Net Radio Exec Says "Don't Mention Linux" 442
Barence writes "It might be reliable enough to power their device, but it seems some companies are still a bit reluctant to use the 'L word' when talking about their products. Speaking at the launch of the touchscreen Pure Sensia digital radio, director of marketing Colin Crawford was pressed for specifics of the new device's software. But after his CEO reminded him that the new radio was based on a Linux OS, Crawford remarked: 'I don't like the using the word "Linux" on a radio.'" Of course the presence of (possibly embedded) Linux may not have any relevance to consumers in some products; but does the word itself carry a commercial stigma?
Competitive advantage (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe it's a competitive advantage and they don't want to advertise all the details of what lets them produce a device cheaper and faster than their competitors. Really, the Linux community needs to stop seeing adversaries around every corner.
re: Stigma (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't let those annoying facts get in the way (Score:5, Insightful)
Depends on who "you" are, and its not so much playing the cards. The system admin is likely to be your weak link in a security situation, so it is up to the qualifications of your admin more than anything else. Granted, you'll probably find more people who are pro server admins on other systems more than linux just because linux is still only gaining running ground. If you hire a system admin, however, they should know the OS at hand or they SHOULD NOT BE HIRED. Period.
A shitty Linux admin is just as bad as a shitty Windows admin.
Re:gnu? gpl? probably a license issue (Score:3, Insightful)
There are almost certainly outfits for which that is a serious issue; but I'd be shocked if these guys are one of them. Their device is almost certainly a more-or-less stock ARM board, with a Linux BSP already provided by whoever they bought it from, along with a few not-very-exotic peripherals, also likely off the shelf. On top of that will be their closed blob of a program, which is where all their special sauce is. The program running on top is completely unaffected by the license of the OS, and is almost certainly where the only remotely distinguishing work was done.
Because it's not relevant? (Score:5, Insightful)
Slashdotters like to jump at it and go "cool, does that mean I can hack on it like my toaster?". They in marketing probably have absolutely no interest in that, they want to sell an appliance. Whether it's running Linux or BSD or WinCE or whatever else embedded OS, that's not what they want to talk about. That's not what they want the marketing message to be. They don't want people thinking of it as a computer in drag because computers are complex and their device is easy and user friendly. Funny how a marketing director might want to focus on features and not the internals of the OS running the thing. So it runs Linux, great. Could we get back to telling you why this is a product people will want?
WebOS (Score:1, Insightful)
Just call it the "WebOS" like Palm does.
Re:Competitive advantage (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe it's a competitive advantage and they don't want to advertise all the details of what lets them produce a device cheaper and faster than their competitors. Really, the Linux community needs to stop seeing adversaries around every corner.
Because using linux as an embedded OS was such a keenly revolutionary idea that no one else in the marketplace would ever consider the possibility on their own.
Right.
Maybe there is a plausible explanation, but that sure ain't it.
Advertising "it's got Linux" is as stupid as... (Score:4, Insightful)
Advertising "it's got Linux" is as stupid as those bank ads I kept seeing a couple years ago boasting that their new website was using Java on the backend or something. As an end-user consumer, I don't fucking care. Does your product work reliably? Does it provide me with some service I need? Is it easy to use? That's what I care about, not some mostly irrelevant technical detail of its implementation.
Re:Stigma to Linux (Score:2, Insightful)
>>>"will it do everything that Windows will?" I explain that it will
I get annoyed when Linux users tell untruths simply to "sell" their product. Reminds me of certain Software vendors I've encountered at work with their "magic demos" which seem to do "everything", but the real product doesn't do half of what they demoed. Here's a few things Ubuntu Linux won't do:
- Connect to my ISP (the software connects and then crashes before I type my password)
- Run my ISP's web accelerator software (simply doesn't run)
- Run Internet Exploder (starts-up then crashes five minutes later)
- Allow me to select 1000 songs, right-click on "open", and play those songs sequentially in VLC Player. Instead the stupid OS tries to open all 1000 songs at the same time. I had to yank the power cord to regain control. I haven't seen that level of poor design since AmigaOS 1.2 (1987).
- Won't properly emulate Atari games via StellaX (which works 100% on Windows but only 70% on Linux)
- Adjusted the screen size to 640x480, and when I tried to go back to normal 1280x1024 mode, discovered the desktop properties window did not fit the screen. Normally that'd be no big deal except the "OK" button was inaccessible so my laptop is now permanently stuck in 640x480. (Or at least it was until I wiped the c: drive with a fresh XP install.)
-
- And that's just what I discovered during my first month of usage.
And now I will be labeled "troll" because I'm a customer who speaks the truth. Salesmen hate customers who speak their minds. Better to silence them, so their complaints don't get heard by other customers. (You know like Apple does when they make exploding iphone users sign non-disclosure agreements.) I'm sorry but I've tried Ubuntu Linux, and rather than put-up with all the Non-user friendly problems listed above, I'll choose Windows or Mac OS.
Re:Most of us are unqualified to comment (Score:5, Insightful)
This is truth. You have portions of the population who are interested and then those who aren't. I don't think people hate it, but they rightfully know that is not for them, and that is true for a desktop environment. The problem is most people don't understand what embedded means and so mentioning linux can scare people out of even looking at the product because they think it must just be something they are incapable of operating. I am willing to bet most westerners have interacted with a linux machine at some point in their life, most without knowing it. Embedded linux is everywhere but no one needs or wants to know it.
Re:Competitive advantage (Score:5, Insightful)
There is. Most people in the real world don't even know what an operating system is, and that your average appliance uses software to do the things it's supposed to do. Bothering them with that only confuses them.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Stigma to Linux (Score:4, Insightful)
> - Run my ISP's web accelerator software (simply doesn't run)
What is this? Some guy with a cross-temporal terminal? Why would anyone
be interested in running that sort of thing in this day and age. You
might as well whine about there being no version of Compuserve for Linux.
Re:Most of us are unqualified to comment (Score:3, Insightful)
That actually calls to mind another reason why it may be uncomfortable to mention the "L" word in public. Linux has been introduced on the desktop many times by many people in different ways. All people knew was that they couldn't run the programs their friends were running, see the same web pages that their friends see (in the same way) and that there are no programs they can buy from the store that will work with it off the shelf. To them, "it doesn't work right."
Many people have tried to switch to Apple Macintosh and quite a large number of those people couldn't manage the transition for exactly the same reasons.
But one thing I have been saying for at least the past two or three years that seems to be coming true -- the desktop will become irrelevant and that Linux will take over because it is getting into every server and every embedded system out there. One thing I never said before that I am saying now is that almost no one will notice or care.
Linux sounds like technobabble (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Bad marketing info? (Score:3, Insightful)
No nock to Linux since I think it's a great OS, but I get the impression that this maketing exec thinks it has a 'home built' sort of stigma attached to it.
No, he doesn't want to mention it because it detracts from his message. The fact that it runs Linux is irrelevant; that's not a selling point but merely an implementation detail. I work with embedded Linux devices - TVs and Blu-Ray players currently - and the fact that they run Linux is about as relevant as who made the chips or which factory assembled the boards. The people who buy these devices care about what they do, not how they do it; discussing the how part is totally irrelevant. If you try to sell a "Linux-based TV" people will wonder why they should want a Linux-based one instead of a regular TV - and in fact might be led to believe they're buying an all-in-one Linux computer and TV. Which they don't really want. They just want a TV so that's what you will sell them, and you will point out its superior TV functionality. Unless they ask you don't mention implementation details.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:LINUX INSIDE! (Score:5, Insightful)
I am a programmer not a marketer, but your attitude towards marketing is something I hear all the time in technical departments. It creates an unhealthy us vs. them dynamic in companies that hurts communication. Communication between techies and marketing people is hard enough already.
Marketing people are not idiots because they cant program a computer. The really good ones are experts at manipulating peoples emotions and desires in subtle ways. Since people's emotions are not rational things, the work of marketing people does not follow rational rules either. This makes their work seem "dumb" to obsessively rational people like us programmers.
Why do you think upper management seems to always "fall for" the "idiotic" ideas of marketing and not listen to the "rational" arguments of developers? It's partially because marketing people are experts at making compelling arguments. While we are really good at making logical arguments that are factually accurate yet convince no one but other logical people.
The other reason is because marketing may not be as "smart" as development, but they get a fundamental truth that seems to evade many programmers. It's more important (to the company) to SELL your product than to make it good. Look at all the half-asses crap around you to see how true that is.
So.... I forgot my point, but you get my point.
Only amoung marketing types. (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Don't let those annoying facts get in the way (Score:4, Insightful)
A-farking-men.
Linux -- really, the Unix family in general -- does have some security advantages over Windows. For example, lower desktop market share makes it less attractive (and, yes, that is a security advantage); a straightforward access control system makes it easier to harden; text-based config files make it easier to audit; etc.
However, security features don't matter if you don't use them. If the average idiot uses Linux, they only safety they have right now is that it's not being targeted especially actively. As soon as there are a few "useful" trojans out there, J Random User will happily enter his password at the sudo prompt to get the strip-poker game (or whatever) the malware is riding on.
This is only untrue if you have a professional administrating the machine, and disallowing stupid user tricks.
Re:Stigma to Linux (Score:2, Insightful)
You need to connect to your ISP, type in a password and then run web accelerator software? seriously, accelerator software? do you actually believe it accelerates anything(except maybe money out of your wallet)? get a proper ISP.
wait wait... you installed Linux and then tried to run IE?... words fail me....
You're right... you speak your mind, but it's saying "I don't know bugger all"
Re:Stigma to Linux (Score:1, Insightful)
And now I will be labeled "troll" because I'm a customer who speaks the truth.
You are not a customer. You throw out this bullshit post after post. What make it BS is not the truth/falseness of it. I have no doubt you tried linux, failed, and now you need an outlet on which to blame your incompetence. In twenty years of PC ownership (Mac, Windows (Dos/3.1 to XP), and Linux (Fedora/Debian)) what I have learned is this: shit happens. What matters is your ability to deal with it and your platform of choice. You couldn't hack it on Linux. BFD now shut the fuck up.
That aside, you know what I like about Linux? It is the one platform that I don't consider myself to have become near expert at. Mac/Windows - no problem. Well the problem is that the ceiling was too low and every few years the rules change as the new hotness is shoved down people's throats. When everybody was bitching about WGA and DRM, I made my move and haven't looked back. There is a lot more to learn but there isn't anything I miss from Windows. If I wanted to play a game, I would have a game system for that purpose but leave it for games. A PC is nothing but $200 in parts. Now for your stupid list:
"- Connect to my ISP (the software connects and then crashes before I type my password)"
Don't use your ISP's software.
"- Run my ISP's web accelerator software (simply doesn't run)"
Don't use your ISP's software.
"- Run Internet Exploder (starts-up then crashes five minutes later)"
If you want to run Windows, run Windows, don't be a pussy.
"- Allow me to select 1000 songs, right-click on "open", and play those songs sequentially in VLC Player. Instead the stupid OS tries to open all 1000 songs at the same time. I had to yank the power cord to regain control. I haven't seen that level of poor design since AmigaOS 1.2 (1987)."
You should learn your GUI or some CLI basics.
"- Won't properly emulate Atari games via StellaX (which works 100% on Windows but only 70% on Linux)"
So you are happy in the bottom 30% in standardized tests?
"- Adjusted the screen size to 640x480, and when I tried to go back to normal 1280x1024 mode, discovered the desktop properties window did not fit the screen."
You should learn your GUI or some CLI basics.
"Normally that'd be no big deal except the "OK" button was inaccessible so my laptop is now permanently stuck in 640x480. (Or at least it was until I wiped the c: drive with a fresh XP install.)"
You really are a fucking retard.
Re:Competitive advantage (Score:5, Insightful)
It's probably more like they do not want their perfectly fine and functional product damaged by the MS FUD and campaigns by others to profit from MS products.
It doesn't take long to realize all the negative publicity out there published with the intent of pushing MS over linux or Mac. The average consumer, if they become aware of it, will not know the context of the statements and could shy away from their product because MS releases another study about windows being cheaper, more stable or Linux not working right, has a bunch of headaches or something.
This idiots who would buy their product would likely see Linux on the side of the box and walk away because of something like that. OF course, most enthusiast or knowledgeable people would likely gravitate towards it, but they are far and few in between.
Re:Linux. (Score:2, Insightful)
Aside from the mac thing, he makes a good point. Part of the reason why there's been such a push for an easy install and good user experience is that every time you alienate a user with an OS that doesn't "just work", it creates an OPPONENT of the OS. At that point, they really have to love learning something new, or love a challenge to go back.
Case in point, the first time I tried to install Linux, the mouse driver stopped working every single time I booted the system and I literally had to chmod one of the config files in order to prevent it from being overwritten by some wacky boot-time application. The average user, when confronted with that kind of problem, will get frustrated and not spend 2 hours looking for some fringe case mouse driver or chmod hack in order to get things working (That's assuming they have more than one computer to look up the information with, which most people don't). They'll just quit and think Linux isn't as good as Windows or Mac. Unfortunately, as far as user experience goes, you not only have to combat ignorance, you also have to combat the bad experiences of those who the experience failed in the past.
Now here's the part that REALLY sucks. A few Linux users out there at this point will say "Well if you're too stupid to figure out how to get a mouse to work, you don't deserve to run the best OS in the world." That's where a major company with people who are paid to support new/ignorant users (not stupid, ignorant) for free (for the first 30 days of ownership) beats free-if-you-can-find-it support.
So when marginally tech saavy users hear the words "powered by Linux" and they tried installing it prior to 2007 or so, the first thing they feel is FEAR, and DOUBT that they will be able to get support if it fails. These aren't people who went to a LUG event and met the cool people, they tried it out, blew away their windows install and lost data.
The number ONE thing the big Linux installs like Red Hat and Ubuntu SHOULD be focused on is a campaign that says something like "GET YOUR Linux, AND FREE PHONE SUPPORT...FOREVER - GET THE PENGUIN!" and then create a consortium that funds that support. Then when people hear the word Linux, they think "hey - Linux is THE shit" instead of leaving out the "THE".
-- The Penguin loves you. Love the Penguin.
Re:Competitive advantage (Score:1, Insightful)
Oh?
You mean those hand-held devices that scream all over "powered by Micosoft" are confusing to the poor consumer?
Hmm.. tell the Microsoft marketing department. They would love to hear they are hurting their braindead costumers by telling the name of the OS on the device....
Re:Don't let those annoying facts get in the way (Score:4, Insightful)
security features don't matter if you don't use them
The difference between Linux and Windows is not in terms of security features that you do or don't use. The key difference is that Microsoft deliberately channels "not-quite-what-you-wanted-ware" to your system and those channels are used by others for putting malware on your system. The entire point of ActiveX [computerworld.com] is to put software on your computer you didn't ask for. The reason why autorun wasn't disabled when you thought it was [us-cert.gov] is because MS wants to be able to automatically install software. The .Net/Silverlight system has the same idea behind is and will turn out to be a similar disaster. At the very least it will be used to inflict DRM you don't want.
No amount of astroturfing will change the fact that when you get a Linux system, you get to choose exactly what is there and exactly what isn't. Since you only choose the bits you want you don't tend to choose the bits (except flash) that are designed to automatically install malware. I'll agree that this isn't a fundamental difference between the security Linux Kernel and Windows kernel's security mechanisms. VMS, which Windows copied was certainly more secure than UNIX. However, that's a purely academic discussion. The actual Linux system you install is less likely to deliver software you don't want than the Windows system.
Re:GNU/Linux (Score:2, Insightful)
You can't always call it GNU/Linux. In an embedded system it's very likely there are no GNU stuff on it at all.
It is the combination of the GNU operating system and the Linux kernel that the FSF asks to be called ‘GNU/Linux’. If an embedded system contains no GNU then — fairly obviously — their request would not apply. Nobody is asking you to call the kernel itself anything other than ‘Linux’.
Re:Competitive advantage (Score:1, Insightful)
If you say 'Powered by Linux' then the majority of people may as well have heard 'Powered by Snarblax' - They still have no idea what it means
Maybe they would catch on if they just heard the name Linux a few more times. They won't if you have your way. Why should Linux be the OS that dare not say its name?
In conclusion, you, Anonymous Coward, are a moron.
No he's not.
Re:Don't let those annoying facts get in the way (Score:3, Insightful)
For example, lower desktop market share makes it less attractive (and, yes, that is a security advantage); a straightforward access control system makes it easier to harden; text-based config files make it easier to audit; etc.
"people can't be bothered targeting us" isn't the best security policy.
Re:Don't let those annoying facts get in the way (Score:3, Insightful)
A shitty Linux admin is just as bad as a shitty Windows admin.
I'll raise you one. I would say it is worse. Unix is far more configurable and assumes that the admin knows what they are doing a lot more than windows does. Its much easier to stuff up.
Re:LINUX INSIDE! (Score:3, Insightful)
You speak a lot of truth. An "us vs them" dynamic is a horrible thing to have within a company as it creates an unhappy atmosphere and potentially reduces communication further, impairing effectiveness of the company as a whole. In defense of the (seemingly eternal) engineering vs marketing squabble I'd note that there seem to be a fair number of companies where marketing is the tail, wagging the dog. In an aggressive company that's trying to win lots of contracts, marketing has a motivation to sell impossible things and this has the potential to cause serious tension.
In my opinion, it really ought to be management's job to sort this out. In an ideal world, the management aren't just there to monitor what people do, or walk about PHB-style and disrupt stuff. Words like "facilitate" get horribly weasel-ified and overused but the fact is that it *is* something they should be doing. Facilitating communication between different groups with different work styles and personalities. Setting the priorities so that nobody can reasonably feel under-represented. A strong manager ought to make an effort to compensate for the persuasiveness of Marketing arguments over Engineering, they ought to make sure the two divisions have appropriate contact - perhaps not too direct - and that there are staff (if not management themselves) who can "translate" between the two to find a fair deal.
When marketing and engineering talk too directly without understanding each other, I suspect that's always likely to create conflict - they have very different priorities. If one or the other is disproprotionately listened to or handed power or paid, that'll create resentment. The employees must bear some responsibility for not creating an adversarial workplace but the managers should be working *really hard* to mitigate the root causes of an adversarial environment - intolerance, unfairness, poor communication, etc.
Re:Don't let those annoying facts get in the way (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:LINUX INSIDE! (Score:2, Insightful)
Your point is that capitalism is an evil beast that needs to be brought down before it fills the world with broken-from-the-factory useless shit that looks pretty.... right?
And here I didn't expect to agree with you, I've got a lot to learn.
Re:Competitive advantage (Score:4, Insightful)
These things are all irrelevant to them, or at least they think they are.
The fact that my car engine has 24 valves is irrelevant to me. I only care that it gets me where I want to go. If I were a gearhead it would matter, but I'm not so it doesn't. When it breaks, I either take it to a mechanic or to a gearhead friend, who is likely to call me when his computer breaks.
There no reason for a non-nerd to care what OS their radio uses.
Re:Competitive advantage (Score:3, Insightful)
They tend to like Windows.
Bloody liar.
Nobody, not even Bill Gates Likes windows, no person on this planet can honestly say..
"Windows? It's fantastic! I love it, I love how it works, it's perfect in every way!"
Every single person on this planet has at one time or another ran into a windows problem and screamed at the Computer or said, "What the hell, why did they do that?". and with Vista and Windows 7 locking down your computer to protect precious digital property from evil old you, and treating you like a thief, No sane person can like windows.
Tolerate it? yes. Some tolerate it better than others.