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Linux Business

Linux Certification Roundup 57

Posted by Hemos from the good-round-up dept.
jdean writes: "I thought I'd take a minute and toot my own horn and mention my article on the O'Reilly Network which gives a roundup of the various Linux certifications currently available. It's part of my series on Linux certification."
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Linux Certification Roundup More

Linux Certification Roundup

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  • There is indeed a seemingly endless mass of computer-savvy people who fight the idea of certification. But to what end? There is a valid fear of losing a job to someone who is certified through a particular company.

    However, this is a result of the IT industry becoming a main-stream business. There is NO feasible way to get a job in as a lawyer without passing a bar exam. Nor to become a doctor without enduring medical school. However, it was once not like this. Doctor's needed no certification to operate when there were no standard medical boards and such.

    But times change. Now, computers and the industry surrounding them have become such a large part of international business that there has to be some way to separate those applying for the jobs out there.

    Granted, it may seem unfair to those computer user who have been here "since the beginning" - whatever the beginning is for this industry. But, as I've said before, times change. There are, every 3-4 months, a new crop of CS, IT, Comp. Eng, etc degree-holding workers, who want money. Who want jobs. And there aren't necessarily enough to go around.

    What is a business to do? Certification allows businesses (not just "upstart die-in-three-months .com's either), there are many large corporations who value a certificate, to choose more selectively who they will expense jobs and money upon.

    There is a worry about certification allowing people with little-to-no experience to work in areas where they are not necessarily trained to work. Certification is not a guarantee of mastery of a system, and no one knows everything about a particular OS, hardware, software package, etc anyway. There are people who get hired everyday, who have worked for years in a field, who find out on the first day on a new job they don't know as much as they thought they did.

    Certification is not out to push aside the knowledgable users and administrators of computer networks. It is not a ploy to allow new-workers into a workplace, while throwing the old ones out. It is merely a way to provide businesses more criteria in hiring. Almost all businesses that I know of will gladly pay for a certification course for their employees. If there is such a worry about certification-holding newbies coming in and destroying a precious way-of-life, get certifified yourself!

    Thanks for reading this to the end. Advance apologies for my lack of conciseness and lucidity, at times.

    wesley
  • it's about establishing a base level competancy. obviosly someone with 5 years is going to be more experienced that someone who went to a boot camp - a company can tell that by looking at your resume.
  • a cdrom boot of win2k installation would allow you to delete, re-create and format an NTFS partition. you dont have to fdisk from linux
  • I did play baritone in college, but certainly not the fecal variety ;-) If Linux is too young for certifications, then why are they appearing in the marketplace with the backing of OS luminaries and high-$$$ corporate sponsorships? Linux has been instrumental in popularizing GNU and other OS software to the point of commoditization. That's a Good Thing, regardless of your level of expertise (or humility). Along with that popularity come would-be implementors looking for skilled admins. Given that many such companies are just getting into the Unix world with Linux, is starting with applicants' certifications so wrong? To paraphrase your premis, you seem to say that an OS must have an extremely high level of reliability and uptime in a "corporate environment" (pick your own definition) in order to warrant certified administrators. We've had lots of certification programs from lots of vendors for products that don't fit that description. So why is it different if the certification is for Linux?
  • . . .is that lots of people, and more importantly, lots of companies have bought into it.

    Case in point. A few months ago, I was job hunting. A headhunter called me up about a certain position. I had all the quals. . .but their HR droid shot me down, because I wasn't an MCSE.

    Oddly enough, in my new position, we work with that company. And they've borrowed me numerous times to fix what their wet-behind-the-ears, just-got-my-MCSE PFY couldn't do, or botched. Needless to say, it has been a source of many billable hours to my current employer. And all because Company "X"'s HR droid decided that a shiny, new MCSE certification trumped years of experience in the field. . . .

  • As much as I support the realistic need for a certification, but almost none out there I've seen requested for any hardcore Linux certifications.

    Of many corporates i've seen, they would place a Linux geek in an interview, and he would ask you a couple of questions. You'll just need to know your Linux, and let them know that you know linux. That's the difference.

    If you didn't realize, the certifications is just another marketing stunt to bring in more money, and make them write more senseless books. These books like Microsoft guides and Cisco IOS guides are purely the detailed versions of the O/S manpages.

    LOOK at linux -- the manpages are free. You just need a 6ppm printer to print IPchains-HOWTO in less than 5 minutes.

  • Yeah, go to kuro5hin to post your own stuff : )

  • Some reality about Red Hat's Certification Program (Score:3)

    by RobHart ( 70431 ) on Friday September 22, 2000 @05:53AM (#762045)
    I was intimately involved in the initial design of the RHCE (which started back in 1997). Red Hat asked for (and received) extensive community input into the design of the program via a public mailing list. Many of the criticisms of IT certification that are occurring in this discussion were very thoroughly explored in that forum.

    Red Hat required a certification program to handle two related needs

    1) Red Hat needed to know that its partners had sufficient technical expertise to deliver Red Hat Linux to our mutual customers. This is an essentail part of our QA process and our ability to deliver on our promise of quality to our customers.

    2) Companies wishing to deploy Red Hat Linux needed to know that there were high level qualified Linux people who could perform on the job - ie who had the skills and knowledge at a detailed level AND who had shown their ability to produce quality solutions to problems under pressure.

    Resulting directly from the discussions, Red Hat decided that its certification program had to require more than passing a multiple choice exam. We finally settled on a performance based (ie hands on) examination as this is the only real way to test for on the job performance.

    The hands on examination lasts most of a full day and is very tough. You get a 'broken' system and have to find out what is wrong - and fix it, then we break it again and you get to fix it again, and so on.

    Because of this performance based examination, the RHCE is in no way comparable to almost all other IT certification programs (the exception being the Cisco program which is also performance based). Neither the MSCE nor the CNE have performance based examinations.

    The content and level of knowledge of the RHCE was also determined through the community discussion process. The archives of this discussion are extensive and detailed - for example, including discussion of the level of detailed sendmail config knowledge we should require.

    I would agree that much IT certification is of very limited value. It was for this specific reason that Red Hat, with the benefit of extensive community involvement, decided to design the RHCE the way it did.

    I hope this helps to clarify some of the discussion that is occurring here.
  • I seem to remember seeing that on Saturday Night Live...
  • >Before MCSEs existed certifications were quite difficult to obtain, requiring a lot of study, coupled with hands-on practical
    >experience to back-up the study.

    Sorry, while I'm not a true old-timer in this business, before all of the horror stories about MCSEs, there was constant bitching about ``paper CNAs" -- people who read the NetWare manuals, passed the tests, but could not tell an Ethernet card from a Token ring card to save their lives.

    The paper CNAs of yore had something of an excuse, though: in the late 1980's/early 1990, very few people had hands-on experinece creating or maintaining a LAN. Nowadays, any person with a modicum of motivation can build a LAN at home for the cost of a computer upgrade.

    With computers available for under US$1000, & the MS software of your choice available for less than another $1000, there is really no excuse for paper MCSEs: if you can't spend that kind of money & time learning the software (but can spend those two on an MSCE bootcamp & test), you have no justification to be paid to fix or upgrade other people's computers.

    Geoff

  • Red Hat is charging on the order of $2500 for a week-long course; $750 for the exam alone i think they expact it to be a significant revenue source for them oh, by the way, if you want your software to be "Red Hat Certified" you have to have a Red Hat Certified Engineer working with you go open source!
  • We should be hiring collage students .....

    Hmm, I think if we had too many collage [ipdg.org] students, the computers might look pretty - but would they run OK?
    - Derwen

  • that is why employers take into account a number of factors, not just experience, certification etc..
  • running a linux box at home (sendmail, apache, bind etc...) is exactly what got me my current job
  • of course you need command line switches to get all the running processes, but they asked you not to give that
  • Score: X (Informative)Stefan, refraining himself from falling into a further rant about stupidity levels and where he expects them.
    It takes a lot of brains to enjoy satire, humor and wit-
  • I wrote a really nice artical about how to write Slashdot articals that don't get rejected...
    and thies guys rejected it..
    You bastards....

    PS. I'm kidding...
    PPS. If it's off topic it's spam.. if it's spam they don't know what they are doing.. don't even bother
  • That'll teach me not to Preview! Ok, take 2:

    Score:X (Informative)

    What the fuck? Informative?? Who is so out of touch with reality, and too stupid to check up on his ignorance, to rate that comment as "Informative"? Furrfu!

    Stefan, still refraining from pointing fingers.
    It takes a lot of brains to enjoy satire, humor and wit-

  • Yep, but they sell.

    And let's face it, "a serious software engineer" should have no trouble getting one. If I had the time and money, I'd get one, as it would probably get me a 7-10K raise at a different job.

    NecroPuppy
  • taking a certification when you have already years of experience is a waste of time. It's when you start in a field that you should aim at a certification asap. If you just learn something on the job, you risk to have experience with only a subset of the field, projects rarely address everything a language/platform/OS... has to offer. Courses offer a wider range, but when you go for a certification, you are forced to go into the depth of things and really master them. The point is: learning towards an exam gives the best learning curve. It sets clear objectives, keeps you focused and lets you advance at a better pace. While studying, do an exam simulation from time to time, it can be a good objective progress indicator. When you're ready, take the exam: then you cannot fool yourself, and see if you're "ready for production". Of course all this requires that the exam is of good quality. I am not MS oriented, so cannot speak of MCSE (but I can imagine :-) ) but IMO, e.g. the SUN and IBM exams worked very well for this purpose.
  • what salary premium could be put on one of these certifications?

    That is, I make X units/year. With certification C, I can expect to pull in X+Y. The premium on C is then Y.

    Rate the certs according to Y and your talking my language.

  • Certification. (Score:4)

    by Talonius ( 97106 ) on Friday September 22, 2000 @01:42AM (#762059)
    Everyone bitches because "certifications" mean nothing. I don't believe that's quite true; a certification means nothing if you check out the braindumps, memorize the questions and particular answers, and pass by the skin of your teeth. It can mean you DO have the basic experience necessary to perform a job if you learn your stuff and pass with real knowledge using real experience.

    I have several certifications. I have them because I wasn't getting respect in my particular field while looking for a job. (Yep, partially Microsoft, but also partially Solaris.) I have yet to score below 95% on a certification test. My biggest beef with the cert tests is that they're entry to mid level; they don't cover complex things. (For some really tough questions, see brainbench at http://www.brainbench.com.)

    Anyway, Linux, CompTIA, Novell, or Sun, all cert tests are limited by what they can offer for a reasonable price. Cisco is about the only test that isn't abused yet, and I've started hearing commercials for "CCNA Boot Camps" (do me a favor; don't do a boot camp and come configure my router, okay?). However, the CCIE certification, a prize still, is done in a lab environment. Of course, the CCIE lab is over $1k last time I checked. There's a big diff between $100 and $1000. Everyone else is multiple choice or fill in the blank. (Although Microsoft's emulator tests are actually getting pretty good.) Just like the SAT or ACT, you've got a 20% chance of getting most questions right just by guessing.

    Oh well.. you either recognize a cert for what it is, or you don't. Most of the employers I've been interviewing with recently ARE ASKING LIVE TECH QUESTIONS, despite the certs. The cert gets you in the door, the live tech makes sure you do know your stuff.

    -- Talonius
  • Pimply Faced Yout. Go to the register.co.uk and search for the BOFH (Bastard Operator from Hell) for more info.

    Fist Prost

    "We're talking about a planet of helpdesks."
  • Slackware is work (This spoken by a Slackware fan)
    The point of Debian is to be secure the point of RedHat is to be "IT compatable" (if you will) to get Linux smushed in those companys who use Windows becouse Microsoft sent them a pamptlet telling them to.

    Far to many companys have a clueless manager in charg of the technology. He runs on buzzwords not on real technology. RedHat is simply trying to push the Linux buzzword into those managers brains so they can sell product in Microsofts domain.

    It's not good becouse this is the house Microsoft built.. It's a sad state of affares where people who normally wouldn't be allowed anywhere near a computer are in charg of the tech department.

    This is the RedHat nitch.. makes sence that RedHat wants to own the idiots. The rest of us want to exterminate same.
    But exterminating them isn't a good idea...
    So let RedHat be bizzord complient...

    We should be hiring collage students who learnned Unix not MSCE who learnned nothing at all...
    But for now certen ITs are looking for MSCEs when they should look for PHDs

  • What about certifications of hardware or of software? Humans have a tendency to self-improve...

    Never mind that this is one step closer to having a Driver's License for programming, potentially making 'open' systems less so. Why not have university courses labelled simply "Industry Studies" where topics such as certifiction on XYZ system may be covered? Why should an XYZ Certification be a possible requirement rather than a college degree? Why should employers be encouraged to be clueless and/or lazy by looking for this sort of certification?

    Yeah, I know, go read the series. But somehow I'm not too interested in it for the above reasons.

  • Before someone cuts my legs off, the RHCE is lab based as well.

    It's price tag is also $700 to $800 I believe.

    -- Talonius
    (Oh, and before you complain about me complaining about pricing, I pay for all my own crap and don't get paid diddly squat. :-))

  • I write and teach so I keep up with the current certifications.

    I've taken the Sair exams (at LinuxWorld) and the LPI 101 and 102 beta exams. I thought I'd post my thoughts in case anyone was curious.

    The Sair exams are not that good. They ask questions that are NOT important in the real world. Things such as "Who wrote this piece of software?". Well..I know I never have had to type the author's name in to get something to work. I also didn't care for their ethics exam. There should not be questions about who can view someones email on a technical exam. This is up to the company you work for and the laws in your area or country.

    The LPI exams were MUCH better. They were more hands on with a number of "type in the command to do this and this, include all options". All of their questions were right on with things people actually do, and need to know. I'm anxious to see their other two levels.

    I haven't done the RHCE yet but I will soon. I love to see lab exams. I got my MCSE about 6 years ago, long before study guides and transcender tests. That was also before Microsoft dumbed down the tests. MANY good MCSE's have asked Microsoft for a serious lab exam for YEARS and they haven't done it. They desperately need it.
  • Certifications may be useless to people with experience, but not to a young person trying to get a head-start in the field. I'm 17 and just got my CCNA, and without it there would be no way for me to get experience (where I live) on anything dealing with a network (unless you count at home). Everyone seems to get upset about certifications because they have experience and they see people who get certifications who have no experience and are getting paid more than them (it does happen doesn't it?). Why not just get a certification yourself if you have the know-how?
  • My real concern is that I don't know what someone can be certified in. In many cases people persue certification to get onto the IT career ladder in a support role (ok this view may be very biased due to the MCSE's I've met, and I suspect it doesn't hold for Oracle/Cisco type certs) - but its true.

    As such I'd expect certification to teach people how to perform basic routine tasks (possibly by rote - it doesn't matter as long as they are done correctly). Understanding of the platform can then be gained while working in a commercial environment under the instruction of someone senior - paying their way as an extra set of hands.

    Real troubleshooting skills come from a fundemental understanding of the platform involved and strong problem solving skills. Something which I don't belive any 100% taught course ever pretends to provide.

    Now given that there are significant differences between distributions regarding:

    * package management tools
    * configuration file locations
    * basic install components
    * critical library versions (glibc2 et al)
    * etc...

    Its very hard to see what linux certification can do to be meaningful to a basic support role - it will either have to be very distribution specific or sufficiently general as to be inaccessible to junior staff.

    So in the meantime I suspect that its a bit of CV candy for the attendees and an important learning experiance for those designing and running the courses.

    Role on the LSB!
  • It's funny, there are people at work who have no experiance on networking. There is one person at my office that is a brand new MSCE who *HAS NEVER* networked a single computer. She has never installed NT server on a single PC, and thinks that unix is a program that runs on DOS. She is also A+, and net+ certified(What ever that means). I on the otherhand, have no certifications, and learned by trial and error. I have a pritty big network at my house, and I'm constantly building and deconstructing servers. I'm also one of her network admins. I think that the core of the problem is that people get greedy, and that most I.T Managers are not technical people. I moved up in the company (I started in a non technical posision) but I would always ask my network admin questions about how to implement things. I also offered to work for free doing anything just so that I could see what he was doing. This brand new MCSE knows that her certification is useless, and after discussing it with her, she tells me that she fells ripped off by the company that gave her the cram class. I rembember when being A+ ment somthing(in 96 there were two people in my office that had it) , and MCSE's were considered bad asses. I hope that the linux certs don't become useless in a few years.
  • Nowadays almost anyone can become certified by spending enough money, without even once touching the system that they are certified in

    Not everywhere.
    Take a look at the RHCE exams - they're 66% practical.
    Debugging non-working systems, installing a system that provides certain services, hardening security on that box...

    There's no way you can manage it without having used Linux.
  • I never met paper CNAs, mainly due to not working in the Netware field at that moment in time. We becamae a Netware shop a few years later than that.

    As for purchasing software for self-training, you don't even need to spend $1000 on the software. MS are now producing Windows2000 training kits, which contain study guides for the 4 mandatory exams and a 120-day copy of Windows2000 Server. I saw a copy last week for less than 130UKP.

    When I get paid this month I'll pick up a copy.

  • it's about establishing a base level competancy. obviosly someone with 5 years is going to be more experienced that someone who went to a boot camp - a company can tell that by looking at your resume. Experience isn't necessarily a measure of competence either. Sometimes, 5 years experience simply means the person did stupid things for 5 years and never bothered learning why those things were stupid.
  • "I thought I'd take a minute and toot my own horn and mention my article on the O'Reilly Network..."

    Yeah, nice, nice. What kind of horn are you tooting, a butt-trumpet? Definetly a fecal baritone.

    IMHBNSHO (In my honest but not so humble opinion), Linux is still too young to deserve a certification course. First, it must be certified that Linux can run very close to 100% of the time, in a corporate environment, without requiring a squadron of bible thumpers in the mail room to storm the refrigerated rooms every day. So far, that goal has been far from fulfilled. Web servers around the world still have suspendered, snorting nerds at a terminal feeding in hacked and re-hashed scripts (be they Java, Perl, or PHP). A true "set-and-forget" Linux server is still far from reality; at least, for now.

  • I've been working with Linux (as a hobby mostly) for about the last 6 years. I have a MS in Computer Science. However, very little of my actual work experience uses Linux. So, eventually, when I leave my current job, I'd like to do some software development under Linux. The problem is I'm not really getting enough experience in my current job doing Linux stuff.

    My solution to the problem was to get my RHCE certification as well as start a website for people studying for the RHCE certification (www.rhce2b.com [rhce2b.com]). As I develop software for my website (mostly in Perl) I'm gaining experience that hopefully employers will value when I look for a new job. I think that there are many people who use Linux mainly as a hobby, that are stuck with Windows NT at work and would like to switch to a job where they could do more work with Linux. The problem is that it is difficult to gain the kind of experience that shows up on a resume.

    You can always do Linux as a hobby, but it is difficult for an employer to tell if you really know what you are doing or not when your resume has no direct experience. Hence, for people in my position, I think getting a certification such as the RHCE certification could be useful. But, at the same time, people should do everything they can to increase their experience in other ways as well. That way,you have both the certification and the skills, as opposed ot just having the certification.

  • Unfortunatly for me .. (Score:3)

    by NumberSyx ( 130129 ) on Friday September 22, 2000 @06:51AM (#762073) Journal

    Unfortunatly for me a cerification is very neccessary. I have been using Linux for a very long time and have helped a couple of charitable organizations setup Linux based networks as well as my own somewhat complex home network. I am also a Computer Technician in the Windows World, with several years of front line support experiance. My employer is starting to use Linux internally and has posted various jobs for which I have applied. The problem I run into is my resume goes to HR first who reviews it for appropriate skill sets and trainability, and then I get an email which states I have no formal education in this field nor a certification to prove real world skills and my resume will not be forwarded to the hiring manager and they ended up hiring some schmuck with an MCSE and on his first day of work I have to go down and show him how to start X.

    So what to do ? I have dropped a $1500 on formal training, to learn things I already know, $200 more for an LPI Level I certification, which I passed very easily and I have even went so far as to take the BrainBench certifications. Next time I get an email like that, I walk.


    Jesus died for sombodies sins, but not mine.

  • RHCE (Score:1)

    by Kaine ( 96514 )
    I'd like to comment about mr. Jeff Dean's article about RHCE certification, mainly by saying that printer and Windows stations availability for tests depends on the site you are taking your course.

    Personnally, I passed my certification in Nieuwegein, Netherlands, with Global Knowledge, and all we needed to test lpr and Samba was there.

    I think that without test platforms, not only the test would be harder, but the knowledge acquired would be hypothetical and therefore unreliable.

    Cheers.
  • Bowie:

    Slashdot is not the place to continually advertise your website. Please respect common courtesy: Slashdot is a news/rumour site, not your personal playpen.

    I think what I was trying to say was "fuck off and die."
  • Who is so out of touch with reality, and too stupid to check up on his ignorance, to rate that comment as "Informative"?

    Yeah, that's for sure. Everyone ought to know that Windows 2000 can't handle ext2 drives and therefore you must fdisk from Linux before attempting to install Windows 2000.

    -Brent

  • MCLE? (Score:5)

    by Dreamland ( 212064 ) on Friday September 22, 2000 @12:55AM (#762077)
    Whatever made you miss Microsoft Certified Linux Engineer in that list?
    Excerpt from Microsoft MCLE Core Requirements Training Kit:
    Q: "How would you proceed after you discover a workstation running Linux on your LAN"

    A: "rm -rf / and install Windows 2000 Professional"
  • I have rarely met a certified person who is worth their salt, and know several very good networking and server system designers who have no certifications at all. My feeling is that certifications help CEOs and CIOs feel good, because then they're not at the mercy of technology which left them in the dust long ago. They can trust someone else, anyone else, it doesn't matter as long as THEY don't take the blame, for hiring someone who turns out to be an idiot. In fact, I scoff as much as possible at mentions by clients and associates of certification programs - I'm trying to avoid the buzzword-compliant world, and teach others to do the same.

  • Certification is a waste of time (Score:3)

    by flatpack ( 212454 ) on Friday September 22, 2000 @12:59AM (#762079)

    The idea of certification is that it provides a guaranteed level of competance in a certain area, is a nice one and all that, but it's hardly one that has a place in the modern computing industry. Like all training and courses, it merely provides an illusion of competance which can lull employers in a false sense of security - no "certified professional" is worth anything without the real-world experiance that comes from being on the job.

    In many ways, having a certificate is like being part of a trade union - it provides a group which seeks to push its own members foward regardless of whether they're the right people for the job. And like trade unions, this attitude is the downfall of a capitalist economy based on the cut and thrust of a free market, including a free market for employment.

    I'd rather hire someone willing to learn than some wet behind the ears fool with a Red Hat certificate who thinks they've already learnt everything.

  • I thought I'd take a minute and toot my own horn Nice if you know the yoga.
  • almost all OSS gets changed drastically (esp. linux), why bother having certification for it? A linux-using company will be able to sit down with an applicant and see if and how linux literate the applicant much easier than trusting a quickly outdated standard
  • I've feared things like this happening too, particularly from reading Linux newsgroups and a UK Linux magazine.

    There's a lot out there who only know how to configure a Linux system from the Red Hat Python GUI scripts (or whatever they use today - the last Redhat I touched was 5.x, and someone stole my CD). They've absolutley no idea of what is going on underneath, where to add things, and so on. All they want is an answer to their problems, yet they are scared against trying things themselves.

    And now you can be a certified RedHat point-click-droolite. Shudder. Security holes everywhere!

  • true, but serious software engineers don't usually make the hiring decisions.

    go to any job search site and look for MCSE, plently of jobs. do the same for linux certification...

  • Yes the corporitisim is distrubing.

    But isn't it more disturbing seeing Bill Gates competing in the Swimming events.

    You can't miss him...swims fast but looks a lot like John Denver
  • What I really want to know are

    1)Are there any major employers that are actively seeking people with Linux certification

    2) Will employers pay more when hiring prospective employees that have a recognised Linux certification


  • The more I read about Linux certifications the more disturbed I get.

    As if we don't have enough to worry about with boneheaded MSCEs who crammed just enough to pass their multiple choice tests becoming system admins, we now have to deal Linux admins who will soon be "Red Hat certified". Am I the only one that is disturbed by Red Hat's Microsoft-like tactics such as their so called "Red Hat network" which is a pay service less functional than Debian's apt-get and a cron job?

    Soon we'll have Linux administrators who are completely clueless outside the Red Hat sandbox, who cannot do the more intricate tasks that *nix administrators need to perform without handholding. This is especially frightening when one realizes Red Hat is the most insecure Linux distro out there [securityfocus.com].
  • While I agree that RHCE may have people trapped in the redhat sandbox unable to cope with non redhat distros, this certainly is not the case for LPI or GNU Sair. GNU Sair has levels of certification as does LPI and they are vendor neutral. The GNU Sair seems to be a bit more in depth certification of the two. I highly doubt you'll see paper MLCE's like you see paper MCSE's. The *nix learning curve scares those types of people away. People who learn linux do some for the love of the OS, not because they saw a "make $50k now" add in the paper. In addition, the MLCE is GNU Sair's top level. The lowest level, LCA, is more difficult to attain than an MCSE. By the time someone is LPIC-3 or MLCE, they'll know their shit.

    I've also seen sample questions from these exams which range from easy to difficult. Some of the questions depend on your actually having experience to be able to answer the questions. I don't believe the linux exams are heading down the MCSE highway. We won't see exams retired every two years - I mean *nix doesn't change THAT much! Plus, this gives linux guru's credibility in the "eyes" of companies. In the end, we know, that experience is the best teacher, not a piece of paper. However, this piece of paper is going to take more work to earn than the MCSE. I guarantee it!
  • what ever happened to john katz? slashdot has been in need of a really heavily trolled posting for a while, or did slashdotters drive him away for good?
  • Before MCSEs existed certifications were quite difficult to obtain, requiring a lot of study, coupled with hands-on practical experience to back-up the study. Anyone else take the CBE examination?

    Nowadays almost anyone can become certified by spending enough money, without even once touching the system that they are certified in. Some others even have Open-Book examinations. The consequences are often disasterous. I've met some MCSEs, who've obtained them through work (or as post service training for those leaving the British Armed Forces), and one in particular was so utterly clueless I wouldn't trust him with a pocket calculator.

    Things seem to be getting better, though. The Windows 2000 MSCE appears to be more difficult than the previous offering, although I've not looked at the syllabus in detail.

  • Of the certified people I know, about half are competant. Certifications, IMO, are tools to trick HR drones with.

    I failed in a lot of job interviews before I noticed a trend. I have *never* interviewed with an IT person and *not* gotten hired. I don't measure my worth by certifications, but I do feel a personal need for them.

  • Come on, man. As if the troll problem on Slashdot isn't bad enough without somebody posting something on the main page about tooting their own horn.
    --

  • Re:Certification is a waste of time (Score:3)

    by doogles ( 103478 ) on Friday September 22, 2000 @02:36AM (#762092)
    Certification is a waste of time
    [snip]
    no "certified professional" is worth anything without the real-world experiance that comes from being on the job.

    While more often then not the employee with the expert will shine where the paper-certified employee will fail, you have to seriously take in to account on this: Certification often times provides a GREAT path for someone just breaking in to the industry to follow.

    Assuming from your post that you are already in the industry, imagine how daunting it would be to enter. There's just SO MUCH out there. While obviously a lot of people chase certifications for money (check any technical comp.sys group on UseNet; it WILL be littered with "how much can I expect for MCSE + CCNA in the SF area"), I think others recognize it as a great path to get started. In my opinion, Cisco's entry-level and mid-level certification programs (CCNA and CCNP, along the implmementation path) provide a great foundation for starting out and moving ahead in the very daunting internetworking field.

    I reiterate we're not disagreeing--I don't claim "certification==genius" and I don't think most companies approach it like that, either. I DO feel it provides a clear-cut path for the skills you need to master to truly get ahead in that particular niche of the industry.
  • I can see the use of certifications for a inexperienced company hiring a prospective sys-admin. However, what does taking a written prove about a person's computer abilities at all?

    A more accurate method of determining a person's skills in a computer field (or any technology field, for that matter) would be to measure their experience in the field. True mastery of any computer system comes from thousands of hours of fooling around with it.

    you just can't gauge a person's experience/level of intelligence by whether or not they passed a written test, whether the test is about Linux, GNU software, Microsoft, novell, cisco, anything.

  • I have taken the LPI 101,102 beta tests and I only passed 102 tested. The 101 test ask some very out of the way questions like: What command give you a list of all running process with out and command line switches? Stuff I never uses day to day. I have also taken the Brainbench tests ID number 49992. If you go there you many have to loaded it about 5 time to get it, NT is running it. :-)
    If you ask me the Brain Bench's test are more real world.

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