Lennart Poettering's long story short: "`su` is really a broken concept
Declaring established concepts as broken so you can "fix" them.
Su is not a broken concept; it's a long well-established fundamental of BSD Unix/Linux. You need a shell with some commands to be run with additional privileges in the original user's context.
If you need a full login you invoke 'su -' or 'sudo bash -'
Deciding what a full login comprises is the shell's responsibility, not your init system's job.
I've had a job now for about 10 years where a large fraction of the time I wear a software engineer's hat. Looking back now, I can point to a lot of design decisions in the software I work on that made me go "WTF?" when I first saw them as a young'un, but after having to contend with them for a good number of years, and thinking about how I would do them differently, I've come to the conclusion that the original WTF may be ugly and could use some polish, but the decisionmaking that produced it was fundament
its the other way around. we used to have small, simple programs that did not take whole systems to build and gigs of mem to run in. things were easier to understand and concepts were not overdone a hundred times, just because 'reasons'.
now, we have software that can't be debugged well, people who are current software eng's have no attention span to fix bugs or do proper design, older guys who DO remember 'why' are no longer being hired and we can't seem to stand on our giants' shoulders anymore. again, because 'reasons'.
1) The only thing that systemd might do faster is boot. Since Linux servers are not booted that often, that is a trifling advantage, at best. Certainly not worth breaking everything that works.
2) Systemd does not always boot faster. Only under certain circumstances.
3) More resource intensive generally means slower on the same hardware. Systemd may boot faster, but it runs slower.
4) There are ways to improve boot speeds without breaking everything that works.
That's not what I am suggesting. Maybe the analogy was imperfect.
Systemd is like cars compared to horse carriages in early 1900s. They were a not-so-good alternative to the established method. Horse-based transportation was a mature solution which reached its limits, and cars at the time were a worse alternative in most ways.
I say, give it time. See if it would grow into something better. Flinging poo at systemd is like yelling "get a horse!" when seeing a car, back in the 1900s. True at the moment, but in ti
Flinging poo at systemd is like yelling "get a horse!" when seeing a car, back in the 1900s. True at the moment, but in time proven to be shortsighted.
Do you have credible proof that it will be proven to be shortsighted? If not, you might want to say the following, much less exciting statement:
"Flinging poo at systemd might be like yelling "get a horse!" when seeing a car"
Or do you believe in proof by analogy? By this proof methodology, you could have proven in 1944 that there won't be any nuclear bomb explosion next year, because a nuclear bomb is like the proof of Fermat's last theorem - it hasn't been built yet and won't be by next year.
I feel ya there. I'm trying to stay away from the concept of "Get off my lawn", and push more towards education. It is no surprise that a vast majority of the modern investments in technology are "web-based". A lot of people that are coming out of schools now had their first introduction to computing and networks over the "web", and they learned backwards.
There were those of us who saw the evolution of the web "forwards". Who remembers installing the Trumpet Winsock TCP/IP stack on Windows? Because it didn't
Actually, with all the rave around Arduinos, Raspberrys & Co. quite a few people are "learning forwards" again.
Here's a serial TCP/IP 'stack' for example: http://playground.arduino.cc/C... [arduino.cc]
Who remembers installing the Trumpet Winsock TCP/IP stack on Windows?.
Oh god, brrrr... Those were the bad old days. The move from IPX to IP was a nightmare. Now, however, it looks like IPv6 will have a lot of the simplicity that we lost in that transition. The good old days may be returning.
"... Where the youngin's come in and rip up everything..."
Get off my lawn and learn to spell.
I've run an IT *company* now for well over 15 years. Herr P is a bit outspoken but in general I agree with his approach. Some of their design decisions are a bit wacky to my mind but I'm an old fogey in that regard. However I am happy to report that my large herds of Linux boxes are much happier with systemd than they were with an unholy mix of sysvinit, openrc, upstart and other stuff.
However I am happy to report that my large herds of Linux boxes are much happier
When I run *NIX, it is not for the happiness of the machines, but for the happiness of the users and owners. That is a critical difference between *NIX and non-*NIX.
The road to ruin is always in good repair, and the travellers pay the
expense of it.
-- Josh Billings
Bullshit (Score:5, Insightful)
Lennart Poettering's long story short: "`su` is really a broken concept
Declaring established concepts as broken so you can "fix" them.
Su is not a broken concept; it's a long well-established fundamental of BSD Unix/Linux. You need a shell with some commands to be run with additional privileges in the original user's context.
If you need a full login you invoke 'su -' or 'sudo bash -'
Deciding what a full login comprises is the shell's responsibility, not your init system's job.
Hang on a minute... (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, let me explain some of the problems that I've had with su.
Oh wait. I've never had problems with su. Ever. What is up with this???
Re: (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Hang on a minute... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Hang on a minute... (Score:5, Insightful)
its the other way around. we used to have small, simple programs that did not take whole systems to build and gigs of mem to run in. things were easier to understand and concepts were not overdone a hundred times, just because 'reasons'.
now, we have software that can't be debugged well, people who are current software eng's have no attention span to fix bugs or do proper design, older guys who DO remember 'why' are no longer being hired and we can't seem to stand on our giants' shoulders anymore. again, because 'reasons'.
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Yeah. Much like walking being a much simpler way to get anywhere, compared to driving.
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Nothing except that sometimes it's not fast enough.
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Are you trying to imply that systemd is faster? (Score:2)
1) The only thing that systemd might do faster is boot. Since Linux servers are not booted that often, that is a trifling advantage, at best. Certainly not worth breaking everything that works.
2) Systemd does not always boot faster. Only under certain circumstances.
3) More resource intensive generally means slower on the same hardware. Systemd may boot faster, but it runs slower.
4) There are ways to improve boot speeds without breaking everything that works.
Re: (Score:2)
That's not what I am suggesting.
Maybe the analogy was imperfect.
Systemd is like cars compared to horse carriages in early 1900s. They were a not-so-good alternative to the established method.
Horse-based transportation was a mature solution which reached its limits, and cars at the time were a worse alternative in most ways.
I say, give it time. See if it would grow into something better. Flinging poo at systemd is like yelling "get a horse!" when seeing a car, back in the 1900s. True at the moment, but in ti
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You mean it's the sensible thing to do?
When systemd reaches the level of, say, a 1930s car then get back to me.
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Flinging poo at systemd is like yelling "get a horse!" when seeing a car, back in the 1900s. True at the moment, but in time proven to be shortsighted.
Do you have credible proof that it will be proven to be shortsighted? If not, you might want to say the following, much less exciting statement:
"Flinging poo at systemd might be like yelling "get a horse!" when seeing a car"
Or do you believe in proof by analogy? By this proof methodology, you could have proven in 1944 that there won't be any nuclear bomb explosion next year, because a nuclear bomb is like the proof of Fermat's last theorem - it hasn't been built yet and won't be by next year.
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Apparently some people enjoy driving from the living room to the WC when they need to take a leak.
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I don't have a driver's license.
And you of course missed the point.
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This might sound strange, but I sure wish the younger generations would get over themselves and "grow up".
No, I think this more has to do with a combination of hubris and Red Hat capturing a number of open source utility projects.
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This might sound strange, but I sure wish the younger generations would get over themselves and "grow up".
No, I think this more has to do with a combination of hubris and Red Hat capturing a number of open source utility projects.
Yes.
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It is no surprise that a vast majority of the modern investments in technology are "web-based". A lot of people that are coming out of schools now had their first introduction to computing and networks over the "web", and they learned backwards.
There were those of us who saw the evolution of the web "forwards". Who remembers installing the Trumpet Winsock TCP/IP stack on Windows? Because it didn't
Re: (Score:2)
Here's a serial TCP/IP 'stack' for example: http://playground.arduino.cc/C... [arduino.cc]
Re: (Score:1)
Who remembers installing the Trumpet Winsock TCP/IP stack on Windows?.
Oh god, brrrr... Those were the bad old days. The move from IPX to IP was a nightmare. Now, however, it looks like IPv6 will have a lot of the simplicity that we lost in that transition. The good old days may be returning.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
"... Where the youngin's come in and rip up everything ..."
Get off my lawn and learn to spell.
I've run an IT *company* now for well over 15 years. Herr P is a bit outspoken but in general I agree with his approach. Some of their design decisions are a bit wacky to my mind but I'm an old fogey in that regard. However I am happy to report that my large herds of Linux boxes are much happier with systemd than they were with an unholy mix of sysvinit, openrc, upstart and other stuff.
Putting the imperative in
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However I am happy to report that my large herds of Linux boxes are much happier
When I run *NIX, it is not for the happiness of the machines, but for the happiness of the users and owners. That is a critical difference between *NIX and non-*NIX.