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Linux Software

Linux for Home Electronics 170

Posted by michael from the it's-just-better-with-the-penguin dept.
ives writes "Matsushita (Panasonic) and Sony are going to develop a Linux platform for digital home electronic devices. The nice thing is that they want to release the jointly developed source code for this project under the GPL. The press release mentions open source, the GPL and even Richard Stallman :^)."
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Linux for Home Electronics More

Linux for Home Electronics

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  • Good (Score:1, Funny)

    by horcy ( 545339 )
    Now i can finally run linux on my electrical toothbrush... w00t

  • Wow (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @10:04AM (#4914801)
    While the Sony's have lived in the modern world for awhile, and have gotten it, as well as being on both sides of it, Matsuhita electric is perhaps the most traditional and conservitive of Japanese companies. I have known these people (Matsushita) for much of my life, from some of their board members down. This is an organization so steeped in it's own traditions and dogma (yes, they really do have a "250 year" business plan, and never make fun of the founders light bulb socket :), with engineering departments so conservitivily organized, that for them to support open development of GPL software is really much like the Pope encouraging contraction!

    • Re:Wow (Score:5, Insightful)

      by krisguy ( 120047 ) <krisguy@@@krisguy...com> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @11:44AM (#4915123) Homepage
      It makes good business sense to use GPL-ed software when you want to devise a new product.

      1. Low cost or no cost.
      2. If you give geeks a chance to play with it, they can start to tell regular people how it works, why they should get it, etc.
      3. Since most "regular" people don't care or don't want to know why it works the way it does, if the people who care why it works (geeks), show others that it just works, others will be inclined to buy that product.

      The moral: Most people will buy something if it simply works. Sony and Panasonic are letting us make sure it works before they mass-release.

      Great strategy for the companies and I get to fullfil my hacker tendancies!
      • 2. If you give geeks a chance to play with it, they can start to tell regular people how it works, why they should get it, etc.
        3. Since most "regular" people don't care or don't want to know why it works the way it does, if the people who care why it works (geeks), show others that it just works, others will be inclined to buy that product.
        Sorry but NO. They are not using GPL because they can get free help from geek people, they are doing that so they only have to focus on the underlying electronics.

        BTW, that's were fight for in the market: Eletronics enginnering, who makes the cheaper decoding IC, who uses it, who haves the better design, etc. etc.

    • Re:Wow (Score:4, Funny)

      by RealAlaskan ( 576404 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:57PM (#4915885) Homepage Journal
      ... that for them to support open development of GPL software is really much like the Pope encouraging contraction!

      Well, I hate to rain on your parade, but given the Catholic Church's position on contraception, and the fact that ``contraction''s are what force the baby out, I'd say that the Pope does encourage contraction!

    • much like the Pope encouraging contraction!

      Since he is against contraception, doesn't the Pope already encourage contractions?

    • Re:Wow (Score:2, Funny)

      by m_cuffa ( 632043 )
      You mean "contraception", right? I'm not so sure the Pope loses sleep at night over whether the Expos and Twins will be losing their ballclubs... ;)
    • ...is really much like the Pope encouraging contraction!

      Da' Pope don't support contraction!
      An' don' you forget it!

  • Sony has a Linux PVR on the market in Japan. (Score:4, Interesting)

    by greensquare ( 546383 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @10:20AM (#4914822)
    According to this yahoo article [yahoo.com] Sony/Panasonic already have a PVR device on the market in Japan that is using Linux called Cocoon.

    It makes sense, cost, robustness, development time,....

    And this way they don't support MS, who is their competitor.

  • GPL friendly corporations ??? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by kedi ( 583806 ) <kedi AT juo DOT nu> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @10:20AM (#4914823)
    Looks like some companies have finally accepeted that GPL is not hostile to property and profit.

    • Cold down here. (Score:5, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @10:28AM (#4914854)
      Hell really is freezing over. Please send us some hot coffee down here asap.

    • GPL is your friend, (Score:2, Interesting)

      by vilbel ( 632150 )
      if you compete against Microsoft. They hope that the total cost for the Linux platform will be less than licensing cost for a technical equal Windows platform. So they can save lots of money and don't found the Xbox. And Microsoft can't use any of the public code in their proprietary software, because it's GPL.

      But I do not believe, that they will release everything as GPL. New technologies like Super Audio CD (SACD) will, according to Philips and Sony, never ever appear in a PC. But releasing the driver for the drive and the filesystem could misled someone to play with the hardware and build some SACD-drives into a PC. So he could rip again the music.
      • you know, this is not a true statement. GPL does nothing to help Oracle. Or Palm. Or any of millions of companies that compete against MS. They create just as much intellectual property that helps them differentiate from their competition as MS does. Aligning with Linux DOES compete with MS, aligning with the GPL as the unwanted side effect of killing all your IP.
  • OK,

    Yesterday, I needed to do a side job for a friend and instead of running CAT5, I used some of the new powerline ethernet [netgear.com] stuff. What has me impressed is that this stuff was *dead reliable* and quite compact for its first iteration. What happens when it shrinks and we see this stuff built into TVs and alarm clocks?

    Aside from your toaster manufacturer snooping your toasting habbits, your alarm clock will be able to pull MP3s from the home server. Your TV will pull the funniest commercials (ala the late adcritic.com) from the Tivo ranking database. Create a standard for it all, and you've got some remarkable integration.

    With this, it hopefully will not be called "DirectHOME" or something like that...
    • No, it will be called either $HOME or ~/
    • Create a standard for it all, and you've got some remarkable integration.

      But I don't want my toaster oven noticing that this is the third time this week I've had toast slathered with 1/4 stick of butter and two teaspoons of honey, double checking with the bathroom scale, collaborating with the fridge to lock me out, then instructing my tivo to stop recording the x-files and start recording all those home workout shows and exercise infomercials, then finally telling my puter not to let me log into /. until I do a few situps first.

    • Is it really? It's just more moving parts, more electronics to break. Where is the real benefit, aside from the geek factor, to having your alarm clock play MP3s? It won't give you the weather... or do you pull a weather feed down from the Internet and text-to-speech it? There's something that does that already... called RADIO.
      And who says I want ANY commercials on my TV?
    • So how good is the Netgear kit? I'm guessing it's half-duplex. And does it 'leak' - the spec says 'works across circuit breakers and phases', so can everybody in your friend's street see his data?
      • Yup, that's exactly what it means - I've been evaling similar equipment of late, and basically everything on the same transformer is one network. Also, high noise devices (like vacuum cleaners) dirty up the signal badly. Powerline Ethernet is really very similar to Wireless, security and reliability wise.
    • That all sounds great and wonderful.

      Unfortunately, the power lines in my house aren't even capable of sending the signals X-10 devices* use from outlet to outlet in the same room. I can't imagine getting MP3 files through them.

      * I have X-10 home automation stuff that was made long before the current wave of spy cameras and pop-up ads.
  • apparently /. is now serving their content of one off these....
  • Hmmm, nice moniker: HAL

    Now we know whats going to happen when the kernel is in charge....

  • I'm already cringing... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by tmark ( 230091 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @10:36AM (#4914864)
    I'm already cringing at what I *know* is going to happen. They're going to release some stuff - exactly what they're obligated to - under the GPL. But other stuff - say DRM - will certainly NOT be under the GPL. Then there's going to be such a hoopla and whining in forums such as this one even though these companies have done exactly what they're obligated to. "They should give back to the community", etc, ad nauseum, and some people will be wondering why, if the open/free software implies some sort of larger obligation to a community, why these weren't written into the licenses.
    • If they release a combined software-product based on Linux and some DRM, they also have to release the source to the DRM. At least thats how I understand the GPL.

    • Put your tinfoil cap on (Score:5, Insightful)

      by smiff ( 578693 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @02:51PM (#4916944)
      I'm already cringing at what I *know* is going to happen. They're going to release some stuff - exactly what they're obligated to - under the GPL. But other stuff - say DRM - will certainly NOT be under the GPL.

      You aren't cringing enough. They don't need to keep DRM code closed source. They will simply design the system so it won't run unsigned code. If you make one tiny improvement to the code and recompile, it won't work. You will have no choice but to use Sony/Panasonic code.

      If you find a security hole, you will have to wait for the vendor to fix it. If you want to create software for the system, you will have to get the vendor's permission. In essense, it defeats the whole point of Open Source (putting you control, letting you improve the system, letting you fix the bugs, etc.).

      Of course I'm just speculating. It's possible they'll release the system without DRM, but coming from Sony, I seriously doubt it.

      • It also depends a bit on their DRM structure. DRM is definitely not my expertise, but the frameworks I have seen usually involve some central source that monitors and verifies or denies access, keys, what-have-you. Even if they hand out all the client code, it will probably have to access some DRM server that is not public. Sure, you could change the client code to access some other DRM server, but then you might not be able to get the content you want. Perhaps a free-based DRM framework project is needed?
    • But other stuff - say DRM - will certainly NOT be under the GPL.

      So just delete it.

  • The press release mentions ... Richard Stallman (Score:3, Funny)

    by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @11:04AM (#4914925) Journal
    Well, to be fair it specifically says:

    "TELL THAT BEARDED LUNATIC TO STOP CALLING US!"

    It could mean almost anyone (whos a bearded lunatic).

  • Makes sense... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mshiltonj ( 220311 ) <mshiltonj@NoSPaM.gmail.com> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @11:43AM (#4915114) Homepage Journal
    If you want to sell the hardware, give the software away for free.

    You hear that, Intel?

  • why do we care? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by kr4jb ( 200152 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @11:46AM (#4915141) Homepage
    Why do we care what OS runs inside of an embedded device? As long as it is reliable, I don't care if it runs QNX, VxWorks, OSE, RT Linux or any other (proven, real time) operating system.

    • You mean, 'why do we care about this as long as there are open standards that everyone follows even big giant 8000lb monkey-software corporations"

      It's not the OS it's the interfaces that are important.

    • Re:why do we care? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by pointwood ( 14018 ) <jramskov@ g m a i l . com> on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @12:42PM (#4915711) Homepage

      I don't. I care about whether it is open. Do it use free, open standards, protocols, etc.? That's what is important. What I'm talking about is http://sincerechoice.org/ [sincerechoice.org].

    • If you care about seeing the usage of free software increase, particularly at a corporate level, then you care about this. If you don't, then you don't, and I hope you have a nice day.

    • Multimedia is a special case (Score:1, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Multimedia is a case where openness is more important than it might be in other applications. While there's nothing really wrong with a proprietary player application or having a player run on a proprietary OS, there does seem to be a slight tendency for proprietary software to use proprietary formats, and for open software to use open formats.

      If the designer decides to use Linux, it implies something about their values, which further implies that you will have fewer interoperability problems. The implications can be wrong, of course: it's just a very general trend.

    • Sony sucks. And not just because they're members of ??AA (their film subsidiary is an MPAA member, is it not?).

      Sony makes overpriced, underperforming crap gear in every consumer electronics category. They are only able to sell their junk thanks to their marketing department. The last good, innovative product they had was the original Walkman.

      They can support Linux all they want - I'm happy for Linux if it helps it get more mainstream acceptance (although, embedding it in a consumer product is NOT going to help Linux on the desktop, don't kid yourself). However, I will not buy anything that comes from Sony. I've been burned by their poor quality and lack of support one time too many.

    • Is it really so black and white? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Argyle ( 25623 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @01:24PM (#4916119) Homepage Journal
      Are there only two choices? Good or evil?

      Perhaps we techno-geeks need to stop thinking about everything in the real world in binary terms.

      The world is an analog place, not a digital one.
  • I would likely be prepared to shell out some cash for a Sony-produced linux based component that would really work well in my living room. Being able to run linux on the PS2 is not quite enough for my needs. It would have to really integrate well with other AV components.
  • Hey, look at that flying pig!
  • from the I-read-this-already-on-Yahoo dept. ?

    Is Slashdot relevant anymore?

  • Seems like most PVR's... (Score:4, Informative)

    by xchino ( 591175 ) on Wednesday December 18, 2002 @11:55AM (#4915249)
    It seems to me that most commercial PVR's are running on a Linux platform, not to mention the several PVR projects for Linux such as MythTV [mythtv.org] and Freevo [sourceforge.net].

    I use both of these and they both work great (with much tweaking on my part) and I don't have to deal with any of the PVR bs like commercials or having to subscribe.. which makes all the work it took in getting a solution working up more than worth it. If more people would support one of these projects it could easily grow into an easy to use package that anybody can setup in a realatively short time and we can circumvent DRM. "You wanna stick DRM on all the PVR's? Fine, my PC is DRM-less.. do something about it."

    • If more people would support one of these projects it could easily grow into an easy to use package that anybody can setup in a realatively short time and we can circumvent DRM. "You wanna stick DRM on all the PVR's? Fine, my PC is DRM-less.. do something about it."
      Intel, AMD, and Microsoft are doing something about it.
  • Sony and MS don't get along well. There's always been some tension between those two and Sony doesn't mind pouring a little alcohol on the open wound known as the embedded/console market.

    That which does not kill me only makes me stronger (but hurts ALOT!)

  • Am I the only one that thought of that pun when I saw this story?

  • GPL motivation (Score:2, Interesting)

    by gr8_phk ( 621180 )
    They want to use existing code to save development costs. They realize what they are selling (hardware) and don't mind that they MUST release source for their derivative work (based on GPLed code), so they make the most of it and try to sound like they support OSS - which in some sense they actually do.

    I am amused at how a lot of companies don't realize what they are actually selling. This is a refreshing change.

    Paul

  • Sony and Matsushita has both a common ennemy -> Microsoft Microsoft is attacking Sony on their Playstation business, where as Matsushita has very good relationship with Nintendo (they make the mini-dvd player of the Gamecube, and the Gamecube Q)
  • So, why should we? My job is to design, implement, and administer networks for customers. Some of these are quite large networks and some are small but they all have one thing in common: in order to take care of them I have to understand the way all the components work. Ahhh.... I just heard a penny drop.

    I spec Cisco routers and switches because I understand how they work and know that they will do the job. The customer doesn't have to pay me to spend time figuring out how to fix a problem; once I know what the problem is the chances are I can put a fix in quickly. Often without leaving my office! This saves the client money and, not coincidentally, makes me look good.

    If Sony puts Linux into a device then I already have a better chance at understanding how to make that device work than if some engineer had designed his (or her) own idea for a cool command set.

    And because Sony now doesn't have to put all that extra money into designing the OS, that means that their products will cost less. I can put their products into a network and save money on both ends: the procurement end and the administration end. This makes Cisco scramble to lower prices to keep market share. So even if we don't use Linux devices, the costs for networks goes down just because these devices are out there.

    In short, I care what the underlying OS is on these devices because I don't have to learn a zillion different commands for the same things and I can, therefore, do my job quicker and more efficiently. You should care because when you get a job at a company you can hire me to do your network and look good when we save you money.
    • I got so carried away with my own rhetoric that I neglected to tie it in to home electronics so here goes:

      Thirty years ago anyone who understood electronics theory and vacuum tubes could fix any home electronic device. Simply understanding how electronic circuits worked meant that a tech could move from one device to another. And manufacturers didn't have to design a new theory for each device, they just wired up the vacuum tubes in new ways which were still understandable. All a tech had to do was look at the schematic diagram, apply a few standard tools (oscilloscope, VTVM, signal injector, etc.) and he (or she) could make it work.

      So if Sony uses Linux in its latest widget and you understand Linux, you'll understand how your widget works and how to get the most out of your widget. Plus, since Sony didn't have to design a brand new widget-operating-system, you will either be able to buy it cheaper than the Samsung widget or it will do more... or both. And if your widget breaks you won't have to buy a new one, you can just flash the bios and make it just like new.

      So putting widely known operating systems into devices saves money for both the manufacturer and the consumer. This makes us all happier and a few of us wealthier. If you learn Linux, and Linux is the OS they put in all these devices, you have a better chance of joining that few. :)
      • So putting widely known operating systems into devices saves money for both the manufacturer and the consumer.

        Assuming, of course, said operating system can perform the job effectively and efficiently. Thanks to our superb kernel hackers, linux is quite scalable. It works good both on the embedded scale and the supercomputer scale. But one can imagine situations where linux would not be the best solution. In fact, until recently linux wasn't very scalable at all and it would have been a terrible idea to try and use it in embedded devices, even if it IS familiar to most geeks.

        Remember Windows CE? I actually think it is still around, but when it first came out it was vastly inferior to PalmOS. Windows was designed to work on a desktop, not in an embedded device. It didn't matter that it was an interface that was already familiar to a lot of people. It wasn't a good tool for the job.
  • So what do we reckon the chances are of them embedding open source software in secure hardware devices such as SACD players, digital TVs, palladium PCs and set top boxes? I'd say with, for example, Sonys hardware and software interests the chances are less than nil.

    seany
  • RMS may be mentioned in the press release,
    but he is still going to be upset (and
    quite rightly so):

    "Linux is well known as an operating system"

    Linux is a kernel.

    How hard is it to get important pieces of texts
    like press releases without blatant errors?

    Bram
  • I'll be able to use my toaster as a router, my fridge as a switch, and the bathroom sink as a WAP.

    And there'll still be lag because of the bandwidth hog ceiling fan. Yes, I know you're still rotating!

  • Sony and RIAA (Score:2, Insightful)

    by covertlaw ( 599559 )
    Doesn't it seem a little ironic for a card-carrying RIAA member to be embracing Open Source/GPL for their products? I wonder if they'll try to make some kind of modification or licensing deal to screw Panasonic and the rest of the world from using this embedded system.

  • Good, but not enough. (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Goldenpi ( 614328 )
    Unusual for Sony to consider going open. Usually they make very propritary technology, such as Minidisc, Memory stick, Magicgate and SACD. This looks a lot like they dont care what they put in their boxes, as long as its cheap. Windows embedded isn't cheap, and it would probably mean adding more RAM too. Just because the systems run linux doesn't mean people will be able to mess with them easily. Its unlikely the appliances will have a convenient RS232 port to plug a terminal into, or a keyboard. People may be able to make some adjustments to the OS, but thats about it. As someone said earlier, even through some code will be released the all-important DRM technology will not. It wont be covered under the GPL as its not part of linux. Without the DRM code and keys the source code wouldn't be much good. You could rewrite sections of the code, recompile, and put it on the drive (or flash a chip for smaller appliances) but what then? The other appliances wouldn't trust it, if it has a hard drive it will be encrypted so the recompiled kernel wouldn't read it. Like most DRM systems it would be an all-or-nothing system. If you really wanted you might be able to recompile a DRM-free kernel and somehow get it to execute, but unless all the other appliances were also rewritten you wouldn't be able to view anything other then your move movies (unless someone breaks the DRM of course) Microsofts response should be quite intresting through. They only have two embedded OS platforms, windows CE and windows XP embedded. Both are a bit on the large side. MS is not going to remove all those fancy skins and 16-bit icons, so they might start marketing more agressivly. Assumeing the whole thing doesn't fade into obscurity, with a complete OS but noone makeing appliances using it, this is certinly good. But dont expect the Microsoft empire to collapse just yet. Like MS, Sony guards its propritary technology carefully. They arn't going to just give away source for playing SACDS or decryption codes for OpenMG.
    • Very true. Using open-source code in part of the design might have the beneficial side-effect, to them, of pacifying people who want to tinker - in the example of SACD players they could for example allow us to use their visualisation API to draw nice pretty pictures to go with the music, but you can guarantee we wouldn't get access to the bitstream itself. Sly buggers.

      seany
  • The problem with everyone getting so damn happy about Linux being embedded is that as tough as it is to write Linux apps, it is doubly tough for embedded. And just cause they use it does not mean much. Do you really care what brand of engine is on the jet you ride? No, of course not. Are Sony and company going to open up and let you change their software or they just going to use Linux inside (and slap on a Linux Inside label (made out of all the left over Intel Inside labels))? Look at the great Tivo. It built a great product on top of Linux but about all you can do is upgrade the hard disk [google.com].

    What we really need is much better tools and hardware. One really geat beginning to that need just was released - Qplus Target Builder [etri.re.kr]. This is the first decent open source embedded toolkit. Check it out - soon to be moving to sourceforge.

    But then you also need some good hardware and its nearly impossible for the hobbyist to figure out what is decent and what is drek in all the offerings out there. Then you look at the prices and they are out of control. Has anyone found a good source of fanless embedded hardware that does not cost over $500 for a $100 piece of hw? Send me [mailto] mail if you have.

  • That's really cool that they are going to release their modifications. There generosity knows no bounds. I mean wow, it's not like the license for the software they are modifying requires them to release those modificaitons... er...

    Nevermind...

    Don't get me wrong though, this is great news regardless :)
  • "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

    This saying applies even if your "friend" is otherwise your enemy. In fact, that's largely the point of the saying. "Friend" and "enemy" are, for the most part, simply relative terms, not absolutes.

    Think FDR vs Stalin during WWII.

    Matsushita and Sony may be bitter "hometown rivals," but there is a foreign enemy, far across the Pacific Ocean, in the new land of capitalist barbarians.

    First secure the homefront. THEN cut your neighbor to ribbons. It's traditional.

    KFG
  • If devices really start to become more customizable by the end user, I could see a migration of small TV repair shop type places staring a sideline of device customization - add pictures of the kids/dogs/cats to menus, customize features like macros to do just what the user wants.

    A lot of people never take the time to use even slightly advanced features on devices, so a lot of people might be willing to spend a few extra dollars on macros that do slick stuff for them.
    • neat idea, but i think much more likely than per instance jobs you will see a rash of shops selling pre-made software modules that you can plug in as you desire

      want butterflies flying around your PVR menus? 19.95 from TVMod Inc.
      or choose from any one of our 50+ decorations and menu animations!

      actually now that i think about it i might end up forming a new start up after work today ;)

      • I put the idea out there so I'd be able to buy something like it in a year or so. Or, perhaps I'll start the same business and one of us can buy out the other in a year!
  • Hmmm, is this bad news for Symbian then? Surely in the long run Linux will start running on our mobile phones and everything else...

    Here's hoping for linux toaster for chrimbo.
  • You people actually want Sony developing Linux? WTF is going on here. Sony is basically our worst enemy. They practically are the RIAA. They just want to get their hands dirty with kerenl development so they can magically appear with DRM patches for the kernel when USA outlaws non-DRM enabled Operating systems and hardware.
  • Here is info on Sony's Linux PVR Cocoon:

    http://www.sony.jp/products/Consumer/cocoon/

    It's uses MontaVista's Linux which is likely what this project is based after.

    So Sony's Cocoon should be a good example what this alliance may produce.

    Also you can check out the previous /. article about this product:

    http://slashdot.org/articles/02/09/04/1328209.sh tm l?tid%129

  • I think it's great to see more Free Software being released. I welcome more Free Software programmers and their Free Software projects. But I think the importance of freedom is being ignored to chase what's popular and convenient here and now. I also see some potential for mistaking the advances of a freedom-minded movement for the advances of a freedom-dismissing movement.

    From the press release:
    "While Linux is well known as an operating system for personal computers and servers, today it is also finding applications in the area of digital home devices."

    Linux is not an operating system, it is and has been a kernal. The Linux kernal is an important portion of a complete GNU/Linux operating system but it is just a portion (no matter how many people say otherwise) and it's not fair to ignore GNU. There are compelling reasons [gnu.org] to take the time to mention GNU [gnu.org] when you are talking about a complete operating system.

    The great stuff we all appreciate in GNU came from a movement that pays a lot of attention to software freedom. The Open Source movement (which curtly dismisses the importance of software freedom) came over a decade later, well after the GNU GPL had been published and in wide use; well after the pragmatic idealism of the Free Software community had published a lot of Free Software. So please don't misattribute the gains of freedom (both practical and ethical) to the wrong movement.

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