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Linux boots on MIPS palm-sized computers 69

Posted by CmdrTaco from the ain't-that-cool dept.
SheldonYoung writes "Brad LaRonde and friends have Linux up and running on NEC MIPS Vr41xx palm-sized machines, such as the Casio E-100 and Vandem Clio. Those interested can grab the source and documentation from his Linux-MIPS Pages. "
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Linux boots on MIPS palm-sized computers More

Linux boots on MIPS palm-sized computers

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  • My coworker has a WinCE device (NEC I think) and I must say, the one feature I love about it is INSTANT ON and OFF. Turn it on and boom, right where you left off, no waiting for bootup. That rocks!! Waiting for bootup sucks, especially on portable devices that you may take to class, meetings etc... I would like to see someone develop a plugin cartridge (nintendo style) that contains the OS, slap it in the side of your computer and boom instant Linux, NT, Solaris whatever... virus's couldn't fuck with you. Use a hard disk for user files... want to compile a new kernel? Flash the old rom.
  • A co-worker of mine has the Casio e-100 and although I loathe WinCE (my gosh! wince!) it does some cool things like the ability to play MP3's and movies. He even created a web site with e-100 optimized versions of movie trailers. (PalmSizeMedia.com [palmsizemedia.com].) He also did a bunch of MP3 player skins.

    Once they get Linux driving that display I think I'll need to look at buying one. Linux in my hand would rool, although my Palm V pretty much kicks arse as it is!!
    ---
    Don Rude - AKA - RudeDude
  • Outdated? The *BSD's? Not a bad piece of flamebait you've got here, either. Clearly you get all your info about technology from sites like /. instead of actually trying the different technologies yourself. A couple years ago I'm sure you said that "NT rules and UNIX drools", didn't you? All that press coverage and hype over NT swayed you to the dark side, didn't it? Now you've jumped on the Linux bandwagon and you're still cool (in your own mind). Whatever my opinions of which OS is the "best" (although none are best in ALL situations ;) I have to say that anyone with any real experience with the multiple OS's would find that the BSD's are here to stay. It is not necessary for a OS to get lots of press for it to be any good, or for that matter, for it to be the BEST. Period.
  • Newton hardware, as great as it was for its time, is poorly documented in Apple tradition. The hardware is also relatively expensive (~$500 used) . Besides, porting Linux to Windows CE allows one to 'liberate' another platform from Microsoft. ;-)
  • "Instant ON" usually means that the device was never really off, just in a suspended state. My Palm IIIx takes about 6 seconds to reboot after a reset. As for an OS cartridge, you can get a flash memory card with an IDE interface, and put your root file system on it. However, you will still have to wait for the kernel to autoprobe various bits of hardware, so you won't get an instant on. The real solution for desktop computers is (1) get the OS stable and modular enough that you rarely need to reboot, and (2) reduce the power drawn by a suspended PC to a point where you won't notice that it's on (i.e. no fans, and hard disks all spun down).
  • Do you know what a beowulf cluster is? I'll give you a hint, its not for webserving. PVM and MPI would be useless for 99.99% of web applications out there. In other words, it might be interesting to make a web serving cluster out of those 486s, but it would NOT be a beowulf. Go read the beowulf FAQ, it covers what exactly a beowulf is and isn't.
  • andrewgaul wrote:

    Newton hardware, as great as it was for its time, is poorly documented in Apple tradition.

    Poor documentation may be a Macintosh tradition, its not an Apple tradition. I remember when the Apple ][ came with not only more documentation than any PC's today come with, but included in the documentation were tidbits like the complete and commented assembly code of what's in each of the ROMs. I miss the Woz.

    Even with the Macintosh, you can get more complete and accurate documentation than some systems I can think of (you just gotta pay for it).

    ----
  • Please remember that Intel got the Strongarm during the Digital carve-up, so your statement that these things have far lower power consumption than any intel CPU is laughably wrong.
  • I understand the Palm V has a months utility in one charging (~50 hours, est.). My Palm 3 goes a bit longer than that on two discount (Panasonic) AAA batteries.

    CE machines just can't compete. I have a MP130 which I loved, but that one took 4 AA's every week and a half, and that bit the big one. Great backlight though... until it stopped working.

  • I've been working with these devices for 2 years now, both on a consulting and personal level. I own a Compaq C-140 and a Philips Nino 210.

    There is an IBM Microdrive out which has 340MB space and a Flash ATA interface. If there is a way to compile PCMCIA and Flash ATA support into the kernel for this HPC Linux, and use this as a file system, this will be good.

    IBM will be releasing these Microdrives in increasing capacity over the next few years.

    This means that an HPC device will be able to run Linux well with good storage capacities, and possibly the ability to run extended desktops and the open source databases like mySQL without the nasty overhead of WinCE. Plus, it means I can carry a lot more with me in a smaller package.

    It also means that some of the vertical markets such as Data Collection that use HPC's can now use Linux instead of the three Windows variants (9x, CE, NT/NTE), and do well. It will be possible to create more reliable data collection devices that use already existing hardware, without worrying about the development issues currently in place, such as keeping three variant codebases. It also makes development and implementation much simpler, since you don't need the nasty amount of kit you need for CE to develop.

    Combined with a good PIM and a web browser, these devices will more than likely work better than straight CE. That, and the apps would be a LOT smaller.

    However, one issue that needs to be addressed is modems. Most of these devices, in particular the Mobilon/Clio, Compaq C-Series, Mobilon 4600 and 5000, Nino, and Casio, implement software modems. That issue needs to be cleared up, since most HPC's come with one PCMCIA/Flash slot.

    I am looking forward to putting Linux on the C-140 (SH-3) and prolonging its useful life. CE just runs too slow on it. A decent shell and the ability to run apps is all I really need.
  • And people thought those who ported OpenBSD to the Dreamcast has too much time on their hands.

    Along that vein, why isn't this "wacky"? Have Slashdot's editors decided to exercise editorial control over the thoughts of their readers?
  • I want to be able to boot Linux on my aero [compaq.com]. I wonder how much work will have to be done to get linux to boot on it?

    Thats really cool though, glad to see it being done.

    OBLIGATORY BEOWULF COMMENT: Lets build a beowulf of these little hand held devices and take over the world!!!
  • Hmmm, didn't see any screenshots... I wonder if it could do anything useful. not to mention the site feels like it's running off of a 56k modem.

    ----------
    Have FreeBSD questions?

  • Java (Score:1)

    by smartin ( 942 )
    Now if we could get the Java Micro edition to run under Linux on these things, we would have platform options at the palm top level!
  • Look at the pics of the products. I don't see any keyboards.
  • Comment removed based on user account deletion
  • Given that the machines in question have keyboards, reasonable CPUs and decent amounts of storage, they may actually make quite respectable portable UNIX boxes once the port is usable. It'd save one from having to lug around a laptop to have something that speaks UNIX and holds one's files.

    At least this makes more sense than the PalmPilot port; unless someone makes a handwriting recognition engine for Linux (and a shell that's not hideously painful to use in this manner), a Linux-based PalmPilot is useless unless you carry around a terminal to plug into it.
  • actually .. handwriting recognicion is not that hard, remember the story on slashdot about "quickwriting" ? some time ago .. or it could be done like (i know only the Nino, so forgive my onesidedness) on the Nino where you get a graphic keyboard representation and you "type" by tapping on individual letters ..
    it works for me

  • I thought I had read something about this but for the MP2K and the Pilot?

    I could be wrong. Mountain Dew has been known to cause hallucinations if you drink it by the gallon =)
  • The Vadem Clio is a really terrific looking piece of hardware. I have no need for a Windows CE machine, but if they can get X running on it and a wireless LAN card I'll definitely buy one.

    By itself the Clio's CPU is nothing to write home about, but with the full power and connectivity of a desktop machine presented over a lightly loaded wireless LAN to something with the Clio's form factor it will definitely be a great machine.

  • The Importance of This (Score:3)

    by drig ( 5119 ) on Wednesday August 25, 1999 @08:58AM (#1725782) Homepage Journal
    Palmtops are the wave of the future. All the analysts say this. Personally, I believe they will be important, but I tend to scoff at phrases like "the wave of the future". Regardless, palmtops provide the bulk of computing needs in a simple, portable form.

    Right now, you have two choices in palmtops. The Palm Pilot and WinCE. I like the Palm Pilot, but it's too restricted. WinCE machines offer a little more, but who wants to run WinCE?

    Linux on a palmtop offers, IMNSHO, the best option. You get the extra power for a WinCE machine (including keyboards), but you get a decent OS.

    Why hasn't this been done before? Because it's HARD! WincE machines don't have a lot of the goodies desktops have. Stuff like MMUs, open specifications, large hard drives, etc. Brad LaRonde, et al, should be given a number of coolness points here.

    They did something technically difficult
    They did something sexy
    They did something new
    They did it without a bunch of corporate sponsorship or hope of money and fame
    They did it OpenSource
    And just because They did it.

  • Re:This actually makes some sense... (Score:3)

    by alhaz ( 11039 ) on Wednesday August 25, 1999 @09:00AM (#1725783) Homepage
    If you poke around the Vadem site, or actually read the body text instead of just looking at the eyecandy on the front page, you'll notice that the Clio runs in both 'tablet' and 'notebook' modes - the screen can be flipped up to reveal a keyboard.

    On the other hand, the Clio is larger than many intel sub-notebooks (And i don't mean Librettos - I mean there are Sony Vaio's and Mitsubishi Amity's that are smaller), so it hardly fulfills the "with a keyboard" need uniquely.

    But the important thing is that the VR4111 code is stable, which will mean that we can start working on other Mips based wince systems soon.

    What i would really love is to get one of the smaller-than-a-vhs-tape keyboarded wince devices for a few years for a couple hundred bucks and run linux on that.

    Although, so far the Palm IIIx is as much computer as I've ever wanted in the pocket of my jeans, and may continue to be.

  • Hmmm, didn't see any screenshots... I wonder if it could do anything useful.

    ----------
    Have FreeBSD questions?
  • Linux has been running (more or less) on PSION for a while now... You can check it out here:

    http://www.calcaria.net/

    I would rather see linux on a WinCE machine though, as they usually have better expansion, faster proceesors, etc... But the PSION has a really nice keyboard, and the 5mx PRO boots from compactflash, so it would be possible to have a palmtop that is completely linux, with no other OS installed. And it works right now (which can't be said for the WinCE machines).
  • WinCE devices are not selling very well right now, dispite having hardware that is arguably better than that of a Palm Pilot. Manufacturers are having to drop the prices on these just to move them out the door.

    If Linux and BSD can get running well on these, and someone can develop a good, simple GUI (X doesn't count for this, I don't want to see Enlightenment an a screen that size) we may see this hardware come out faster with lower prices than before (no WinCE licensing fees to increase the price)

    These could be killer machines, running a Linux kernel and a GUI that is as simple as the Palm Pilot. Enough hobbyists will pick these up that there will be no shortage of free applications. Hell, even the compiler is free, so people wont need to shell out fot CodeWarrior as for the Palm Pilot.

    All in all, this could be very good news, and I am not usually one to evangelize Linux.

    Andrew
  • Nothing to write home about? the ratio of mips to milliwats is pretty damn impressive if you ask me, far lower power consumption than any intel cpu.

  • are you on crack ? GCC for the palmpilot is *the* way to do palmpilot development..gcc is free, the palmos emulator is free, the roms were free.
  • "Because we can."

    That phrase embodies why Linux ever came into existance.
  • Anyone got ideas on making a version of 68K Linux that could be loaded on a TI-89/92+ calc in the form of a FlashROM? We have the writer... and the 68K compatible kernel... now all we need is for linux to operate in 64k of ram (i think).
  • Remember? [umass.edu]
  • since BSD is dying
    This is the stupidest thing I've seen in a long time. *BSD has been growing for years and continues to grow today. There might not be as many seats installed as Linux, but that doesn't make it dying.
  • The iBook has a feature called "Save and shut down," or something to that effect, where the ram is saved as a file at the time of shutdown and thus can be started instantly in the exact state it was shut down. At least, that's how it's supposed to work. Since the iBook isn't shipping yet, who knows.
  • Nothing to write home about? the ratio of mips to milliwatts is pretty damn impressive if you ask me, far lower power consumption than any intel cpu.

  • NetBSD/hpcmips [netbsd.org] has been booting into multi-user for several months now, and is actually selfhosting for about two months now. I submitted a followup article to /., well see if they post it. A rough english translation of an old version of this page can be found on a link off this page. Netbsd/hpcmips is complete enough that it has started the process of integrating into the NetBSD tree and should be there in the next few weeks.

    You might want to check out my pdamips page [freebsd.org] for a complete list of MIPS based pdas. Please send me updates if I'm wrong about that :-)

    Re: Linux on the Aero, you may have problems getting enough technical data from Compaq to actually do this. It uses the slower 70MHz R3900 based MIPS processors (although I'm not sure if it uses the Phillips one, or the Toshiba one).

    Finally, this is booting Linux to a standalone shell. Much more work is needed before this will be useful. NetBSD/hpcmips allows one to login to the machine over the network! However, to the best of my knowledge, it doesn't have an X server or similar beast running on it at this time.

    Enjoy!

  • ahem... do you know what a psion is?
    it is a nice pda ( i have SERIOUSLY considered buying one - its that or a 486/early pentium linux notebook ), keyboard, touchscreen and everything. m$ considers psion, NOT palm, the biggest threat to wince.

  • Beowulf Obsessions on Slashdot (Score:4)

    by suitcase ( 4089 ) on Wednesday August 25, 1999 @10:00AM (#1725804)
    I, like most other readers of Slashdot, love cool shit. I love keeping up with the latest Linux port to ungodly small devices. This kinda stuff takes ingenuity, lotsa smarts, and is a testament to the flexability of Linux. But, please, this Beowulf fixation MUST go. Beowulf clusters are number crunchers for high intensity processing apps, not for retiring a crop of 386's, not for small devices, etc. Now if I had 500 Alphas gathering dust in my closet and was a little backlogged in my atomic research Beowulf would intrest me, but thats not happening. Please, somebody agree with me?

  • LinuxCE (Score:3)

    by Accipiter ( 8228 ) on Wednesday August 25, 1999 @10:02AM (#1725805)
    Being one who was on the developer list early on, I must say It's been a fun ride. (Not that the ride is over! Heavens, No!) Reading, and helping when I could, and seeing so many technological hurdles jumped, this marks a great time for LinuxCE.

    As for those who are wondering, MIPS isn't our only target platform. There are efforts currently in the works to get Linux ported to SH3 Handhelds, as well as StrongArm. (Nobody knows the progress here.)

    If you feel you can contribute, by all means, join in on the mailing list at linuxce.org.

    -- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

  • That would be the whole Dreamcast babble from yesterday. You really need to read more often :-) Except someone ported on of the BSDs (OpenBSD I'd assume, based on their page's logos)..

    FreeBSD seems to be the "ultra-scale" x86 specific BSD, so expect it to not be ported soon.
    NetBSD is the ultra-portable one.
    And OpenBSD is the ultra-secure, semi-portable (forked from NetBSD) one.

    I'd still rather use Linux, at least until Hurd becomes cool :-)

  • Why not the Apple Newton 2100 [apple.com]? That beast has a 162 MHz StrongARM CPU [arm.com] (optimized for "MIPS per milli-ampere" to begin with), 8MB of RAM, and a 4-bit greyscale touch screen, plus optional keyboard, and two PCMCIA slots.

    Sure, it's orphaned, but it'd be a kick-ass system...

  • on a Nintendo 64 too. Hmm maybe a server farm of haldhelds?
  • Normally I agree, but what's the fun of a hacker-owned OS like Linux if you don't do pointless things like port it to everything you can find. Moreso, those extra 486's I have laying around really would make a nice webserver if I tied them all into a beowulf. Am I obsessed with clustering? not really. Would it be a fun project? You betcha :-) Would I like to run a beowulf on PDAs? you betcha :-) Why? Because we can.
  • Isn't this the "Suspence" mode I'd been using for ages with my Libretto? (20 seconds) Toshiba has it's own hack "hibernation" mode which doesn't save memory at all and resume faster (6 seconds) but it draws battery and is kind of broken in my notebook. Libretto 50 resume faster than L100, but that's because every component is less complicated.

    CY
  • WinCE devices are not selling very well right now, dispite having hardware that is arguably better than that of a Palm Pilot.
    The hardware HAS to be better than the PalmPilot, considering the size of the applications running on it ...

    Ever seen a Palm with 8 MB ROM AND 8 MB RAM ?
    But .. I agree .. with Linux running on such a thing .. I'd go for one of these babies ... for the moment, I'd even be happy enough with a command shell on the display

    --

  • It has! (Score:1)

    by don.g ( 6394 )

    I have a genuine Compaq Aero 4/33C, fully expanded with a 240MB HDD and 12MB of RAM. A colour screen, too. It runs 2.2.2 with ext2fs-compr fine.

    Now if it wasn't for the fact that the serial number starts with 1992, and the thing's so old that @#!% Compaq has even recycled the name, you would have no problems.

    That, and X-windows over a 115.2Kbit null modem cable is slow.

  • The 48gx is a bad candidate. Last time I checked the Saturn was a real slow old CPU, and the hardware has problems accessing 1MB as a contiguous space (they use 128k bank switching).

    But if you're looking for a semi-gui OS calculator, maybe you're thinking of the hp49g -- same processor, just everything written in ML and a different Ram/Rom setup. (1mb ram?)
  • Quite a few laptops do this, e.g. IBM Thinkpads and no doubt most other name brands. I think there's someone working on 'snapshot to disk' equivalent functionality for Linux, but I don't have a URL.
  • I mean somewhere on the lines of what i gather to be the system memory use of TIOS, which is roughly 64k (?). But the TI-89 has about 1.2 Mb of flash rom into which it can write the TIOS for updates. Anyone with REALLY detailed information, please correct me if I am wrong.




    I dunno. I just got the 89 (after using the 82 for a year), and it's so nice having so much ram/archive space for stuff. Someone needs to make a perl/Python/TCL/Tk version for this thing!



    (btw, i looked at the hp48gx. I don't know. I think the TI is eaiser, yet no less powerful. maybe that's just because i have used them for so long...)
  • It's about as big as my laptop, these things fit in your pocket easily.
  • Why? Because we can.
    right on. why do you think we have computers in the first place? because we can. wasn't someone once quoted as saying that "there is a worldwide need for about 5 computers"? I can't remember who it was, but I know someone famous said that, long ago when computers first started out, and.. well, now, that wouldn't make much of a beowulf cluster to begin with.

    why do you think anything's done? because it can be done, and so someone's going to do it. (or someones.. or something.. or..)

    but you get my point

  • Re:SH3 (Score:1)

    by Szoup ( 61508 )
    I'll assume you mean porting to SH3-based WinCE devices. Don't know how far along they are, but you can keep any eye out from here:

    http://linuxsh3.cjb.net [cjb.net]
  • The Freestyle Associate A-10 that I'm using fits into my shirt pocket... The MIPS based PDAs run the gammet from small, Palm Sized boxes to huge machines nearly as large as many of the smaller laptops and some interesting things inbetween. The sheer variety of devices makes this an attractive target.
  • the average battery life of a 3Com device is 1.5 month, while the LONGEST battery life I know of any WinCE device is about 9 hours.
    The Uniden machine claims about a 30 hour life, which would give it about 21 days of use before needing a recharge. My Everex has about a 15 hour life with the new ultra alcs...

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