If it's laptop ready, it should work. If it doesn't work, then it isn't ready.
These posts always surprise me, because I've been running Linux on an old IBM TP-600E for years, with never a problem at all. I guess I didn't know that it wasn't "ready", or surely I wouldn't have dared such a thing. Should I have been experiencing difficulties? Is there something wrong with me or my laptop? My desktop was running Linux long before it was "ready" for that, too...
Ever tried to install a "pure" Windows XP on a laptop lately? You probably run into the same problems as with a one-size-fits-all Linux distribution.
As I mentioned some time ago, my Thinkpad T40p came with a customized version of SuSE 9.1 pro. This is what I would say is a ready for the laptop linux distribution. You simply put the the disk in your DVD drive, answer 2-3 short questions at the beginning regarding the partitions and amount of space you want to use (or simply go with the defaults), click ok and off you go.
Just like using a recovery Windows XP CD, all hardware modules are installed and configured, plus a whole bunch of usefull applications for e-mail, WWW, office applications.
I had a lot of trouble installing XP from a "normal" installation CD on my old T21, which came with a Windows 98 recovery CD, and which I wanted to upgrade.
Of course, the FC3 installer shouldn't just have displayed a black screen. But this whole question if Linux is ready for the laptop isn't fair if you compare an unmodified Linux distribution with Windows recovery CDs explicitly made for your computer model.
Funny thing is, Fedora Core 3 worked fine the first time on my Dell laptop. So did FC2 in 2004. I guess Linux has been ready for the laptop for some time, just not the author's laptop.
So, by defenition, if it works on your laptop then it is "laptop ready." Not likely! If a distro is ready for the laptop, then it should work OK on the vast majority of laptops, not just the one that you happen to have.
Also from TFA: Finally, I downloaded SuSE Linux 9.1, both the Live Boot and the full install. What a pleasant surprise. Everything in both versions worked right out-of-the-box, sound and WiFi included. As a bonus, the 9.1 distro is a 2.6 kernel, so I wasn't sacrificing the latest kernel features to get hardware compatibility. SuSE also had the smoothest, slickest install procedure.
Not sure about you, but I don't really have the time to try every single distribution available in the hope that one of them will work with everything on my laptop.
He also makes a good point about closed source drivers. As much as it pains people here to hear it, I (as a user) don't really care how the driver was developed if it turns into a simple difference between having a laptop with something working or not working.
He also makes a good point about closed source drivers. As much as it pains people here to hear it, I (as a user) don't really care how the driver was developed if it turns into a simple difference between having a laptop with something working or not working.
Exactly. I have no problem at all with binary-only drivers, on the conditions that the vendor doesn't charge extra for them and updates them as frequently as they update the Windows drivers. IMHO, working drivers are part of what I paid for when
Linux frowns on binary-only, closed-source drivers for a reason: they decrease the overall kernel quality if nobody else can help debug them. Nvidia's closed-source driver is fine, until its doesn't fucking work. Then what?
And this is kernel space we're talking about, so this means that your machine keeps crashing, hard, when it fucks up. And nobody can fix it, except the vendor, who "updates them as frequently as they update the Windows drivers", which means about twice a year, no more than four times total over the life of the product.
This is NOT good enough. The Linux kernel changes much more frequently and drastically than Windows, and driver maintainers are expected to keep up with the kernel or have their code cut out.
Torvalds and the kernel maintainers are driving a very particular type of bus, here. People who want to release binary-only drivers are just unwilling to get on the bus.
Or unable, due to licensing restrictions in their driver code. I've heard ATI and NVidia developers would love nothing more than to just open source their drivers. It'd be a big, nasty monkey off their back. But they can't because of some of the technology that they license from other companies. It's not lack of desire that's preventing this, it's lack of legality with current IP agreements.
I mean, just look at what ATI has done with getting the older Radeon's supported with OS drivers. They have released a lot of info.
Uh, maybe I like Fedora more? Or Ubunto? Or generic Debian? Or even slackware? Maybe I like to keep my machines consistent from my desktop to my laptop, from administration to application concurrency. I've run multiple distros and found it a hassle. I'd rather pick ONE distro and use it exclusively.
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Friday April 08, 2005 @09:18AM (#12175685)
The vendors currently see enough profit in binary-only drivers; thus, when you buy for that manufacture then you are supporting that plan.
How would you like to participate in a kind of wiki open architecture development where you can tweak the plans for hardware? When the plans are in a good enough state you could then send it to a vendor to manufacture one for you - don't think it is crazy because this is similar to how apple started. When enough people start buying into this than the scales of economy would be realized. I say that the EE community has to step up and support an open architecture just as the SE community.
Until that time, vendors will see no reason to give you more details about *their* hardware.
EmperorLinux specializes in the installation and configuration of the Linux operating system on laptop and notebook computers. The portable Linux market is a very small one, in which several companies over the past few years have tried and failed to maintain a presence. EmperorLinux has been in business since August 1999, and we are focused completely on our core portable Linux offerings.
We are the only company offering a wide range of system hardware (over 30 different portable systems in 7 classes) running Linux. We have machines from 2-pound ultra-portables, up to desktop replacements with Pentium-4 processors and 16" displays. Our machines are based on the finest systems offered by IBM, Sony, and Dell. We thrive on the difficult problems posed by staying current with ever-changing laptop hardware.
We are also the only company offering a wide choice of which Linux OS is installed on your system. We offer a variety of popular Linux distributions, and all of our systems are available dual-boot with Windows. Offering so many Linux choices on many different hardware platforms sets us apart from any other Linux system integrator.
We customize each Linux distribution to the particular machine hardware it will be running on. This includes a custom Linux kernel, advanced sound and PCMCIA drivers, and the latest X-server code. More exotic items like FireWire, USB, and DVD are also supported. Each machine is individually tested and verified before shipping to ensure that all hardware components are working under Linux.
All our systems come with one year of Linux technical support, both 1-888 phone support and e-mail support. Full manufacturers hardware warranties
>> it didn't take me $1k of time to get it that way, either.
I wish more people considered the cost of time... not trying to sound like a "windows TCO" ad, but how many times have you needed to get [pick anything here] to work and blown a whole Saturday afternoon?
I love slackware. I use it every day..but after RTFA, I might just give SUSE a spin.
To an extent, I agree with that statement. But I'd rather put it as "Until Linux becomes more popular". I don't see why manufacturers will even bother with a mass produced and heavily marketed laptop with Linux. Besides why would a common person go ahead and buy a laptop linux? They cost pretty much that same as a decent windows or even apple laptops.
Linux on Laptops [linux-laptop.net] is a great resource for how-tos on getting your specific model of laptop working, there are some other sites as well (linux.org [linux.org]), and while they aren't the best updated they helped me at least get linuxs working on my D600 very well. Also its a good spot to check to see if you particular laptop model is generally supported.
I've been taking Knoppix CDs to shops here in Sydney to see if Debian will run on the 10.6" laptops available there (I commute; I'm looking for something ultra-portable). I drew a small crowd in one place by merely putting Xaos on Auto-zoom; It's interesting to see people's responses. As to results, not much yet; the Fujutsu's seem OK; the Vaio's I haven't been able to check yet (staff who don't know what Knoppix is are justfiably wary of booting strange disks).
The Linux community would address the driver crisis...if it were legal to do so or the hardware specs were available! Blame your freakin' manufacturer. Not developers that would gladly write drivers if they had the information to do so!
Binary drivers aren't a solution no matter how badly he thinks they are. They're of questionable legality considering the nature of the GPL, and no developer will help you with them given that they're a black box at best.
I may not agree with the prohibition of binary drivers but I understand why the Linux team won't deal with them...
If binary drivers are OK, why would a company bother releasing source? If one company can release binary only, why not the other? Under the current attitude, companies stand to gain a lot more than they would with binary only.
The Linux community would address the driver crisis...if it were legal to do so or the hardware specs were available! Blame your freakin' manufacturer.
Binary drivers aren't a solution no matter how badly he thinks they are. They're of questionable legality considering the nature of the GPL...
IIRC there is no GPL issue with the kernel loading non-GPL'd modules, at least as far as Linus is concerned. From his point of view the drivers are simply using a published kernel interface, so they aren't qualitatively different from userland modules from the point of view of creating a derivative work: it falls under the category of simple aggregation.
...is working flawlessly. It sees all the hardware, it installed quickly, and everything I need is running beautifully. I've got VMware installed with the work image in it, so I can use it for everything I need. There wasn't anything special that I had to do outside the normal Gentoo installation - it worked like a charm!
I've been using various versions of SUSE on my Dell Laptop for the last eighteen months (and many other distros also).
After wrestling with Red Hat, Mandrake, Slack and Gentoo, my laptop finally found a home with SUSE Professional.
It "just works"; therefore, I spend more time working and less time messing around trying to force things to work?
Whilst I do enjoy messing around with various distros, the time does come when I need to get work done, and SUSE lets me do this, including (almost) seamless co-operation with my company Windows-LAN?
Talking about video drivers shows how much Linus is not ready for the
Laptop. If this is a problem, how much are audio, USB, FireWire, and
WLAN are going to be a problem? I'm working in a CS department and most
people I know don't even try to get Linux running on their laptop.
(That's also why Apple's OS X on iBooks and PowerBooks becomes more and more
popular around here.)
Come on now. Getting NDISWrapper to work is only easy if you are lucky. There are pages and pages [sourceforge.net] of listings of particular kernel, driver, and wrapper versions and their interactions. When you see something like that you know you are in for some fun.
Talking about video drivers shows how much Linus is not ready for the Laptop. If this is a problem, how much are audio, USB, FireWire, and WLAN are going to be a problem?
Extrapolation is bad. There's a known problem with video support for the latest 3d accelerated video cards (2d support is there), but that does not imply that other hardware is not supported.
Having just bought a new laptop and installed Linux on it (to replace an old laptop with Linux on it) I can tell you that audio, USB, and FireWire aren't a problem. There are only so many mobile chipsets and only so many integrated audio/USB/FireWire solutions which go with those. WLAN is a problem, most likely due to the lack of availability of hardware specs (as with video).
I agree, although with stipulations. Linux is not ready for laptops. I have an ibook for that very reason.
However Linux is mostly ready for desktop replacement style laptops. When battery life is not an issue (so the importance of APCI/APM support is minimal), many problems go away. The real problem comes with the state of wireless support.
People claim that well obviously things won't work right with cheap wireless cards like those built into most laptops, but thats a load. Look at regular ethernet cards. I tend to buy loads of realtek 83159 cards because they're cheap and work fine under Linux. Why can't the same be done with wireless. Besides every wireless card has different types of drivers, and even if you get your card to work, there are issues. Try using 802.1x authentication under Linux (which my school requires). I fighted with xsupplicant for over a month of my old thinkpad before giving up and deciding I need an ibook.
Now that I have an ibook I have the best of both worlds. I have a unix friendly enviornment that easily interoperates with my linux workstations, and I still have working wireless, accelerated video, 5 hours of battery life, most linux apps run under it, MS Office runs on it (I know its the darkside, but its needed) and everything is plug and play compatible. Most of all things just work. I don't worry about anything.
In this day and age when laptops are becoming permanantly network attached devices whats the need for a fancy hardware support. Let the laptop be a graphical terminal and everyone will be happy.
Phil
More than anything else, even more than Microsoft, closed drivers will be the downfall of Linux and open source. First they lock you in and then they rip the rug from under you.
Drivers are too low level and critical to the entire OS. Drivers aren't like some accounting app that you can get by without. When the ATI and nVidia say, we can't be bothered with writing Linux drivers anymore, but we still won't open the source, what are you going to do?
More than anything else, even more than Microsoft, closed drivers will be the downfall of Linux and open source.
Which Microsoft realizes as well, I'm sure. I wonder if there is any pressure from Redmond - explicit or otherwise - on manufacturers not to release OSS drivers? Or maybe just extra candy for those that don't? Just speculating, but there's little doubt that they would do just that if they thought they could get away with it legally...
My last remaining sore spot is sleep. I've tried everthing I can figure to get suspend-to-ram (aka sleep) working. It never wakes up correctly.
And I place the blame SQUARELY on the BIOS manufacturers. From what I can see, they're cutting corners left and right because it "works with Windows".
Not to mention the TERRIBLE tech support Avereatec has given me, even with regard to Windows problems. They haven't released drivers for this noteboook yet, claiming their re-install procedure works flawlessly (it doesn't). Right now, Linux runs better on this machine that Windows.
Linux ignores the BIOS and uses it's own calls to talk to the hardware.
For ACPI? No. For APM? Really, really no.
ACPI sleep works well on about 75% of laptop hardware, though you have to go through some contortions to get the video back. Another 10% or so reboot immediately on resume for reasons that aren't understood yet. The others have a variety of issues, mostly on resuming IDE. Most hardware ought to work reasonably well in 6 months or so. We're already way beyond where we were 6 months ago.
Turner acknowledges that binary-only drivers are a sore spot with free software purists, but says he'd "rather have a fully functional, if closed, Nvidia driver than a reverse-engineered one that limps along."
I would have to agree with this - at least as far as my own systems are concerned. I appreciate the idea (and ideals) of F/OSS but do not pursue that single idea doggedly enough to ignore functionality. No single ideology can encompass all possible situations; open source can - and must, in many cases - co-exist peacefully next to closed source and commercial software.
The thing with closed-source drivers for cards is; who else _really_ has any business using taht code? Its whole job is to be the interface between proprietary (closed, even secret) hardware, and (possibly open, certainly someon-else's) software.
It is, bluntly, the card manufacturer's bailiwick to go around writing that interfac layer; and if the workings of the HW are secrets, to be guarded because that's where their business gets its competetive edge, then the source code that buts up directly to those s
That's probably because key kernel developers make a sport out of breaking the nVidia drivers (really, any binary only drivers) because they are "evil". Greg KH is particularly nasty about this. He doesn't seem to care about the underlying reasons they aren't open sourced, he just doesn't want people to use them. Go choice!
The fact that Linus lets high level kernel developers get away with saying that they think binary modules are completely illegal increasingly convinces me that no matter how great an en
Guess what - he doesn't manage those people and don't care about their political/ethical opinions as long as it doesn't interfere with him.
About what you whinning about... It is more difficult case than trashing kernel devs who reasonably hate closed source drivers, or company who can't release card specs due of NDA. Problem here is that is dilemma - if you put everything on card and driver do only control stuff, you get very very fast, very open source friendly card, BUT price of manufacturing it rockets
He may not manage them in the traditional sense of the word, but when they are making statements to driver developers that flatly contradict Linus' official policy and he does nothing, that seems to me very poor project management indeed. He should at least contradict them, if nothing else.
I don't think you know that much about hardware design. Neither do I really, but one thing I do know is that moving things into the driver can often increase performance, for instance texture compression is one obvious
Unless something dramatic happens, I don't see linux ever having anything close to universal wireless support, or support for the umpteen million other specialty hardwares in a laptop.
First, Windows doesn't support wireless. The wireless manufacturer supports Windows. If they treated MS users like they treat Linux users, Windows would have the exact same issues
By delivering binary-only drivers, manufacturers can only support a very small fraction of the amount of different possible configurations. Now, since a huge percentage of users only use a very small set of possible configurations, that is ok for most people -- but it makes it much more difficult for someone to investigate other options.
Practical examples abound: off course most manufacturers only deliver drivers for windows, but also vendors that support linux with binary-only drivers usually support only a few kernels / distributions. Running linux on something other than x86 (such as an ibook) is completely unsupported.
If you want to have choice in what you buy and run, don't support binary only drivers. Don't buy WLAN devices that can only be gotten to work with ndiswrapper. Support manufacurers that do give code or documentations to the community. And be vocal: make sure that unwilling vendors know that this is important for us.
Until Linux is a simple grandmother-friendly install, desktop Linux is going to stay in the ghetto
No its going to stay in the ghetto until OEMs bundle it. Could your grandmother install Windows?
I'm sick of this "No one uses desktop Linux because its hard to install". Patently untrue, Linux installs are generally easier IMHO, one reboot as opposed to 3 with Windows (and that's not counting updates!).
Software producers don't make business apps or games for Linux because people aren't using Linux. People aren't using it because it doesn't come bundled and the OEMs don't sell it because the games and the business apps just aren't there. Until someone solves the chicken and the egg problem there won't be a lot of Linux desktop growth.
Honeslty that's fine with me. Linux works on my desktop and does what I need it to do. I've also gotten it to work fine on several laptops I don't know what this author's problem is!
Configuration afterward is, and software installation too. The package systems are halfway there, you can find programs to install eaisly enough. "But where's the icon?", asks grandma. There isn't one, gotta find where the thing inatalled and set that up yourself.
And it doesn't help when some of the icons that are set up on install don't work and don't give feedback as to why.
It's not like it's an impossible problem to solve, OSX and Windows software installs are pretty simple for grandma. You run the insta
The story, although concluding that the state of linux laptops in 2005 'is a lot better' than in 2004, says an awful lot of nice things about SuSE 9.1, in spite of it being an April 2004 distribution. And Linspire 4.5 is, according to distrowatch, from December 2003.
It would be nice if a 2005 test actually used the 2005 versions of the distros (eg. Linspire 5.0 and SuSE 9.3)
On another note, I do find it somewhat disappointing that Ubuntu was omitted from the test. I recently tried the LiveCD and it seemed very much laptop ready.
I just got a donated 1GHz PIII Dell laptop. It came with Win2K on it, but no documentation or Licenses that proved it was supposed to be there - perfect excuse to load Linux. I've switched from Fedora/Gnome to Xandros/KDE on my primary workstation (still use RHEL3 on my servers) because everything "just works" with our large Active Directory domain out of the box.
I installed Xandros on the laptop and it was a thing of beauty. I had two PCMCIA wireless cards (a Cisco and an older one that slips my mind - I'm at home posting this before work). I put the Cisco one in first and configured it to connect to our wireless network (through the nice GUI interface). It auto-detected the card upon insertion, grabbed an IP address and we were off and running. Then, just for kicks, while in the middle of a surfing session, I yanked the Cisco card our and popped the other one in. The system chirped upon removal and insertion and my surfing continued unhindered! I couldn't believe it.
It's working so well, that I'm even loaning it to someone from another department (with no Linux background) to take with her on a business trip so she can do some work while she's at her convention. She said she's sick of dealing with all the "problems" her employees have been having with their Windows stations, and if this does everything she needs, she'll switch her department too. Since it's just basic WordProcessing/Spreadsheet, Email and web access they need, I'm sure she'll find this a great alternative.
which is the most important thing for Linux-on-laptop. When I got Gentoo to hibernate (and wake up - important too;-) on my Fujitsu, that was a happy day.
If laptop manufacturers would make more laptops with LESS built into it, I think people would have a much better time with Linux. Build me a laptop without an integrated modem, ethernet, and wireless network and just give me a bunch of usb and PCMCIA slots so I can choose my own accessories, much like I do with my desktop. That way I can spend less on a laptop because it doesn't "come with everything" and I can expand it with exactly the hardware I want.
I have an old Digital HiNote VP 700 with no built in modem or ethernet card. I poked around online to see what PCMCIA devices are supported by my favorite flavor of Linux, and I bought those items. Machine runs slow as shit with a 133 mhz processor and Red Hat 9, but at least all my hardware works because I found the modem, ethernet, and wireless cards that work well with what I want to run. I am also happy using generic video drivers as long as I get the resolution I want.
To compare, I have a Toshiba Tecra with built in Ethernet, Modem, and Wireless. First off, Fedora Core 3 locks up on bootup, so I put RH9 on this one too. Wouldn't ya know it, the modem doesn't work, the 10/100 ethernet adaptor is detected but doesn't work, and I haven't even attempted the built in wireless. But I still have these cards I know work cause I researched them and picked them out myself, so I just shove em in and I'm good to go. Although RH9 was able to correctly determine my video and audio chipsets, I would be just as happy using generic video/audio drivers if I had to.
Sell me a laptop without everything built in so I can expand it myself...that's the way to make a Linux compatiable laptop.
I downloaded the newly released Ubuntu 5.04 this morning. Installation took about 30 minutes, and here's what I have:
Boots off CD and installs like it should? Check. Detects all hardware devices during the installation, even the wireless card? Check. Sound works? Check. Video works? Check minus (see below). Power management works, meaning sleep and suspend to disk (hibernate) work flawlessly and CPU speed throttles correctly? Check. Modem works? Who cares! Bluetooth works? Probably, but I don't have any BT devices to check it with. IBM's Active Protection System works to protect the hard drive? Nope. All function buttons for sleep, suspend, brightness, volume, etc. work? Yup.
So, I'm sitting here with a notebook that by current standards is running pretty darn good under Ubuntu, with a very small amount of manual configuration necessary to get this far. What's holding Linux back from running as nicely as Windows on the ThinkPad?
The video is the biggest problem. Ubuntu installs DRI drivers by default, which work pretty well, but lack 3D acceleration support. I can install the ATI binary drivers with a few simple commands, but they break suspend/resume functionality, which is arguably more important for most notebook users. I also won't be able to use the nifty ThinkVantage features on my expensive ThinkPad, like the Active Protection system.
So notebook users have a dilemma: do the Right Thing and handicap your system by installing Linux, or stick with the factory installation of Windows where everything Just Works. The never-ending battle of Morality vs. Functionality rages on.
(For those with the same/similar ThinkPad, see my quickly written guide [aaltonen.us] for more detail.)
It's a laptop. Power management must work completely and fully, up to and including suspend to disk.
The only Linux that I've seen that comes close in the power management area is SuSE 9.2 (haven't tried 9.3 yet), but even there the suspend to disk is unreliable.
It's ironic that Nvidia's Linux drivers are mentioned since they are one of the things that _stop_ suspend to RAM from working. I don't know if this has been fixed recently. I last upgraded about a month ago and it still didn't work.
I presntly use my Dell Inspriron 8200 more as a desktop than anything else because it is pretty-much useless as a laptop if I can't get the thing to suspend to RAM. Lord knows I've tried everything; ACPI, APM, latest kernel+patches, been there, done that, got the
I just booted up the Ubuntu 5.0.4 live-cd on my laptop and it works very nicely! It autodetected everything including my iPod. This is coming from someone who more or less stopped using Linux three years ago for OS X (I had been using Linux since '96). Anyway, things are definitely looking good from here. I'll post a more in-depth review in my blog [monogon.org] soon.
Just buy an Apple PowerBook or iBook and freaking be done with it! Run OS X if you care more about stuff just 'WORKING'. You can run all of your Open Source software under OS X! Plus you can run all the Apple Software including MS Office! Install the developer tools, install X11 and then go install Fink. You can ssh into your Linux / BSD / Solaris / AIX boxen, run X11 apps remotely, etc. Every *nix user and sysadmin I run into drools over my PowerBook, it's getting to the point where I have to carry a towel with me!
Or if you are a GNU/Open Source Purist, put Linux on the iBook / PowerBook. They are the most supported laptops available for Linux. Most everything works as it should even under Linux! Even Linux Torvalds is running a PowerMac G5 workstation (it was a gift and it blows away most x86 hardware), albeit running Linux and not OS X.
http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/ [yellowdoglinux.com] 4.0.1 now supports sleep mode on the Apple laptops w/ATI video cards. Not everything works even on Apple hardware.
I installed Ubuntu Hoary on my laptop (an old-ish Dell) a couple of days ago, and hibernate works great out of the box. It uses some kind of software suspend, which (I would geuss) means it's likely to work on a lot of different hardware.
Re:Installation woes (Score:5, Insightful)
If it's laptop ready, it should work. If it doesn't work, then it isn't ready.
Re:Installation woes (Score:3, Funny)
These posts always surprise me, because I've been running Linux on an old IBM TP-600E for years, with never a problem at all. I guess I didn't know that it wasn't "ready", or surely I wouldn't have dared such a thing. Should I have been experiencing difficulties? Is there something wrong with me or my laptop? My desktop was running Linux long before it was "ready" for that, too...
Re:Installation woes (Score:5, Insightful)
As I mentioned some time ago, my Thinkpad T40p came with a customized version of SuSE 9.1 pro. This is what I would say is a ready for the laptop linux distribution. You simply put the the disk in your DVD drive, answer 2-3 short questions at the beginning regarding the partitions and amount of space you want to use (or simply go with the defaults), click ok and off you go.
Just like using a recovery Windows XP CD, all hardware modules are installed and configured, plus a whole bunch of usefull applications for e-mail, WWW, office applications.
I had a lot of trouble installing XP from a "normal" installation CD on my old T21, which came with a Windows 98 recovery CD, and which I wanted to upgrade.
Of course, the FC3 installer shouldn't just have displayed a black screen. But this whole question if Linux is ready for the laptop isn't fair if you compare an unmodified Linux distribution with Windows recovery CDs explicitly made for your computer model.
Re:Installation woes (Score:3, Insightful)
So, by defenition, if it works on your laptop then it is "laptop ready." Not likely! If a distro is ready for the laptop, then it should work OK on the vast majority of laptops, not just the one that you happen to have.
Re:Installation woes (Score:4, Insightful)
Also from TFA: Finally, I downloaded SuSE Linux 9.1, both the Live Boot and the full install. What a pleasant surprise. Everything in both versions worked right out-of-the-box, sound and WiFi included. As a bonus, the 9.1 distro is a 2.6 kernel, so I wasn't sacrificing the latest kernel features to get hardware compatibility. SuSE also had the smoothest, slickest install procedure.
So, use that one. What's the problem?
Re:Installation woes (Score:5, Insightful)
Not sure about you, but I don't really have the time to try every single distribution available in the hope that one of them will work with everything on my laptop.
He also makes a good point about closed source drivers. As much as it pains people here to hear it, I (as a user) don't really care how the driver was developed if it turns into a simple difference between having a laptop with something working or not working.
I'll pick the latter any day.
Re:Installation woes (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly. I have no problem at all with binary-only drivers, on the conditions that the vendor doesn't charge extra for them and updates them as frequently as they update the Windows drivers. IMHO, working drivers are part of what I paid for when
Re:Installation woes (Score:5, Insightful)
And this is kernel space we're talking about, so this means that your machine keeps crashing, hard, when it fucks up. And nobody can fix it, except the vendor, who "updates them as frequently as they update the Windows drivers", which means about twice a year, no more than four times total over the life of the product.
This is NOT good enough. The Linux kernel changes much more frequently and drastically than Windows, and driver maintainers are expected to keep up with the kernel or have their code cut out.
Torvalds and the kernel maintainers are driving a very particular type of bus, here. People who want to release binary-only drivers are just unwilling to get on the bus.
Re:Installation woes (Score:5, Informative)
I mean, just look at what ATI has done with getting the older Radeon's supported with OS drivers. They have released a lot of info.
Re:Installation woes (Score:5, Insightful)
Or, I could just use OS X or FreeBSD.
Don't fight the system (Score:4, Insightful)
How would you like to participate in a kind of wiki open architecture development where you can tweak the plans for hardware? When the plans are in a good enough state you could then send it to a vendor to manufacture one for you - don't think it is crazy because this is similar to how apple started. When enough people start buying into this than the scales of economy would be realized. I say that the EE community has to step up and support an open architecture just as the SE community.
Until that time, vendors will see no reason to give you more details about *their* hardware.
Here you go........ (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Here you go........ (Score:5, Informative)
Here I KW from the FAQ:
Good GOD! (Score:3, Insightful)
As it is though, my $1000 Averatec works for everything but sleeep; and I know it didn't take me $1k of time to get it that way, either.
Re:Good GOD! (Score:3, Insightful)
I wish more people considered the cost of time... not trying to sound like a "windows TCO" ad, but how many times have you needed to get [pick anything here] to work and blown a whole Saturday afternoon?
I love slackware. I use it every day
Re:It's chicken and egg (Score:4, Insightful)
To an extent, I agree with that statement. But I'd rather put it as "Until Linux becomes more popular". I don't see why manufacturers will even bother with a mass produced and heavily marketed laptop with Linux. Besides why would a common person go ahead and buy a laptop linux? They cost pretty much that same as a decent windows or even apple laptops.
Linux On Laptops (Score:5, Informative)
Knoppix as Shoppix (Score:3, Interesting)
Driver Crisis... (Score:5, Insightful)
Binary drivers aren't a solution no matter how badly he thinks they are. They're of questionable legality considering the nature of the GPL, and no developer will help you with them given that they're a black box at best.
I may not agree with the prohibition of binary drivers but I understand why the Linux team won't deal with them...
edge of the wedge (Score:5, Insightful)
Xix.
Re:Driver Crisis... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now what?
Re:Driver Crisis... (Score:3, Insightful)
IIRC there is no GPL issue with the kernel loading non-GPL'd modules, at least as far as Linus is concerned. From his point of view the drivers are simply using a published kernel interface, so they aren't qualitatively different from userland modules from the point of view of creating a derivative work: it falls under the category of simple aggregation.
The point
Gentoo on my Dell D600... (Score:5, Informative)
SUSE 9.2 Pro is good for me? (Score:3, Informative)
After wrestling with Red Hat, Mandrake, Slack and Gentoo, my laptop finally found a home with SUSE Professional.
It "just works"; therefore, I spend more time working and less time messing around trying to force things to work?
Whilst I do enjoy messing around with various distros, the time does come when I need to get work done, and SUSE lets me do this, including (almost) seamless co-operation with my company Windows-LAN?
Just my 0.02 Euros worth.....
Obviously not ready for the laptop (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Obviously not ready for the laptop (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Obviously not ready for the laptop (Score:5, Insightful)
Extrapolation is bad. There's a known problem with video support for the latest 3d accelerated video cards (2d support is there), but that does not imply that other hardware is not supported.
Having just bought a new laptop and installed Linux on it (to replace an old laptop with Linux on it) I can tell you that audio, USB, and FireWire aren't a problem. There are only so many mobile chipsets and only so many integrated audio/USB/FireWire solutions which go with those. WLAN is a problem, most likely due to the lack of availability of hardware specs (as with video).
Re:Obviously not ready for the laptop (Score:4, Interesting)
Closed drivers. (Score:5, Insightful)
Drivers are too low level and critical to the entire OS. Drivers aren't like some accounting app that you can get by without. When the ATI and nVidia say, we can't be bothered with writing Linux drivers anymore, but we still won't open the source, what are you going to do?
See Bitkeeper...
Re:Closed drivers. (Score:3, Interesting)
Which Microsoft realizes as well, I'm sure. I wonder if there is any pressure from Redmond - explicit or otherwise - on manufacturers not to release OSS drivers? Or maybe just extra candy for those that don't? Just speculating, but there's little doubt that they would do just that if they thought they could get away with it legally...
Happy with my laptop, but... (Score:5, Interesting)
And I place the blame SQUARELY on the BIOS manufacturers. From what I can see, they're cutting corners left and right because it "works with Windows".
Not to mention the TERRIBLE tech support Avereatec has given me, even with regard to Windows problems. They haven't released drivers for this noteboook yet, claiming their re-install procedure works flawlessly (it doesn't). Right now, Linux runs better on this machine that Windows.
Re:Happy with my laptop, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
reasonable and logical thoughts? (Score:5, Insightful)
Turner acknowledges that binary-only drivers are a sore spot with free software purists, but says he'd "rather have a fully functional, if closed, Nvidia driver than a reverse-engineered one that limps along."
I would have to agree with this - at least as far as my own systems are concerned. I appreciate the idea (and ideals) of F/OSS but do not pursue that single idea doggedly enough to ignore functionality. No single ideology can encompass all possible situations; open source can - and must, in many cases - co-exist peacefully next to closed source and commercial software.
Re:reasonable and logical thoughts? (Score:3, Insightful)
It is, bluntly, the card manufacturer's bailiwick to go around writing that interfac layer; and if the workings of the HW are secrets, to be guarded because that's where their business gets its competetive edge, then the source code that buts up directly to those s
Re:reasonable and logical thoughts? (Score:3, Insightful)
The fact that Linus lets high level kernel developers get away with saying that they think binary modules are completely illegal increasingly convinces me that no matter how great an en
Re:reasonable and logical thoughts? (Score:3, Insightful)
About what you whinning about... It is more difficult case than trashing kernel devs who reasonably hate closed source drivers, or company who can't release card specs due of NDA. Problem here is that is dilemma - if you put everything on card and driver do only control stuff, you get very very fast, very open source friendly card, BUT price of manufacturing it rockets
Re:reasonable and logical thoughts? (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think you know that much about hardware design. Neither do I really, but one thing I do know is that moving things into the driver can often increase performance, for instance texture compression is one obvious
Linspire.. (Score:5, Interesting)
then, is 2005... (Score:5, Funny)
Finally! I was getting tired of every year since 1998 being the year of 'Linux on the desktop'
Re:powerbook (Score:3, Informative)
I'm writing this right now on my 15" Powerbook.
Stuff that doesn't work:
-Airport Extreme* (it probably won't ever)
-3d Acceleration*
-There is no Flash for PPC linux(*)
-Newer model's touchpad changed, but it will eventually be supported, probably.
-Sound (on mine at least) is kind of ghetto. No mixing, only one app can play a sound at a time.
(*) = A binary driver from the manufacturer must be provided for this to work. Except flash. The
Subtle, but VERY important point... (Score:5, Insightful)
First, Windows doesn't support wireless. The wireless manufacturer supports Windows. If they treated MS users like they treat Linux users, Windows would have the exact same issues
Laptop linux in 2005? (Score:3, Funny)
Binary-only drivers make choice more difficult (Score:3, Insightful)
Practical examples abound: off course most manufacturers only deliver drivers for windows, but also vendors that support linux with binary-only drivers usually support only a few kernels / distributions. Running linux on something other than x86 (such as an ibook) is completely unsupported.
If you want to have choice in what you buy and run, don't support binary only drivers. Don't buy WLAN devices that can only be gotten to work with ndiswrapper. Support manufacurers that do give code or documentations to the community. And be vocal: make sure that unwilling vendors know that this is important for us.
Jan
NVidia (Score:3, Insightful)
Doesn't that way of doing things tend to lend better compatability?
Windows and Linux is all hard to my grandmother (Score:3, Insightful)
No its going to stay in the ghetto until OEMs bundle it. Could your grandmother install Windows?
I'm sick of this "No one uses desktop Linux because its hard to install". Patently untrue, Linux installs are generally easier IMHO, one reboot as opposed to 3 with Windows (and that's not counting updates!).
Software producers don't make business apps or games for Linux because people aren't using Linux.
People aren't using it because it doesn't come bundled and the OEMs don't sell it because the games and the business apps just aren't there. Until someone solves the chicken and the egg problem there won't be a lot of Linux desktop growth.
Honeslty that's fine with me. Linux works on my desktop and does what I need it to do. I've also gotten it to work fine on several laptops I don't know what this author's problem is!
OS install isn't the problem (Score:3, Interesting)
And it doesn't help when some of the icons that are set up on install don't work and don't give feedback as to why.
It's not like it's an impossible problem to solve, OSX and Windows software installs are pretty simple for grandma. You run the insta
Old distro versions? (Score:3, Insightful)
It would be nice if a 2005 test actually used the 2005 versions of the distros (eg. Linspire 5.0 and SuSE 9.3)
On another note, I do find it somewhat disappointing that Ubuntu was omitted from the test. I recently tried the LiveCD and it seemed very much laptop ready.
I just installed Xandros on a laptop (Score:3, Interesting)
I installed Xandros on the laptop and it was a thing of beauty. I had two PCMCIA wireless cards (a Cisco and an older one that slips my mind - I'm at home posting this before work). I put the Cisco one in first and configured it to connect to our wireless network (through the nice GUI interface). It auto-detected the card upon insertion, grabbed an IP address and we were off and running. Then, just for kicks, while in the middle of a surfing session, I yanked the Cisco card our and popped the other one in. The system chirped upon removal and insertion and my surfing continued unhindered! I couldn't believe it.
It's working so well, that I'm even loaning it to someone from another department (with no Linux background) to take with her on a business trip so she can do some work while she's at her convention. She said she's sick of dealing with all the "problems" her employees have been having with their Windows stations, and if this does everything she needs, she'll switch her department too. Since it's just basic WordProcessing/Spreadsheet, Email and web access they need, I'm sure she'll find this a great alternative.
More accurate title (Score:5, Insightful)
Come on, even for slashdot generalizing from a single datapoint is a little underwhelming.
does not say anything about power management (Score:4, Funny)
If only... (Score:4, Insightful)
I have an old Digital HiNote VP 700 with no built in modem or ethernet card. I poked around online to see what PCMCIA devices are supported by my favorite flavor of Linux, and I bought those items. Machine runs slow as shit with a 133 mhz processor and Red Hat 9, but at least all my hardware works because I found the modem, ethernet, and wireless cards that work well with what I want to run. I am also happy using generic video drivers as long as I get the resolution I want.
To compare, I have a Toshiba Tecra with built in Ethernet, Modem, and Wireless. First off, Fedora Core 3 locks up on bootup, so I put RH9 on this one too. Wouldn't ya know it, the modem doesn't work, the 10/100 ethernet adaptor is detected but doesn't work, and I haven't even attempted the built in wireless. But I still have these cards I know work cause I researched them and picked them out myself, so I just shove em in and I'm good to go. Although RH9 was able to correctly determine my video and audio chipsets, I would be just as happy using generic video/audio drivers if I had to.
Sell me a laptop without everything built in so I can expand it myself...that's the way to make a Linux compatiable laptop.
Ubuntu 5.04 of IBM ThinkPad T42 (Score:5, Informative)
Boots off CD and installs like it should? Check.
Detects all hardware devices during the installation, even the wireless card? Check.
Sound works? Check.
Video works? Check minus (see below).
Power management works, meaning sleep and suspend to disk (hibernate) work flawlessly and CPU speed throttles correctly? Check.
Modem works? Who cares!
Bluetooth works? Probably, but I don't have any BT devices to check it with.
IBM's Active Protection System works to protect the hard drive? Nope.
All function buttons for sleep, suspend, brightness, volume, etc. work? Yup.
So, I'm sitting here with a notebook that by current standards is running pretty darn good under Ubuntu, with a very small amount of manual configuration necessary to get this far. What's holding Linux back from running as nicely as Windows on the ThinkPad?
The video is the biggest problem. Ubuntu installs DRI drivers by default, which work pretty well, but lack 3D acceleration support. I can install the ATI binary drivers with a few simple commands, but they break suspend/resume functionality, which is arguably more important for most notebook users. I also won't be able to use the nifty ThinkVantage features on my expensive ThinkPad, like the Active Protection system.
So notebook users have a dilemma: do the Right Thing and handicap your system by installing Linux, or stick with the factory installation of Windows where everything Just Works. The never-ending battle of Morality vs. Functionality rages on.
(For those with the same/similar ThinkPad, see my quickly written guide [aaltonen.us] for more detail.)
Re:Ubuntu 5.04 of IBM ThinkPad T42 (Score:3, Informative)
glxinfo | grep direct
Power Management (Score:4, Insightful)
The only Linux that I've seen that comes close in the power management area is SuSE 9.2 (haven't tried 9.3 yet), but even there the suspend to disk is unreliable.
Re:Power Management (Score:3, Informative)
It's ironic that Nvidia's Linux drivers are mentioned since they are one of the things that _stop_ suspend to RAM from working. I don't know if this has been fixed recently. I last upgraded about a month ago and it still didn't work.
I presntly use my Dell Inspriron 8200 more as a desktop than anything else because it is pretty-much useless as a laptop if I can't get the thing to suspend to RAM. Lord knows I've tried everything; ACPI, APM, latest kernel+patches, been there, done that, got the
Ubuntu live-cd on Powerbook G4 is sweet (Score:3)
Oh For Crying Out LOUD!!! (Score:4, Insightful)
Or if you are a GNU/Open Source Purist, put Linux on the iBook / PowerBook. They are the most supported laptops available for Linux. Most everything works as it should even under Linux! Even Linux Torvalds is running a PowerMac G5 workstation (it was a gift and it blows away most x86 hardware), albeit running Linux and not OS X.
http://www.yellowdoglinux.com/ [yellowdoglinux.com] 4.0.1 now supports sleep mode on the Apple laptops w/ATI video cards. Not everything works even on Apple hardware.
Re:My Take from a windows user at home (Score:3, Informative)
Hibernate works pretty good (Score:3, Informative)