Torvalds Becomes an American Citizen 654
netbuzz writes "Having brought his open-source work and family to the United States from Finland some time ago, Linus Torvalds has marked an important personal milestone by attaining US citizenship. A casual remark on the Linux kernel mailing list about registering to vote led to the community being in on the news. Torvalds has acknowledged being a bit of a procrastinator on this move, writing in a 2008 blog post: 'Yeah, yeah, we should probably have done the citizenship thing a long time ago, since we've been here long enough (and two of the kids are US citizens by virtue of being born here), but anybody who has had dealings with the INS will likely want to avoid any more of them, and maybe things have gotten better with a new name and changes, but nothing has really made me feel like I really need that paperwork headache again.' In that post he also expresses dislike for the American style of politics in which he will now be able to participate directly."
So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's his own business.
WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:4, Insightful)
Wait what? He is a constructive member of society? Hes already contributed to the American culture before he was a citizen? The entire idea of making immigration more difficult is crazy bullshit? *mind explodes*
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
He has TWO kids here? And he had those while NOT being a full american citizen? He had Anchor babies? Someone call FOX news please. We cannot have this filth just coming here and knocking out brats! Wait what? He is a constructive member of society? Hes already contributed to the American culture before he was a citizen? The entire idea of making immigration more difficult is crazy bullshit? *mind explodes*
I realize you are being sarcastic but I would like to point out that he was here legally to begin with. Weird isn't it how some people can actually navigate the Byzantine immigration process instead of just sneaking across the boarder?
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:3, Insightful)
Amazing. Just three years ago, people were saying how they couldn't imagine why anyone would want to come to a country rushing headlong into fascism and therefore an impending social collapse, with all the making of a disaster that would dwarf McCarthyism, and that there didn't seem to be much of anyone who wanted to do anything about it.
The only conclusion I can draw is that both sides are wrong, and/or both sides are right. In any case, if we were doing something so terribly wrong Over Here, I can't imagine why we'd still be attracting so many folks from Over There.
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:5, Insightful)
1. Comments like this wish that this was filed under politics.
2. Dude he is from Finnland. I doubt that he feels the US is rushing toward socialism.
Other than that welcome to the list of great Americans that includes Albert Einstein and Alexander Gram Bell.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
This is just one more reason we need to repeal the 14th Amendment! Nevermind the parts about Due Process and Equal Protection, or the fact that we're ALL immigrants; we have to quash further immigration at any price!
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:5, Insightful)
Right, it's "socialism" that's hurting our county. Not the constant erosion of citizens rights, nope. Not the constant and gratuitous government spending. Not the off-shoring of nearly all our industry because we'd rather have a cheaper item regardless of the human cost overseas. Not the constant War-State mentality where we have to fight "Terrorism", "Drugs", "Copyright", etc, etc, and again, pay for it. Not the fact that our country is basically being run _by_ corporations _for_ corporations (heavy lobbying).
No, it's the thought that maybe, just maybe, some of the spending government does should actually help _citizens_ that's hurting us.
Seriously?
P.S. Sorry for the OT comment. I just get so tired of hearing this BS Glenn Beck inspired bullshit.
Re:So what? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's his own business.
Don't you know anything? His name is known among some people so they have to pretend to understand him on a personal level and act like they personally know him and are very concerned about the most trivial and personal details of his life. That's what we do with celebrities.
Hey, did you know that some woman you've never met is having relationship problems with some man you've never met? Who gives a fuck? Oh yeah, one of them can act/sing/dance so that makes it really really important! Let's not do this with programmers. Please.
Epictetus said something about how talking about the affairs of others leads to small-mindedness. He couldn't have been more on the money.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, considering even a guy with a Master's Degree in Computer Science had such a hard time with the inmigration process he postponed dealing with it again for *years*, I'd say it's hard to blame those who just "sneak" across.
Oh stop (Score:5, Insightful)
You are trying to make an issue where there isn't one. Torvalds was here legally, he had his green card. You can live in the US permanently and never get citizenship, legally, if you wish to.
Thus far I have yet to encounter someone trying to make an issue of people who are legal permanent residents. You seem to be building a straw man ot pick a fight where there is not one.
When you start shouting and being absurd just to start a fight you are no better than those you are trying to attack.
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The Real American System (Score:1, Insightful)
No, what's cute is how naive teenyboppers think tossing around terms like "brainwashed" make them come off as world-weary cynics.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The Real American System (Score:2, Insightful)
The US is lucky in one respect: Unlike most of Europe where citizens 18-20 have to go into the army or other duty for two years, US citizens really only have two duties: Jury duty and voting. No, there is no law forcing people to the polls, but by not voting, people are letting people who are likely dumber than themselves, or the lobbyists and their ad firms behind the attack ads decide the election.
If you are a US citizen, vote. If you like neither candidate, write someone in. It doesn't matter what side you are on, just go, do your research for the candidates, and go vote. /rant.
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, in all fairness, Neither side is willing to do anything about all of that either.
I just get so tired of hearing this BS major party inspired bullshit.
Fixed that for you. It's already pretty easy to see that both sides are pretty much doing the same thing but using different excuses as to why they do it. Why bother acting like this is a right wing vs left wing problem? The powers that be, regardless of their party, have a common goal and, unless you're one of their power elite, you're not included on the winning side of things. Anyone following a major party at this point is fodder to the parties' leadership and a betrayer of the country's citizens.
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:3, Insightful)
Well, to be fair, the Soviet Union had constant and gratuitous government spending, an erosion of citizens rights, and a constant war-state mentality. Socialism with the Big S is generally not the same thing as Social Democracy. The "Socialism" of Western Europe was Social Democracy, not the Socialism of the red flags; the Marxist "Scientific Socialism" of the Internationale that most people call Communism today. Except the people who think they're being cleaver and claim that "pure communism" was supposed to be Libertarian Socialism, aka "Anarchism." it wasn't. Mikhail Bakunin and Karl Marx were arch-rivals in the First Internationale over this issue, and Marxism, slightly refined by Lenin and Trotsky, and established by the Bolsheviks in the Soviet Union was the real McCoy.
Re:OTOH, there's jury duty... (Score:1, Insightful)
Hey, jury duty is important.
Smart people are smart enough to get out of jury duty if they want to, but ask yourself: if falsely accused of a crime, wouldn't I want someone on the jury to be at least as smart as me?
Wrong. Assholes may be smart enough to avoid fulfilling their obligation as a citizen to participate in a vital part of our society. Coincidentally, I think the same assholes (liars, cheaters, scammers) should be physically and emotionally punished in public.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
Chances are high that the only lawn he's mowed since arriving is his own.
Chances are even higher than the guy mowing his lawn now doesn't have the same paperwork that Linus had before he became a citizen.
Re:More importantly (Score:3, Insightful)
The right-wing is more acquainted with logic
You lost me.
"More acquainted" than whom? Everyone else? Does "the right-wing" have some sort of monopoly on rational thought?
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:4, Insightful)
Does that mean Jose can break the law by living here illegally?
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:1, Insightful)
See, your post is why people in the US have a knee-jerk reaction against any and all socialism. The distinction between sensible socialism and whackjob socialism is too difficult to follow without intensive study. I'm a college-educated average Joe, and I can't make heads or tails of your post without resorting to Wikipedia.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
Then they can stay the fuck out! How hard is this to understand?
I may disagree with a foreign country's immigration policy. I might really, very strongly, in the most heartfelt way disagree with a foreign country's immigration policy. I might think they're a bunch of jackasses for having such a policy. None of that gives me the right to break their laws.
Coincidentally, highly educated and highly skilled people from Finland aren't causing the USA's illegal immigration problem.
You might as well complain that people who have not so much as a high school degree have a really difficult time becoming brain surgeons. Horrible discrimination, that is.
Re:The Real American System (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd wager that for every informed vote that gets cast there are 5 votes by people who don't even know what they are voting for but vote automatically for a republican/democrat because thats what they've always voted for.
Hell, my guess is there are even more people who vote who were just told by their union who to vote for and they do it.
Democracy is a good thing, but it only works with informed voters along with limited government. Otherwise, its no better than mob justice.
Re:More importantly (Score:5, Insightful)
The nice thing about the Left is that they keep their loons on the fringe. The Right is currently embracing theirs.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:3, Insightful)
If someone isn't willing to endure a process that provides no guarantees and is instead willing to risk it all to come here, then they should reconsider how much they want to be here. Yeah that makes sense.
Because clearly I am entitled to immigrate to any country I please. Therefore, because of my entitlement, any immigration laws that wouldn't let me move to that country are flawed and should be flippantly ignored rather than respected as reflecting the intent of a soverign nation. It's all about me, baby, and anything that interferes with what I want to do is wrong even if that means breaking the laws and trespassing on the foreign soil of a nation that doesn't owe me anything. Because I take up space and breathe oxygen I get to be anywhere, even where I'm clearly not wanted and even against the wishes of those who rightfully live there.
Signed,
Jose
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:3, Insightful)
The illegal immigration problem isn't nearly as bad as the puppets directed by the Koch would have you believe.
What you fail to understand is that people who come here illegal know it's illegal but living here under the radar is the best alternative they have.
If going to Canada illegally was the only way I could a minimum scratch level of a life for my family, I would break their migration laws. So would you.
It's not about rights, or illegality. It's about surviving. Once the US congress realizes that the sooner we can crter a better way to deal with the issue.
Re:Interesting... (Score:3, Insightful)
I think he's referring to the practice at mass-immigration checkpoints like Ellis Island, where, when the processor couldn't spell particularly complicated names (for instance, those of Polish or Eastern European origin), that they'd just write down something Anglo-sounding and tell them to get used to it. He may have been afraid that he'd end up Linus Van Pelt rather than Linus Torvalds.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:More importantly (Score:2, Insightful)
The fact that the likes of Glenn Beck, Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin are admired by the right wing is just about all you need to say about the right wing. - kg
Re:Welcome Aboard (Score:3, Insightful)
Fine, let's make things as simple as possible. "True" socialism is collective ownership of means of production. So long as you can privately own a factory in your country, it's not socialistic.
Re:More importantly (Score:1, Insightful)
Try reading the Bible sometime; some of the shit in there will blow your mind.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:2, Insightful)
If I were an US leader standing across from Mexican delegation, this is what I'd ask them "Aren't you embarrassed about how many people are fleeing your country?"
It should be embarrassing and shameful.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:3, Insightful)
The lazy ones *do* stay the fuck out. It is the hard-working ones who try repeatedly to get into the country. To work hard, better their family, improve our cities and economy, and pay our Social Security taxes. Would it be a such a terrible thing to give people a way to do this good work legally? Bad laws reward bad behavior. Good laws reward good behavior. Our current immigration policy is one of the worst laws we have.
The second they break our laws to be here they demonstrate a belief that we owe them something. We don't. It's that simple.
An analogy can be made to your private residence. It doesn't matter if I'm the nicest most hard-working guy in the world. If you tell me that I am not welcome in your home, I don't get to stay there against your wishes because I think I should be allowed to. The term for that is trespassing. The fact that I'm willing to do your yardwork and landscaping doesn't override your wishes as the homeowner. If you think my work is valuable and decide to allow me on premises, you may do so, but I don't have the right to demand that you make that decision.
It's the same thing when a sovereign nation decides who is and is not welcome in their territory and on what terms they may be there. The problem lies in the people who don't respect its wishes and break its laws. Any good traits they have like paying taxes or doing work is completely irrelevant. I don't have the right to break the immigration laws of a sovereign nation no matter how great of a person I think I may be.
Furthermore, it's completely pathological to insist on being where you're not wanted.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:4, Insightful)
"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..."
It was this notion that built the most powerful country on the Earth. It's abandoning it that has caused said country to decline. People trying to improve their lot usually end up improving plenty of other people's lot too; the worse off they were to begin with, the more driven they are. What the heck happened to you to forget that? Megacorps?
Bloody Hell! I can understand selfish psychopaths - and will argue with them from the understanding that they only care of themselves - but I'll never, ever, understand people who are acting against their own interests, despite presumably being intelligent enough to understand them.
Re:More importantly (Score:3, Insightful)
The right-wing is more acquainted with logic and therefore less likely to start frothing at the mouth and looking for a way to silence the speaker (however underhanded or childish) in response to any perceived slight or insult. It's part of why Glenn Beck may be admired or respected among right-leaning people for so long as his views make sense to them, but he is not the Messianic savior that many leftists seem to think Obama is.
Which is why Glenn Beck has an online "university," [wikipedia.org] was able to get thousands of people to attend a rally with to "restore America's honor" and "take back the Civil Rights Movement" [wikipedia.org] and has millions of adoring fans who tune in to watch him scream, rant, play his weird word games on the chalkboard and cry? Or why Bill O'reilly has books for children? I am always puzzled by people who seem to think that one political "wing" is composed entirely of mature, intelligent people who have thought out their positions and the other is made of emotional, illogical sheep. The unfortunate truth is that there are a lot of people from the latter category in both parties. I *wish* that the problem was just one party, but unfortunately that's not true. Some people were cynical enough to vote for Obama just because of his race, others were naive enough to believe he was some kind of messiah, but some of us didn't want to vote for a 72 year-old cancer survivor who might die and leave us with President Palin *shudders* nor vote for someone who had basically sold out everything they believed in on the campaign trail (although all candidates do at least a little selling out).
Re:Immigration. (Score:2, Insightful)
From what I've seen it's actually a lot easier to immigrate to the US than it is to immigrate to most countries
Let's be honest though, if you are an unskilled worker from Mexico or Central America without direct family in the US, there is ZERO way to become a US citizen. ZERO.
If you are super-lucky you might get to work in the US on an H2-A or H2-B visa if a company will sponsor you for temporary work, but people on those visas cannot try to apply for citizenship or get a non-work-based visa.
I married my wife overseas. Barely a month later we started preparing paperwork for her green card. It was a relatively effortless process.
Yes, you have found the one easy way to become a US citizen - marry a US citizen overseas.
Part of the reason for this is because of people who come here illegally.
No, this is 100% because the US is not as open to immigration as it used to be.
When my (unskilled) great-grandparents came to the US, they got off a boat, lived here for three years, and became citizens. Period.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:3, Insightful)
The second they break our laws to be here they demonstrate a belief that we owe them something.
Tell that to Rosa Parks...
Of course the truth is it isn't THEIR right to freedom of movement we should be most worried about, it is OUR economy they will improve, directly through their hard work and indirectly through the hard work of their progeny. One of their children could be the world's next Linus. It is unlikely their children could be the next Linus if their kid is born in a small town in Mexico.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:3, Insightful)
$8-$10 per hour plus minimal benefits, employment tax, workers comp. and reasonable working conditions is *way* more than most farmers are paying illegal immigrants.
This was in 2004. I was making $6.50/hr. Minimum wage was $5.15. I had no benefits of any kind including workers comp as farm labor in Wisconsin was exempt at that time.
My question to you is: If farmers aren't paying employment taxes, how is illegal labor going to pay for my social security as you stated in your previous post?
The jobs you lost to illegals are still there, it just costs the farmer less to hire illegals than it costs to hire you, even at $8 per hour. The farmer is doing the natural, free-market thing and hiring the cheaper labor. The illegals are doing the natural free-market thing and taking the work. You could take the work too, but you'd have to lower your wage and expectations.
I didn't have a choice. Like I said in the previous post the farmer just cut my hours to nothing. I ended up taking the pay cut by getting a different job that only paid minimum wage. I would have preferred to continue doing the farm work for minimum wage. My friend who has been looking for farm (and other unskilled) work lately isn't even considered for minimum-wage jobs of this type because he's here legally.
We should realize cheap labor is exactly what we want and make it legal,
I like cheap clothing. Should we legalize slavery to produce the cotton more cheaply? Should we legalize child labor so the mills can make more of a profit? I bet it that would be even cheaper than outsourcing our textile production to China or somewhere else where labor is cheap and human life isn't valued. My point is that government regulation is there to keep the free market in check. This is a good thing for laborers and consumers.
instead of wasting effort criminalizing the very people providing the food we want for our families.
Americans and legal immigrants are perfectly capable of producing this food without illegal immigration. My solution is to criminalize those who deliberately hire illegal workers--I'm talking jail time, not little fines. If there wasn't work, we wouldn't have the immigration problem. Wages (and probably prices) would go up a bit and unemployment would go down.
Re:WOAH WOAH WOAH (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course they weren't breaking our laws to be here. We had an open immigration policy then. As long as you weren't a member of a disfavored race, anyway.
Who is this "our"? Do you own the land illegal immigrants are standing on?