The break even point at which someone would otherwise be paying me enough money to otherwise work in COBOL is, I think, somewhat higher than what would be sufficient for me to experience levels of guilt about taking unfair advantage of someone's ignorance about what a job is objectively worth while I otherwise might try to enjoy the money.
Either I would have to blow through the money very quickly so that the guilt similarly didn't last long, in which case the wage would not make a difference significant
> someone's ignorance about what a job is objectively worth
If Bob saves the taxpayers $74 million, how much is that objectively worth? Some would say saving $74 million is worth about $74 million.
I recently talked to two companies, Lockheed Martin (missile guidance group) and DTCC. If I fix a bug that would cause missiles to occasionally strike completely the wrong target, how much is that objectively worth?
DTCC processes billions of dollars transactions each day. If do work that prevents them from goi
Here's a thought - If someone says to me "This project will make $34 million if it's successful. It's easily worth $300K to me to save this project", who the F am I to to say they don't know what they are talking about?
I would think it has less to with what you think about them than it has to do with how you will feel about yourself afterwards. You don't have to live with them after the job is done, you do have to live with yourself. Not everyone wants to live with the feeling that they took unfair advantage of on how much a job should have really been worth based not on how much money the project generated in the aftermath, but just on the scope of the work that was to actually be done.
If I've got $1,000 worth of "I don't want to", if avoiding it is worth $1,000 to me, and getting it done is worth $10,000 to them, I figure fair value is anywhere between those two numbers. I don't have a problem with that.
Actually I kinda think one would be being mean to turn down $3,000 in such a situation. Being selfish.
The job is more important than $3K to them. The $3K is more important to me than avoiding the job is. We would BOTH be happier if I did the job for $3K. If I refuse the job, I'm forcing th
You've moved the goalposts here from the original position of paying someone an excessive amount of money relative to the actual scope of work to be done to being a perhaps more reasonable offering.
But at that point, it also has to be worth *MY* time...
I do not like COBOL. Not one bit. My original point was that the amount which might have otherwise made it worth my own time to be willing to work in COBOL again is larger than what would be reasonable to expect someone to pay for the scope of work to
Okay, you're saying I moved the goalposts because $3,000 / hour is reasonable.
I'm asking how you're defining what the thing is "objectively worth", other than by supply and demand.
I'm also saying I personally wouldn't feel the least bit guilty about helping someone who needs help. If they want to pay me $X, so that they don't lose $X,000, personally what would make me feel guilty would be turning them down, leaving then to lose a thousand times as much because I refused to help.
I had misinterpreted your meaning above. I thought you had meant that the cost of the entire job was $3k, not $3k per hour.
However, at $3k/hour, the argument I made against accepting an excessive amount still holds.
As I see it, turning down an offer of $3k an hour is doing them a favor when they could get someone else for far less than even a tenth of that. There is simply no real-world scenario where that would not be the case. The hypothetical scenario that I am somehow a person's last and only h
> when they could get someone else for far less than even a tenth of that. There is simply no real-world scenario where that would not be the case. The hypothetical scenario that I am somehow a person's last and only hope
I suppose that's where we're seeing things differently. It's not at all unusual for me to be in a situation where the customer does NOT have someone else they trust to do it properly, available right now, at a low price. Actually I just recently got a call from an old customer I hadn't t
If a programming job takes only an hour to complete, then the scope of work is similarly not that large.
I could not, in good conscience, accept payment from someone for a job that was so far in excess of what would be reasonable to charge someone for the work that was actually done, regardless of how much money it saves them or what it would have cost them to deal with otherwise. Such details can impact the urgency of the work, and in turn, costs can be adjusted upwards to compensate for delays in gett
In my engineering and managerial experience, hearing a potential employee or contractor self-justify this way hints that their work won't be worth paying for and is worth a warning to the HR department not to consider them for other roles.
It may have evaded your attention that I was not endeavoring to justify anything, nor was I putting myself out there as a potential contractor or employee.
I don't like COBOL. That's just a personal preference. In theory, that preference could be bought, as I am not ethically opposed to using COBOL, I just don't like the language.
But because the amount of money I'd probably have to be offerred to be willing to overlook that preference would be high enough to give me cause to feel guilty about taking a
If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith.
-- Albert Einstein
Finally the wait is over! (Score:1)
I waited for decades, decades to finally be able to work with COBOL on Raspberry Pi ... oh wait.
Seriously in the current market why would anyone half decent at coding would start working on COBOL projects?
Re: (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:0, Troll)
What if you are not a prostitute?
Re:Finally the wait is over! (Score:5, Funny)
This is the key of some very, very old jokes.
Would you write Cobol code for $1,000,000 ?
Would you do it for $20?
We've established what you are, now we're negotiating a price.
Re: (Score:2)
Guess the moderatrolls are just forever too young to have matured past puberty. :)
Re: (Score:3)
The break even point at which someone would otherwise be paying me enough money to otherwise work in COBOL is, I think, somewhat higher than what would be sufficient for me to experience levels of guilt about taking unfair advantage of someone's ignorance about what a job is objectively worth while I otherwise might try to enjoy the money.
Either I would have to blow through the money very quickly so that the guilt similarly didn't last long, in which case the wage would not make a difference significant
Objectively worth? (Score:3)
> someone's ignorance about what a job is objectively worth
If Bob saves the taxpayers $74 million, how much is that objectively worth? Some would say saving $74 million is worth about $74 million.
I recently talked to two companies, Lockheed Martin (missile guidance group) and DTCC. If I fix a bug that would cause missiles to occasionally strike completely the wrong target, how much is that objectively worth?
DTCC processes billions of dollars transactions each day. If do work that prevents them from goi
Re: Objectively worth? (Score:2)
Here's a thought -
If someone says to me "This project will make $34 million if it's successful. It's easily worth $300K to me to save this project", who the F am I to to say they don't know what they are talking about?
Re: (Score:2)
Re: Objectively worth? (Score:2)
If I've got $1,000 worth of "I don't want to", if avoiding it is worth $1,000 to me, and getting it done is worth $10,000 to them, I figure fair value is anywhere between those two numbers. I don't have a problem with that.
Actually I kinda think one would be being mean to turn down $3,000 in such a situation. Being selfish.
The job is more important than $3K to them.
The $3K is more important to me than avoiding the job is. We would BOTH be happier if I did the job for $3K.
If I refuse the job, I'm forcing th
Re: (Score:2)
You've moved the goalposts here from the original position of paying someone an excessive amount of money relative to the actual scope of work to be done to being a perhaps more reasonable offering.
But at that point, it also has to be worth *MY* time...
I do not like COBOL. Not one bit. My original point was that the amount which might have otherwise made it worth my own time to be willing to work in COBOL again is larger than what would be reasonable to expect someone to pay for the scope of work to
Re: Objectively worth? (Score:2)
Okay, you're saying I moved the goalposts because $3,000 / hour is reasonable.
I'm asking how you're defining what the thing is "objectively worth", other than by supply and demand.
I'm also saying I personally wouldn't feel the least bit guilty about helping someone who needs help. If they want to pay me $X, so that they don't lose $X,000, personally what would make me feel guilty would be turning them down, leaving then to lose a thousand times as much because I refused to help.
So there is no amount of mon
Re: (Score:2)
I had misinterpreted your meaning above. I thought you had meant that the cost of the entire job was $3k, not $3k per hour.
However, at $3k/hour, the argument I made against accepting an excessive amount still holds.
As I see it, turning down an offer of $3k an hour is doing them a favor when they could get someone else for far less than even a tenth of that. There is simply no real-world scenario where that would not be the case. The hypothetical scenario that I am somehow a person's last and only h
Re: Objectively worth? (Score:2)
> when they could get someone else for far less than even a tenth of that. There is simply no real-world scenario where that would not be the case. The hypothetical scenario that I am somehow a person's last and only hope
I suppose that's where we're seeing things differently.
It's not at all unusual for me to be in a situation where the customer does NOT have someone else they trust to do it properly, available right now, at a low price. Actually I just recently got a call from an old customer I hadn't t
Re: (Score:2)
If a programming job takes only an hour to complete, then the scope of work is similarly not that large.
I could not, in good conscience, accept payment from someone for a job that was so far in excess of what would be reasonable to charge someone for the work that was actually done, regardless of how much money it saves them or what it would have cost them to deal with otherwise. Such details can impact the urgency of the work, and in turn, costs can be adjusted upwards to compensate for delays in gett
Re: Objectively worth? (Score:2)
My other reply was too wordy. Let me try being more clear and concise.
Them: I'll lose $35 million unless you help me. I'll pay you $20,000 to help me for a week!
Not me: Nope, you're gonna have to lose $35 million. I'm not going to help.
If I did that, I think I would be an asshole.
Re: Objectively worth? (Score:2)
If Bob saves the taxpayers $74 million, how much is that objectively worth? Some would say saving $74 million is worth about $74 million.
No.
Spending $74 million dollars to save $74 million dollars is not a worthwhile activity.
Would you spend $10 to buy a one-time-use $10 coupon?
Re: (Score:2)
In my engineering and managerial experience, hearing a potential employee or contractor self-justify this way hints that their work won't be worth paying for and is worth a warning to the HR department not to consider them for other roles.
Re: (Score:2)
It may have evaded your attention that I was not endeavoring to justify anything, nor was I putting myself out there as a potential contractor or employee.
I don't like COBOL. That's just a personal preference. In theory, that preference could be bought, as I am not ethically opposed to using COBOL, I just don't like the language.
But because the amount of money I'd probably have to be offerred to be willing to overlook that preference would be high enough to give me cause to feel guilty about taking a