Walt Mossberg Reviews Ubuntu 642
sciurus0 writes "Mainstream technology journalist Walt Mossberg recently reviewed an Inspiron 1420N with Ubuntu installed by Dell. Citing problems such as an oversensitive touchpad and poor multimedia support, he suggests that 'from the point of view of an average user, someone who wouldn't want to enter text commands, hunt the Web for drivers and enabling software, or learn a whole new user interface' Ubuntu isn't a good choice compared to Windows or OS X."
This is something new? (Score:4, Insightful)
My wife has a Dell laptop and while the touchpad isn't sensitive the little nodule in the middle of the keyboard is while running XP! She doesn't use either of those though, she uses an external mouse so I guess neither matters to her.
Everyone with any sense knows that Linux isn't a great choice compared to Windows or OS X for those that don't want to learn a new UI (or anything else he said) as I've discussed here numerous times before to the pro-Linux troll mods' joy. Linux is a great option if you're not interested in additional cost, vendor lock-in, and attempts by a corporation to invade your personal privacy and choice due to their licensing allowances while covering it up with vague non-sense.
I will continue to run Windows and OS X on my desktop machines until any of the Linux distributions mature enough to match what's available on the Windows platform (which will probably never come unfortunately) and I will continue to trust Linux as my network server -- happily chugging along for years at a clip without as much as a hiccup.
Re:This is something new? (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, I'm going to be a little hard on Linux/*NIX here, but I'm not trolling. I love linux, I'm typing this from a Linux box, so here we go.
All *NIX GUI is pretty bad (with the exception of OS X). From my opinion, there is no real difference between Gnome and KDE, and both are pretty much a combo of 80s and 90s UNIX X window managers with a strong Microsoft Windows influence. My favorite GUI environment from the late 90s was WindowMaker, which was a ripoff of NextStep.
Linux is cool from the perspective of its openness and it being based on *NIX philosopies and style. But Even Linus will tell you that Linux is nothing new, and I believe that it would take something like a startup and a bunch of cash and forethought to make a good GUI for Linux or any other *NIX (again besides OS X).
I've used FVWM, TWM, OL(V)WM, WindowMaker, Afterstep (which is how I found
It drives me up a wall that copy and paste is so inconsistant. I have to think, is it control-v, right click and use menu, middle click, shift-insert, and its common for me to get it wrong. Oh, to do page up/down, should I use page up or down keys, or shift and page up/down, or will page up and down even work? What about drag and drop? Will it work? Will it work between apps? What about a consistant Widget look and feel?
These are common GUI things from the mid 80s, but as a rank ordering from best to worst, you have OS X, Windows, and others. Windows is not that great either. The look and feel has become about as segmented as *NIX. And OS X is not perfect, but it seems clear that they have spent more time and effort with attention to these design features than anybody else.
Well designed command lines are good for new users (Score:5, Insightful)
I take your points, and to me it just seems as if nobody knows how to make a great GUI, or at least, nobody is making a great GUI. If there really was a great GUI out there, I might use it, but as far as I can tell there simply isn't.
I also think it's important to point out that it's completely possible to have a user friendly command line. I think command line interfaces get an unjustified reputation for new users. One of the most commonly used types of apps in the World -- the web search engine -- is based around command lines. Users type what they want, and the search engine tries to give it to them... often quite accurately. The Google command line is a great example of this. It's straightforward for new users to use quite effectively, and advanced users can customise their searches in lots of ways. It's not the type of precisely specified command line that would be associated with something like a bash session, but it's a well designed system appropriate for the task, intended to be quick to learn and easier to use.
Getting back to your comments about GUIs, I have to admit that one of the main reasons I prefer Linux as a desktop OS (and I fully agree this isn't for anyone) is that in a world where no GUI is that great, it provides an excellent command line. I primarily use the GUI these days to do regular things like open a web browser or edit a spreadsheet. But when I get sick of trying to interact with the GUI for a slightly complex operation such as moving files around in a certain way, I can switch to a command line and do things very easily.
Windows has a horrible command line as far as I've experienced. There are few consistent standards for how Windows command line tools should work together, and many Windows tools I've tried to use through a command line have been a secondary effort to an equivalent GUI tool. Often it's impossible to do simple things without invoking the GUI. The Windows Powershell stuff is quite nice for scipting functionality, but Windows still presents it through an awful interface for typing in.
Just my thoughts, anyway.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Only if "cost" is counted in money. I think we need a third "Free as in..." category. Linux is free if your time is worthless, but otherwise seems to incur significant "additional" costs beyond MacOS X (and to a lesser degree Windows). At some point in your career/life you reach a point where you have and are willing to pay the money for someone else to deal with all the random whack-a-mole problems.
Reviews make Linux stronger (Score:5, Insightful)
These reviews will only make Linux stronger.
Re:Reviews make Linux stronger (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right. If I have to go to a forum to get basic functionality of a brand new product working right out of the box, that product gets returned. Having to get "support" for a new product means that that product is broken.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Though one point he does miss is that even non-tech users sometimes have friends or family who are techies, and in that situation Linux might be a better fit. Windows is still generally easier to use out of the box, but when it doesn't work and the help just says "consu
Re:Reviews make Linux stronger (Score:5, Informative)
No, I have a 1420n myself, and the necessary preference isn't there. The sort of sensitivity he's talking about isn't configurable via the ordinary gnome mouse dialog--you need an extra synaptics-specific configuration utility that wasn't installed by default, and (if I remember correctly) a kernel patch to recognize the touchpad as something more than an ordinary ps/2 mouse.
He may well have done that, but the answer he would have gotten (upgrade your kernel, etc.) wouldn't have been interesting to the intended audience for this article, and he would have ended up saying the same thing anyway (that workarounds were available, but that most users would find them complex).
And, by the way, I'm quite happy with my 1420n. Like him, I'd recommend it to people that are interested specifically in trying Linux, but wouldn't recommend it to the general computer user yet.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I hit this every time I use Gnome, too. I can think of no other desktop environment so limited in its capabilities. Even OSX's conscious decisions to limit config (e.g. not allowing skins) is generally with things that aren't part
For the non-RTFA folks (Score:5, Insightful)
Mossberg isn't just dumping on Linux or open source. He generally likes the idea of OSS:
Rather, he notes some average-user-level problems with Ubuntu (simple things like video, audio, and mouse issues). He's talking about usability by people who don't read Slashdot and are not related to (or dating) someone who DOES read Slashdot.
Of course, he still thinks that "the Apple iMac as the best consumer desktop computer on the market." And we all know the iMac is horrible to use and support!
Re:For the non-RTFA folks (Score:5, Insightful)
That is something that anyone looking at this article needs to consider. What Robert X. Cringely is to geeks, this guy is to the MBA crew. Consider the audience when considering the work.
Re:For the non-RTFA folks (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
+1 Funny
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
the setting he needs to adjust isn't in the usual mouse control panel. you need some extra stuff (gsynaptic, i believe) to make the setting available, which dell really should have included, but didn't for whatever reason.
Re:For the non-RTFA folks (Score:5, Funny)
You can't deny it (Score:5, Insightful)
I've said it elsewhere, I've said it here; licensing MP3 would be a good start for Ubuntu. They can certainly afford it, and the US MP3 patents are only valid until 2012, so it'd cost at most $250,000 to essentially get permanent MP3 support.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
really? because my technoilliterate mother can use it just fine, all she has to do to install things is click on the synaptic icon on her desktop, type the password and take a look at hwat she wants. hopefully that's not too technical... [it's easy for anyone, especially Dell, to make the deskto
Re:You can't deny it (Score:5, Insightful)
These days, having no native MP3 support is on the level of having no native mouse support. A computer that won't run basic, standard format multimedia out of the box is about as useful and relevant as one that doesn't support a mouse out of the box.
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But because it IS being pushed there, and reviewed there, and compared there, you're entirely wrong; it's not an apples to oranges comparison.
The user buys a computer. It has Linux on it. Or it has Windows on it. Or it has OSX on it. They don't know the difference, they don't know where it came from, they probably don't know what open source is, they probably do
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This doesn't mean that it runs perfectly on every laptop, desktop, and server ever produced.
To get a fair comparison of hardware support, yes. Windows and Mac OS X alm
Simple stuff (Score:5, Interesting)
That's all the complaints the author has. Not bad, I have seen Windows users with a lot more.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Malware? (Score:3, Funny)
A good sign. (Score:4, Insightful)
Underwhelming surprise. (Score:5, Insightful)
Armed with that knowledge, he goes out to write a column about:
So, what do I mean when I say Ubuntu is too rough around the edges for average users?
Apparently, though it is "too rough" it is not rough enough to keep the uninitiated away despite warnings precisely to that effect, which is a damned sight more interesting by itself than the litany of peeves he enumerates.
What's Not To Like? (Score:5, Insightful)
Times change, however. Contrary to Mossburg, who, much of the time, is a very even-handed and well-informed tech columnist that really knows the ins and outs of Windows and OS X, I'd have to disagree with him here.
I've installed Ubuntu client in my Parallels virtual environment on my OS X system. I like it over the past Linux distros for several key reasons:
(1) Ubuntu (actually, GNOME) has greatly simplified its interface, "stealing" good elements from both OS X and Windows. From the Mac, a fixed menu bar at the top of the screen, and only four menus at that. Finding things is easy. From Windows, the notion of menu-launching key applications a'la the Start menu button (rather than mere commands found in OS X menus).
(2) Ubuntu has very good hardware support, but always there will be a system that doesn't like it as well. This is because of the same problem that Windows has (although Microsoft has more money and clout to throw at this problem): Hardware quality and variations in the computer world are astronomically huge. Expecting any operating system to support the myriad of PC hardware variations is just near-impossible. Ubuntu does much better, in my experience in using it, than say another GNOME interfaced-Linux, Fedora. (In fact, Fedora is pretty awful in client form.)
(3) Ubuntu has EVERYTHING that the average Joe Offthestreet needs for basic internet and home needs: A web browser (Firefox, arguably best in the biz), an office suite (OpenOffice, always trying to be something that MS Office thinks it is), a mail client (Thunderbird, a client so nice I've moved from Apple Mail to it on my OS X system) and lots of games and the like.
Software update processes are now less crazy and propellerhead, again taking the ideas from the commercial camps. Security is as good as any Unix/Linux client, and since its not Windows, spyware and viruses are not generally present here.
Ubuntu loses only in the specialized "gimme-gimme" internet needs of the youth and industry, like iTunes (doesn't exist, but good MP3 players and support for them are, although iTunes Music Store reins supreme, IMO), some specialty web features for audio or video, professional-level graphic and audio tools, and enterprise support (this problem is shared with OS X, despite my own personal and professional efforts to the opposite).
Installing further applications outside of the bundled, however, needs work. GNOME needs to expand further with, say, Apple's "package" concept of a single app in a double-clickable folder that contains all the binaries and libraries for the app. For now, Ubuntu works like many Linux clients, so third-party apps are hellish to do for the average Joe Whodoesntdo-cmdlines.
If I had a friend or family member that needed a computer (PC) but didn't want to fight the antiquation battles that MS wants to give its consumers, AND if my friend only needed to do web, email, and general office stuff, Ubuntu is a hands-down favorite.
Mossburg and others, unfortunately, may have had too much exposure to other operating systems to see things more simply. Not everyone needs an enterprise-level operating system...just one that works for them for what they need, at home.
Usability and Culture (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem that Linux has is that it's written by wildly disparate groups of people with different ideas about how an OS should work from a user perspective. The strength of Linux is that it's written by wildly disparate groups of people with different ideas about how an OS should work from a technical perspective.
It's perfectly possible to make a UNIX OS be usable by the masses -- Apple's done that with OS X. The difference is that Apple "cheats" -- they only support a certain range of hardware, all of which is a known quantity to them. They're not dealing with the issues of a Frankencomputer made from whatever bits of hardware happen to show up.
The only way to get Linux as a mass-use OS is to user test the living hell out of it. That means a continual process of refactoring so that the user never has to view the command line unless they really want to. That means making sure that every application follows a consistent HIG. That means that the first person who says something along the lines of "RTFA" gets canned.
What matters isn't technical excellence, but a culture of usability. The Linux subculture is still based around the hacker ethics -- and that's why Linux remains an OS primarily for people who enjoy compiling programs and manipulating settings. That has to change. The culture needs to be one of taking a critical look at every stage in the process and presenting the user with a set of simple and consistent choices that let people use their computers rather than worrying about getting their machine in a usable state. Ubuntu's leaning in that direction, but they still have a long way to go.
The problem is that changing a culture is a hell of a lot harder than just writing software. A culture in which people are expected to navigate the Internet looking for answers will keep Linux marginalized. A culture that says "this problem is too complicated and needs to be simplified so that the average user gets it" is a culture that can take Linux to the mainstream. Not only that, but it encourages technical development as well -- a good number of the reasons for unnecessary complexity is because there are unnecessary complications in the way a piece of code works. At the end of the day, a solution that's simple for the user is often simple at the code level as well.
I've been using Linux for a decade now, and Ubuntu is a great distro -- but it still isn't enough. The only way that Linux will get mainstream acceptance is when Linux developers start consciously thinking about the overall user experience. It isn't the code that's the problem, it's the culture, and looking for technological solutions to cultural problems doesn't work -- just look at what Microsoft is trying to do with its current strategy.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You (and many others) are overstating the problem.
There is no significant gap in practical usability between Windows Vista, Mac OS X, and Ubuntu. There are some specific sore points (oh noes, you have to click "Ok" twice to play an MP3 the first time) and a hell of a lot of resistance to change.
Any person or company who wants to run Ubuntu on their desktop(s) can do so today - with almost exactly as much effort as it takes to switch from Windows to a Mac. Some hardware and peripherals may be unsupported a
"the vast majority of computer users" (Score:3, Insightful)
It appears that the "vast majority of computer users" are the same ones who are so incompetent that they have surpassed viruses themselves as a source of affliction.
The "vast majority of computer users" need to learn how to use these complicated machines.
Instead of shooting the messenger... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not suggesting that the rank-and-file support the uninitiated, but perhaps Linux vendors can take these types of things as fielding notes to help them build a better product.
Unless Linux geeks don't actually *want* Windows users to switch... :-)
OS-centric, or user-centric? (Score:3, Insightful)
You hit the nail on the head. Linux geeks actually do NOT want that. They still see themselves as the "computer wizards" and want to be worshipped for their magic powers. And yet, they fear a million joe users bothering them to fix their PCs. Linux geeks want everybody to be as smart as they are so Linux can be run on every computer in the world. They're OS-centric instead of being user-centric. That's their problem.
I don't care if i have to
Low quality of software (Score:4, Insightful)
I think what we as those who produce code should focus on is the generally low quality of software and hardware. In efficiency, capabilities and interface, our software and hardware today generally is mediocre but rarely better.
If Linux improves in these areas, it will be adopted, because the price is right and its hipness factor is higher than that of Windows or Mac OS (Windows is corporate, and the Mac is associated with smug trendsters talking loudly at Starbucks).
Let's be honest about the issues facing Linux.
1. Installation sucks. Hardware support is lacking, the process is ambiguous and confusing for most users. Included in this is "Your documentation generally sucks because it's done by non-professionals."
2. Much familiar, high quality Windows software is missing. Yes, Photoshop really is better than GIMP. And Office is better than OpenOffice. Quark is better than Scribus (or inDesign).
3. People want clear, simple, fast answers to common problems, not a "fiddle with it and come back to our mailing list so we can call you stupid again."
4. Someone to call in case of emergency who can give definite answers. It's 3 AM and your taxes are due, and there's some odd problem you don't understand. You can call Microsoft and for $200 they'll fix it. For Linux?
Knowing that software generally sucks helps us stop resting on our (or Linus's) laurels and lets us realize we have a lot to do. Software is still in its infancy. It is bloated and inefficient, it often lacks capabilities for common tasks and is unreliable, and its interfaces are generally awkward and seemingly created with no understanding of how the end user works. And interoperability is still in its infancy.
What I'm saying here is that to beat Windows, you have to be better at the game of being an operating system for people who are not obsessed with computers. Tech geeks don't understand that there are other ways of earning a living that are equally as if not more legitimate (and difficult) than typing in code patterns. These people want to focus on their specialty, not yours.
As long as we are content to scorn others for not being geeks, we will not meet their needs, and so Windows will continue to triumph over us as it is doing now. We need to stop thinking everyone out there is a tech geek. Think outside of the box? Think outside of your solipsistic skulls, and realize you haven't met the needs of the average or exceptional person out there.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I have to admit that your post reminds me yet again of the gap between myself and many computer users.
Especially when you say "Just call Microsoft and for 200 dollars they will fix it", I know that for a business, 200 dollars is nothing, but I think for me, and many other people, that is a lot of money. Two hundred dollars is about how much I have spent on computers, totally, in the past two years.
Which is another thing about GIMP and OpenOffice, they are free. And if you
Comment removed (Score:5, Informative)
So... (Score:3, Insightful)
support guys but otherwise the polish is there. It may not be ready for the grandma but his review makes it sound like
Ubuntu is ready for desktop (if there is someone to custom configure it upfront).
Is there anyone working on the complete client-server install distro of Linux (something that would install a complete
Linux groupware solution on the server and Linux clients ready to talk to said server)? A complete end-to-end install
where there is no need for things like Exchange on either end.
It's a win for Ubuntu (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't get it... (Score:3, Interesting)
Seems OK to me (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd rather see the mass public have something with those features taken care of than to keep answering the same questions regarding codecs, etc.
Some people posted on the list about various useful websites for documentation or utilities like Automatcix for installing stuff, the only problem is those things are not in the standard install so if Linux was suddenly 'general public popular' (be scared) we would be having to post again and again all these things because they are not something that is easy for the average user to figure out or find.
Recently I was looking for a good noob guide to Linux and the various OSS licenses (up to date and no really big long winded paragraphs with legal talk or platform bashing) and didn't really find any good ones. A lot of this is the 'well we already know that stuff already' mentality that is throughout the entire computer industry (i.e. "How do I take a snapshot of a Mac screen?" everyone who's been with a Mac for a decade knows but there is no easy guide for the new Mac people.)
I for one don't mind the situation as it is - cause once the 'AOL nation' moves to Linux we have the same problems MS has with Windows, "consumer lock-in", a lot of people keeping you from getting new/necessary work done because of fear that their old Apps don't start up any more (either rightly so or not). I figure there are are probably still some adjustments coming down the pipe before we want EVERYONE to depend on Linux to have it in wide use - too early makes fixing some problems a lot more difficult.
Re:Your Citizenship Has Been Cancelled (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Automatix is dangerous to the system (Score:3, Interesting)
You should be recommending Easybuntu or preferably Medibuntu. [ubuntu.com] With Medibuntu, you just switch on universe and mulitverse and restricted, copy/paste the Medibuntu source lines into the package manager, then install w32codecs and libdvdcss. Upgrades then won't cause your system to self destruct.
The system will work with multimedia at this point.
That leaves one remaining hurdle, the video driver for 3D games. I agree that Dell could have taken care of this detail, but wha
Re:Your Citizenship Has Been Cancelled (Score:5, Informative)
I agree 100%. Ubuntu is a great system, I use it daily and my teenage non-geek daughter replaced Vista on her laptop with it. The only big snag was that the speakers did not cut out when the earphones were plugged in, and the audio did not go to the earphones. This required the supremely geeky solution of hunting down a specific version of the ALSA driver, compiling it, and installing it, with the potential of having to do it again each time the drivers get updated in the repositories. My daughter was neither amused nor favorably impressed by this, and it marred an otherwise happy transition to Linux. Unlike Mossberg, she was perfectly at ease using the Synaptic Package Manager to install things once she was shown how. Also, there are several good, user-friendly books on using Ubuntu.
Ubuntu is definitely most of the way there, but the remaining roughspots are serious and definitely discouraging to new users. It would be wisest to work towards GNU/Linux distros that are so polished and integrated that Mossberg can't find fault with them. Don't criticize the guy. To most educated people, he is a tech god whose word is law. If he is leveraged as the pass/fail criterion for Linux, there will be an avalanche of new users.
I don't know if this was part of Shuttleworth's plan or not, but it may well be a brilliant strategy to quickly get Ubuntu ready for prime time. If Mossberg raves about it, everybody will rave about it.
Re:Your Citizenship Has Been Cancelled (Score:5, Insightful)
I would love the average user to be technically savvy enough to install and use Linux, any distro. It would eliminate a lot of problems we all face. The technically savvy user would be able to keep their equipment cleaner from mal-ware and would be a lot more vocal about quality control of software products.
These kind of articles are what the Linux community needs. We need to have non-enthusiasts evaluate the distro, and then correct the problems. It's amazingly easy to get into the habit of understanding that an issue, or a kludge exists, work around it, and have it become so ubiquitous that we forget it's even there.
On the other hand, if we want to remain the elite minority, it's easy. Flame these kinds of articles and ignore the wants and needs of the non-elite majority. We'll stay Elite, holier than them, and a minority.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
My primary job at work is to maintain Linux servers and development machines. I also have a few Linux PCs and servers at home. I hate it as much as the average non-techie when I try to boot up my nice shiny new Ubuntu CD and it locks up on bootup everytime. Or w
Perhaps he Should Avoid Windows, as well. (Score:5, Insightful)
LEAVE LINUX USERS ALONE!!!!! (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Also Installing windows XP or vista is far more challenging that Ubuntu, but most users cant install any OS.
I've got to strongly disagree with this.
In the best case scenario, both are easy, and 'just work'.
On windows, if none of the hardware is supported out of the box, the hardest thing you have to do is go download drivers, and then install them. Then you hit MS Update, and patch, with the firewall cranked up. Thats as bad as it gets. It may be slow (patching an xpsp2 windows, for example), but its easy and straightforward.
The worst case scenaior on Linux is much, much worse. Situations where video doesnt
Re:How far we've come (Score:5, Insightful)
That's great, but it's 2007 now.
Re:How far we've come (Score:4, Informative)
Good point. We should be talking about Vista not XP.
And I can assure you a whole HOST of stuff needs Vista drivers, many of which simply do not exist or are horridly buggy.
From cdma/1x/evdo or gsm/edge cards to older printers, faxes, modems, scanners, to cutting edge graphics cards.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux is really awesome for certain uses, but it lacks the fit and polish of an OS that's had hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars spent on smoothing out rough edges and strongarming hardware makers.
The sad thing is that Linux has been "almost there" for years, but the reasons why its not "there" yet is as much
Re:How far we've come (Score:4, Funny)
Re:How far we've come (Score:5, Insightful)
None of which typically applied to a brand-new out of the box computer with Windows Pre-installed. What Walt was reviewing was a laptop provided by Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed by Dell. All of us Linux fans have been saying that the only fair comparison between Windows and Linux would be on machines with the OS pre-installed. We now have that situation, and Walt has some very valid criticism. Although I don't think the need to download new CODECs is all that severe, the poor video performance, problems with the touchpad and the crashing volume control applet are absolutely unacceptable for a pre-install.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
How many people around you know what a CODEC is? How would they react if the operating system warns them that the program about to be installed may dammage their installation? What would they say if they can't sync their Ipod with their PC? Why would they say if the volume controller crashes each time the screen saver appears?
We all know the reality...The weak support Linux enj
Re:To be fair ... (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't matter if the issues are legal or technological; if something doesn't work, it's an issue.
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The "main" repository and the base install certainly leave out legally objectionable packages, but I wouldn't say that installing them from the package management requires any more effort than getting Ogg Vorbis support on a Mac, or hounding the web for most of the basic codecs that are missing from XP by de
Re:To be fair ... (Score:5, Insightful)
You're missing the point. Average users shouldn't have to go to law school to figure out why their software doesn't work. Legal issues concerning codecs are irrelevant to users. Either the product works, or it doesn't. In this aspect, the product does not work.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
does XP "not work" because it cant play h.264 out of the box?
Re:The point is that Free is Free (not free). (Score:5, Insightful)
Ubuntu is NOT "free Microsoft Windows". (Score:3, Insightful)
And he is defining "work" as "being exactly like Microsoft Windows".
.ogg files.
.ogg files out of the box? No. Nor do the most common versions play mp3's out of the box. And he kind of skips over tha
No, Ubuntu is NOT "free Microsoft Windows". And there is no reason other than him being an idiot to expect it to be.
So Ubuntu doesn't play mp3's out of the box. It DOES play
Does Windows play
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, but if someone is coming from Windows and wants to try Linux, what on earth does
Windows supports MP3! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:To be fair ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Is this a fancy way of saying he's an average user? Your average user isn't going to know anything about the legal issues surrounding codecs on Linux. All they know is that on Windows and OSX their media files play fine right after installing the OS. The habit of calling new users idiots and blowing them off saying "RTFM" is one of the things that's stunted Linux adoption on the desktop.
By his "logic", Windows is not ready for anyone. Try getting an iPod to work on it without installing software.
An iPod comes with software and instructions that make it ready and easy to install on Windows/OSX. I certainly doubt there are any instructions in an iPod box that deal with installing it on your favorite Linux distro. Which means of course that you end up online searching Google for how to use your iPod with Linux. This is one of his (legitimate) gripes. In fairness it's not a gripe with Linux so much as it is with the lack of manufacturer support, but for users this is one in the same.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
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Re:How far we've come (Score:4, Funny)
Re:He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
I think his point is that he shouldn't have had to.
Re:He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu (Score:4, Insightful)
Complain to Dell about the Automatix oversight, as he took what he would have bought from Dell and tried to use it, without having to become a guru first.
Re:He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu (Score:4, Insightful)
Does Linux need any of this? Only if it wants to come out of the server room.
Do you use windows? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu (Score:5, Informative)
Of course he didn't. Dell doesn't ship those. Read the article, he's reviewing as shipped by Dell.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
For everything else........there's the lesser Ubuntu. I actually LIKE Ubuntu, once I install KDE on it. But I prefer SUSE for getting things done easily (And I don't shy away from command line, I am a sysadmin. I love by CLI). For newbies, it is not bad. It sets most things up for you. You have YaST for getting things done quickly w/o the command line. Package management for an RPM based distro is a breeze. It is not as fast as apt-get but it is thoroug
Re:Over sensitive mouse? (Score:5, Informative)
No, that doesn't work. What he wants to be able to do is control the sensitivity of the touchpad--how hard you have to press on it before it registers a touch--and the tap feature. I have this same notebook (the 1420n), it is quite easy to accidentally produce a "tap" which is effectively a left-click. The only way I know of to fix the problem is with a kernel upgrade (alowing it to recognize this particular hardware as a touchpad with something more than a minimal ps/2 mouse interface) and a touchpad-specific configuration utility.
I'm very happy with the 1420n. It's a great machine for a Linux enthusiast (and it's an advance in terms of usability), but it's not yet a great machine for the average user who doesn't care what OS they get. This looks like a very well-done review to me, and accurate based on my experiences.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
For the google impaired:
gsynaptics is the name of the package.
Here's the search that turned it up.. some people can't be helped I guess:
http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=navclient&gfns=1&q=synaptic+touchpad+sensitivity+adjustment+ubuntu [google.com]
http://ubuntuguide.org/wiki/Ubuntu:Feisty/Hardware#To [ubuntuguide.org]
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Typical Computer User: What's that you jabbering, son? Gyro-what? Is y'all from the future?
The point remains that a windowing GUI that doesn't ship with built-in support for what's rapidly becoming the most common consumer input device is fundamentally lacking. In mid September 2007, you shouldn't have to google anything or install anything to be able to fiddle with your touchpad settings.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Normally, I'm all about the end user and understanding the plight of the non-computer literate. But seriously, just about every problem he's mentioned is fixable and just a Google search away.
Computers are not a magic, mind reading, fix everything in one click device. This guy expects everything to work o
Re:reprints without permission /w original comment (Score:3, Insightful)
He's not claiming to be an average user, he's attempting to evaluate it from their perspective.
Isn't this Dell's issue? Even under Windows, Dell tunes their OEM install.
Well, what does Free mean to you Walt?
And if there were, then it would be in violation of MPEG licensing. Good call Walt.
All red herrings.
He's not evaluating Linux, or even Ubuntu, in some abstract sense to see if it's "ready for the desktop". He's trying to determine whether Joe Schmoe could go out
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
My counterpoint is that ANY correctly configured Linux distribution for the hardware can rival commercial operating systems for the average user.
It's a red herring because this is NOT 'Any correctly configured Linux distribution'.
This is a Dell laptop shipped with Ubuntu. And it was reviewed As Shipped..as in exactly how your Average User would receive it.
Your zealotism is doing no favors for the Linux community. This attitude does nothing but damage the reputation and adoptability of Linux.
Let me give you just a wee bit of proof that hopefully you'll understand: What market share of Average Users are running something other than Windows or OSX?
Ahh
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And you still don't get it, or at least, refuse to admit it.
Sabotage? You are really insisting on that? You're really going to call what he reviewed an untuned version of linux and claim that as sabotage?
Ok, you tell me then. From the POV of the Average User, just what Linux pre-install SHOULD be reviewed if not a Dell laptop pre-installed with Ubuntu?
What, should he have come to you? And that would have been representative
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Electronic puzzles to tinker with? (Score:3, Informative)
Because computers are supposed to think FOR you, and not viceversa? What drives me nuts is that linux fanbois still think as computers as "electronic puzzles to tinker with" instead of "tools that make your life easier".
The other day I saw a youtube video about Apple's intelligent agent (this video was made around 15 to 20 years ago). The agent, an AI "buttler" asked you questions about what you wanted to do, so you described the problem to him and he presente
Re:If you refuse to think, why even use a computer (Score:3, Insightful)
For most people, computers are a magic box that should 'just work.' With Windows being invasive and ubiquitous, that ideal _appears_ to be achieved for most people, for a while, regardless of how broken and smelly the guts of the system are. After three years or s
Blame the industry. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
Dell is shipping vanilla Ubuntu on these things. No media codecs, no accelerated drivers for nvidia cards, not even a properly configured X server. Can you imagine them doing the same with Windows? It would be a disaster.
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:4, Interesting)
Well, yes, this is a pain, but what is Dell supposed to do? Ship it with all the "bad" and "ugly" codecs? If I were a PC manufacturer in the US, I sure wouldn't want to do that. You're just asking for the mafiaa to come after you.
Actually, with feisty, I just opened up RhythmBox and it prompted me to install the other codecs. IIRC, I didn't have to anything in the CLI.
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
Pay for the codecs. There are legal [fluendo.com] options [cnr.com].
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
Somebody (meaning you) still has to pay for the license in that copy of PowerDVD after all. Windows machines don't support a lot of standard codecs out-of-the-box either. Just try playing a XviD movie on a stock PC with Windows Media Player. Oh, yeah, I remember, Windows tells me it needs to find the codec, then it fails to do so. And this is easier for a novice user because....?
I've bought a lot of Dell hardware in my career, and in general I'm pretty happy with Dell. But I agree with others here who say they just haven't done the job with their new Linux lines. Why GNOME and not KDE, a much more Windows-like desktop? Why no codecs and other multimedia support? Why no fine-tuning of the touchpad driver if that's an issue? You don't think Dell ignores issues like that when they configure their standard XP or Vista images, do you?
And, yes, if they're going to sell Linux machines then they damn well need to support them. Does that mean they may not make as much on Linux machines in the short term? Perhaps, since they'll need to build a support staff. In the longer run, they'll discover they're getting a lot fewer support calls per Linux machine than they do for Windows.
I'm not saying it'll be easy to sell Linux machines to a mass audience, but it's not impossible. It does require that the OEM put a little effort into it. If Walt there is having troubles with his trackpad, whose fault is that? Hint, it's not Canonical's.
Oh, and it wouldn't hurt to bundle Firefox, Thunderbird, and OpenOffice on those Windows machines you sell either, Mr. Dell.
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:4, Funny)
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:4, Informative)
The suspend issue (volume applet crashing) is a bug which Dell shouldn't have let slip, whilst the Synaptics issue is easily solvable with third party tools and has a specification here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GnomeTouchpadManager [ubuntu.com] .
Yes those are problems, but seriously, the number of people who think that such things are what's holding back the fabled Linux Desktop are delusional. Firstly they should look into chaos theory, there's no way everything can be controlled and still end up with a useful system. Secondly, Windows has masses of problems, like, for instance, no DVD support. The side by side comparisons of Windows vs. Ubuntu vs. OSX are only useful as eyeball attractors for adverts, the real problem in the way of the Year of the Linux Desktop is that of positive feedback loops. People use Windows because people develop for Windows because people use Windows, people use Windows so they can use Microsoft Office because the people they know use Microsoft Office, etc. Free Software systems make a point of NOT locking their users in, thus users' choice is usually between either a Free Software system like Ubuntu which sacrifices some locked-down functionality of other systems, or using a non-free system (basically, Windows) which has some functionality Microsoft restricts from their competitors along with all of the Free Software functionality happily made available by the Free Software community (OpenDocument-compatible office suites, Ogg codecs, etc.).
This makes standards adoption the most important issue to tackle, in my opinion. If files are made available in open formats via standard protocols then the locked-down functionality of systems is minimised, and thus the choice becomes more level. Hopefully a feedback loop can be established for standards, but the whole idea of standardisation means that such a loop can be sabotaged, basically since Microsoft can easily support Ogg formats in Windows Media Player and OpenDocument in Microsoft Office, but by keeping Windows Media and proprietary Office formats (including OOXML) around they once again have the upper hand, everything that Free Software supports can be matched, but Windows Media and Office formats by their very nature can't be competed with.
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:5, Informative)
No, it does not. Vista Home Premium and Vista Ultimate are the very first versions of Windows to include DVD playback capability -- all other versions of Windows (including other Vista versions) do not have the ability to play DVD videos.
If your computer play DVDs out of the box, it means that the system integrator installed DVD player software and codecs for you. You paid for it, separate from Windows.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There is a problem here somewhere... Dell buys PowerDVD, resells it, and makes a profit in so doing. Dell uses Open Source products for free, sells them with Dell hardware and... Makes even more profit. If Dell does have to pay licensing fees for certain codecs, those fees could easily be reflected in the price of the computer. I don't know how codecs typically price, but it can't be much. Looking at some links posted above, an
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
That was my experience... (Score:5, Informative)
done by Dell. They just installed the basic Ubuntu and shipped it with the system at the step where it asks for a user name and all that. I had to spend significant time configuring the NVidia drivers, sound card, and audio/video codecs (probably a few hours altogether). I would bet that it would take days for someone new to linux to figure out how to do all that. For shame Dell... How hard would it have been to configure Ubuntu with the right drivers at least and then ghost that system onto every box you shipped.
Another interesting note about comparing it to Windows and OS X... I installed Windows XP SP2 in a dual boot configuration so I could play some games. Good god almighty, setting up windows was painful. I must have visited a dozen different sites, downloading 200MB in drivers, before I got everything working. The damned network card didn't even work after the initial install. I had to boot into Ubuntu, save the network driver to a USB key and then boot back into Windows. Also, I've had the system set up for about 3 weeks now and I still can't get the sound to work in windows. I've looked all over the web for the right windows sound driver with 0 luck. As for OSX, I still haven't been able to even install it! Oh wait, OSX only runs on Apple hardware... My forgot. Seriously though, if anyone know how to get the sound working in windows on an XPS 410 box, please let me know!
For those of you who are touting this story as a demonstration of linux's failure on the desktop, sod off. This wasn't a failure on the part of linux or ubuntu. This was a failure on the part of Dell in not providing a fully installed and configured system.
As a review for the Dell XPS 410:
After a Windows XP fresh install:- Network card: not working
- Video card: working but at 1024x768 with no 3d acceleration
- Sound card: not working (still not working, even after weeks of trying to find a driver)
After a Ubuntu fresh install:Re:That was my experience... (Score:5, Informative)
It should not be possible for a fresh install of an OS to not have any video whatsoever.
But try installing the current version of Kubuntu on a Dell Latitude D630. This is possibly the most commonly purchased corporate laptop in the universe at the moment.
But do an install and just nothing
To get past this initial problem, I had to (after consulting with the local linux expert) actually go into the grub boot editor, and remove the
At that point, I could get a terminal, but still no X.
So right out of the bat, a standard nvidia video card, and the Intel a/b/g 3945, dont work out of the box. These are the two most common video cards and wifi cards in existence.
The broadcom 43xx gigabit nic was wonky as well, and it would cause error messages to flash across the terminal every 30 seconds or so. Even inside Vim, right across my content! I had to blacklist the drivers there.
And look at the insanity that has to be done to get it working:
http://www.control.aau.dk/~jdn/linux/d630/index.php?id=startside [control.aau.dk]
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=481651&page=12 [ubuntuforums.org]
Video should always work, always, under every circumstance. There is no excuse not to have a generic framebuffer driver to fallback to. There is no excuse for an obscure grub startup setting to stop you from having command line access.
I'm not expecting everything to work out of the box, but there has to be generic fallback drivers.
I will say that the experience once I got the nvidia drivers downloaded and started was outstanding. NVidia makes a really nice script/program to build and install drivers, and fully configure X. That was really nice.
But why do I need the windows driver for my wifi card to use it under linux? Doesnt Intel open source their linux drivers?
Then after all that, everything was flaky and buggy. Gaim/Pidgin would randomly duplicate its own windows. Thunderbird crashes alot. Evolution would just 'disappear' after like the 3rd install wizard screen. No crash message, no warning, no complaint, just 'poof' and its gone.
And its not like I'm doing anything tweaky to install these apps, just apt-get install whatever. Not sure how I could be doing that wrong.
And dont even get me started on standby/hibernate. And how LVM will sometimes decide that it cannot install itself
Now
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That was the problem with his review. He reviewed the product without understanding any of the policies regarding free to distribute software. His gripes included not playing DVD's (Licensing issue) MP3 playback (same) and some issues with dead sound after a hibernate (valid bug) and the touch pad sensitivity (hardware driver vendor issue).
If you evaluate Ubuntu and know up front that the stuff requiring an extra royalty to package with t
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
As someone who's worked with Linux both professionally and personally over the last 14 years, I often give Linux a try on the desktop. Each year or so, I'll switch to the current predominant "desktop" Linux. I tried Ubuntu, and for the first time in those 14 years, this was actually a Linux I could use. Unfortunately, though, "use" was it. I'd say it was "ok" as a desktop experience. Ready for the average user? Not without a Linux geek to help them out. I
By "work with linux", do you mean upload PHP? (Score:4, Insightful)
And in that 14 years, you still haven't learned to check to see if your hardware is going to be supported in a recent kernel before you buy it? I guess you bought the wrong tablet PC, because we've deployed it quite successfully for use in idiot-proof AV systems, among other things.
As a linux user of 8 years, I think desktop distributions have come a long way in that time period, and I don't find them any more or less difficult to get working than a Windows OS.
I think the only reason that you were able to get Vista to work on your laptop is because it was supplied with an OEM support disk especially for your machine; they did all the hard work of getting it on there and correctly configured for you.
There are vendors who do this for linux if you care to look for them and pay the premium.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"To not admit that Windows and OSX are easier to operate, far more user friendly is just ignorant."
Well, I've only been using Ubuntu (and linux) for a few weeks, but I find it FAR EASIER than XP (I haven't used OXS, or Vista) in most respects. I can look up new software and install at a few clicks. When one beta I installed screwed up, it didn't kill the whole system. It un-installed as easily as it installed.
Most importantly, Ubuntu seems to be have a more intuitive and better organised desktop, w