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Comments: 900 +- Linux: GIMP Dropped From Ubuntu 10.04 on Thursday November 19, @09:22AM
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Soulskill
on Thursday November 19, @09:22AM
from the should-have-used-the-fireman's-carry dept.
from the should-have-used-the-fireman's-carry dept.
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kai_hiwatari writes "It looks like the Ubuntu developers consider GIMP to be too powerful for a normal desktop user. They are removing it from the upcoming Ubuntu 10.04. Among the reasons cited are that the UI is too complex, it takes up room on the disc, and 'desktop users just want to edit photos and they can do that in F-Spot.''"
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Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:5, Insightful)
Too powerful for normal users, too limited for power users.
Image editing is still way behind Windows and Mac OSX, where you have Photoshop for power users and also Paint Shop Pro for less power users, but who still like a full image editing suite.
Re:Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:5, Funny)
Chained up in the basement.
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Re:Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:5, Insightful)
Inversely, are we supposed to believe you because of your registered account or UID? a quick google search of "gimp solaris motif" says no [gimp.org]. Try not harping on people just because they're anonymous, douchebag. Disclaimer: I am not the anon.
From the link:
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Re:Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:4, Insightful)
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Curiously... (Score:5, Interesting)
Our raw photo processing is done with Bibble Pro and Noise Ninja, both of which sell native Linux versions. GIMP is a keeper for image editing, however, and gets quite a lot of use. Especially by my teenage daughter, who became a GIMP whiz as a pre-teen.
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Another stupid move by ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the ways of introducing people to alternative software is to install it and have in sitting there on the menu. By removing the GIMP, they're just encouraging people to think that linux is "not ready for serious users."
For people who are used to working with photoshop, the GIMP is different - hence cumbersome. Same as for people used to MS-Office, OpenOffice is "too different", or who are used to "teh InnerNet == IE", firefox was too cumbersome.
People got over it with firefox, they're getting over it with oo, and given time, those who are sufficiently motivated to explore will get over it with the gimp.
Between the fugly colour schemes, the stupid naming schemes, the artificial restrictions on root (hey - it's MY computer, not yours), not including the toolchain for building the system by default - even on xubuntu, etc., I'm glad I stuck with opensuse.
If they want it to be so dumbed down, why don't they just pull a lindows/linspire?
Yes, it's a flame, but ubuntu sucks for development. And now it's going to suck for users who want a bit more than average / mediocre.
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Re:Another stupid move by ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
[X] Who said anything about icons. Stick it in the applications menu. Would Applications->>Graphics->GIMP be so hard?
[X] My desktop is 3840x1200, you ignorant clod!
[X] My 50" plasma IS my laptop secondary display.
Ubuntu is taking a step backwards here. Again.
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GIMP's stupid name (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not familiar with the negative association you mention, but I do have a negative association with the word "Gimp": it's slang for a crippled person. Just what I need: software that hobbles along!
One thing that Linux seriously needs to get over is the need to name everything with acronyms. Mozilla didn't call their browser the Standard Link-browsing Universal Gui, because SLUG is a horrible name for a browser. And GIMP is a horrible name for... well, anything.
Then the icon is this crazed badger or something. I'm confused from the get-go.
The complete lack of marketing savvy is one thing that gives Linux the "not ready for prime time" public image. At least Ubuntu makes software that doesn't scare people.
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Re:Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:5, Insightful)
The same ["It is a very powerful tool"] goes for Photoshop, and none of us expects that to come bundled with Windows...
Ah, but so often it is, as Photoshop Elephants.
The danger now is that F-Spot will grow, and we'll have a never-ending cycle of basic utilities becoming ever more bloated tools. Kinda like VW cars (where would we be without a car analogy?): the Lupo is about the size of a Golf Mk. I.
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Re:Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:5, Informative)
crap?!?
I confess - I've tried several photo suites. I would love for Gimp to be as good as or better than photoshop, and it's not.
It *is* 90% of photoshop, at 0% of the price, which is far more than any of the other (half-dozen) suites *I* have seen in various jobs. It has one major failing that they're working on in the palette issue (I happily concede having never been in a situation where that made the slightest difference. That said, sure I don't do desktop publishing, but I'm am not egocentric enough to go "Sure it's a major field but I don't use it so who cares!". Yeah, it's a major failing that doesn't happen to affect most users.)
But it's a great software application, it's simple/intuitive enough that my *mother* can use it (Admittedly, she wasn't ruined by using photoshop first), it does 90% of what it's strongest competitor does, 99% of what any standard user will do, it's a small (~35 mb vs 1 Gig(?!?!) required for CS!) install, it runs well (Let's not get into the *other* CS requirements), and it's, ah . . . not the price of a used car.
You keep using this word - I do not think it means what you think it means.
Pug
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Re:Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't think many people will care. Ubuntu already doesn't provide a lot of software I use pretty often (avidemux for example) - I'll just grab GIMP using apt.
I like it though. Don't get me wrong as someone who once taught Photoshop (only a beginner's class - I'm by no means a Photshop guru) I realize that it's limited in comparison, but the thing is that I don't do professional graphics work. I edit home pictures and just generally goof around. I need more than MS Paint, but I don't want to spend any money given my limited software budget I allow myself for personal purchases (mostly just games nowadays - for utility programs I use only free stuff). As such, since I won't resort to pirating commercial apps, GIMP does nicely. It's about as close to Photoshop as you're going to get in a free application, and once you get used to it it's not that bad.
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If GIMP is in universe (Score:4, Interesting)
I'll just grab GIMP using apt.
But if it's in "universe", Canonical won't sell tech support, and it'll probably lag behind in updates.
It's about as close to Photoshop as you're going to get in a free application
The more honest comparison is to Photoshop Elements, but otherwise, your point is valid.
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Re:If GIMP is in universe (Score:5, Informative)
Try Debian Unstable.
It's almost always newer than Ubuntu. Stuff is updated very regularly and you don't have to mess around with PPAs.
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Re:Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:5, Insightful)
I've always wondered why one of the camera manufacturers hasn't gotten behind Gimp instead of writing their own buggy photo editing/raw conversion tools. It would prove interesting.
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Re:Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:5, Interesting)
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Don't forget Paint.NET (Score:5, Informative)
On Windows there's also my personal favorite, Paint.NET. It does WAY more than Paint, it's fast, and it's free. It ain't Photoshop, but it's all I need.
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Re:Don't forget Paint.NET (Score:5, Informative)
Plus it's written in [expletive deleted] .NET, so it will probably never be available for Ubuntu
That's funny, because Ubuntu is including F-Spot, which is written in C#.
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Re:Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:4, Informative)
Not forgetting on OS X Pixelmator [pixelmator.com] which is a truly *excellent* piece of software
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Too bad, really (Score:5, Insightful)
It's too bad, really. I like GIMP because it shows users that unlike Windows, which comes with a bunch of widget apps at best, that Ubuntu comes with serious productivity software, equivalents of which on Windows can cost hundreds or thousands of dollars.
I guess I can see where they're coming from. I do agree that double-clicking on a picture shouldn't launch a full-fledged photo editor like GIMP, but I liked that it was easily accessible without having to do anything extra. Couldn't the same argument be made of OpenOffice.org? Are they going to replace it anytime soon with a scaled-down Wordpad equivalent? What about Compiz? Those also take up space, aren't needed for basic computer use, and could be installed with trivial effort.
Actually, for most users, I'd suggest GIMP on Windows, or for lighter-duty work, Paint.NET [getpaint.net]. I gave up on Paint Shop Pro after Jasc sold out to Corel. It's gotten more expensive and now they're playing games I hate that other mainstream commercial software is. (There's now a more expensive "Paint Shop Pro Ultimate" edition...). Too bad, too. Years ago, Paint Shop Pro was one of the first shareware programs I ever bought.
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Re:Where does this leave GIMP? (Score:5, Interesting)
...too limited for power users
Uh, no. Not any more.
I used Paint Shop Pro from nearly its beginnings until Jasc sold it to Corel. I tried Corel's first version (PSP v9 IIRC) and went back to Jasc's last version (PSP v8.1 or 8.2) since the Corel version offered nothing of significance except more idiot buttons ("click this and it will make your image better!). Then I moved to GIMP when I switched from Windows to Unbuntu-- 2007 / 2008, about 18 months in transition. Much of the transition involved learning GIMP's menus, and with changes in the last version I think this is now going to be easier for newcomers.
If you are doing commercial image work for hardcopy printing, then you need to have at least one copy of Photoshop available for the specific tools it provides for that kind of stuff (CMYK color separation, etc). And you have probably gotten your formal schooling on Photoshop and it probably isn't worth it to you to build skills with any other interface.
For everyone else, including commercial work for electronic presentation (PowerPoint, PDFs, web pages, texture and billboards in 3D modeling and animation, etc), PSP used to be an excellent low cost alternative to Photoshop. Upgrades were adding new significant new features and there was a large and active community providing an incredible amount of support. But Corel appears to be more focused on developing more idiot buttons for the digital camera amateur than in making improvements to the core code.
Meanwhile, GIMP has gained significant new capabilities and is now the clear leader in all aspects of image preparation with two exceptions: it does not have the specialized tools for interfacing with hardcopy print shops; it uses a different menu structure and nomenclature than that used in Photoshop based schools. GIMP's core is under active improvement, with new releases happening more frequently than Photoshop or Corel can manage. There is a large community of users who are providing the same kind of support that PSP users used to enjoy.
The GIMP has layering, masking, and filtering that is equivalent to Photoshop. It has a plugin capability and the community has provided a very broad range of additional features through this. It is a product that can do serious image work.
Back to the main topic of this thread-- I think Ubuntu is right in dropping the GIMP from automatic inclusion. Those of us who are into serious image work will have no trouble adding it back in. Persons who are looking for quick fixes for their snapshots are better served by Picassa or something like that (I haven't done any work with F-Spot so I can't say anything about it).
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Only removed from default install (Score:5, Informative)
Let's be clear - it's not removed from Ubuntu, it's removed from the default install.
It's still a click away in the package manager.
Sounds sensible to me. I'd imagine the vast majority of Ubuntu users are unlikely to use the gimp.
Re:Only removed from default install (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree it should be in the package manager as a download.
I think the CD version should just be a bare bones OS with all your drivers and a few basic aps, the DVD version should be the deluxe model with all the bells and whistles.
That way for people who just want to add stuff later so they can pick and choose load a CD for people who want it all weather they use it not they can go DVD.
I think some other distro's work this way.
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Re:Only removed from default install (Score:4, Insightful)
Sounds sensible to me. I'd imagine the vast majority of Ubuntu users are unlikely to use the gimp.
And any user that wants Gimp will know to install it. It was a rather specialized package to install on every desktop distro. We don't put geda or rosegarden or Scilab on every desktop. If I'm setting up a machine for web browsing, games, light office tasks, etc., Gimp just wastes space and install time.
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Re:Download size (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Download size (Score:5, Funny)
The Windows GIMP installer is 16MB if that takes 5 hours to download it would mean it takes 9.11 days to download the full 700MB ISO.
Wow I just realized something if it take 5 hours to download 16MB that is about 7Kb/s. At that rate it take 9.11 days to download 700MB. See the relationship 700, 7, and 9.11.
It means that GWB knew about 9-11. 9-11 was perfectly executed hence the 7, the 700 club is a conservative organization so that means GWB new. Canonical fits in because Linux is a Communist system and they want to found a NWO.
PEOPLE OPEN YOUR EYES
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Re:Only removed from default install (Score:5, Informative)
If you want Slackware you know where to find it.
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name change (Score:5, Insightful)
why do the developers of gimp refuse to change the name? i have used gimp, i have it installed on windows, and i really like it. i think that given it is free software, it goes far and beyond what one would expect of a free program.
but surely it could benefit from a name change...what would be the downside of a name change? would some developer's egos be bruised that they bowed to outside pressure?
i dont mean to troll, but once the name changes
Re:name change (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:The name says what it does (Score:5, Insightful)
Here's a far better name, took me 2 minutes to think of:
GNU Image Manipulation, or GIM, pronounced "Jim" as in "Jimmy up some lolcats in there" or "fake, that pic's been jimmed!".
Easier to pronounce, has no meaning as either GIM or "Jim" in any language I can think of, except as a name in English.
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Re:name change (Score:5, Insightful)
The upside would be having a software program whose name is not a pejorative term in the English language.
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John (Score:5, Insightful)
I've found myself in a position more than once trying to explain that GIMP is a powerful image editor. But management types don't listen after I tell them the name of the software. "GIMP"'s name is the single biggest barrier to adoption of what is otherwise a fantastic image editing software. I've been using it for years to produce my (admittedly not at the Disney level) graphics - see farmdirectory.org for my latest project that includes (among a ton of other OSS) GIMP's handy work.
The latest version of Gimp had some really nice enhancements to the UI. I use GIMP almost every day. Every time I spin up the GIMP process, though, I lament the name.
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I have no issue with this (Score:5, Interesting)
I have no issue with this. Gimp is more than most people need anyhow and maybe it will be a good kick in the nads to get the Gimp guys to clean it up a little more.
Photoshop is a lot more intuitive than Gimp is. I always feel like I have to jump through hoops to do the same thing in Gimp as I do in Photoshop.
Re:I have no issue with this (Score:4, Insightful)
if you're used to Photoshop. Gimp is a lot more intuitive than Photoshop if you're used to Gimp. I've cursed at Photoshop; my wife curses at Gimp. That's cause we got used to working with one, and the other just works differently.
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Re:I have no issue with this (Score:5, Insightful)
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Nonsense (Score:5, Insightful)
Nonsense. it's like removing Photoshop from the install of Windows.
Oh, wait......
PFref (Score:5, Funny)
Zed: Bring out the Gimp.
Maynard: Gimp's not installed.
Zed: Well, I guess you're gonna have to go apt-get install him now, won't you?
Yay. (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, so they removed GIMP. Maybe not so bad... assuming their out-of-the-install "replacement" was decent. But come on, F-Spot? What the f***? Seriously? I don't like so-called "media libraries" that ask you for a specific "working directory" and mention copying all your crap over to it *right on the first screen*. I guess the best thing about this is that it's only a _sudo apt-get install gimp_ away. Couldn't their replacement at least be a proper image EDITOR, not all-in-one manager? No way in hell I'm touching F-Spot, that's for sure.
not a surprise (Score:5, Funny)
A distribution for those who can't find their ass with both hands.
What is the story? (Score:5, Insightful)
As long as I can still do "sudo apt-get install gimp", who cares?
Why I Quit GIMP After 2 Minutes (Score:5, Insightful)
So I've used various drawing programs for years to make crappy little graphical schematics to post online. MS Paint is all I really need, although I've used Photoshop and similar programs as well.
I heard a lot about how powerful GIMP was, and my Mac didn't come with even a basic drawing tool, so I downloaded it. Lasted... oh, maybe 2 minutes.
The issue came when I wanted to draw a line. Now, every other graphics program I've used has a "line" tool, somewhere in plain sight. Observe: ...and so on. Such was not the case for GIMP. In GIMP, you use the Shift key with other tools to draw lines. Not an inherently bad way of doing things, I guess. But here's how you have to find out about it:
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/Using-Paint [microsoft.com]
http://www.extropia.com/tutorials/photoshop/line_tool.html [extropia.com]
http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/Straight_Line/ [gimp.org] (That's from the official GIMP site, mind you.)
Hey, GIMP guys. Screw you and your sarcastic screenshot telling me what the "Shift" button is. Your interface is the WEIRD one. People who use MS Paint or Photoshop or friggin' ClarisWorks - your potential customers - expect "line" to be a tool, not a key. And it's not like the key is entitled "Shift Or Draw Straight Lines In Some Linux Programs." It is NON-OBVIOUS that this would be the manner you draw lines. I don't care that I had to look up how to use a new interface, but don't act like I'm supposed to psychically fucking know ahead of time how your arbitrary interface works.
Note how both MS Paint and Photoshop are way MORE straightforward in this operation, and yet avoid sarcasm in their tutorials.
Re:Fark.com photoshop contests? (Score:4, Funny)
You are doing it wrong.
This looks shopped.
I can tell from some of the pixels and from seeing quite a few in my time.
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Re:Yep (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't mind the gimp UI as long as it has it's own workspace. Gimp on windows or gimp on a desktop used by someone that doesn't utilize multiple workspaces is...agonizing.
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Re:Yep (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Yep (Score:4, Informative)
In how many editors is the red-eye-removal tool something that actually manipulates the red layer of the image rather than just being a black paint tool?
It seems stupid that Gimp is one of the few editors that will not mar your photos if you try to do red-eye removal on something like the cheek but it is true. The dang thing is a tad more complex than a "simple editor" needs to be but it at least gets the "technical details" of the process correct. The "simple tools" don't.
I've been suggesting a "granny gimp" sort of UI theme for a long time.
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Re:Yep (Score:4, Funny)
Why is it boarder line stupid?
2.8 is not out yet so the current version is still the one with the not so easy to use interface.
I bet that it will be on the the Add remove menu if not Synaptic so what is the problem?
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Re:Yep (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:What is F Spot? (Score:5, Funny)
"What is it and where is it?"
Are you sure didn't mean G Spot? :)
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Re:They've got this one backwards. (Score:5, Informative)
No, what it's REALLY about is the amount of space it takes up on an install CD, and the fact that even your proverbial Grandmother could figure out how to install it off the internet with one mouse click using Ubuntu's amazingly slick package management interface.
This story should have been titled "Ubuntu speeds up install process for people who don't select Gimp", except that would make it too obvious that there is no story worth writing about here.
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Re:Good (Score:5, Interesting)
To me photoshop was the odd interface because I encountered that after gimp and CAD programs - and then got flamed a great deal when I asked where undo was. The response from several was "real professionals save frequently and will never need undo" along with a prolonged game of kick the newbie that never pretended to be anything else in the first place. The reality is just like CAD and solid modelling programs. There are too many options to make a simple interface possible thus both suck until you've used them a lot.
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