any other OS certifications? those are much more static and set in their specifications of what comprises the OS.

  • Yet another difficulty with hiring situations . . (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mjprobst ( 95305 ) on Sunday September 30, 2001 @08:07AM (#2370067) Homepage Journal
    Even in the situations where they claim to be testing one's abilities, they're more often testing one's abilities to spit back a memorized answer from one particular system, where a 5-minute period of time with the manuals or actual system, without any destructive actions, could bring about the same result.


    I have memory difficulties but have never failed to figure out a *N*X box after being placed in front of it, or in front of its 20' of manuals. Within a week of starting work in a *N*X shop I've always become a valued expert resource for the team, even on systems I'd never seen before starting the job.


    But in this economy the smarts in the hiring department were shoved aside, because so much of the boom-time workforce was full of people who claimed "No problem, I can just learn that" without being able to deliver. Right now, those of us whose learning/execution style leans towards pattern recognition and understanding of the architecutre are getting the short end of the stick, because they want to ask a few poorly-worded, poorly-constructed test questions that supposedly boil down everything one would know. I've even caught some of them not knowing their _expected_ correct answer was not _really_ a correct answer!


    Of course there are some environments in which this won't cut it. Hiring just _one_ person to be at the head of a support structure for a given vendor's *N*X is one example, that person should have enough background to answer from memory immediately. But even things so simple as filesystem mounting is different between vendors, and in 95% of the cases the differences between in-house policies at different companies are much more important than what particular commands/files are used on one vendor's system.


    Nice to see that the problem-solving and architecture-understanding skills have been stomped out of the market, in favor people who can emulate a raw keyword search through a textfile.

    • That's a fairly accurate description of how corporate hiring, and even much small business, does things in areas of high-tech. Part of the problem is that people responsible for determining who can do the job don't have enough high-tech background of their own to really understand who has the smarts and who just says they do. <ramble>And too often these hiring managers toss out resumes of smart people, then whine to the government that "no one qualified even applied for the job" to try to get more H1Bs to come into the country, take our paychecks, and mail them back to their own country, depriving our retail businesses of a lot of their revenues.</ramble>

      • get more H1Bs to come into the country, take our paychecks, and mail them back to their own country, depriving our retail businesses of a lot of their revenues.

        Well, surely the employer has the right to employ whoever they like? Maybe the foreign worker is not as qualified as you ( and that's in your opinion :) ), but provides the employer with a better price/performance ratio.

        Apparently, globalization of economies is good only as long as it opens up foreign markets to American companies; as soon as the people from there start taking advantage of a globalized job market too, it is time for you to rant, isn't it? How about trying to learn some skills that distinguish you from the rest of the pack? But maybe whining is easier than competing.

        The people who do come in are not exactly burger-flippers. For the most part, they are reasonably educated in their discipline. Sure, some of them send money back to their countries, but they also buy cars and homes and stuff from "our retail businesses". Nobody's taking "your" paycheck - they have taken a big step to leave their homes and come here to work for it. Go do something worthwhile instead of crying - you were lucky to be born in the land of opportunity, learn how to live in it.
  • I think this is going to be both good and bad, in the same way that it's been both good and bad for Microsoft.

    Granted, this is going to create an army of mindless zombies claiming that their new certification makes them experts in the field. Which is exactly what happened with the MCSE, etc. The market saturation is going to drive down the average pay for the average Linux professional, but it will also be proof that knowledge in Linux is important.

    In Salt Lake City, everyone has their MCSE, so jobs that previously paid $40k/year for that certification now pay just over half that. It's become a worthless exam around here. But as a result, it's almost impossible to find a *nix job anywhere. It's even harder for us Perl hackers.

    If exams like the RHCE and Linux+ start saturating the market with "professionals", it's going to start edging on Microsoft's market share, but at the same cost that Microsoft has paid.

  • A good analogy I use.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mindstrm ( 20013 ) on Sunday September 30, 2001 @10:30AM (#2370225)
    I came up with this one today.. so sorry I posted it elsewhere already.. but..

    I liken A+, N+, this new Linux certification, and those like them (MCSE even)... to the PADI Open Water Diver certification.

    For those not familiar.. scuba diving is a self-regulated industry. There is generally no law that says you can't dive.. but a dive shop won't sell you tanks, or gear, or sell you air if you don't present a certification. They COULD.... but they won't. Wanna go on vacation to go diving? In general, a dive expedition won't take you out if you aren't certified. Oh.. they can make exceptions... but you get the idea.

    You study for several hours.. take a few classes, do some practice diving, and then get run through some tests to get your certification.
    Now.. NOBODY who takes the PADI Open-Water certification an passes would come out of it thinking 'I AM NOW AN EXPERT DIVER'. And that's the problem... with N+, MCSE, etc.. people come out of them thinking 'I AM NOW AN EXPERT'. That's what bothers us.. isn't it? It's not that they took it because they want to get int ot his business, and come to their new job willing to learn and grow.. it's because they tend to show up thinking 'I'm certified, I know it all.. nya nya'. And of course.. they don't.

    • Of course, with PADI Open Water Diver certification, there's a strong disincentive to considering one self an expert. I've never taken any classes for PADI, but I imagine it to be similar to learning to fly. If the instruction doesn't pound it into the initiate's head that they are not an expert, reality will rush up and remind the individual. Otherwise they may well find themselves booted right out of the gene pool.

      Unfortunately, no such disincentive exists with MCSE, A+, N+, etc...

      I think it's a good analogy to use, and I'll have to try to remember it the next time our PHBs get it in their heads that we (at work) should be all certified; it's a starting-point, where the individual meets the bare-minimum requirements. The rest takes time. Lots of time.

      • Unfortunately, no such disincentive exists with MCSE, A+, N+, etc...

        Are you sure? What do you call CodeRed, Nimba? :)For me when i hear of big companies (like Compaq for one here in Aus) having their mail/web systems down because 'someone' didnt do their job and patch those systems, i *hope* that one of those (us) pesky managers stops to think; "Why werent we protected??"...

        With the IT employment sector as it is right now, im happy in the knowledge that when my company needs a new Techie (as we will soon) we have a vast pool of applicants to sift through.

        You would be supprised how quickly companies 'get a clue', maybe 18 months ago when hiring an Administrator the 1st problem was finding one, now its very different, and many Managers may not know jack about IT, but they know exactly what they need done! It is really common knowledge (for a manager) that experience counts!
    • people come out of them thinking 'I AM NOW AN EXPERT'.

      That's a huge generalization. From my experience its 'this will help me get a job/make me look more qualified' not necessarily suddenly gaining guru status.

      I know its clever on Slashdot to knock certifications but this is way out of line. Passing a test is simply that: passing a test. Regardless, even if someone had some kind of ego boost they will shortly be put in their place when they can't perform on the job like someone with 10 years experience.

  • Slashdot certification? (Score:3, Funny)

    by Ed Avis ( 5917 ) <ed@membled.com> on Sunday September 30, 2001 @10:31AM (#2370230) Homepage
    Can you get Slashdot certified? What exams would you have to pass?

    • Re:Slashdot certification? (Score:4, Funny)

      by AnalogBoy ( 51094 ) on Sunday September 30, 2001 @12:10PM (#2370432) Journal
      Core Requirements for /.+:

      Test /.-001: Microsoft Bashing
      Test /.-002: /.-style grammar and spelling.
      Test /.-003: General Fanaticism
      Test /.-004: Slashborg Membership
      Test /.-005: GNU Zealotism

      Electives:

      Test /.-E01A: Defending Jon Katz
      Test /.-E01B: Flaming Jon Katz
      Test /.-E02: Common Sense
      Test /.-E03: General Knowledge
      Test /.-E04: Passing off assumptions as legal advice.
      Test /.-E05: Sleeping with the enemy
      Test /.-E06: Karma Whoring
      Test /.-E07: Anonymous Cowarding, Goatse, etc.
      Test /.-E08: Intelligent Insults
      Test /.-E09: Inflicting the /. Effect for fun and profit
      Test /.-E10: Whining

      Must take the core + up to 3 electives to pass. Passing score on any elective is 20%. Minimum passing score for the core is 99%

  • I'm an A+ certified "professional" (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ColGraff ( 454761 ) <maron1&mindspring,com> on Sunday September 30, 2001 @10:34AM (#2370234) Homepage Journal
    And I have to say, the certification is crap. Utter crap. Allow me to elaborate.

    I started studying for the exam way back in early 2000. I bought a book (the "For Dummies" book, for chrissakes!) and skimmed through it. For various reasons, I didn't get around to taking the exam until July of this year. By then, the test had changed, including manmy questions about Win2K, third-party processors, and a much greater emphasis on trivia than I had been lead to expect. I had not studied for any of these things.

    Furthermore, the things I had spent the most time cramming (IRQs and DMAs, mainly) were not on the exam. At all.

    So I'm sitting there at the test machine, slowly realizing two things. One, I have never seen any of thses questions before in my life. And two, it doesn't matter, anyone with a bit of experience (NOT six months as a computer tech, much less) could answer these questions. I can't remember a specific example, for which I apologize, but even in areas where I had NO experience, I was able to get by by choosing the "least-worst" answer.

    I passed the exam, and that is meaningless. I freely admit, as a tech I am very green. At my summer tech job, my boss had to correct me after I put an IDE cable in a hard drive with the red stripe facing AWAY from the power connector! That's a pretty basic mistake, and one you wouldn't expect a "professional, experienced computer technician" to make. But at the time, I had a card in my pocket saying I was exactly that!

    My point? I cannot speak for any of the other CompTIA exams - maybe they are incisive and highly effective tools of tester skill that only the best of the best can pass, tests that lay one's ignorance open to the blistering light of knowledge - but the A+ exam does not achieve its goal of accurately evaluating the experience and skill of the test-taker. This makes me worry about Linux+. Do we really want a bunch of Linux+ professionals entering the job market, and making Linux look bad?

    On a side note, I have successfully used my certification card to impress attractive women. Anyone else find these things useful?
    • hey, I'm A+ certified and my card dosn't seem to be impressing any women, or at least not attractive ones. So yeah, useless.
      • Mainly by lying. Tell stories about how you got the card - spending hours disassembling computers to learn the answers to questions, family traditions about computers - you know, emotional stuff. Women dig that, supposedly.

        I do apologize, however. I shouldn't have left my statement as it was - it implies that the card alone, without a backstory, is enough to impress women. You use the card to intrigue women ("Hey, what's that?") then tell your story. Make it good.

        And remember: Knowledge is power. Power is an aphrodisiac. Therefor, your A+ cert. card has the potential for - interesting - applications.

        Yes, this is all tongue-in-cheek.
    • At my summer tech job, my boss had to correct me after I put an IDE cable in a hard drive with the red stripe facing AWAY from the power connector! That's a pretty basic mistake


      There's no law saying pin 1 is closest to the powerconnector. It's usually the case, but I've seen drives where it's not. I look for the little '1' on the board :)

    • I've attached the red stripe on the wrong side before, and it worked. That's because I attached it on the wrong side on the other end of the cable, too. Fortunately it was a non-polarized connector, so I could do this. The reason I did it was because of the way the cable was made. By reversing it, I avoided having to twist the wires back around, which was making the cable too short to fit. You can't do this for floppy cables, though, due to the asymmetric twist (there's 4 ways to plug those in, and 3 of them are wrong).

  • Brainbench? (Score:2, Informative)

    by shibboleth ( 228942 )
    How seriously do folks take the brainbench.com cert's? Just wondering because I'm about to start taking their tests.

    That site has ~5 linux cert's. They can be passed via a ~50min, $25 online exam. The tests are open book with 2min to complete each question. The employer can verify it was really you that took an exam by giving you another version of the test downloadable by employers for free.
    • They seem to be pretty well recieved. When I went looking for programming work (didn't find it) recruiters (satan spawns) did care that I had them. The tests aren't easy just because they are online, but that is why they are creditable.
    • Back when Brainbench was free, I took and passed "C++" and "security". I wasn't impressed with either test. The C++ test seems to be oriented towards former COBOL programmers writing user interfaces for database applications in C++.
      There are questions about "object-oriented user interfaces", and mapping database objects to C++ objects, neither of which are language issues.
      That's a narrow application, and, in fact, one better done in Perl, Java or Visual Basic in a corporate environment.
      I also found several typos in the test.


      The tests are timed, and the site is slow; you can miss questions because the Brainbench site can't keep up.


      I could see using Brainbench as a filter to get rid of bozo applicants, but no more.

    • I've found the BrainBench open-book exams much more difficult than the CompTIA or MCP exams that I've taken. While the MCP and CompTIA exams have their place, there are always a few "statistics" or "memorization" questions on the exams. Remember a number, remember what the number is related to, answer the question because you crammed for a week.

      BrainBench obviously can not use these types of questions, because anybody with a broadband connection and a general knowledge of where the best information is found can use the time limit to answer those questions. The same can be said for people who have reference books with well-labeled indexes for fast searching by hand.

      They get around this problem by having the vast majority of their questions surround concepts and situations. There are VERY few questions which can quickly be referenced, and those that can be referenced will usually lead to an entire section/page, which must be quickly gleaned over for the correct answer, and probably contains at least one of the other answers available. This forces you to end up guessing anyway if you don't know the answer, even though you could find the correct answer given another 5 minutes of time to read.

      For those who want to measure their value, or HR departments who wish to quickly determine a subject's "BS" vs. "Truth" factor, a good pop-quiz from BrainBench is a quick, cheap and efficient solution.
    • Maybe Linus could ace it but the Linux Admin test, i found out, is certainly not in the joke category.

      Their cert prep ($20) i found to be helpful and enjoyable (matches my study style) but (as is only legitimate) there is no re-use and little overlap of the prep questions w/ the actual test. The area of coverage, though, is the same.
  • They don't make someone an expert. But, If I bring someone on my team with a MCSE I expect them to be able to do a certain baseline of functions. For example, add users, put machines in the domain, understand WINS at a decent level, etc, etc. The MCSE has a bad rap because there is no "expert level" certification. They need one, bad.

    Look at Cisco. They now have a layered certification system. Their final level, the CCIE, is their expert level. You don't meet any paper CCIEs for a reason.

    I've taken the RHCE exam, the LPIC Level 1 exams, and the SAIR exams. By far the best exam, of course, is the RHCE since it involves a lab exam. Only time will tell if Red Hat protects this exam from brain dumps and simple HOWTOs. It wouldn't be hard to mix it up enough to do that.

    So, in conclusion, certs are a tool. I think it's crazy to look down on people with certs, but it's even more crazy to hire them for the simple reason they have certs. If a person has a cert I'll quiz them on thep product/technology enough to see if they can back it up. If they can't then I know they just studied for the exam, not the product/service and they just lost points.
  • So there are dozens of different Cert courses out there on the market, A+ being one of them.

    As someone who is thoroughly grounded in the basics of Linux and Networking, but is not yet "guru" enough to be considered an expert, what is a worthwile Certification to persue so as to get my foot in the door as an entry level grunt?
    i.e. Someone who assists the company gurus by handling the menial tasks that they have no interest in dealing with.
    At least by starting out as a grunt, I can learn first hand from the company gurus where I should be directing my studies.

    Any senior gurus here on Slashdot wanna give me/us some insight as to what you would be looking for in an entry level grunt?

    McDoobie

    • entry level grunt:

      IQ over 115 prefer 120+
      Able to work unsupervised but wil ask for help when it is needed (that impresses me more)
      Runs a network at home, has set up and managed a lanparty.

      Plusses to get me impressed.
      Has sucessfully installed Slashcode.
      can handle teaching a braindead salesperson for the 30th time that login: wants their username, and they have to actually log-in to read email, with a smile on their face.
      can after 20 minutes in my server room during the tour tell me 1 thing to improve productivity.. (I have 4 things intentionally wrong in there that can be easily fixed and spotted.

      Now I'm a IS manager with a clue. most IS/IT managers are pretty clueless or too busy to spend time finding a great employee.
  • The A+ website has some dead links (such as "http://comptia.org/certification/aplus/URL", which is supposed to link to the FAQ. And there's no obvious way to mail the organization. Did they certify their web designer?
  • what does kinko's have to do with it?
  • Certification does bring with it an exposure to a certian range of learning. For example, an MSCE exposes you to antique networking. With A+ you get to pull a pc apart and put it together again.

    But what I have found, especially with the MSCE stuff, is that they look only at the MS solutions, and never at the competition. So you get this legacy certificate in legacy software. MS is in the process of cancelling their NT4 certs, and getting modern drivers for NT4 is hard to do. The point is, if you want third party stuff, support it. It's the same all the way around.

    With third party certification, at least they teach you practical things, although the A+ software course I was on was a five day MS ad.

    But it took me a grand total of 12 minutes to pass the exams. The fun thing was that in the the servey (which uses the exam question), selecting "no further course" is a wrong answer. Well...

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