A Year of Linux Desktop At Westcliff High School 283
jrepin writes "Around a year ago, a school in the southeast of England, Westcliff High School for Girls Academy (WHSG), began switching its student-facing computers to Linux, with KDE providing the desktop software. The school's Network Manager, Malcolm Moore, contacted us at the time. Now, a year on, he got in touch again to let us know how he and the students find life in a world without Windows."
And they didn't even meet much resistance: "Younger students accept it as normal. Older students can be a little less flexible. There are still a few that are of the view that I can get rid of Microsoft Word when I can pry it from them. Staff are the same (although it is surprisingly not age-related). Some are OK and some hate it. Having said that, an equal number hate Windows 7 and nobody liked Windows 8. I think the basic problem is that Windows XP is a victim of its own success. It works fairly well from a user point of view, it's been around practically forever, and people don't like change, even some students, oddly."
Why not more than a clone of Windows and Office? (Score:4, Interesting)
I'd really like to see a desktop suite of alternatives which do away w/ the shackles of backwards compatibility and instead try to do things right:
- LyX for documents
- Flexisheet for spreadsheets
Wish there was something other than Asymptote or METAPOST to suggest for vector graphics (I'd like to see a successor to Altsys Virtuoso and Aldus IntelliDraw and FutureWave SmartSketch).
Other alternatives which aren't ``just'' clones?
Re:Why not more than a clone of Windows and Office (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Why not more than a clone of Windows and Office (Score:2)
All one needs is a reasonable set of import / export tools.
Re:Why not more than a clone of Windows and Office (Score:3)
All one needs is a reasonable set of import / export tools.
Can't be done.
Two years ago I had to convert some important WordPerfect documents to Word, and then to Excel. They had a lot of tables, outlines and columns. It didn't come out right, and I had to manually correct every page. The margins, columns and tabs were changed. One page in WordPerfect ran over one page in Word. Text didn't fit into tables. Some of the fonts were missing. There were workarounds that didn't work any more.
In searching the subject on the web, I found a message from someone who claimed to have worked for Microsoft during the original rollout of Word, on the compatibility with WordPerfect. He said that it was very important to MS to have compatibility with WordPerfect, since that was the installed base. Potential customers had their own historical documents in WordPerfect, and they had to exchange documents with clients who still used WordPerfect. MS put a lot of work into it, but they couldn't get them to convert exactly. The two programs approached document formatting in different ways.
Consider a typical Microsoft potential customer. A law firm may have 100 lawyers, each of whom writes 10 documents a day. The lawyer's life is tied up in his documents. The documents are the firm memory. When a new case comes up, it's important for them to be able to search their documents to find out whether and how they've dealt with this matter before. They want to go back for decades. Lawyers have lots of stories about how an old partner says, "I remember we did something like this back in 1960," and they find an old memo that wins a million-dollar case. Usually it's important to get the documents back in exactly the same format, because, for example, the page citations have to line up.
Another problem was that they had staff, like secretaries and paralegals, who were expert in the sometimes-esoteric language and style of law, with its footnotes and citations, who already knew WordPerfect. These are not stupid people, and some of them were experts in the details of WordPerfect, but most of them were not. They could learn a new word processing program, but it would take time, and even more important, during the learning process they could make mistakes. Microsoft had an elaborate learning mode in the earlier versions of Word for people who were switching from WordPerfect in which it would automatically give you your "error" when you tried to use a WordPerfect command. Some of the WordPerfect commands had no equivalent in Word. You had to use an elaborate workaround. And it wasn't just converting documents. You could easily search all the files in a WordPerfect directory for a text string. You couldn't do that any more in Word.
For a law firm like that, it's an enormous job to switch from one word processing program to another. They did it, mostly during the transition from DOS to Windows, but they wouldn't do it again without a good reason.
Re:Why not more than a clone of Windows and Office (Score:3)
Just FYI, LyX sucks at WYSIWYG document creation and editing. TeX is hard and LyX makes it easier, but it's still nowhere near ready for the masses.
See, Microsoft had this brilliant idea to change their default document view from "Normal" to "Print Layout" that shows how the document would (should) look like when printed out. It's a small change; both views were present already. I don't even know if Microsoft came up with the idea first. But the difference is significant. One view makes Word true WYSIWYG while the other meant was just a glorified text editor. In case you haven't noticed, the Normal view is no more.
LyX is still lacking, in that, and many other ways.
Re:Why not more than a clone of Windows and Office (Score:2)
Microsoft didn't come up with the idea of a WYSIWYG text editor. I don't know who was first, but I know Apple's MacWrite in 1984 only had one view of the document, and it was like what Word calls "Print Layout".
Re:Why not more than a clone of Windows and Office (Score:2)
Re:Why not more than a clone of Windows and Office (Score:2)
How many actually need or want WYSIWYG then? Wouldn't most people who use Office be better of with WYGIMBTWYCD (What You Get Is Much Better Than What You Could Design)?
Just FYI, LyX is about WYSIWYMean, not WYSISWYG (Score:3)
LyX is a project that I'm very fond of. It doesn't follow the WYSIWYG model at all. Instead, it leverages TeX's different way of thinking about document creation entirely; separate the data from the presentation and manage the creation of both separately. The whole idea is to concentrate on the task of writing without getting distracted by constant re-formatting challenges. It works quite well once you learn to relax and not obsess over every paragraph and image placement while you're writing.
Frankly, I think LyX creates some of the most beautiful printed documentation I've ever seen. Sadly, it doesn't do so well at e-publishing yet. I have hopes that will change, though. I would love to use it to handle all of my document creation needs.
As it is, I end up writing in LyX, exporting to .xhtml, then using Sigil and other tools to get a clean, good looking .epub output.
Re:Why not more than a clone of Windows and Office (Score:2)
Please explain the features of Flexisheet that would put it in anyone shopping list. I could only find a domain for sale, a Sourceforge project with no released files and a CVS repository and also it seems only runs in Mac OSX.
About LyX, I guess most people wouldn't want it a little rough, wouldn't them? From the site:
It does look a bit rough, but don't worry, because the output will be fine
I think most people would want to edit text, not mathematical formulas for LaTeX and science papers which seems to be the main focus of this editor. It may be very good for that for all I know.
Exactly! (Score:5, Interesting)
> [Windows XP] works fairly well from a user point of view, it's
> been around practically forever, and people don't like change.
Yes, yes, and yes. Too bad MS didn't realize that -- they could have just spent the last few years refining XP and keeping people happy.
Apple actually has a pretty good thing going on with OS X -- like them or not, "small changes every year or two" beats "monumental fuckups twice a decade."
Re:Exactly! (Score:2)
Redeveloping things was necessary with Vista/7 to handle newer hardware and concepts, but the problem was they threw out half the baby with the bathwater when they significantly changed the main interfaces. There was no reason to mess with that when people were happy with it. I'm not even sure what they thought they were trying to beat by doing so.
Re:Exactly! (Score:2)
I don't know if they know how to "refine" things. Their CEO is a salesperson. Salespeople can't understand how making programs start up 10% faster and use 50% less overhead, would be a good selling point. On the other hand, a brand-spankin' new, snazzy interface is a great selling point.
And part of the "brand-spankin' new" selling points is actually changing the version number. Look at what Firefox started doing when Chrome became popular.
Re:Exactly! (Score:2)
I have noticed though Windows 8 is going through an annual update and my hunch is they are trying to avoid another XP again...
Well, insofar as they're trying to avoid another XP, as a OS that people are attached to and are uncomfortable moving away from, they're doing an awfully good job. I don't foresee people becoming attached to Windows 8 no matter how long they use it.
Re:Exactly! (Score:2)
Actually, no, they're doing an awful job. Win 7 is becoming the new XP.
Re:Exactly! (Score:2)
I watch people double click the large icons in the taskbar/dock/quick launch all the time. They are used to double clicking on icoons that size.
I watch them confused and squinting at thumbnails to switch windows when they are used to words.
I REALLY like the new taskbar. I love dragging across the screen and seeing full size windows on a totally uncluttered screen, clicking when I want one, and everything else re-appears behind it. But it's very confusing to many people. The edge snap sizing confuses people too, they don't see why they would want it, and it interferes with getting things out of the way.
If windows 7 had an always on top button, and space between close and the other buttons, it would be the closest to perfect UI I've dealt with.
I'm waiting for someone to ape the taskbar in KDE (there are some options that get close, but they are astheticaly similar, they don't function efficiently).
Windows 8 fucked up the start button buy trying to ape Ubuntu and Gnome 3 from what I can tell (I've only used it a few times, but when I use it I feel like I need to travel left and right and am confused, I liked a little box to type three letters and go).
Windows is cheaper than Linux (Score:5, Informative)
One of the reasons we see so much Windows in education is that its cheaper than Linux. Microsoft gives out free software and hardware deals to schools as "donations". At my University, our CSE department had clearly been supplied with a lot of Windows stuff (I got 3 free Windows licences, and lots of other stuff as a student, I suspect the Labs got similar offers). The ratio of Windows to Linux machines was higher than most of the students wanted (It was often hard to find open Linux machines).
My High-school got all its computers replaced through some deal with Microsoft while I was there, and they were all Windows.
Microsoft makes large investments in getting its products into education so people get used to them. The people who resist change will then be stuck with them and but it in the future.
I assume this kind of thing is not the case everywhere, but their efforts seems to be keeping Windows as the standard OS in education. I'm really happy to see people working (and succeeding) at escaping this.
Re:Windows is cheaper than Linux (Score:2)
My High-school got all its computers replaced through some deal with Microsoft while I was there, and they were all Windows.
Microsoft makes large investments in getting its products into education so people get used to them. The people who resist change will then be stuck with them and but it in the future.
But, but, philanthropy. Gates foundation. Common good.
Bullshit. This is what happens when criminals like Gates are allowed to run free.
Re:Windows is cheaper than Linux (Score:2)
If there were a SIMS (Schools Information Management System) client for Linux...
Interactive whiteboards that only have features written for MS Office, teacher resources that are windows only, and things like mental health/nursing applications that are mandated and windows only. There are replacements for some of this stuff but sometimes not.
Parents Protesting Over Lack Of MS Office (Score:5, Interesting)
The author mentioned that some parents protested because they felt learning Microsoft Office is crucial to their children's success. However we now live in an era where Microsoft is beginning to lose that stronghold. With Open/Libre Office always improving and solutions such as Google Apps gaining traction, I fail to see how this is really a factor anymore. By 2024 MS may not even be the major player anymore in the office space. This is like the prior generation telling us we must be proficient at using a typewriter or hand writing in cursive to land a job.
Re:Parents Protesting Over Lack Of MS Office (Score:2)
I would've agreed with those parents 10 years ago as well, but the fact is most users (even adults) aren't pushing Office suite products enough for the specific software to matter. Most provide the same cursory experience which is definitely good enough for high school students. I gave my GF my old laptop to replace her ancient one and tossed OpenOffice on it. I don't even think she realizes it's a different app!
Re:Parents Protesting Over Lack Of MS Office (Score:2)
office compatibility is the big part of useing it (Score:2)
Open office has some compatibility with office files but in the most part people need to use office as that is what is being used in most work places.
3-4 year old systems can run windows as well (Score:2)
3-4 year old systems can run windows as well as for cost cutting holding on to systems for 5-6+ years just seems like pushing it out also the old P4 systems can be big power hogs as well.
Linux needs some help from Microsoft... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Linux needs some help from Microsoft... (Score:4, Insightful)
s/Linux/Os X/
Re:Linux needs some help from Microsoft... (Score:2)
Bring back XP (Score:4, Interesting)
It's OK to upgrade it with drivers for newer hardware, and plug up more security holes. But give us the same user interface (as a choice).
Really. We CAN go back and run most older window systems/managers on a new Linux kernel and maybe new X server. We can get the old user interface. We can even get something that emulates Windows 95 (seen it). Why can't the core Microsoft Windows system do that? Just provide an app that chooses which user interface to use.
Re:Bring back XP (Score:3)
It's OK to upgrade it with drivers for newer hardware, and plug up more security holes. But give us the same user interface (as a choice).
Is Windows 7 really different enough from XP that most people will notice? I don't use either much, but they seem almost the same to me.
Longer Term Study (Score:3)
A study one year on is useful, but what would be even more interesting would be a longer term study focusing on the experiences of students as they grow up and leave school.
It would be interesting to see whether using Linux and a non-MS office suite affected them academically, and as they start to look for work - particularly with many jobs coming with a requirement to be proficient in Microsoft Office (try getting Libre Office past those HR drones). Perhaps a higher proportion of students than is normal at a girls' school will end up working in the tech industry, having had more experience at school using a Linux system.
Re:Longer Term Study (Score:2)
(try getting Libre Office past those HR drones)
Those drones are making it more difficult now than ever to cross over.
Re:Longer Term Study (Score:3)
Albany Senior High School in Auckland, have used Linux extensively for about 4 years. A friend of mine does advanced Linux support for their servers. http://wikieducator.org/Free_Software_at_Albany_Senior_High_School [wikieducator.org]
Many schools around the world already use Linux, and more are starting too.
Microsoft is on the way out...
Mom-Approved (Score:2)
New Tricks (Score:2)
The ability to learn new tricks is not really age related.
Old dogs that can't learn new tricks couldn't learn them when young either.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201001/old-dogs-and-people-and-monkeys-can-learn-new-tricks [psychologytoday.com]
Depressingly shallow popularity contests (Score:2)
It seems all TFA does is measure resistance to change and who all likes coke vs pepsi.
Back in the day I liked DOS word perfect... reveal codes and all just fine. What does that prove?
It would have been refreshing had there been any discussion of metrics or outcomes for users.. After all computers are just tools... Its not what you "like" its what the tool assists you to achieve.
MS Office (Score:3)
"There are still a few that are of the view that I can get rid of Microsoft Word when I can pry it from them."
I've been using linux on my primary computer for 5 years now and I'm still the same way - LibreOffice, OpenOffice and StarOffice can't hold a candle to MS Word, especially when you need to share your documents with collaborators. Same goes for the open "equivalents" of Powerpoint - if you make (or even modify) a slideshow in Libre, Open or Star, you have about zero percent chance of your presentation looking the same on any other computer.
I think a lot of people, including myself, will resist giving up MS Office until either a)EVERYONE uses the open equivalents or b)the open equivalents flawlessly port files to and from MS Office without formatting or display issues. I also think neither of these is likely to happen any time soon.
Why so odd that people "don't like change"? (Score:2)
But how many people would like to sit behind the wheel to drive to work, and suddenly find their entire dashboard reorganized and the wheel moved to a different angle six inches to the left?
As only one example, it always amazes me when supposed computer professionals are surprised when users were just fine with things exactly how they were. I still don't like the stupid ribbon interface of MS Word, and I have yet to find a single office person who actually prefers it.
WHY CHANGE? (Score:2)
I understand Microsoft's motivation to change things, because they're selling stuff, and by nature they're almost required to change things in order to make a profit. If they don't update the interface, people become too productive, and never buy another copy--they just use the one they have. With upgrades and security patches being free and automatic, Microsoft really HAS to change change things in order to continue to make a profit.
But why does Linux do it? Why not create an XP equivalent of an OS/GUI and then just administer patches for the rest of all eternity? I have yet to see a defacto GUI/Desktop that isn't going through some massive remod, which renders all the development you do on the older technology null and void.
It's too bad, too, because i think that constant flux causes some devs to avoid it. Or do something more desperate, like code in Java. :)
Re:High School for Girls Academy (Score:4, Insightful)
Nobody said this was a focus group.
Re:High School for Girls Academy (Score:2)
Nobody said this was a focus group.
Exactly. Purely anecdotal which, when corroborated with other anecdotal evidence, still says Windows 8 sucks, Windows 7 is "meh" and XP is what everyone is still wanting to run.
You can pay for as many "Independent 3rd party studies" as you want. I'll take random anecdotal samples over that anyday.
Re:High School for Girls Academy (Score:3)
Windows or Linux fanboi, both agree Win8 set us up the bomb.
Re:High School for Girls Academy (Score:2)
Something we can all agree on, at least!
Re:High School for Girls Academy (Score:2, Informative)
I haven't heard the typical result for Windows 7 being "meh"
In terms of ordinary end users, Windows 7 has surpassed Windows XP for quite a while now. The business world is another story.
Re:High School for Girls Academy (Score:2)
Yeah, that part of the summary didn't gel right with me. Everyone hates Windows 7? My experience has been the opposite - everyone I know who's switched to Windows 7 loves it, and are physically ill when they see an XP desktop (ok, not literally). Conclusions like this sound a lot like confirmation bias.
Are high school girls not normal users? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Are high school girls not normal users? (Score:3, Informative)
I actually went to this school when I was younger (so I was pretty surprised to see it appear on Slashdot!), and was very interested in this article because when I was there, we were given a very good IT education - in MS Word, Excel, Access, Powerpoint and Frontpage (plus, er, PageMaker).
Anyway, I think there are a few reasons why this userbase might adapt to Linux better than a random selection of people:
1. Their age - while a lot of older people are extremely reluctant to just try something on a computer, for fear of breaking it, people who've grown up with computers as the norm aren't so worried about that. So I think they're less likely to be intimidated by a new interface, and more likely to engage with customising it.
1a. You would also probably get less resistance from them than from a worker who's been using MS Office every single day for the past 20 years and is extremely familiar with it and therefore works very, very quickly. Swapping their software over will result in an immediate productivity drop and could cost a company money. Swapping a 12-year-old's software over is a minor annoyance.
2. It's a science and engineering school, so a number of the girls who have chosen to go there will have a bigger interest in technology than the average population of the area. (There are other schools of a similar academic standard locally with different specialisms and this does guide some students' school preferences.)
3. The school is academically selective, so you have a better chance of being able to teach the students how to adapt to different systems (swapping between Linux and Windows when a workplace requires it, for example). In an average population you will confuse a lot of people just because the blue "e" they click to go on the Internet has disappeared.
Re:Are high school girls not normal users? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Are high school girls not normal users? (Score:5, Insightful)
My take from this story is that a group of people with no general predisposition toward using an OS that is commonly seen as difficult to learn and just for geek hobbyists picked up on it without trouble.
Re:Are high school girls not normal users? (Score:2)
There are still plenty other reasons why we won't or can't deploy Linux in our office, but the fact that a girl's high school did is not one of them.
Re:Are high school girls not normal users? (Score:2)
But remember, there's no sexism in the slashdot crowd.
Re:Are high school girls not normal users? (Score:5, Insightful)
It drives home the point that the only reason people don't switch to linux is inertia. It's not that people reject linux, even very stubborn, crazy groups of people.
(Disclaimer: I may still be a little bitter at high school girls from when they wouldn't talk to me when I was in high school.)
Re:Are high school girls not normal users? (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a valid point that your sarcasm hides: high school girls are often stubborn, irrational, and value popularity of a product more than the product itself.
Sounds like Slashdot.
Re:Are high school girls not normal users? (Score:5, Funny)
They still don't talk to me. 40 years has merely changed it from "nerdy" to "creepy". You just can't win.
Re:Are high school girls not normal users? (Score:3)
I think it's important to note that they used KDE for their transition. Of the desktops that are currently available and reasonably popular, KDE has the most "traditional" interface. People who've never used Linux before have sat down at my box with it's familiar set of desktop icons, double clicked on the applications they wanted (usually Firefox), and had no problem with resizing windows, maximizing them, minimizing them, or otherwise using my box.
This should be a resounding slap in the face for groups behind abortions like Unity and Gnome 3. Change for the sake of change is not progress. Give people something they're familiar with, and they'll use it. Stray from that path of familiarity and they'll revolt -- loudly.
Re:Are high school girls not normal users? (Score:2)
Switch to Apple and lose weight. (Score:3)
Switch to Apple and lose weight. Not because it makes you a "hipster", you just can't afford any food after buying the whole Apple line.
Re:High School for Girls Academy (Score:2)
So - they moved Westcliff to the USA while no one was watching? A lot of people in England are going to miss it! Or, maybe you read a different summary than I did, and your post was mysteriously moved to THIS discussion.
Re:High School for Girls Academy (Score:3)
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:5, Interesting)
Imagine if all changes were on the back end (security, improved networking, etc) and only a handful of changes were made with the front end. Windows would have millions of content and loyal users. And nobody would ever want to change.
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:3, Interesting)
To be fair, the difference between XP and Vista/7 wasn't that drastic. Sure the colors changed but if anything, it was still XP underneath with an updated look (and some cool new tools). Windows 8 is where they went off on a tangent and put a little too much tablet UI in a desktop OS.
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:3)
to be fair, we'd also have to consider DOS -> Windows 3.11 -> windows 95/98 -> (junk no one bought) -> Windows 2000 -> XP which were pretty drastic
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:3)
no, things such as "control panel" also changed
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:3)
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:2)
WTF paid you to say that? And, WTF is a "Windows based metric"? If 8 has a lot going for it, then we're all hoping that it keeps on going, for a very long walk off of a short pier. Windows users seem to agree that IF you ARE a Windows user, it's best to stay with Win7, and hope to hell that Win9 is a usable system.
Frigging shills . . .
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:2)
Measuring lengths as a number of dead ducks would be a good example!
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:2)
Marketing would never let that happen.
Re: I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:2)
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:2)
Windows would have millions of content and loyal users. And nobody would ever want to change. Microsofts corporate strategy is dependent on people buying new versions of their software. If something doesn't 'look' like it changed, then nothing 'was' changed to most people. If you are still on xp at this point, microsoft doesn't really care a whole lot about you, unless it can get you to buy a newer version of its os.
Microsoft's Windows strategy is not just selling their OS on new computers from OEMs, but to convince all users that they are really missing out on something great if they don't ditch the old version and upgrade to the new version.
The core problem is the way Microsoft does things within the OS, the constrain the user on how and where they store things. Savvy users can figure ways to put stuff where they like, but are often still stuck when it comes to inflexible software installs.
From the get-go I was a massive fan of *nix systems because I did my own configuration and installs and put stuff on logical drives where I wanted things. The OS was left on its own logical drive (usually a separate physical drive) in the event it died or was upgraded/rebuilt. Changes on the OS drive had minimal impact on software installed or where it was installed. Try that with Windows, from version to version.
Microsoft's "all the eggs in one basket" strategy may be fine if you don't buy a lot of software or run for 10 years on the same boot drive. But when you've got a considerable investment in software and the way you have things organized, the last thing you want is a load of change forced upon you. You can only upgrade so much with Windows (which often results in some sort of Frankenstein system, not quite as nice as a clean install.)
If the old mainframe manufactures, programmers and support had a wealth of experience in system configuration, security and deployment, Microsoft completely ignored as much as possible and their users all suffer in the end. Microsoft really have got very successful and rich off a succession of terrible strategies. They've counted so much on the "Microsoft Tax" as a revenue stream they had little incentive to make migration and consistency of the user experience a focal point. Now with Windows 8 it's the most obvious it has ever been. Steve Ballmer has been piloting his Titanic into the iceberg for so long he can't see the open seas around him and just keeps focusing on heading for that showdown in the North Atlantic.
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:2)
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:3)
Really? I plugged a headphone into the headphone jack yesterday and some dialog box popped up asking me if I wanted to use headphones. That never happened before Windows 7.
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:2)
it has no Windows rot
Eh?
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:2)
Win7 really ain't bad - after you turn the Aero crap OFF!
Re:I understand, it is Very hard to leave Windows (Score:2)
Aero actually offloads a lot of desktop operations onto the GPU freeing up your processor to do other things. Why would you want to turn off something that not only looks pretty but also makes your computer faster?
Re:Think of the children (Score:5, Insightful)
They said the same about DOS and Wordperfect when i was in highschool, where are they now?
School should teach users generally applicable concepts, ie that there are multiple applications to accomplish a given task. If you only teach specific software then users will be stuck if they encounter different software, and by the time they leave school the software will be different. Even newer versions of the same applications are often wildly different. If taught properly, people will be able to grasp any new application that's designed for performing the same general functions.
Re:Think of the children (Score:2)
DOS was still around up until Vista. It also is a decent albeit crude intro to Posix CLIs. And Word actually copied a lot of Wordperfect's interface and functionality. Where it didn't, there are options.
Re:Think of the children (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly! Because we all know that school is first and foremost a job training program designed to replicate drone workers efficiently. You wouldn't want to expose those impressionable youngsters to alternative tech, or heaven forbid, non-PC thought.
Re:Think of the children (Score:5, Informative)
I used a typewriter in high school.
on the side, a teacher and some of us students formed a computer club and bought a TRS-80 so we could do Z80 assembly.
Since then I've used various document creating softwares on CDC Cyber, Vax, Unix, OS/2, Novell, Windows, Linux,
so the answer to your question is "hell no, what's the point"
Re:Think of the children (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Think of the children (Score:3, Interesting)
My last workplace used Linux almost exclusively. Its not a Windows World out there.
Personally, I think learning only one OS cripples someone's understanding of is a design decision in an OS, what is a fact about current computers, and what is basic reality. Its much like learning only one programming language, or only one spoken language: you can't understand something very well from passive use of a single just one type. This is why you pretty much have to take some foreign language to get into college, and the same thing applies to OSs.
There is a reason I've played with Windows, Mac (os 1-9 and X), Linux (Ubuntu, Fedora, Sugar...), BSD, Plan9 etc. and read up on others like DOS, Genode, Unix, Multix etc. I don't expect everyone to go that far, but using at least a few will greatly help you understand what an OS is, and what they can do.
I've see single OS users (my mom with Mac for example) attempt to explain how to do something on a different OS (say windows) to someone by referring to specific specific abstraction's details (where menus are for example) which are missing or very different on the OS they are talking about. Not understanding the difference between "launching a web browser", and "clicking on safari in the right end of the dock" is horrible! People won't make it past this naive understanding unless you either make them use a couple OSs, or give them a serious lesson in OS design (I recommend the first approach).
Re:Think of the children (Score:2)
School does not exist as a vocational training facility for industry. It should train people to be productive citizens. Over the long term that means fundamental skills. By "fundamental" I don't mean "introductory", I mean skills upon which *other* skills can be built: to analyze, to imagine, to communicate and *to learn*.
In terms of computer skills, students should be used to adjusting to doing things different ways, because changes in the software on the market will force them to do that. They should be able to create a problem-solving strategy and execute it with the tools at hand, rather than let the tools at hand dictate their capabilities.
After all, which Windows should they train to use? Windows XP? Windows 8? By the time they hit the market Windows 10 might be the current MS standard, and people may well be using operating systems targeted to non-desktop form factors as much or more than Windows.
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
I use Gimp daily to nondestructively alter blueprints. Photoshop would be a complete waste of money for my shop.
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
That doesn't really make his point any less valid, mind you. I'm sure there are people out there who use MS Paint and have no issues with its featureset.
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
I'm sure there are people out there who use MS Paint and have no issues with its featureset.
http://vimeo.com/70748579# [slashdot.org]>there are indeed....
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
That doesn't really make his point any less valid, mind you.
Considering that his "point" was to marginalize OSS alternatives to expensive, proprietary software by stating that the OSS stuff is "fine for kids typing a paper in middle school or highschool," and "For grown ups I would be furious if I had to use LibreOff[i]ce," implying that they are useless for "serious" work, I disagree.
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
LibraOffice has years to play catchup
Correction: OpenOffice has years to catch up. While LibreOffice of course gets parts of OpenOffice back ported, the code gutting and re-writes that made LibreOffice put it far ahead of OpenOffice. LibreOffice is great when it comes to outputting .doc, although I don't do much with spreadsheets so I can't comment there. Every once in awhile I install OpenOffice just to see how it's going but I always end up removing it after a few bug filled hours. I really don't know why anyone would use OpenOffice over LibreOffice.
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
The company I work at switched to open office when Sun was still around. It took some months for the users to become familiar enough with open office to be as efficient as they were in MS office and I had to answer an awful lot of questions many I had to look up. Today we run on Libre Office and have many users that are extremely efficient with it. Some still miss MS office not many.
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
Outside of slashdot it most certainly is not equal unless you are doing simple things. I tried to print something on another computer with it and all the margins were messed up. I could not change title's and preview changes before selecting them. Everything was hidden in a menu and after 4 minutes I wanted to pull my hair out before just downloading Word viewer instead.
You realize that not even Microsoft supports the Word format they published? Right? So, yeah, you're going to have a shitty time if you use non standard file formats that only one program actually supports. Use the native open document format and suddenly the proprietary problems go away... The other nonsense about usability is simply because that's the way you learned to use another program. It's like arguing over whether tabs should go above or below the address bar in a browser -- I prefer the side, listed vertically. Fortunately ther open document format is fully open source and there are plugins for words.
Now, you can agure that "grown ups" will use Microsoft Word because that's what all their friends are using, duh! I would say, that's childish. I use HTML because that's what everyone actually has a viewer for on every device and it's got a much more rich document re-skinner CSS and scripting language that's not nearly as horrible as VB... Grown ups don't bitch about file formats when there is already a universal file format available, noob.
Re:People hate change (Score:3, Interesting)
Figure out this: Loading very large documents, which are fairly common in professional settings, is instanteous with Word because it loads them asynchronously and doesn't parse the entire document when it is loaded, LibreOffice and its predecessor on the other hand try to parse the entire document, which can take upward to seveal minutes. It is them that need to change some of the architecture of their program, not the users who "must adapt to change".
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
Are there any freely available documents large enough that you can link to that demonstrate this problem?
Not saying it doesn't exist, just have not encountered it and like to test things, tend to use LaTeX myself only using LibreOffice for opening other peoples stuff.
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
Re:People hate change (Score:3)
FWIW, I've noticed that it's very slow to load in general.
Re:People hate change (Score:5, Interesting)
If you can't figure out LIbre Office you shouldn't have your job.
LibreOffice just isn't very good. I've used StarOffice, then OpenOffice, then LibreOffice. I haven't used Microsoft Word since Word 97. And I still think LibreOffice sucks. It's usable, but amateurish.
Open source just can't get user interfaces right. LibreOffice has subtle problems, such as spelling correction that insists on making a change even after you've undone the change. Microsoft Word will yield to the user in that situation. The command-line crowd will never get fine details like that. I have Windows 7 and Ubuntu machines side by side on my desk, but the Ubuntu machine is used only for robotics software development.
I've watched Linux blow it on the desktop for fifteen years. There was an opportunity when XP was late. Linux blew it. There was an opportunity when everybody hated Vista. Linux blew it. There's an opportunity now when nobody wants to go to Windows 8. Linux is blowing it.
For a good laugh, look at what it takes to create a shortcut to a program in Ubuntu. [askubuntu.com]
Re:People hate change (Score:2, Interesting)
It's ok. Linux is winning the long game because the importance of the desktop and desktop applications is diminishing.
All of the most popular things to do with computers. (Twitface, mytubes, yougram, whatever) are all just as easy to use on linux as they are windows. Or macintosh. Or a tablet. Or a smartphone.
Microsoft may have a lock on the desktop, but the desktop is no longer the king in the consumer's mind.
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
All very good points. Imo, the best office suite I've ever used, even including Microsoft Office, was KOffice back in the 3.5 days. Figured it might be relevant to say that since they're using KDE. I loved how the styles were more well-defined in particular.
That being said, I've never done much "advanced" stuff in any WYSIWYG word processor. Well, the closest I've come is Word 2010's SmartArt feature, and I'd bet that neither LibreOffice or KOffice have something like that, but I haven't given KOffice a spin since 4.0 lost me as a KDE user. It makes it a breeze to do things like simple hierarchy charts and snazzed-up lists. I have no talent for graphic design, so that feature has made my (simpler) documents a whole lot more visually appealing.
However, I've found that if I need to do anything moderately complex, I turn to LaTeX even at work. Microsoft Word can be downright frustrating at times. Even though I spend time Googleing how to do things and staring at the LaTeX Wikibook [wikibooks.org], it seems I always spend less time doing that than fighting with Word.
In a longer document I honestly don't want to think about font sizes or which typeface I'm using or whether I've got a style that's being overridden by something else I don't want. I just want to type in what I have to write and let the formatting figure itself out. LaTeX, while not perfect, is the best solution I've seen yet.
I suppose it's just a shame that with the advent of the WYSIWYG word processor, people are more concerned with indenting things with spaces rather than using tabstops and obsessing over whether Comic Sans MS or Tahoma is more appropriate for this paragraph and how neat it looks if the next paragraph is in a completely different font or color! It would be nice if the focus were more on the structure of the document. I feel LaTeX does that for me, but I suppose the overarching problem is that people in general are not structural thinkers. They understand indenting the first line of a paragraph by hitting the space bar a few times; they don't understand telling the computer that it's a paragraph in an article or in a letter and letting the computer worry about the details.
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
My son (15) had a Microsoft laptop & and an Apple desktop last year, now he generally prefers his Linux laptop that he chose.
I have an 11 year old student who I coach in Java, and he is rapt in his new Linux desktop, he previously used Apple & Microsoft laptops.
Me, I use Linux, and love having 16 or more virtual desktops, terminals & directory windows with multiple tabs, highly customisable panels, and lots of other useful goodies not found in any Microsoft O/S. I use the Mate Desktop Environment, I hate the GNOME 3 & Unity Desktop Environments. One of the beauties of Linux is that one has a wide range of Desktop Environments to choose from, most are far more customisable than anything Microsoft has to offer.
Over 90% of super computers use Linux, most of the rest run Unix. Mobile devices are dominated by Linux (Android is a Linux O/S).
On the desktop, as in servers & mobile devices, Linux is very much superior to Microsoft!
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
For a while, you could open PowerPoint, save the default, blank presentation, open it in Impress, and it wouldn't be rendered correctly.
(I don't know when that was fixed, but a PPTX "import filter" was added in OpenOffice 3.0 and it lasted through at least 3.2. Sometime between OO 3.2 [Feb 2010] and LibreOffice 4.0 [Feb 2013] was a dramatic improvement in accuracy, and at least that and another basic slide that I used to test work now. 4.0 is still missing antialiasing and dealing with some of the more "advanced" stuff, like shapes, but at least it seems to be able to render text on a colored slide reasonably accurately now. :-))
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
If they don't need to alter the documents you send them, why aren't you sending it as pdf?
Also if you want to make something look really nice, Word is probably a bad choice. LaTeX is lovely in that regard. Higher learning curve sure but once you've used it a bit you'll never go back to crappy old things like word.
Re:People hate change (Score:2)
Libre Office does not have the features I mentioned. I wanted to make something look nice on my resume. The tools to do so were not there are very primitive compared to MS Word. Just a fact. With the ribbon you can preview changes and have 20+ titles with different effects, styles, fonts, and lines for my name.
Libre Office is about where Word 4.2 and Word 5.0 are for Windows 3.1.
Sure I can do basic documents with it but everyone else in the business word is making artful documents and changes and I can't have my documents look like crap on their computers because of different implementations of ooxml.
Really? Our clients don't want artful, fancy documents. They have very strict style guidelines that must be met. And OOXML causes me more headaches then you can imagine (I sent my client this file, and they couldn't open it. Or vice versa, because our clients aren't all on the same version of office (even within the same client). If you need something to look the same, you need to use Desktop publishing software, or send a PDF.