GarageGames Starts IndieGoGo Campaign To Port Torque 3D To Linux 71
Posted
by
timothy
from the if-you-want-it dept.
from the if-you-want-it dept.
Open source (as Torque 3D recently became) is one thing; cross-platform is another. Now, reader iamnothing writes "GarageGames is heading to IndieGoGo to port Torque 3D to Linux. The campaign is centered around hiring a dedicated developer or team to port Torque 3D to Linux. The primary target is Ubuntu 32bit with other flavors of Linux as stretch goals. All work will be done in the public eye under our Github repository under the MIT license."
Blah blah blah (Score:-1)
More Windows wanna-be nonsense. LOLZZ!!!!1111!!!
You Linux people are a real hoot.
Windoze is doomed (Score:-1)
Throw Windoze on the garbage heap. Year of the mother fucking Linux Desktop!! Suck it down, proprieturd bitches!
interesting (Score:4, Informative)
Not a lot of offerings in Linux game engines so far, so this would be a nice addition. Afaik, the only real options are various derivative of older open-sourced Id Software engines, and Ogre3d [ogre3d.org]. Plus Unity recently added the ability to export builds to Linux, but not to develop on Linux.
Re:interesting (Score:1)
Yeah, Unity and Shiva both have export options, which is an awesome thing for gamers. But for developers, you still have to use Windows or a Mac with those engines. I love that they've added the export option, though. That means more games on Linux, which is always a good thing!
Re:interesting (Score:3)
Re:interesting (Score:1)
Big "Pro" graphical design apps like Adobe CS or Maya have no signs of getting linux ports
That's surprising, given that Maya's system requirements page [autodesk.com] lists Red Hat and Fedora as supported operating systems.
Re:interesting (Score:0)
Don't forget about Crystal Space 3D [crystalspace3d.org].
Re:interesting (Score:1)
Wow. It's probably been about 10 years since I used CS. It was really rough around the edges at that time, mostly just a rendering engine. I'll have to take a look at it again. I'm sure it's improved by leaps and bounds over the years.
Re:interesting (Score:2)
Not a lot of offerings in Linux game engines so far, so this would be a nice addition. Afaik, the only real options are various derivative of older open-sourced Id Software engines, and Ogre3d [ogre3d.org]. Plus Unity recently added the ability to export builds to Linux, but not to develop on Linux.
I suppose Cube [cubeengine.com] counts.
Why 32bit? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's easy to run x86 binaries on x86-64, but vice versa is not possible. I don't know of any x86-only CPUs being sold anymore, the last ones I remember were the early Atoms, so maybe in a few years we can bury the arch.
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:2)
Drive a stake through its heart, decapitate it, bury the body under a cross-road and burn the head.
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:0)
In many places Torque3D assumes pointers are 32bits. So far nobody involved with the project has managed to fix this.
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:2)
I don't know of any x86-only CPUs being sold anymore, the last ones I remember were the early Atoms
Also, the early Core Duo. But who do you know still running one of those? There's probably way more Atoms still in use.
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:2)
I am on my work laptop (running a 32 bit Core Duo, that is). Obviously not relevant in terms of game development, but more so in enterprise software development. My company has somewhere between 15,000 and 20,000 PC units out there in the wild at the moment, and a non-trivial number of them will be running 32 bit processors and/or OSs, and will be for a flipping long time yet.
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:0)
Not really thanks to library depedencies. Fieldrunners needing 32bit pulseaudio, and Crayon Physics 32 mono are two examples that come to mind.
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:1)
64bit binaries are also larger, meaning that for the same hardware configuration the CPU can cache more 32bit code than 64bit. 64bit binaries also take more RAM, increasing swap times.
This is why I'm running a 64bit kernel with most of the userspace being 32bit, the exception are numerical computation tools (numpy and friends) which live in a 64bit chroot. This is my personal laptop, office computers are fully 64bit.
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:5, Interesting)
64bit binaries are also larger, meaning that for the same hardware configuration the CPU can cache more 32bit code than 64bit. 64bit binaries also take more RAM, increasing swap times.
This is why I'm running a 64bit kernel with most of the userspace being 32bit, the exception are numerical computation tools (numpy and friends) which live in a 64bit chroot. This is my personal laptop, office computers are fully 64bit.
If you want "the best of both worlds", you have the new x32 ABI which gives you 32bit pointers and the extended 64bit CPU register set:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X32_ABI [wikipedia.org]
Gentoo is already publishing release candidate stage tarballs [lwn.net] for x32, official support should be coming pretty soon..
PS: Parent is also me, I forgot to login.. sorry about that.
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:2)
The only thing you get out of running x32, apparently, is saving a little memory on pointers. And meanwhile it will almost certainly cause problems as compared to amd64. And amd64 finally works properly for me on Ubuntu, for example I can install wine and lsb-base at the same time. IOW, a not-too-bad idea whose time has already passed.
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:0)
Two reasons: there are plenty of such machines still in use (like the one I'm typing on), and if you don't need the extra space, it just wastes memory. Doubling the size of all your pointers increases pressure on the data cache, slowing things down.
4 GB is plenty for many applications.
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:0)
yet plenty of apps do take advantage of it.
I for one, use over 4 gigs of ram on weekly basis or so on my Gentoo.
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:2)
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:0)
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:1)
And what does that have at all to do with porting and compiling your software for x86_64 machines? You really think people have to license the processor patents to do that?
Re:Why 32bit? (Score:0)
As of recently, less than 50% of all Ubuntu installs are 32bit -- so this is absurd.
And considering that it's a gaming engine... and gamers are more apt to have more RAM... running 64 bit seems more appropriate.
I already donated a few years ago... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:5, Informative)
That was IAC, not GarageGames. This company bought GG and renamed the sub-company Torque, jacked up prices and devoured souls. I'm sure the CEO also ate babies, but I have no picture evidence. People close to the company can testify this is the sort of thing they would do, though.
I have more hope for the engines now than the IAC days, especially after having seen the improvements on the 2D side. There is still much work left, but people who are really interested in more platforms (like Android) are free to contribute. Please somebody start on Android ports of both engines so the whine can stop ;)
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:0)
There are only two employees that exist from when we were owned by IAC. We are a pretty different company....neither of which have harmed any babies in the making of game technology.
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:2, Interesting)
I bought Torque and Torque2D before they were IAC [according to my GG account, I purchased it on 2004-10-19]. Linux support was the reason I bought Torque, and T2D was filthycheap and could be built into Torque [it made an awesome overhead map widget]. Looking at my GG profile, I also purchased TGEA on the promise that Linux would be supported eventually.
Then they summarily dumped Linux support; the code already existed and mostly worked, and GG made the pre-meditated decision to expel Linux, despite it taking genuinely minimal effort to make it work [I even submitted patches but they were never accepted]; that was when I quit using Torque. There's something immensely infuriating about someone having a great, portable codebase, and instead of just keeping it cross-platform, continuously making decisions that led to massive platform-dependence. Even back then, it was obviously a bad decision.
I also successfully had the Linux/X11 codebase building and running on OSX back in the day. That was kinda fun to actually make work. [ooo ! screenshot: http://icculus.org/~chunky/stuff/x11osx.png ]
Nowadays there's so many perfectly viable options. Going back to a company that deliberately gave me the finger in the past just feels like asking for more pain, especially when they're asking the community to pay money, when the past the community offered *code*. Turns out I can hold a grudge like nobody's business.
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:1)
Huh, I posted as AC by accident. Well, to make up for it, here's the post where they officially gave Linux the finger: http://www.garagegames.com/community/blogs/view/9244 [garagegames.com] . The post was titled "Linux Expectation Management"
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:1)
Jeff had to make a hard business decision, and posted the reasoning behind it. I don't think his intent was to give the finger to Linux.
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:2)
Aye, I understand that. Eventually a fiscal decision was made, rationally, by a company teetering on the edge. And that's OK.
But speaking as a developer, I keep going back to my earlier statement; each moment when you're working on code and you have to make a decision, you weigh up the pros and cons of each option and pick the one that you want. The decisions they were making back then were, each time, to choose a windows-specific choice.
Somewhere along the way, the small marginal improvement in development time outweighed the benefits of keeping the code portable. I'd understand if it was a pathologically windows-only tool to begin with, but it wasn't; it was a fantastically portable codebase that they chose to decimate!
I would wager that when they eventually developed mac support, the time and developer resources that it took was way more than the time saved by choosing Windows-only options in the past. As someone who works on portable codebases a lot, the ability to run Valgrind on Linux, and Shark on OSX, is alone worth the extra time it took, because it so significantly offsets debugging time on windows. Difficult-to-debug bugs that manifest only in rare cases on one platform oftentimes manifest far more easily on other platforms, somehow that's the nature of the beast.
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:2)
Jeff had to make a hard business decision, and posted the reasoning behind it. I don't think his intent was to give the finger to Linux.
That might not have been the intent but that was clearly what happened. Should you be able to use the excuse that you didn't originally set out to shoot someone in the face? They took people's money and they didn't deliver. Don't overpromise is one lesson to take away from this. Another is, don't pay for stuff that doesn't exist yet. Which is why anyone who puts any money into this that they cannot afford to lose and not care is a dumbass.
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:1)
Actually, that post is about managing expectations, which leads to discussing how things happened. The post was about transparency. It was actually about delivery and letting people know what they weren't getting, which is hard in any business. And it's something that you have to mitigate with any commercial release.
We don't have to do that now since Torque 3D is open source. We can be transparent in ways that we never could before.
This campaign is about accelerating Linux development by hiring a dedicated team to get it there. And everything they do will be available to everyone on GitHub under the MIT license.
You can call anyone who wants to develop games on Linux natively dumbasses all you like. It's the internet. But there are already people working on the port, and people who would love to get paid to work on the port full time. We're hoping to pay those "dumbass" Linux supporters for their engineering skillset. Because engineers need to make a living.
If the campaign doesn't make it's projected money, then someday it will still be on Linux from the great teams who are working on it in their spare time. All we want to do is pay them to get it there faster.
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:2)
You can call anyone who wants to develop games on Linux natively dumbasses all you like.
I may well be an asshole, but you're a disingenuous douchebag for attempting to put these words into my mouth. I hope you get all that is coming to you for your bullshit.
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:2)
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:0)
You spent hundreds in the hopes that this would come about?
Further proof of why funding schemes like this may work in the short term but in the long term will lead to total shit. There's no way funding like that will continue on a regular basis.
Re:I already donated a few years ago... (Score:0)
That's what I was thinking, I thoght they had promised it ran on Linux long ago?
This is awesome! +1 for GarageGames (Score:1)
The year of Linux Gaming? (Score:2, Interesting)
Can't help but notice all the gaming-on-Linux news popping up recently with Steam coming to Linux, the first Unreal Engine 3 game for Linux and so on.
Not worh your $. (Score:4, Informative)
Torque is just bad software that was abandoned by developers when much better alternatives (such as Unity) appeared, despite it being much cheaper.
Even with source code fully published under MIT license, developer interest towards it is almost non existent. I mean, I welcome this move, but even when free and OSS, developing a game with this engine will cost you more time and money than pretty much any of the closed alternatives.
Re:Not worh your $. (Score:4, Insightful)
I shelled out for TGE at a time when that was alot of money to me, and alot of time went into learning it. I hated the script, which was about the only thing thoroughly documented. The actual engine itself was poorly documented and questions about the engine usually got no attention. Then when they basically abandoned it and started creating more products instead of improving the existing engine, I had enough. This created fragmentation in the community and help system, such that some people move to other engines and no longer participate in the community of the original engine. Rather than improve the documentation and flesh out the details of the engine architecture over time, attention was turned to other $ generating products with new marketable names.
This really left a bad taste in my mouth. I believe there were other paths they could have taken to making 2D and RTS games easier, in a way that would have leveraged a single core engine to ensure the entire community was focused on improving the core.
Obviously I recognize it's their engine to do with as they please. They claim to be a different kind of company now, and I think some of the moves they've made show this to be potentially genuine, so good luck to them. I think the only thing that would really give me renewed interest is to see them do some self-reflection, publicly admit past problems, and talk about what philosophy they will have going forward to avoid those past problems. Are they going to have a long term commitment to this engine?
Re:Not worh your $. (Score:2)
I think the only thing that would really give me renewed interest is to see them do some self-reflection, publicly admit past problems, and talk about what philosophy they will have going forward to avoid those past problems.
I'd want something for my previously-expended money, too. You bought a product and they never provided it. I don't care if they're owned by the same people or not; the company made promises and if you won't keep them, don't buy the company, or at least change the name. You want to ride the coattails of their success but don't want to make good on their promises? That just means that you've maintained them in a state of not keeping their promises. And they bought a legacy of unkept promises, was it worth it to get the codebase?
Re:Not worh your $. (Score:1)
Re:Not worh your $. (Score:1)
"Arrogant Veteran" (Score:0)
From your description it sounds you only have a chance of employing people with about three months of previous work experience. That "arrogance" probably is the honest and blunt statement of the bloody truth.
Here is a free gem from an experienced developer: Nothing can beat skills and experience and if you want to build a long-lasting company, you better have some highly experienced, educated and skilled people in your company. These guys will lay the foundations upon you can base your success. And when you or your MBA-crap friends have an insane idea, they will call it out as such. That will save you lots of money in a year or two. That does not mean you should not hire young people and develop them into "arrogant veterans", but your business is 100% stuffed if you solely depend on inexperienced labour.
But this is the free world - feel free to live in a world of hurt if you really want that.
Re:"Arrogant Veteran" (Score:1)
Re:Not worh your $. (Score:0)
Disclaimer, I work for BeamNG.
While Torque has some problems (script language, weird API), it is also the only professional quality, open source engine (we know because we checked nearly all of them).
Concerning closed alternatives, they are nice when the game that you want to make fits their use cases. If not, you either pay a serious amount of money for a source license, or do as we did and go towards Torque.
Last ditch effort. (Score:3)
Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that (Score:0)
I started on Redhat. Once that was gone, moved to Fedora. When I finally got sick up Fedora's life-cycle and stability I moved to Centos 6.
I like Centos. It's fast, very stable, and has Gnome 2. But of it does not have all the latest software. I can compile some myself, but increasingly I see most developers are using Ubuntu and are developing for Ubuntu.
Maybe it's time for a change.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that (Score:2)
After all, a common reason developers used to give for not developing for Linux was the vast number of competing distros they'd have to deal with (tweaking their program such that it was able to run on each one, and each one had a different set of default libraries, configurations, media locations, etc...). That argument has all but disappeared now that Ubuntu has emerged as the "common face of Linux",
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that (Score:1)
any who are interested can make it run on other distos.
No, they can't. Ubuntu runs with bleeding edge libraries. While Linux has great backwards compatibility, its forwards compatibility is (obviously) not so great. (Whose is?) If these people would just port to Debian stable, for cryin' out loud, it would run on Ubuntu, and practically everywhere else! You'd think they'd get the hint that Ubuntu, like almost half the distros today, is based on Debian. But nooooooooOOoooooo.
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that (Score:0)
Yes they can, it's just a royal pain in the fucking ass. And this is a reason why it's so goddamn annoying to target "Linux" in the broad sense instead of specific distros. Every goddamn distro has something different that makes the whole thing a moving target. So companies opt to target specific, popular distros, and people complain "Oh it doesn't work on X distro, but works on Y? WTF?!"
Re:Ubuntu this and Ubuntu that (Score:0)
You have no idea what you're talking about. Having dealt with binaries on Linux since the Loki days, I say you're way off. The "something different" that most distros add is a desktop environment and package manager, neither of which are of much importance for shipping some binary game crap.
The royal pain in the ass comes when your distros use version X of GLIBC, and Ubuntu is using version X+1, and the binary distributor compiles against Ubuntu's version. Since their binary can't work on your older GLIBC, you would have to upgrade that, and every other linked binary on your system to be able to use it.
OTOH, if they link against Debian stable, which uses X-2, your GLIBC is backwards compatible and will run the binary just fine.
If they want to link to other libraries (libsdl, for example), they can ship versions of the library along with their binary in the odd case that your distro's version doesn't like their binary, but that's usually unnecessary unless they're linked to a newer libsdl than your distro's, in which case WHY THE FUCK ARE THEY NOT COMPILING AGAINST DEBIAN?
If you've got a binary linked against older versions of libraries, the worst thing that can happen is that you have to install copies of those old versions to get the program to run. That's it.
M$ FUD: "Linux Balkanization" (Score:0)
Mr Ballmers and Mr Bill's great moneyspinner will badmouth everything which remotely competes with Windows. Don't take their arguments seriously; they are almost always bullcrap. They will exaggerate and lie to achieve their goal of raking in even more money now that they are billionaires. It basically is a mental disease - Pathologic Greed.
There are of course several techniques of assuring binary compatibility of x86 Linux binaries and it just works differently than on Windows.
Deep down M$ is terrified by the Linux hydra eating itself into everything electronic - from radar processors in cars to DSL routers, telephones and search engines. When they stick some argument to Ubuntu they wake up next morning people telling them that they use Fedora. When they attack that, somebody notes that this deficiency is fixed by CentOS. They are badly scared.
thi0s FP for GNAA (Score:-1)
Re:thi0s FP for GNAA (Score:0)
u wot m8?
Why IndieGoGo (Score:1)
For good or bad, everyone else seems to use KickStarter.
Already the IGG website seems to be lagging, and would require yet another signup etc etc.
Also, 32-bit only? Really? 64-bit is really a shining star for Linux in general
Re:Why IndieGoGo (Score:1)
One of the key reasons was that IndieGoGo has better international support, and some of the best teams who are using Torque and looking to target Linux are from countries not supported on Kickstarter.
We're starting with 32b Ubuntu since that's the common dev target that most engine and game developers target first. We need a solid base target to start from and we can branch out from there.
Re:Why IndieGoGo (Score:1)
Port my AZZ. This is a D3D game. It's a rewrite. (Score:0)
Well, I suppose with the MIT license it's better than rolling your own engine. But crowd-sourcing ? What end user would care ? Weird...
Captcha: hopeful :)
Port to linux? Already there? (Score:0)
Under Ubuntu 12.10,
> sudo apt-get install torcs
When I saw this article, I thought I already had it installed through software center. ....ohh, TORQUE 3d. My bad.
Title Correction (Score:2)
Re:Title Correction (Score:0)
And yet you decided to read the story and comment on it?
Re:Title Correction (Score:0)
So you learned something.
Re:Title Correction (Score:0)
Are you implying that slashdot submissions be titled based on YOUR personal knowledge and experience?
Re:Title Correction (Score:2)
I'm so sorry you are so out of the loop. It really pains me to see you in this terrible state. Reading the article might help. Not that I have any faith that you will.
mo3 up (Score:-1)
Seems genuine (Score:1)
32 bit? (Score:2)
Why is anyone targeting 32 bit in this day and age? The inertia is absurd.
psn (Score:0)
Guys , i just got 2 working psn codes from here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-Y3xHDTTe8