Linuxcare/Turbolinux Merger Called Off 74
A reader submitted: "Just got a call from a friend who used to work for Linuxcare until about an hour ago. The merger with Turbolinux has been called off and there are heavy casualties at both companies. According to my friend, Linuxcare is now down to about 30 people." That's just hearsay - but LinuxGram has a confirmation story as well.
mathematica? (Score:1)
System Management Tools? Bah... (Score:2)
Their tools work, barely, for a specific distro version (and they haven't been right since 6.0.x). I can't see them making a business off of them.
Remember, these are the same people who thought they could make a business off of the TurboCluster "product" (ie, joke).
Rumors? Lies? Integrity? (Score:3)
Say it ain't so!
Naive, largely ignorant, and stone deaf. (Score:4)
No one is listening to the needs of their would-be customers. People at best are berated for not settling for the Linux solution that apes their existing solution. The industry climate is so contemptuous of the suits that could make it work, that the suits of ability and ambition go elsewhere. The best model hasn't been explored: PSO's working with free tools that bid on contracts. That sort of organization requires a strong sales force, not the "build it and they will come" naive faith that many linux service companies seem to have adopted. Also, add the failure to working with existing IT service companies.
No one sat down and did real market research before this all began. My suspicion is that a bunch of Linux fan-boys, bouyed by a ridiculous capital market, said "let's start a company!" And the rest is farce.
This is sad, but not the end.... (Score:3)
Linuxcare was designed to be distribution-agnostic and I'm glad this will mean they'll be able to untie themselves from a single distro -- and back toward that independence. Overall, I think that's better for Linuxcare.
Oh, and kudos to Art Tyde for hanging in there, it can't have been fun.
Re:Cripes (Score:1)
so how do you make money at tech support? hire drones and hope that nobody notices or cares. (It works for 90% of the companies out there)
Computer people are the number one abused resource on this planet. without us the CEO would not have his posh leather chair and teak desk, the company would not exist, yet we are paid the least in contrast to our responsibilities and skills. (Why am I paid the same as the Human resource manager? I have a helluva-lot(tm) more responsibility.)
Tech-support it will either make you poor, or anti-social.
Cripes (Score:5)
It is flawed from the beginning, so the demise is not a suprise, and is not the fault of linux.
Re:Cripes (Score:1)
Support is a shakey business to begin with
Doesn't this run counter to the big idea that the grand poobahs in the community have been trying to sell companies on? "Don't worry that you can't make money selling Linux-related solutions, the money's in support." So if you can't make money on Linux, and support is a shaky business, can someone tell us why, in a capitalistic society, any business would pin their hopes on Linux?
Cheers,
Re:Business types miss what geeks see as obvious (Score:2)
Hopefully, Linux's business analogy will be more like the oil industry. There are lots of mom+pop operators until a "Rockefella" transforms it into an industry. Can anyone say "RedHatefella"?
Mod this Up! (Score:1)
One note.... (Score:1)
I don't use the modem so I don't care...but others may.
Business Card CDs! (Score:2)
This sucks. (Score:3)
LinuxCare does some great stuff on the support side. Their bootable rescue CD is EXCELLENT. Also, their hardware certification tests are nice. I based a lot of my decision to buy an IBM Thinkpad X20 on their certification and haven't regretted it one bit.
At LinuxWorld LinuxCare was showing some very nice remote management and monitoring systems they have, along with some interesting R&D work they were doing. I hope somehow they both make it...
Re:They couldn't decide on a name (Score:2)
How about Compu-global-turbo-linux-care?
It's sad, really. I hate it when a company lets its staff go because they can outsource tech support. Er, wait a minute...
Want to bet... (Score:3)
Re:System Management Tools? Bah... (Score:2)
Re:Cripes (Score:2)
The time for "because it's sexy" is well-past now, thank God.
Re:The job market sucks right now (Score:2)
Glad I don't own stock in them...
How to dispose of a competitor (Score:2)
The two may not look as if they're competing right now, but with Turbolinux setting it's sights in new directions (unbeknownst to Linuxcare) you just gotta wonder.
Re:Well..... (Score:2)
You said "We're the premier source for support on Linux."
As an active member of the South Florida Linux User Exchange, and several LUGs before that, allow to tell you : Bullshit!
Linux and all Open Source products have their premier source of support in the community. That's why it works so well for the rest of us. No contract, no fee, just trust and the love of the game. Do not disregard that kind of support just because your brain has been washed up by your paycheck provider.
Re:How to dispose of a competitor (Score:1)
Re:I hope... (Score:2)
Re:Well..... (Score:2)
Red Hat Linuxcare's biggest client? I doubt that - we have high-quality support up to 24/7 enterprise level and make money from it. Why would we waste money buying services when we have deeper knowledge of different aspects of Linux than Linuxcare, and good people to deal with it? We're the premier source for support on Linux.
Re:Well..... (Score:2)
Sorry, I meant for commercial and high-end support - for a normal user with a new user's needs, nothing beats participating in a LUG.
Now, if you increase the difficulty level a bit, LUGs become less resourceful and the commnunity of users using the same software become more important - but if you're a corporation and need your answers quickly, then the support we offer is a very valuable tool. E.g if your web servers are down or are having performance problems and it needs fixing now, our Stronghold and kernel teams are second to none.
Maureen O'Gara (Score:2)
It was completely lies...
Since then it has been removed from linuxgram but you can still see parts of it and other maureen o'gara articles on linuxtoday.com
http://linuxtoday.com/search.php3?negate=&news_sr
I have not read this slashdot article and I don't plan to. As far as I'm concerned Maureen O'Gara is lying scum and I have no reason to read anything she writes.
Re:Maureen O'Gara (Score:2)
Wait a minute... All Suse has ever done is Linux. And all Suse does is Linux.
That alone would have told me that that article was crap.
But for other people who were still confused Volker said that the author deliberately took what he said out of context.
He felt that Maureen was lying, and I feel that Maureen is a liar. She never apologised/retracted/explained herself and she's lost my trust...
Re:nosy + aggressive = good investigative reportin (Score:2)
What do you mean that LinuxCare screwed a lot of people in the Linux Community? I don't remember reading anything about that. I was never impressed with their business plan but I always liked it when they used to host kernel traffic. Zack Brown still does it even though he doesn't work for them any more which is tremendously cool of him. And they have those boot CD's that people said were cool. But other than that I don't remember anyone getting screwed by them.
TurboLinux does have some proprietary software... I have never used it. They seem like an alright company. I heard good reviews about some of their software.
Also congratulations on having such a high user id. I notice that it is just a couple higher than the other Suse_guy who also replied to my original post. Both of them were created today aparently. Just to respond to my post. Forgive me for suspecting that you are not telling the full truth about why you two would feel strongly enough to create new logins just to respond to my post. I know that probably the one reason I would do something like that is if I worked for LinuxGram. If you don't work for LinuxGram then please forgive me for thinking something bad about you. Hanging around slashdot has made me into a conspiracy theorest I guess.
Re:nosy + aggressive = good investigative reportin (Score:2)
You get fired a lot and so you create two new logins (ingenuity7 and Suse_Rulez) just to troll me? I should feel honored I guess.
>>Kernel Traffic was Zack Brown's project before he joined LinuxCare.
I never said that it wasn't. I just said that I am gratefull to them for hosting it.
>>I guess you don't know anyone who worked for LinuxCare. If you did, you would know how they screwed the community. They were always a pretend company.
LinuxCare is not a "pretend company". So far they haven't been too successful but they were never fake. You haven't told me yet what LinuxCare did that you think "screwed the community". I hear that when they laid off some of their employees people were upset because they shut off their email. That is a hassle but I hardly call it "screwing the community".
I don't normally respond to trolls like you. But aparently someone thought your first post was "Interesting" and when it was actually lies.
X20 Certifications (Score:1)
Doing that certification on the X20/X21 is what made me decide I want one, eventually, too.
- Ceren
FreeBSD's "Strange Attractor."
cercen.ridthyselfofpinkmeat@linuxcare.com
Re:One note.... (Score:1)
Show of Hands Requested (Score:1)
Not to critique the dot too harshly, but how many are with me in stating that the icon for this story [slashdot.org] just doesn't cut it?
It's too wide -- 100 pixels -- and hogs up too much of the top row. And it's ugly. Just look at it [slashdot.org]. I dare anyone to find an uglier icon on all of slashdot.
Perhaps my expectations were set too high when the crew unveiled the icon for GIMP [slashdot.org] stories. Now that's an icon!
Re:Business types miss what geeks see as obvious (Score:3)
Profit is one thing (necessary), but growth for the sake of generating revenues, and making revenues king generally results in turning business stragedies into "Lets charge a premium for this free community-thing" or "Lets do some of the infrastructure in a proprietary tie-in way." You end up killing the true technology that may win in the end and let the business mind-set gravitate back to the standard proprietary ways of doing business. This I feel is why so many Linux co's, who have had "new management" take over, tend to sound hipocritical today and sound oh so old fashioned and counter-revolutionary.
The end result: Don't trust Linux co's to be the flag bearer or to succeed in maturing Linux. It will take further maturation by the OS community, non-greedy/sound business plans, and people focused on the end goal. Its not anti-business! Its just that sound business-building/technology-building tactics are not employed!
Purely a financial matter (Score:1)
Give this man the BS artist of the year award!
I'll have to remember this the next time someone talks about a "business plan" or "going to the board of directors."
Steve Ballmer, you have nothing to worry about.
Re:They couldn't decide on a name (Score:2)
How about Compu-global-turbo-linux-care?
Then Bill Gates would have to come and "buy them out".
Anyway, now we understand why they won't merge. Anything computer-related with "turbo" in it can't last, and LinuxLinux is just plain stupid. :)
Re:People are learning... (Score:1)
Did you know that Oldsmobile is going out of business?
Despite how much automotive technology has progressed in the last 50 years, this is the kind of thing that reminds me that there is no way any money can be made from the manufacturing of automobiles.
I know we're talking about totally different industries here. What I'm not sure of is whether you understand that because 'x' businesses go belly up it does not necessarily follow that the product is not viable. Many times multiple failures precede eventual successes. Chrysler nearly went under several years ago, but in the hands of a more visionary manager was able to turn around to the point that they were able to become a leader in the industry (yes, I'm aware of the governmental bail-out, but the former management team likely could not have turned things around even if they'd had such a cash infusion).
These business failures, while they may be devastating to the principals, investors and employees, are varying attempts to see what will work in the marketplace. Those who hang in there and keep adjusting to compensate and re-tooling to incorporate what they learn along the way will eventually succeed where others have failed.
At the End of the Day..... (Score:1)
Re:Sorry for the loss of jobs... (Score:2)
/Brian
Re:This sucks. (Score:1)
I hope... (Score:3)
Re:Why (Score:2)
MG
Re:Want to bet... (Score:1)
Re:Sorry for the loss of jobs... (Score:2)
TurboLinux is _huge_ in asian countries, and LinuxCare is actually a great company who does a lot for the community and for the companies who work with the community/market. Just my two bits...
Re:The job market sucks right now (Score:1)
Not really I use HTML for almost all my "office" needs. Its reliable and incredibly portable and easier to use IMO than word. Rather than key strokes or mouse clicks you have all you need in tags. Easily visible, except for the /. crew. :)
Re:Why (Score:1)
Re:This sucks. (Score:1)
Re:So called "flagging economy" (Score:1)
The simple thing is that the ECONOMY is not as good as it used to be. That means, deals made three-four months ago don't make sense now. Can you get that?
U.S. 1Q GDP surges [cnn.com]
The economy is stronger than it was 3-4 months ago. Just because the Linux world has crashed, or the .COM world has gone belly up does not mean that "the economy" has faltered. In any case the majority of negativity regarding "the economy" is based on the absurd supposition that it should grow and grow and grow forever. We are never satisfied with "going steady".
So called "flagging economy" (Score:2)
Quote from the linuxgram page: "Turbolinux CEO Paul Thomas said the reasons that existed for the merger six months ago no longer exist day because of the flagging economy."
Oh give me a break. Everytime a .COM or hype market (Linux [which is a fine OS but the market hype was irrational], MP3s, etc.) implodes after reality sets in (i.e. "show me the money"), the talking heads come out talking about the flagging economy, to the point that the overwhelming negativity of dreamers affects actual consumer spending and actually disrupts the real economy. Those ridiculous extrapolated charts just aren't coming true in the real world where business models have to actually at least break event.
Then again, perhaps that's what he means: Maybe he means "The rules that govern the economy have failed to change in a manner that would allow us to make money by spending more than we take in. This fundamental of our business plan has not proven true so we must cede defeat.
Re:Business types miss what geeks see as obvious (Score:1)
Jaysyn
Damn! (Score:1)
They wouldn't even have had to have a product, just sell the name. Now that's 1337!
Re:Naive, largely ignorant, and stone deaf. (Score:3)
we had them all woking for us to implement some custom b2b edi stuff that we wanted done - on linux. its still in production, 4 years strong.
the point is that back then - they were working on an open source app (secuREMOTE - linux based vpn software). but they were called on heavily to do a lot of linux support stuff.
Working with free tools on contracts they were supposed to bid on - was exactly what the original model was - and give corporate support for linux as to bolster acceptance of the OS as a viable tool for businesses to adopt on the front lines. however - there were obviously some changes that took affect when they got all that money - and I think some of it had gone to the companies head, which caused them to loose focus on the core of the idea.
You CAN make money on support - the problem isnt that it is not a vaild market to go after, it is that it wasnt a fully developed market.
If linuxcare were to foster and groom that market, they could have shoulda woulda done things a bit more differently - like attempting to make the market more full earlier, by building strong relationships with any and every dell, compaq, penguin, va, etc they could find.
and I also want to applaud them for being, as you say, a bunch of linux fan-boy saying "lets start a company!" - as if you look at the "linux" arena as a whole today - linuxcare brought some much needed attention to linux - by getting investors to really look at it - businesses are more comfortable with the term "linux" than they were, and you have something to talk about
so it isnt totally over for them - and although they didnt do a mountain of stuff in the market - they did a hell of a lot more than a lot of other companies have done for linux.
Re:Naive, largely ignorant, and stone deaf. (Score:2)
I'd say that's an excellent description of Eazel and Ximian. LinuxCare, on the other hand, had some really smart money behind it and a business plan that's reasonable (or at least not outright laughable). It had lousy leadership though, and bad timing.
Bottom line for a lot of these companies -- if Linux had managed the 10% market share and non-geek user base its boosters were predicting, LinuxCare could have done well providing support for Compaq or Dell or something. No market, no money.
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
Re:Cripes (Score:2)
No, he's moved on to running his mouth on the LKML, and getting a smackdown from Alan Cox [indiana.edu].
Actually, the whole thread is pretty funny if you have the time to read it. I'd forgotten how much of a blowhard the guy is -- you'd think he'd have sufficient shame to tone down his pomposity and boasting in a forum like that, but, no.
Unsettling MOTD at my ISP.
Kinda glad it's not happening. (Score:3)
They couldn't decide on a name (Score:3)
Business types miss what geeks see as obvious (Score:5)
--
Re:Linuxcare had and still has poor management (Score:1)
The Dot Bomb! (Score:2)
Hey, merge with Eazel - I hear they're goin' cheap!
The job market sucks right now (Score:2)
Are you on the Sfglj [sfgoth.com] (SF-Goth EMail Junkies List) ?
Re: (Score:1)
Re: (Score:2)
Comment removed (Score:5)
Re:How to dispose of a competitor (Score:2)
Not that this would be even remotely on topic, but I worked for a company that was on the ropes and sure enough a bigger company offered to help us. Woohoo!
So what happens? The company I work for goes spending all this money, in anticipation of the merger. Well the bigger (smarter) company sees this and just sits there. Merger talks stall, then fail. Now we're *completely* overextended and we die. One day, there's sign on the door and my key doesn't work. Doh!The bigger smarter (and now laughing it's ass off) company then contacts our customers and offers it's services, which the customers gladly accept.
It was a gruesome, fascinating, perfect kill.
Lucky for me I was leavin' anyway, but what a lesson.
Re:So called "flagging economy" (Score:1)
Re:System Management Tools? Bah... (Score:1)
Re:People should be learning... (Score:1)
what a communist troll you are.
Ahh, I'm republican and therefore the farthest thing from a communist. I believe in capitalism.. just some things don't have the right and/or ability to be capital investments. A communist is someone who believes everyone should be equal and no one should be greater than anyone else. Sadly, you are mistaken
Both companies, particularly Linuxcare, expected to make their money as SERVICE companies.
Services is nice, but no major corporation is going to accept the statement from a "service" provider as saying "sure, we know there's a problem in Apache, but we can't do anything until the Apache developers provide a patch." Although I use Apache as an example, this is only an example and nothing against apache itself... it could be anything on a Linux system.
People that can start companies and make money from Linux inevitably help Linux penetrate the business environment and establish it as a software standard.
I never saw Linux as a commercial product, maybe that's me. I think it's best for people who want a nice desktop, or who want a cheap webserver for displaying their website, or educational use (learning UNIX-type systems). I also think Linux is pretty good for provoking the development of commercial UNIX systems as it becomes "just as good as" these systems, such as Solaris, HP-UX, AIX, etc. These are commercial systems where the support is real and the stability is real, and supported by highly trained technical staff, not some half-baked college kid. Linux is "pushing" the UNIX community and should be ONLY pushing. If it tries to takeover, it will fall short based on 1 thing only, lack of profits (it IS free, as you said). Linux also doesn't provide any new technologies, it just implements current technologies into it's kernel. Linux hasn't developed any "standard" as far as I know.
And finally, to imply Torvalds and the legion of developers as less than "good" developers because they produced Linux and its applications for free is a pretty slanderous as well.
I implied no such thing. Linus works for who? He does what? He does it... for omg MONEY?! I never said Linus or anyone else wasn't intelligent and a good coder... I just said that people need to make a living and will do so through commercial software vendors who can afford to pay them because they make PROFIT from their product.
Insulting me is a direct reflection on your own intelligence. You might have well just said "your mom" because it requires less keystrokes.
But hey, everyone can't be a millionaire, and you're just another peon who can't grasp the concept of shareware, freeware, or consulting services.
Okay so if everyone can't be a millionaire, why are all these Linux gurus trying to become millionaires by selling Linux "services" (as you put it)? Because they are trying to make money and live and feed themselves and buy their new Athlon processor(s). No, not everyone can be a millionaire. Again, Linux is FREE and you do NOT make a profit from FREE.
Hey, what are you doing on Slashdot anyway?
Because sometimes a voice of common sense needs to be heard.
Get back to work and earn your wage, slave!
Assuming what I do or who I do it for is just wrong. I could assume a lot too. For instance, I could say that your daddy was a "slave" to someone and got money so he could buy you your computer (which probably had windows95 on it) and you played on the Internet and IRC for a while until someone told you it was cool to run Linux, so you did. I can also assume that you are still not out of high school or college and do not have the simple concept of making money to live. Daddy still takes care of you, doesn't he? He still buys you your own Athlon processors, right?
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
w00t w00t raise da r00f!
Re:Why (Score:1)
Re:This sucks. (Score:1)
Re:Full circle... (Score:3)
It hasn't been look good for most Linux-only companies, but Linux is still a good deal for companies where it isn't their primary focus.
Re:The job market sucks right now (Score:3)
People should be learning... (Score:1)
what a communist troll you are.
Both companies, particularly Linuxcare, expected to make their money as SERVICE companies. Free O/S, but they wanted to make money as CONSULTANTS for Linux. There's nothing wrong with their business model as long as there are businesses moving to linux that will pay for support.
Who is "everyone"? Even RMS expected people to make money on GPLed software via "services". What a slanderous remark to make of the Linux community. The complaint was being forced to accept substandard O/S software, not be able to correct its flaws, and then be COMPELLED to pay for the defective crap. (The hardware is useless without the O/S. Obvious, but you appear to be denser than average... ) People that can start companies and make money from Linux inevitably help Linux penetrate the business environment and establish it as a software standard. People like you pissing on their efforts is a disservice towards the dissemination of Linux.
And finally, to imply Torvalds and the legion of developers as less than "good" developers because they produced Linux and its applications for free is a pretty slanderous as well.
But hey, everyone can't be a millionaire, and you're just another peon who can't grasp the concept of shareware, freeware, or consulting services. Hey, what are you doing on Slashdot anyway? Get back to work and earn your wage, slave!
Well..... (Score:3)
Re:Maureen O'Gara (Score:3)
Re:nosy + aggressive = good investigative reportin (Score:1)
Kernel Traffic was Zack Brown's project before he joined LinuxCare.
Those business card CDs were cool.
I guess you don't know anyone who worked for LinuxCare. If you did, you would know how they screwed the community. They were always a pretend company. I don't care what they do anymore because no one works there. Who cares?
nosy + aggressive = good investigative reporting (Score:2)
Sometimes what they report sounds unbelieveable but more often than not it turns out to be right on the money. They are obviously plugged in everywhere.
My question is, why beat a dead horse? Linuxcare was a bad company and screwed a lot of people in the Linux community. Who cares? Turbolinux makes proprietary software and has always sucked and claims they are big in Asia. Who cares? We all know this. Tell us something we don't know, please!