Rio Car (Empeg) Sounds Like History 276
An Anonymous Coward writes: "An unoffical announcement on the empeg BBS (home of their finatical user base) is that SONICblue's current aftermarket car linux product, the Rio Car (formerly the empeg Car Player) has been EOL'd. While it remains the most advanced car player available, there was not enough demand to keep that group profitable. It will continue to be sold through their e-stores (Non-USA and USA) until inventory is exhausted.
This was/is the ultimate in car stereo for MP3 playback. Disappointing."
Price... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Price... (Score:1)
Re:Price... (Score:1)
Re:Price... (Score:2, Funny)
Sheesh, $1000 / 3 seconds delay when you change a disk. Even my billing rate isn't that high. :)
Exactly (Score:2)
How did this happen? (Score:4, Insightful)
-Henry
Re:How did this happen? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:How did this happen? (Score:3, Informative)
Of course, it required that I wrote my own software and built my own hardware; but it's worth it to be driving around with 40 GB of throbbing MP3 goodness.
Re:How did this happen? (Score:2, Interesting)
MP3-CD car deck: $500ish. Top-end Plextor CDRW: $200ish. Spindle of CDs: $30ish.
Total cost: $750ish.
With the $250 to $1150 left over, I can buy me a shipload of good music.
And it's a helluva lot easier to burn me a CD than to dink around hauling the player carcass from the car to the cradle, connecting up the cradle, flashing the MP3 drive, deconnecting the bloody cradle, and then lugging the carcass back out to the car. Oi!
Good idea, real innovative the month it was introduced, obsoleted PDQ. (Now, make one of 'em with a Bluetooth/802.11/whatever wireless interface, so I can update the drive without even being near the car, and my interest might be piqued!)
Re:How did this happen? (Score:2, Informative)
Many users have connected the ethernet interface to a wireless bridge so that they can upload songs whenever their car is in range of the house without having to remove the unit.
In practise, because of the capacity of the empeg, i find i only take it inside once every six months or so to put new tunes on it.
And personally, i find it much easier to drag and drop songs onto my empeg than to burn MP3 CDs.
Re:How did this happen? (Score:2, Insightful)
Who would do that? I have an enormous commute (90 min each way). At that rate I barely have to change an ISO MP3 CDR twice a week. And since I keep 12 or so tucked under my visor (takes 3 seconds when I do), I can go 2 months without hearing the same song twice. And who would tote them to and from the car? It's not like the media is expensive.
I pity the poor slob that has to live in his car long enough to "enjoy" a bigger selection.
Re:How did this happen? (Score:2, Interesting)
Remember, those CD's self-destruct at fairly low temperature. My car is black/black.
Besides, the last thing I want in a Z06 Corvette are CD's flying everywhere.
I've been looking at this thing for the past month. I want one and I will probably buy one desipte the product's demise.
Perhaps most important of all is the open source nature of the product. Their software only uses 30% of the CPU capacity. The rest is up for grabs. You can login via the ethernet and get a shell - any shell you want to install and use.
You can expand it with your own hard drives.
They give away a developer's toolkit. The people who made this thing really seemed to have a clue.
I'm investigating using the device to store chassis and engine performance data while I listen to music.. Since I already have ethernet in my garage (doesn't everyone?), plugging the car into the net is no problem.
I considered building my own player using an embedded Linux system. I could have done it, but I'm smarter than that. it would have taken a lot of time and cost nearly as much - if not a lot more once the kinks were ironed out (even assuming my time is 'free' - far from it). And the software and UI just aren't there. Lots of work! In the end, my system would have been grossly inferior.
Re:How did this happen? (Score:2, Insightful)
Yeah, I remember when I had an obsolete, slow CD burner. I'd still need to backup those kinds of media files, since I wouldn't trust my car to that job.
CD's self-destruct at fairly low temperature.
Last I checked, the temperature a CD-R blows at is was well above the operating temperature of most hard drives. At any rate, my CDs have stayed all summer in the Texas sun -- no problem.
The rest is up for grabs
For $1000-$2000 I would expect more bundled. A GUI; IO lines to control the car; GPS, to begin with.
it would have taken a lot of time and cost nearly as much
I think the point of mass-production should be product that is more expensive, not less, to do it yourself. And the value of what they did just doesn't justify such a premium price.
Re:How did this happen? (Score:2)
I'm rarely in my car for > 30mins at a time, and with CDs being like $0.30 and drive speeds burning at 16x-24x (i.e. a few minutes), I'd just make a playlist, burn it while getting ready, and grab it 5 minutes later on the way out. I've got about 15 of these that have all of the music that I commonly listen to, and I rarely need to change CDs while driving.
Re:How did this happen? (Score:2)
I'd wager a guess that 99% of car trips in North America are less than 45 minutes. Probably 2/3rds are less than 30 minutes.
I have a CD player in my car, and a small binder with 10 cds in it. I find it a trivial task to change the CD, and I tend to only do that when I get in the car and turn it on. Even when driving it's not a difficult thing to do. Plus for those with decks, you don't even need to do that much.
If you use only real CDs (meaning commercial music) and not your own custom CDs, then I think that this might be useful. However by the very nature of this you're doing everything on MP3s and now that burners and disks are so cheap it's not worth the large cost of the device. I can easily understand why there was far insufficient demand to continue production of the device.
I also make trips about twice a month that are about an hour in length, and I never listen to the radio. I change the CD once or twice sometimes, and as I said, it's a trivial task.
agreed, to an extent (Score:2)
Furthermore, the sytem isn't exactly overpriced. I've seen build-your-own systems and in order to get it as compact and as nice-looking as the Empeg, it costs over $1000. The problem for the Empeg is that it's too expensive for how much most people would use it: Most people don't drive around all day, and they're only in their cars for a very limited time. Spending $1000 on just a receiver (especially one that isn't a chick magnet like an in-dash DVD player) doesn't exactly fall into the budget of most people.
If I had $1000 to burn, I would definitely have bought one; it's exactly what I want. However, if I had a $1000 to burn, I'd also spend it on something else first...
Re:How did this happen? (Score:1)
Please check your facts.
I have one gotta go get another one (Score:2, Funny)
--Aaron
So explain to us... (Score:2)
BTW, is it easy to pull out? I'd hate to have a $1K device in my car that's easy to steal.
Oh yeah, the hard disk can hold as much music as 100 CDs. So you can only fit 10 hours of listening onto a single CD. I guess with 60 gigs you can drive around for about a month without going home to change your, uh, music files. But would you really want to?
Re:So explain to us... (Score:2)
I do a lot of off-roading in my truck in very sandy and dusty areas - this is murder on CD's and pretty much anything mechanical that isn't completely sealed.
I wish I had the money to get an EMPEG but instead I've been working on piecing together my own system since I can't drop $1,000 all at once like that.
My biggest problem has been finding an affordable HD that can take enough abuse to live in the environment I want to run it. I'm leaning towards just using CF cards but then I'm back at the price problems again.
Sturdy Media for Music (Score:2)
So you're looking at hard disks just because they're sealed? Yet you're having trouble finding an affordable drive that can stand the shock. I would think it would be easier to find a CD drive for rough conditions than a hard drive. True, CD drives aren't sealed, but you can put them in a dustproof enclosure. Get something with fat buffers so skipping won't be a big issue. That just leaves you with the problem of finding a device sturdy enough, but you've got that anyway.
But it sounds to me like you need a system that doesn't have anymoving parts. This MMC-based system [crutchfield.com] (or your home-hacked alternative) would seem to fit the bill. Yeah, MMC cards are horrendously expensive compared to hard disks. But if you're budgeting, say, $200 for your storage medium, you can afford 256MB of storage. Puny by today's standards, but still enough to hold several hours of music.
Cost (Score:1, Redundant)
Re:Cost (Score:1)
Totally Portable is better than In-Car (Score:1, Interesting)
Crisis of Confidence (Score:1)
What about oggs? (Score:1)
Not wanting to risk patent infringement suits causing me problems, I removed all of my mp3s and re-ripped everything as ogg vorbis files. Does anything out there play them? I'd love to have an ogg player that can replace my measly 10-disc changer.
Re:What about oggs? (Score:1)
not too many stations playing the oldies like dead kennedys and X.
Re:What about oggs? (Score:2)
OK, that's enough shameless plugs for me.
Actually... (Score:1)
grrrrrr (Score:2, Funny)
Re:grrrrrr (Score:1)
The code isn't being opened because, as the announcement at the empeg BBS stated, SONICblue are moving to an OEM model with major manufacturers (instead of attempting to build their own automotive brand). The source is also common to a number of other current and forthcoming Rio products.
Rob
Similarly priced MP3 CD+HD+Tuner unit (Score:1)
Looks pretty freaking rad, but is it coming out? the website says "Summer 2001"...looks like it needs to be updated one way or another.
Anyone have any insight on this company?
Re:Similarly priced MP3 CD+HD+Tuner unit (Score:1)
The new SONICblue automotive sales model - working with major auto manufacturers and OEM's - would seem to be the best bet now. Of course, average car owners don't want cool geek toys with Ethernet and all the other fun things we threw into the empeg with little regard for cost reduction
Rob
Not enough demand?? (Score:3, Interesting)
I never heard anything.
Re:Not enough demand?? (Score:2)
So did I.
I never heard anything.
I heard back from them. I got an email stating that my number (1620-something, IIRC), had come up and that I was welcome to place an order.
The only problem was that was fourteen (14) months after I had registered with them for a spot in line. By that time, I had already spent the money I was saving for it, and the new headunit I'd also need, on something else.
MP3 Businesses (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:MP3 Businesses (Score:2)
Car stereos are expensive enough as it is. A head unit is only part of the cost if you want decent sound; you also have to look into new speakers, plus installation cost (or a weekend if you do it yourself).
I worked for a telecom company that had the same problem; they spared no expense ensuring they had the finest possible product. The problem was that they then had to push that cost onto customers and finance building the product. They just had their second round of layoffs, and are down to a third of the size they were at a year ago.
I don't see why this is bad news. Of course, you should expect it to be a great product for $1k, but for most users, why spend $1k when you can get a $200 MP3 CD unit? Heck, you can get a portable MP3 CD player and a cassette-deck adapter for less than $100. MP3 sound quality isn't anything to shout about, so why not?
I don't think your comments about folks who buy cars is really relevant, though. I'm old enough to buy a car and I sure as heck know how to do the MP3 thing. Even guys in Marketing here at work listen to their huge libraries of encoded MP3's while they type up reports.
But the real issue is, as you say, that you don't really get $800 worth of extra value out of the $800 extra you spend on one of these. You can do the same thing with a handful of MP3 CD's, which are more convenient to handle and cheap as dirt.
$1000+ line of players (Score:2, Insightful)
I thought long and hard before I coughed up the mere $300 for the AIWA MP3 player. Sure, it only holds one ISO9660 disk at a time, but that's 15-18 albums, better than most changers. And I keep a stash of ISO disks under my visor, making for more than 10 GB. And it plays VBR encoded tracks at my preferred higher bitrates.
Scrolling to find a track on a HD with 4,000 tracks would a pain on the freeway too.
Downside is that the AIWA is the *ugliest* thing around; It fits in with my old pickup though.
Too limited (Score:2)
Wouldn't that be spiffy [iobjects.com]?
Re:Too limited.. duh! have you been to the site? (Score:1)
Hmm, maybe one should think first, and speak later..
Re:Too limited.. duh! have you been to the site? (Score:2)
One would think that if the manufacturer was going to add features that they would put it on the product page in case one wanted to actually consider buying the product.
Re:Too limited.. duh! have you been to the site? (Score:1)
Re:Too limited.. duh! have you been to the site? (Score:1)
Re:Too limited.. duh! have you been to the site? (Score:1)
WMA and WAV are currently present only in test versions of the product. They will be available to the wider userbase in about a week.
We can support other formats if the demand arises (oh, nobody here bothered to mention the part of the announcement which said "software development will continue, with a major new release due shortly").
We've looked at Ogg, but we need to see an optimal integer implementation for our StrongARM platform before we can seriously consider it. I understand that some effort is going into this.
Rob
looks like it was made from radioshack parts (Score:1)
asthestics people asthetics!
High cost, no PCMCIA (Score:5, Interesting)
Better would be to get an SBC that supports Linux [linuxdevices.com], throw on a microdrive, add an 802.11b card, and then write a set of scripts that rsync to your home MP3 DB when you get in range of the access point (and after you exchange some cryptographic keys, of course). You can then use the apmd stuff to sleep your machine after the transfer.
I planned on using an old Palm IIIx and a serial cable for the GUI. PalmAMP [sbg.ac.at] works really well (for my purposes, anyway). Of course, it doesn't beat the Empeg's really fancy display. It's very nice. But worth an extra $500? Probably not.
Bad to see them go. Hopefully, they'll keep their software on the Net so others can play with it still.
-B
Re:High cost, no PCMCIA (Score:3, Insightful)
I might agree that I have an outdated clue... :-) I did some research a while back, but backburnered it after life got in the way.
Many people have enabled their Empeg/Rio units to do 802.11 while in the car. I will be one of them,.. I just got my home side (with a laptop and access point) working and the Rio player in the car is next.
How do you get the empeg set up? Do you have any links to like a how-to or some such? I'll do a search, but if you've got something you can paste in from a bookmark, that would be super cool.
And as far as hackinmg together your own linux computer for the car,.. good f'n luck. I tried it is a lot easier than it sounds,.. dealing with power supplies, custom on/off delay circuits, filesystem woas and the like are a major pain in the ass.
Hmmmm. It does sound like there are issues I hadn't considered. One thing I was thinking about a while ago was taking apart an old IBM laptop I have laying around and putting the bits in some form or another under the seats in my truck. At least then, I'd only need a PSU. When the car shut off, it would go to battery. That's overly simplistic, but workable maybe.
Another idea would be to hook up the SBC-based computer to direct battery power and then suspend it after a certain period of inactivity. You'd need something to make the power more regular, but it's certainly possible.
I wish I would have bought the Empeg first instead wasting so much time on trying to hack together a good looking usable system. It was a complete waste of time.
I might not really have that option now, though. Since it's allegedly been EOL'ed, we'll soon be back to where we were empeg-wise. I definitely will miss out on that display. The empeg had a wonderful gui. Maybe I'll look for an empeg. As long as you can get 802.11 shoehorned onto it, then I'm a happy camper.
Anyway, thanks for the eye-opener...
-B
sonic blue take over (Score:3, Insightful)
lets face it as soon as they where taken over they had lots of money and no motivation to keep selling the product
they did the development on the homePNA systems so got alot of revenue through development work
but what really killed them was that ARM went out and did them an core that they could use to do MP3 and WMA decode in the RIO 800 so its mostly hardware now compared to a mostly software solution
like other things the funtionality it got moved into hardware
regards
john jones
p.s. check out the photo of taco on the BBS
p.p.s. ed I am writeing a compiler for Xscale (-;
Re:sonic blue take over (Score:3, Interesting)
ARM doing a core that did MP3/WMA? No, this isn't true; the ARM7TDMI core was there all along - and the solution is 100% software in the rio 600/800 and nike players (plus the rio volt, intel concert, etc etc).
In fact, the Rio Receiver we also did at empeg uses the same CPU as the rio 600/800, but with a DRAM interface.
The same software decoder core is used in the empeg and the rio. We never wrote any mp3 decoders, we just did the surrounding stuff - which is a lot more complex than an mp3 decoder!
Anyway, you'll see what the empeg team has been up to all this time in a few weeks
Hugo
empeg
too expensive for poor quality (Score:2, Informative)
It doesn't surprise me that they are EOL'ing it, because it tried to serve a niche market in a niche market (rich tech-savvy people with no ear)
Re:too expensive for poor quality (Score:3, Interesting)
No, MP3s fed from the PC don't sound as good as the source CD. But they are close. Certainly close enough that if I'm sat at my PC doing work and just playing some music, the quality is more than adequate. It's even adequate for just sitting around listening to music.
The notion (posted somewhere in this sub-thread) that cars are soundproofed to a degree where road, engine and wind noise aren't significant noise factors (whilst moving, obviously) is bullshit. Plus car stereos even at the high end are compromised by their environment. You have a setup where space is at a premium, you don't have luxury of completely defining the acoustic enclosure (why don't all hi-fi speakers look like car doors?) or of seating those listening in an optimal position. Yes, you can design with this in mind. But you will always be behind equally-priced systems that don't suffer the same basic constraints.
So essentially, I think you're talking out of your arse about quality being the issue. The difference between MP3 and CD quality is minor compared to other factors.
$100-$260 Portable plugs into your stereo Aux jack (Score:2)
Re:too expensive for poor quality (Score:2)
Re:too expensive for poor quality (Score:3, Interesting)
I seriously have no clue what brands are known as "good quality sound".
My friend insists that Bose speakers are the best speakers ever made (not the crappy little Bose WaveRadio, but their real (big) 15-year old speakers w/ whatever reciever system he's using)...
I don't have anything to compare it to except my dad's Acoustic Research (I think that's what they're called) & his NAD amp... which sound pretty damn good.
What are good speaker and stereo component brands (real stuff, not the integrated-system crap that you could get at Best Buy)?
Re:too expensive for poor quality (Score:2)
Your dad's setup is probably a pretty good one, with the hardware you mentioned.
You won't find anything that truely sounds good at Best Buy. Their more expensive stuff is ok, but it's WAY overpriced.
Find yourself a good home theatre store. Bring a few CD's for you, tell the sales guy what you're looking for (2 speakers, under say $700) and he'll pop your cd(s) in and switch between various speakers/hardware to give you an idea what they sound like.
The "budget" end of good speakers will be somewhere around $500. For $500 you'll get something that sounds 100x better than anything you can find in best buy. You won't get a huge pair of speakers, but size isn't everything in audio quality. B&W makes probably the best budget speakers in the business. Just about anything you find in the home theatre store will be good stuff; use the sales guy -- the places I usually go to don't have commissioned sales people; but they really laid back, know their stuff, and give you a good idea what you can get in your price range.
Re:too expensive for poor quality (Score:1)
And plus, when you turn up the volume on the stereo, it masks the already muffled noise of the engine. But if its an MP3 coming through, you are *also* amplifying the *WHITE NOISE*.
hmm (Score:1)
You Must be Joking (Score:4, Flamebait)
I just bought Aiwa's $349 mp3 cd player (with AM/FM and Auxiliary input)
Reads cdr's, cdrw's, this thing , Rio player looks like a fsking Joke to me.
a built in HD? give me a break, kiddies.
I can stash 2-300 songs (at 128k and higher br) per cd which take me 5 minutes to burn.
Hell, when a friend likes one of the songs, I GIVE THEM THE CD.
Rio, go screw. Your product blows. Most 'advanced' mp3 player? Please. Not even an AM radio built in.
Re:You Must be Joking (Score:2)
Open your PC's case, put an AM radio inside and turn it on, and close the case back up. See what sort of signal you get.
Speak not from whence you know not.
Re:You Must be Joking (Score:1)
Anyone spending that much money on a player has a questionable level of intelligence.
My bet? He's driving around a 1994 Ford Aspire, as in Aspire to Driver something better(tm).
"Hoo-Hee! Lookut me! [snork snork] I've got 3000 songs on my player! I've got ALL of Emo's remixes and bootlegs on my car stereo! It's [snork snork] even got a bash prompt so I can write my own addons, like my Speed Sensitive Song Selector! 30mph and under Paul Anka, over 55-60mph (because my car won't go faster) and my script plays Orbital for me! Too bad though, that my alternator is fried every time my super-parametric-shizzum-shaftum-luft-gizmo equalizer kicks on."
Re:You Must be Joking (Score:1)
However, apart from the somewhat insulting tone of the message I have to say he has a great point.
If I could find a nice player with an HD as well as a CD player, I would love to be able to house my entire music CD collection in the car and never have to worry about forgetting CD's again. Like he said, even if you can fit a few hundred sonds on a CD you've just reduced the size of the problem (though at least you've eliminated the problem of breakage or theft, which was a primary concern for me).
The Aiwa is OK, but I really look forward to an affordible car model that plays CD's/CDR's, supports OGG, comes with a HD nad supports wireless ethernet to load stuff onto it. About $500 and I think I'd spring for it.
Re:You Must be Joking (Score:1)
It's a freaking Car stereo!
I'm in my car for a maximum of 25-30 minutes per ride, two or three times a week.
I get 5-6 songs in, max.
3,000? Nuts. Nuts Nuts Nuts.
When I first got my player, it took me 5 minutes just to find the song I wanted to hear! (Song 150 out of 300~)
"But I can search by genre!"
Genre schmanra. When all 300 songs are techno, you had better have one fast way of getting from song 1 to song 280. Click-click-click-click-click [etc etc etc] Assuming you know what track number you're looking for, "Now, was Atom Bomb track 1,250 or was it track 3,218?!?!"
Give me a break.
It's just a car stereo for Osama's sake.
Re:You Must be Joking (Score:2)
Bullshit. Anything over 192/stereo is a complete waste of time. If you knew anything about audio compression, you'd understand that above that, you should be using MP2.
Anything that large, you might as well just not bother compressing it in the first place.
What encoder? (Score:2)
And if you're using Xing, then nothing can help you, it'll sound like total crap at any combination of settings.
Wrong arguement.. (Score:2)
I'm using my hearing and my backside to tell you MP3s at less than 320k do not have the same sonic quality as an original CD.
First off: I had at one point in time a very expensive stereo system in my car. I have a nice system now, but no quad subwoofer anymore :). Kinda hurts accelleration..
Anyhow, what you are hearing isn't the difference in "sonic quality" from the mp3. It's more likely the deck you're using. Most decks have much more time devoted to the circuitry and preamps on the CD than the auxillary in, or even the internal mp3. Most aux in jacks will hurt quality because they assume you've already done all the processing.
How to test this theory? Take a CD. Rip a song (you still can do that, I think.. but hurry) and encode it at 192 or 128. 128 for the sake of arguement. Play it. It'll sound different, because the circuitry needs to be retuned. Then take that mp3, decode it, and burn it again. You'll notice all that "lost" quality reappeared, because it really didn't go anywhere.
Unless your ears are trained, you'll never hear a difference. At least I don't. If you think mp3s suck that bad.. have fun with the mountain o cds (or limited selection).
What does that mean? (Score:1)
Syncing... (Score:1)
Seriously though, they should have realized that a CD-MP3 player would have blown them out of the water. Even a little further down the road (pardon the pun), cars will probably have some kind of wireless thingy to listen to streams.
Just my $.02.
My linux car project is going on sourceforge... (Score:1)
Re:My linux car project is going on sourceforge... (Score:1)
The question I have is: how quickly does it boot?
I've seen projects that use a 1U box with a pentium chip and a 20GB harddrive before, but since they're all just regular PCs, they probably take the same two minutes to boot that my home PC does. I don't want to wait for the music...
And just imagine when it exceeds the maximal mount count... Yuck!
Phatbox (Score:1)
I didn't see anything about price just now, but I believe I saw it at well under $1000, the last time I was there.
But it doesn't list ogg vorbis as a supported format. X-(
Build your own (Score:2)
Re:Build your own (Score:2, Informative)
When I first got interested in MP3 car players, CD-R models were still new (ie. sucked), and Empeg was the only cool model out. I signed up but by the time they allowed me to buy one, I realized that building one would be cheaper (and way more fun). If you're thinking about building a mp3car, then make sure you check out MP3car's Bulletin Board [mp3car.com].
later,
ajay
Re:Build your own (Score:2)
"oh sure, we're going to (embark on lengthy silly task) because that way it will be Free!! It will r0x0r!!"
"Well, how far have you gotten?"
"We have a sourceforge site and some PHP and somebody did a killer Flash intro..."
Easy to talk big on slashdot....
Why do people think it is overpriced? (Score:2, Insightful)
It has a *parametric* equaliser which is worth a couple of hundred dollars alone and it even has ethernet. You can even hook up a base station and make it wireless.
It costs a fortune to build and the support is top notch - they've been invaluable in helping me with a custom install, why beyond what they would be expected to do.
Why is it that when a company makes a unique, well designed and built product, at a realistic price, that people put it down?
Remember - the component cost alone is very high, and no, it isn't justa hundred dollars worth of parts. Remember that these were built in small quantities and the parts people overlook are the most expensive - the metal case, plastic front panel, the packaging.
The empeg guys never intended for it to be mass-market and appeal to 18 year olds. They built a box that lets you store your entire music collection and carry it around. This isn't competing with portable players and people using laptops.
Look beyond what *you* can afford and what *you* want. It does what it set out to do perfectly. Just because it isn't the product you'd have designed doesn't mean it isn't a good product.
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Why do people think it is overpriced? (Score:2)
No, I am not. I went to the web page and saw what it could do as sold to the end-user.
And your point is?
Normal people in cars want music. That's why it is sold for that purpose. I don't care about being able to hook my GPS to it and get a worse display than the GPS comes with.
Can you connect the dots?
GPS
Database
Wireless Ethernet
Tada! I don't want to look at the GPS data, I want to collect and store it. Perhaps with a different screen a realtime navigation system would be interesting but it really is of lesser interest than simply maintaing GPS logs with a minimum amount of work.
I don't have any need to store files from a digital camera on it -- I have a laptop for that or I can just buy more memory modules.
Compact Flash Adapter
Hard Drive
Wireless Ethernet
Tada!
This isn't just storing the pictures, it's always transferring them to the main server with the minimum amount of work.
It's not an in-dash computer (Diamond has enough sense to know that a 128 x 32 display does not a computer make).
You seem to have a fixation with display. It really reveals your limited thinking of additional uses for something like the Empeg. There is nothing wrong with that but you continually say talk about yourself and then make generalizations as if your choices are the "normal" choices that everyone would make. My sole arguement is that while this CD player you purchased serves your needs other people might be interested in the options a system like the Empeg makes possible...
It's a car stereo. That's why it is sold as that. And in that role, it's sorely lacking. Even the audio specs are not that good with the AUX input having an upper limit of 18khz and only a 50db separation. They don't even publish the frequency response specs for the D/A section.
So for you it is a car stereo. No problem. I have said it before and I'll say it again - I'm not interested in the Empeg. There? Got it? I'm interested in a similar solution but using off the shelf commodity PC parts.
You are in a car driving. What application could possibly make up for the fact that it can't play CDs, doesn't come with a tuner, doesn't come with an amp, and eats up the only available DIN slot in most cars? Don't cell phones distract you enough? Now you want to play PacMan on your dashboard?
Is this your regular form of arguement? Tangent after tangent while chopping core arguements? If you can't see a use for something like the Empeg than you made the right decision. Not everyone is going to have the same interests. I would think that should be exceedingly obvious by now but you ignored this issue...
Please! I would suspect you put this in your sig just because of this little arguement.
Shows what you know. That's been my sig for months and months. Here's the URL of a post I made in July:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=13374&thres
If you happened to investigate the signature system a little closer you might notice that if you change your sig now it will change everywhere. At least that is how it worked in Slash 1.x, haven't check in 2.x. If what you say is true than I find it unsurprising that we are having this arguement. If all you intend to do is continue editing out valid points and inserting mindless tangents there is no point in continuing.
I believe it is plain to see that you are obviously biased towards your solution.
Yes. I developed that bias by comparison shopping. That's why I chose the JVC. I looked at the Empeg and, frankly, the cost was not an issue. What were issues were the shortcomings that I have mentioned previously (no CD, no amp, tuner not included, etc.) Even if you were to offer me the Empeg for $400, I'd still take the JVC KD-SH99 that I chose.
Great! But that doesn't mean everyone else will make the same choice.
Feel free to maintain the persecuted attitude but I doubt any logical person will buy it.
I don't feel persecuted. My comments have not been modded down and this debate has nothing to do with the merits of Linux vs. some other OS.
No but it does tread a similar vain - proprietary versus open. On that you can scoff all you want but I doubt that the "average" slashdot poster would prefer a CD player versus an onboard computer that runs linux. Obviously the possibilities are not evident to you so such a solution would merely be an annoyance.
You know what no logical person will buy? The Empeg. That's why they are being discontinued.
Well quite a few people have already purchased an Empeg. Personally I myself would not choose an Empeg even if the company was still producing them today simply because I believe other options are more interesting. But the people buying Empegs bought them partially for the same reason you brought your CD player - they wanted a simplyfied solution that had most, if not all, of the annoying little quircks like power supply problems ironed out.
One last note - in terms of fuzzy music. You mentioned that you could avoid fuzzy music by listening to the original CD. But of course this brings us back full circle to the whole problem of carrying an entire library of CDs with us at all times. Perhaps you meant simply a few CDs that you would like to listen to in unadulterated form. Well the same thing is possible with an onboard computer. There is nothing to stop one from playing a straight CD image of a music disk. Obviously they will take up more space but on a 100gb hard drive a couple full uncompressed albums would not get in the way at all.
What it comes down to is that you are simply interested in listening to music in your car. I am interested in listening to music in my car and playing with a number of other interesting possibilities. In terms of time my solution will be more costly but that is a choice I am free to make. If you derive personal satisfaction from a premade solution than why argue another persons personal satisfaction found in a non-premade solution. It simply makes no sense.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Why do people think it is overpriced? (Score:2)
So let me get this straight. First you argue that the Empeg has few features so the cheaper CD player is preferred. Then when I point out that in fact the CD player is the feature limited item you come back with a statistic that you pull out of thin air to make your point?
While I fully agree that the regular public would most likely not be interested in modifying the Empeg to their own means that does not mean the Empeg has no market. Just look at how many people read SlashDot. I would bet that a high percentage of SlashDot readers would choose the Empeg over the CD player if they were within the same price range. In reality it is only the implementation of the Empeg that is flawed. Perhaps they would have been wiser to sell a simplier solution that took care of the vexing problems like display and input. The cost of producing the Empeg was simply too high for the market. If they started small they could have developed an accurate forecast of market for the Empeg. Then they could start to produce it if they felt the market was receptive. Instead they choose to believe the market demanded something like the Empeg and went ahead and started production.
So? Let the market prove it. It did. End of story. You are trying to say 100% that it is worthless while I am merely pointing out the idea has merit even if the actual implementation by Empeg was flawed (in price, etc).
I purposely chose a page that was static (e.g., no replies allowed) as I believe that those signatures are also static. If you wish to take the time, I think that you will find other people have commented on my signature in the past. I have no time to search through the archives looking for such an examples but you are welcome to do so if you are the type of person who likes to retract unfair accusations.
You make a mountain over a molehill. I really could care less either way. For what it is worth I don't have a hard time believing what you say at all. I merely was inquisitive in my first post. It is excellent reverse troll material.
In closing, this argument has gotten absurd. I explained why the general public would view the Empeg as overpriced.
No, you choose to argue that the Empeg was an unreasonable product that had no demand and was thus worthless. When countered with the possible uses of the Empeg you shot back with silly retorts that lambasted valid ideas. Ideas that you apperently choose to ignore or could not comprehend. If you could not see a use for the Empeg or a similar solution than no problem - don't buy one. But that does not mean that other people can't see uses for such a product.
You came up with some esoteric uses for it that might make it valuable to you -- but to very few others.
Quite a few other people are interested in using computers in their car to perform similar operations. Why do you think people are interested in buying a car that has an onboard navigation system? There is demand else the car makers wouldn't produce such a system. But no real geek would be satisfied by a boxed navigation system. I would imagine the average SlashDot reader has seen the power possible from open solutions and therefore tends to prefer the open solution over the closed even at higher cost because does not limit expansion possibilities. Open this and open that is the rage but there is a real ideal and viable demonstarted working behind such things. That doesn't mean the hype isn't highly annoying...
The fact that it has failed in the marketplace, despite having a high profile and being marketed by a large company, supports my arguments very well and I'll leave that market failure to stand on its own.
If you had argued that the Empeg failed due to cost instead of the features you would have won by now. In fact there would have been no arguement. I believe the reality is that the Empeg failed due to lack of market demand too. But it was the high cost and not the lack of features that led to its demise.
I think that this may be the most telling statement in your whole response:
Personally I myself would not choose an Empeg even if the company was still producing them today simply beause I believe other options are more interesting.
So what you are saying is that you cannot cost-justify it given its limitations? If you could, you would have one in your car today.
Tada!
It's overpriced for its capabilities.
I would prefer another solution because I have more time than money. I don't mind tinkering with an onboard system made with commodity PC parts. But those like me who already have a working onboard computer would most likely be interested in the Empeg simply because it is very hard to squeeze the computer down to the size of a car stereo. I don't have the need for such a small system but people who drive sports cars probably do... Of course that is an extremely small market. But I would think that those who have more money than time would be highly interested in the Empeg no matter the size of their vehicle.
The Empeg is overpriced period. Not for it's capabilties but for what it is. If I argued in the same line as you I would say your CD player is overpriced for its capabilities. But I don't because obviously for you it is not overpriced for its capabilities while for me it is.
I wonder if the reason that we are having this arguement is that you don't want to admit that cost played the higher role than features when you made your decision. To me, and I maintain many others, the Empeg has an infinite number of features while the CD player is the one that is limited in features. But I would not choose either the CD player or the Empeg simply because neither meets my needs. The Empeg is too expensive and the CD player too lacking in features. It's fine if the reason you choose the CD player was the lack of jusitfication in spending double or more of it's cost on the Empeg. No problem - I understand 100%. But that is no reason to argue that the Empeg is worthless because it is too expensive.
Anyway - I too grow weary of arguement. I believe we both can see the others arguement even if we don't agree. There are many examples of people using a PC in there car for wacky things like navigation, music playing, car to home wireless LAN, etc. For examples just do a google search with "car mp3 player"... So in closing I maintain that the Empeg had a good idea but the implementation was flawed. Hopefully we'll soon see similar products that have a lower price tag. But even if we don't there are plenty of options for those that want more than a CD player but wouldn't/couldn't pay for an Empeg.
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PhatNoise - review of an alternative system (Score:5, Informative)
I'm going to post a detailed review later, it'll be up at http://pobox.com/~jaffray/phatnoise.html [pobox.com]. In the meantime, I posted this short review to rec.audio.car, and it would seem appropriate here as well:
I've had my PhatNoise system for about a month. The physical design is very slick, and so is the software. It installed with no difficulty, just like a normal CD changer. The sound quality seems excellent to me. I'll admit that I'm not a golden ear, and my car system, while decent, isn't audiophile quality; but in general listening, and in a few short non-blind A/B tests, I can't distinguish quality of playback of my MP3s (encoded at 192kbps) from the PhatNoise from playback of CDs in the head unit.
In usage, it behaves exactly like a really big CD changer, up to 99 discs. In a way, that's good - your head unit controls are nicely refined to work with such a changer. On the other hand, if you're trying to find a specific album and song, you really want to have a tree-structured storage, with folders containing subfolders of songs. On the third hand, it could be argued that such an interface would be unsafe to use while driving, between the cognitive load and the need to look at the LCD between button presses.
Some aspects are still a bit beta-ish. I had problems with occasional skips; very infrequent, very minimal compared to CD skips, but still, MP3s shouldn't do that. They went away when I upgraded to the most recent firmware release a week ago. The PhatMan client software isn't fast enough when handling huge collections (100GB+), even after speed improvements in recent versions, and I've made it crash a few times. The firmware update process isn't as smooth as it should be.
The system is very hackable. I swapped out the PhatCart's 6GB hard drive for a 12GB drive I had lying around, which was easy, and I expect a larger drive would be just as simple. (20GB 2.5" drives are $110 these days.) The PhatBox itself is an ARM Linux system, the system files on the PhatCart are unencrypted and in fairly obvious formats, and the PhatDock is just a standard IDE-USB bridge. I've already written a simple client which uploads albums to the PhatCart from Linux, so I don't need to use PhatMan in Windows. Overall, the combination of excellent production values and relatively open internals is refreshing. Hopefully they can be persuaded to open the source to the PhatBox's main player daemon as well...
Compared to the competition: The Rio Car (AKA empeg) is way cooler, without a doubt, since it has its own display and controls and can use them more flexibly. Unfortunately it's much more expensive, and it must be installed in-dash and does not have a detachable face. For me, carrying around a DIN-sized unit and inserting/removing it for every car trip is unacceptable. On the other end of the price range, SSI makes a unit (the Neo 35) that's somewhat cheaper, but they seem to be cutting corners (like using 3.5" drives which are not intended for mobile use), the system doesn't seem nearly as polished in general, and there are some reports from unhappy customers out there.
Probably the most significant competition is from the various CDR-based MP3 head units. Carrying around a handful of CDRs, each containing a dozen albums, is a reasonable and cheaper alternative to hard-drive units for many users. highwaymp3.com reviews such units, which have gotten a lot better recently. Do your research carefully before buying one, though. They generally don't have upgradeable firmware, meaning that any bugs or missing capabilities will never be fixed. They also won't change in response to emerging standards, so the useful lifetime may be short. For example, imagine if you'd bought a MP3 player several years ago that didn't support VBR, or that glitched when playing back tracks with id3v2 tags. You'd probably want to replace it by now.
On the whole, I'm very glad I bought the PhatNoise. It's cool, it's useful, I've really enjoyed having it in my car, and for $600 (plus another $100 or $200 to bump up the capacity to 20-30GB), it's not all that expensive for what it offers. I never have to change discs or plug in or unplug anything, I just have hundreds of hours of music available to me, all the time. I'd definitely recommend it to gadget fiends in its current state, and when they ship the final release with up-to-date firmware and options for more capacity, I'd have no reservations about recommending it even to non-techies who just happen to want hundreds of hours of music on tap in their car.
Re:PhatNoise - review of an alternative system (Score:2, Interesting)
Another bad idea dies (Score:1, Insightful)
Price: Two billion bucks for a car radio is just stupid. A few nerds will buy em but then the average consumer says "wha?!?" when they see the price. It was just too expensive. Even for car audio nuts.
Ease of use: Very silly. You had to get it out if the car to put tracks in it? Hello. Stupid and clunky way of getting the thing to work. An MP3 cd player in your car does a better job. Blank cd's are about 0.30 cents. A much better option with a very cheap media.
Why are people shocked when a bad idea dies?
The best ideas always win because people vote with money, not the OS it's based on.
Jebus
Yet another open-source player... (Score:3, Informative)
Firmware/schematics/PC-side source code are all open-sourced. There's a fairly clean C++ library for talking to the player and downloading tracks. I'm really hoping some kind soul will use this to write a nice GUI download application for Linux and Windows. (The current software is Windows only, and crashes fairly regularly).
Needless to say, this is a fairly complex project - don't try building one unless you've got a fair deal of soldering experience!
eConomics of the thing (Score:3, Informative)
my $0.02
Selling Off the Stock... (Score:2)
The competition - portable CD/mp3 players (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm sure that they are cheaper elsewhere.
I bought a Neo35 because it was affordable (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.ssiamerica.com/products/neo35/
I bought it over a year ago for my '97 Chevy Silverado. It put a 13GB hard drive in it.
The only other upgrade I'd like to see on it is
wireless ethernet so I can park my truck by the
house and upload new tunes. Ahh for now I just
brink it in the House, plug it into my home chassis w/USB, fire up Linux and dump the songs
to disk.
What the heck. I paid $189.00 at computer geeks
for it. Direct from the manufacturer it's more.
It's still much less than $999.00, you don't have
a cool flourescent display, but you have a decent
black on green LCD display.
Comments on the complaints here (Score:3, Insightful)
1. The cost. $1000 is too much.
Ok, you probably don't realise what that $1000 gets you. It allows you to listen to your entire music collection whenever you want with a few button presses. (The interface is very slick and easy to use. No need for "next next next x130 times" to get to a song). It also gets you a very hackable in dash Linux computer. Someone already has basic navigation software working on it, and others have added web servers and streaming support when it's on an ethernet connection. Oh, that last point is a good one. I can use the unit in my house, or at work as well. Thats saved me money compaired to getting a portable HDD player, or a home MP3 player. You also get awesome support. You botched a software experiment on the player, doing things way beyond playing MP3s? Well odds are, you would post to the BBS, and have the creators of the product replying to help out. And one last point, you don't have to own a CD burner and a constant source of media to get songs you like. Also, the software is upgradable. The empeg has the power to decode Mpeg4 video, so it's going to be a while before it can't decode an audio format. (Mpeg4 video is decoded decently on an iPaq, and that uses a slightly slower StrongARM)
2. It has no radio.
Check again... The Mark 1 had an integrated FM tuner, and the Mark 2 has an optional AM/FM tuner, on an interface that could be used down the road for additional formats. (XM, etc...) It's doubtful that will happen now, but only time will tell.
3. I could build it for less.
Sure, if you don't count the time needed to build a player that is useable in the house as well. Also the time needed to develop advanced software that dosen't require your complete attention.
4. No CD support.
For the rare need of a CD in the car, I just hook a portable player into the Aux in. If you want the niceness of the empeg, with a CD player, then you are going to probably pay $2000 or more, once Pioneer gets their unit out. Plus that will be locked into the dash.
5. It could get stolen easially.
Well, yes, slightly easier then most assuming your stupid enough to leave it in the car all the time. Removable face plates are no security feature. The empeg offers the best security, since you know it won't be stolen from your side.
6. It's a hassle to hook up to add music.
Not really. You connect it in house to an ethernet cable, or USB and can sync. Just a slight bit more hassle then portable players, since you also have to have power. But what portable player allows you to stream your music via ethernet? Besides, to me it's much easier then burning a ton of cds to try and match my mood.
7. It has no built in amp.
This is a legitimate complaint to some extent. But the market empeg was aiming at, most people would have their own amps anyhow.
8. It looks like crap.
Not really. The empeg actually looks like it belongs in my dash, compaired to the cheap plastic look of most car stereos. Plus, it dosen't have 15 billion tiny buttons all over the place. And when it powers up, the screen is awesome with it's size.
I have enjoyed my empeg (both Mark 1 and 2) quite a bit. It was well worth the money, and I look forward to the rest of the market catching up many years down the road. It was a geeky product, but it did everything I wanted and more.
Empeg fan chimes in (Score:2, Interesting)
The industrial design of this unit is simply excellent. I wish the developers the best of luck in the OEM market, and believe there's still a place for this in high-end car audio. Sure, the price is a little higher -- but in my opinion fully justified. It would probably even keep working in the dash of a Humvee heading through the Khyber Pass....
Re:it appears.... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What about shocks (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What about shocks (Score:2, Informative)
1. 2.5" laptop disks with good shock tolerance
2. The disks are spun down most of the time
3. A custom shock mounted disk tray
These things are used in 4x4's, low riders, and even the occassional Cessna.
Rob
Re:$1000 up?!? (Score:2)
Until you've heard one, used one, experienced one, the price might seem high. Afterwards, it seems reasonable.