Oracle Creates Linux Division 96
MikeDartt writes "According to C|Net news, Oracle is devoting an entire division to creating a line of products for Linux. As the article notes, this isn't surprising, given Ellison's antipathy towards MS. Yet another announcement for LWE, eh? " Will this lead to even more enterprise credibility?
Re:Wrong arguments? (Score:1)
hacks with certificates hanging out their back pockets? Oracle Certified? whatever.
there are some amazing DBAs that work with commercial databases. there are also some terrific ones that work with open source RDBMs. for god's sake, how do you think Postgres was written? and writing a database is a might more difficult than using it, no?
no, it's not about talent out there (after all, how hard is it to learn another RDBMs once you understand the theory? not very.) but rather about features, dependability and availability
Re:Oracle 8i on Linux - WTF ? (Score:1)
Re:FreeBSD (Score:1)
I also don't want to sound like a Debian nut, but I must say that I like the Debian package management more (real packages not some makefiles.) One thing I don't like about ports is that one has to remake the ports after cvsuping the ports collection. When you upgrade Debian every deb package that is in distribution is upgraded. Second, I don't like compiling them all the time, some packages take a while to compile and all I wanted to see is how this cool-progie-2.3 works. On debian "apt-get install something" will get and install the something package. But yes, sometimes I do like getting the source to deb packages and rebuilding them to give better optimization for system.
And updating everytning in
Re:Cool, they sent me my 8i (Linux) CD today! (Score:1)
In the end, it's the corporation's ass that they care about. That's it. That's all. That is what _I_ despise.
Re:Oracle's desperate (Score:1)
You are an idoit, you know that? After all the MindCraft/PC Week benchmark bullshit, a company like Oracle would really have to stupid to allow their product to be "benchmarked" by a magazine like PC Magazine. They quite simply don't have either the knowlege or the skills to pull something like this off, and more and more people are realizing this. You're going to see even more companies refuse to allow their products to be "reviewed" in mags that use that kind of shoddy testing in the future.
Re:This rocks! (Score:1)
I personally am far from convinced of the viability of using ODBC and Oracle to create robust software usable by end users.
It may be that the native APIs are better, but are hardly what you would call 'high level'.
Oracle and ``Open Source'' (Score:1)
rms describes Oracle's ``Open Source'' strategy in
http://www.gnu.org/phi losophy/free-software-for-freedom.html [gnu.org]:
Re:Larry Ellison is a sailor? (Score:1)
Ellison is a wimpy dilettante, not a sailor. Contrast with Steve Fossett - super-rich *and* balls of steel.
Re:Cool, they sent me my 8i (Linux) CD today! (Score:1)
And yes, free software that is as good or better than commercial software is a great thing! But I can't agree with people like RMS that would rather use inferior free software than paying for a product that makes it easier to get the job done. It seems that that's artificially constraining our ability to be creative, solely so that you can view & alter the source code.
And i grant that for developers, the ability to be creative is highly dependant on the availablity of source code. Now what? I just backed myself in to a corner!
Oracle 8i on Linux - WTF ? (Score:2)
Chickens are coming home to roost. (Score:1)
A lot of this is due to the fact that there's a lot of bad blood between Microsoft and pretty much everyone else: Oracle, IBM, Dell, Gateway, and others.
Microsoft is currently reaping the rewards of their arrogance and bullying of the past. Oracle sees an opportunity to package a complete top-to-bottom database solution that kicks a lot of ass, and write Microsoft completely out of the picture. Initially, they picked Sun and Solaris, but that was before Linux took really off. If they had to do "Raw Iron" again, they would go with Linux -- no doubt about it.
A rather unique feature of Oracle's database design is that each database client is serviced by a separate task (well, that was true the last time I checked, a few years ago, but I'm sure that's still the case today). This is unlike their competitors - Sybase and Informix - whose database engines are basically single processes which multiplex themselves amongst all currect clients. The latest versions of their servers do support multithreading, but because multithreading is implemented differently on pretty much every *nix, they may not be able to take advantage of any particular platform's unique multithreading abilities.
Meanwhile, Oracle's database servers had separate processes servicing clients for at least a decade now. Which means that on SMP machines Oracle servers should be able to kick some major ass. I never actually had a chance to play with Oracle on a multi-CPU box, but knowing the way their servers work, I would expect them to positively smoke.
No wonder Oracle is salivating over Linux now. SMP on NT is a pathetic joke. With Solaris, you have to sign over your bank account to Sun, in order to purchase a multi-CPU license (I'm not sure if Solaris x86 even supports SMP). An Oracle solution on a Linux box with a couple of Xeons should have a rather impressive price/performance factor.
--
Re:Woo hoo! (Score:1)
you see:
(a) i was an Oracle consultant for better than 7 years. i also contributed to 2 tomes on SQL optimization in Oracle (if you think real hard you can figure out which ones).
(b) i've implemented massive real-time systems in Versant, ODI and Objy for companies like Ameritech, GTE, and AT&T. in all cases we replaced Oracle 7.x or 8 systems and acheived performance improvements measured in orders of magnitude.
i could go on but the topic was Linux and Oracle. I generally agree this is a good thing but methinks you toot the horn of Ideological dogma a bit much.
Re:Cool, they sent me my 8i (Linux) CD today! (Score:1)
Anyone else get there's yet? I ordered mine in May and I've had my free NT version for 2 months....
;-) (Score:1)
Re:Cool, they sent me my 8i (Linux) CD today! (Score:1)
I happened to have also recieved the Oracle CD... My business currently uses MS-SQL... So, it is nice to get Oracle 8 for "free" so as to be able to develop a system and only actually have to pay for it once it's been implemented in the workflow.
Like i said - sorry! I was in a very poor mood last night!
:)
Re:barely on-topic... (Score:1)
hacksaw > egrep "typedef.*uid_t" */* 2>
asm-alpha/posix_types.h:typedef unsigned int __kernel_uid_t;
asm-arm/posix_types.h:typedef unsigned short __kernel_uid_t;
asm-i386/posix_types.h:typedef unsigned short __kernel_uid_t;
asm-m68k/posix_types.h:typedef unsigned short __kernel_uid_t;
asm-mips/posix_types.h:typedef long __kernel_uid_t;
asm-ppc/posix_types.h:typedef unsigned int __kernel_uid_t;
asm-sparc/posix_types.h:typedef unsigned short __kernel_uid_t;
asm-sparc64/posix_types.h:typedef unsigned int __kernel_uid_t;
asm-sparc64/posix_types.h:typedef unsigned short __kernel_uid_t32;
asm/posix_types.h:typedef unsigned short __kernel_uid_t;
[deletia]
linux/types.h:typedef __kernel_uid_t uid_t;
So the answer is "depends". A short is signed, BTW. It's not clear how a a uid of 50,000 would be dealt with.
Re:Wrong arguments? (Score:1)
Comparing Oracle to Postgres or MySQL is just a poor decision. As is comparing Oracle on a 64 CPU Sun box vs. SQL Server running on a Quad Xeon...
Erm, uid of 50,000 is OK. (Score:1)
asm-i386/posix_types.h:typedef unsigned short __kernel_uid_t;
The uid is an unsigned, not signed, so anything between 0 and 65535 inclusive is legal.
There are 32-bit uid patches around.
Re:Oracle 8i on Linux - WTF ? (Score:1)
-doog
Re:I bet they make their own distribution (Score:1)
Re:Oracle 8i on Linux - WTF ? (Score:2)
Re:Ahem. (Score:1)
For all that, Linux would be the perfect platform for that project - create a minimal kernel that just supports I/O and networking, sit it on a boot partition and let Oracle do the rest itself.
Re:Woo hoo! (Score:1)
...Then perhaps I can begin a campaign for FreeBSD and BSDI ports or said DBMS'.
Re:FreeBSD (Score:1)
Then again, they also claimed Java support would be in 4.0. (A don't reply with 'Try Kaffe'; Kaffe is a nice excercise but doesn't hold up well for production purposes).
By That Logic... (Score:2)
I am just trying to point out that popularity some times flies in the face of logic. If we have to go with Linux, then, the LSB [linuxbase.org] will be more important than ever... And, along those lines, it would mean that the LSB would be more important than standards getting in the way of development of Linux itself, because without standards, someone like Red Hat could end up being the only Linux that VAR/ISV's want anything to do with.
Re:Oracle 8i on Linux - WTF ? (Score:1)
Still using PostgreSQL to run our web based, bug tracking system internally.
Jeff
Can business keep up? (Score:1)
Ok. Maybe we won't be *that* numb.
-Lisa
Question about reliance quote (Score:1)
Wasn't Oracle trying to distance themselves from all OS's with "RAW"-something or other?
I believe they are latching on to the hype over Linux more than lessening their reliance of Microsoft. They are fairly cross-platform already.
Really, how dependent is Oracle on Microsoft systems? When I think of Oracle I always think UNIX. It is probably just me.
Re:Woo hoo! (Score:1)
Oracle's optimizers don't. Just stack a couple of subqueries on top of a couple of joins and you can showplan to prove this.
ODBMS' are a much better way. Perhaps Oracle should spend time putting real Java native persistence into 8i before porting to yet another OS. Or perhaps we should get ObjectStore to port ODI onto Linux (hint).
--R
barely on-topic... (Score:2)
[PLEASE don't flame me for not knowing this.]
Re:Question about reliance quote (DUH!) (Score:1)
I still have to ask how using a Solaris kernel drops their dependency on Windows NT. Why not ask people to just run Solaris?
P.S. Obviously, I do not know much about Raw Iron.
"enterprise credibility" misleading (Score:1)
perhaps the term "enterprise credibility" was misleading. i didn't mean using it in an enterprise-critical application, but rather giving people who make purchasing and other decisions in large businesses a good impression of linux.
I bet they make their own distribution (Score:2)
Then, they'd start making all kinds of 'improvements' to non-kernel-related aspects of the Oracle Linux distribution.
Re:barely on-topic... (Score:1)
Missing enterprise level features. (Score:2)
Primarily the missing elements relate to high availability applications, with failover capability.
Things like a journalling file system, and HA clustering (no, Beowulf doesn't do high-availability) are desperately needed. I know there are some early projects in the works to address these issues, but they don't seem to be ready for prime-time just yet.
Now, if I could run Oracle 8i Enterprise for Linux with the parallel server and hot standby database options enabled, I would be happy. But, truthfully, when you get a web license for Oracle (licensed by CPU power, not per concurrent user), the costs of the Oracle licenses are so much higher than hardware/os licensing costs, that buying a couple of Ultras and SunCluster isn't that big of a deal anymore. What's $100,000 worth of hardware/os when the Oracle licenses cost $500,000.
And, if you don't need the high availability features of 8i Enterprise, then you probably don't need the Enterprise version at all. Then, Oracle 8 on Linux is well suited for your needs. At least that's what I've found to be true.
Linux is evolving rapidly, and I do prefer it for ordinary work, but it just isn't in the game yet when it comes to enterprise level, high availability implementations.
Antipathy? So? (Score:2)
--JT
Re:Larry Ellison is a buisnessman? (Score:2)
--Shoeboy
Re:I bet they make their own distribution (Score:1)
Means more/better jobs for Linux admins, more exposure, better software.
Re:Question about reliance quote... and Raw Iron (Score:2)
After installation, the advantage would be to allow Oracle database analysts to do the complete administration of a dedicated database box without support from a sysadmin. Of course, it could be tuned specifically for good database performance without considering other services -- other than SQL*Net type things that support database connectivity.
Here ya go... (Score:1)
I might also note that at the time I did the test DB2 on Linux was beta only AND more expensive than Oracle.
---
Put Hemos through English 101!
"An armed society is a polite society" -- Robert Heinlein
32-bit memory limit (Score:2)
Re:Wrong arguments? (Score:1)
I've now got two applicants in front of me... One has experience, and is even certified to develop, Oracle 8 databases. The other, says he's been developing in Postgres or MySQl. All other things being equal, I'll choose the Oracle admin any day.
Why?
Regardless as to how little you value certification, it means something. If nothing else, it means that the applicant is dedicated enough, or an ex-employer saw enough potential, to spring the money to get the certification (never mind the actual work involved).
Second. In my mind, an Oracle DBA will have a much better mindset as to what's required in an enterprize than one whose experience lies soley in MySQL on Linux (or any other 32 bit platform). Why? Oracle is a corporate application. These people are used to meetings and structure. From what I've read here, Linux-ites are opposed to it.
Oracle can SCALE. MySQL??? Even if it can address a 64 bit address space, can it really utilize it? How about optimizations? Oracle is supported on many platforms. By supported, I mean that I can call them in, shell out $$$, and they'll get the thing to work. MySQL? Oh. I get the source code. That's not the same as support in my book. If MySQL could scale, how come Slashdot only keeps my postings accessible for what 30 days?
I've never seen benchmarks with MySQL or Postgres vs. Oracle. If Oracle would allow, I'd love to see the comparison. I'm sure you'd cringe, though, and say, "well, wait for the 3.2 kernel to come out. That doesn't cut it in my book."
And yes, once you know the theory of RDBMs' you can probably get around in any of them. But do you trully know the specific one? NO. You may know a little about all of them, but there's nuances to be learned. That's why a Linux admin can't say they know Solaris (unless they do). Configurations are different - text files in different places, etc... You can get around in it, do the basic stuff, but to really shine, you'd need to buckle down and specialize.
That's all in my opinion!
No disgust intended (Score:2)
I was just putting a prediction out there in case, in the unlikely case that I am right, I can say "I knew it" to nobody in particular.
It just struck me as the type of thing Oracle would do. I am actually VERY happy every time some company moves away from windows toward Linux, not out of any particular wish to see Bill go down in flames, but because then the chances are just that much better that I will use Linux at work.
I hate using windows at work. grrrrrrrrrrr....
Re:Cool, they sent me my 8i (Linux) CD today! (Score:1)
Or freeload, as seems to be so common.
I wonder if these companies even read slashdot. If they did, they'ed realize that there's no money to be made from the Linux community (that's a very very generalized statement). They want Free PC's that don't display ads, free ISP's that don't track their comings and goings, free operating systems (ok, that one actually is a reality), and free versions of popular software from ported from other OS's. And when it does get ported, they can then study it, lobby (on Slashdot, mind you!) for lower prices, and when that fails, create an opensource clone of if. What innovation!
SO SORRY!!! I just happen to be in an especially poor mood tonight.
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http://www.msnbc.com/news/298088.asp [msnbc.com]FreeBSD (Score:2)
Now, on workstations, I am still using Linux, because of the better avaliability of software. But, for something like Oracle, I would prefer a direct port to FreeBSD if I were to ever use it. Because of the fact that Oracle has the potential to use a lot of memory, FreeBSD may have an edge in better memory management (always lower memory usage, IMHO it does a more efficent job freeing up used memory while caching the important stuff).
Definitions, two diffrent "ports" (not telnetable) (Score:2)
Re:So how do I port MFC database code? (Score:1)
Re:Larry Ellison is a sailor? (Score:1)
Several people died due to a large storm that ripped through the fleet. One of the crew on Sayonara (Ellison's boat) broke his leg (actually Oracle Australia's MD). Ellison said it was the worst he had ever sailed in, and at the time said he would never sail the race again.
Re: Ahem. (Score:1)
Note: Before everyone yells at me about all of the free software out there, let me just add that some stuff you currently just have to pay for. Especially in the gaming category, some of the non-free software is simply better. This isn't a dis to open source; open source is definitely the best method. But it's still maturing, and currently you still have to pay to get the best software.
This rocks! (Score:1)
The only downside is that installing the Oracle ODBC drivers on a client is a 3 day procedure requiring a 84 MB download....
---
Put Hemos through English 101!
"An armed society is a polite society" -- Robert Heinlein
Re:Lay off the white rock and smoke the green leaf (Score:1)
Wrong arguments? (Score:1)
Re:I bet they make their own distribution (Score:1)
[Speaking for myself only and not the company]
Re:This rocks! (Score:1)
Oracle distribution would be great (Score:1)
Of course, then we'll all have to start supporting the Oracle Package Manager
PostgreSQL (Score:1)
www.postgresql.org
Re:Oracle 8i on Linux - WTF ? (Score:2)
Sure it is... if you have the money and the time, there isn't anything you can't buy for yourself and consider a "toy."
You make it sound like he is messing around with an atomic bomb or a machine gun or something... and if he isn't careful he could kill someone. I don't think someone buying Oracle and installing it is nearly that dangerous. :-) Or, is it ;-)
Re:This rocks! (Score:1)
---
Put Hemos through English 101!
"An armed society is a polite society" -- Robert Heinlein
Re:I bet they make their own distribution (Score:1)
Re:Larry Ellison is a buisnessman? (Score:1)
Re:Erm, uid of 50,000 is OK. (Score:1)
:-)
Re:Wrong arguments? (Score:1)
Re:32-bit memory limit (Score:1)
Re:Wrong arguments? (Score:1)
Re:Wrong arguments? (Score:1)
Re:SLASHDOT SUCKS ASS (Score:1)
Re:Wrong arguments? (Score:1)
More realistically, they would lose clients to PostgreSQL. I know I've worked on a few projects now where Postgres was chosen over Oracle. The new version of Postgres is fast, dependable and has many of the features required for serious database work. And with 6.5 it's even quick.
It still lacks a few things and the PL/SQL language is a little quirky at times... there are a few minor bugs... but its very usable and very robust. And its opensource and free.
In fact, Sys Admin mag used Oracle and Postgres as the only two databases in its PERL database connectivity article last month.