Linux Port For id's Tech 5 Graphics Engine Unlikely 461
DesiVideoGamer writes "John Carmack, the lead developer for id's Tech 5 graphics engine, does not plan on making a Linux port for the new engine. From his e-mail: 'It isn't out of the question, but I don't think we will be able to justify the work. If there are hundreds of thousands of Linux users playing Quake Live when we are done with Rage, that would certainly influence our decision.' One of the reasons for not making a Linux port was due to the fact that the new engine 'pushes a lot of paths that are not usually optimized' and that the Linux port would have to use the binary blob graphics driver in order to work."
Big news... (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux Gaming not a huge market...more at 11pm
Too bad (Score:5, Insightful)
I've come to count on id porting their games, so I'm disappointed over this bit of news.
I use the proprietary Nvidia blob (version 180) for my Nvidia 8400 and I have no qualms about it. Windows users use proprietary drivers for practically every card that I've seen over the years, so how is it any different in principle if you replace Windows with Linux? While I take open stuff when I can get it, I would rather have a video card and wireless device that works on Linux. Not every Linux user sees things the same way that RMS does by insisting on a 100% FOSS operating system. While you can have that if you want it, I prefer the freedom of being able to mix and match as I see fit.
Re:Big news... (Score:5, Insightful)
But it is a market with very little piracy of native games. Also, very little competition, so you have a better penetration rate. Not sure if it is enough, but it is substantial.
100% of "very small" is still "very small"...
Re:Big news... (Score:4, Insightful)
But it is a market with very little piracy of native games. Also, very little competition, so you have a better penetration rate. Not sure if it is enough, but it is substantial.
100% of "very small" is still "very small"...
I guess we have different definitions of small. If half the Linux users would all send me a buck, I think you might consider that to be a bit of cash.
Binary blob ... eh? (Score:5, Insightful)
"and that the Linux port would have to use the binary blob graphics driver in order to work"
From TFA, it seems that Carmack believes it would be hard to get the necessary performance without using the NVidia drivers. It's somewhat surprising to me if it wouldn't be possible to get it running acceptably on anything else, even if the game does use a lot of advanced features - but if Carmack says so!
However I'm not so keen on his assertion that if you're using the binary drivers you might as well run the code under Windows. I guess this probably *does* make sense for most people, since there are relatively few people who don't have a Windows license available somewhere. However, it would be *nicer* not to have to reboot into Windows for a specific app even if that were unnecessary.
Unfortunately I saw a fair few quite negative reactions in the linked thread and I expect we'll see others here. Carmack has not ruled out a port for sure. But even if he does, that's not exactly evil or a betrayal of open source or anything else negative. Many gamers here will have benefited in some way from the GPLed code he's released to the OSS community in the past at some point, pretty much all gamers will have benefited from his position as a developer pushing the games industry forwards. He's not done anything *bad* here, he's just not necessarily doing something we'd hoped for.
Hopefully the Rage code will - one day - be GPLed and get ported to Linux. I think that's a fair way down the road at this point, though.
Re:Big news... (Score:5, Insightful)
100% market penetration for yet another first person shooter. A cutting edge first person shooter. On an OS whose users like to brag about how shitty and old their PC is.
Re:Big news... (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux users never pay for anything, so it doesn't even matter.
Nope. I didn't buy all those iD games the day the Linux port came out. Never happened.
;)
And Red Hat and Crosover Office really don't make money at all... It is all a myth.
Re:Big news... (Score:5, Insightful)
Linux users never pay for anything, so it doesn't even matter.
Do Windows users??
Re:Too bad (Score:2, Insightful)
I wasn't being satirical... The Beard knows all!!!!.... OK, I can't handle that any more. Back to reality.
Personally, I agree with you. The Cult of RMS is just that. If you don't fully drink the Kool Aid, you are outcast and unclean. That closed minded thinking annoys me to no end.
Re:Big news... (Score:5, Insightful)
On what do you base that first assertion? Because you wish it were true, because Linux users are somehow better?
I would have said a similar thing about indie games once, particularly those who support their fanbase well and opt for no-DRM releases. Then World of Goo, which calls home for one of the online features in the game, reported a near-90% piracy rate. They even gave out the first world as a free demo, for chrissakes.
The fact is, there's nothing unique about Linux that's going to somehow reduce the piracy rate. I mean, let's face the facts: it's a group of users savvy enough to get their hands on a distributable (possibly via torrent), who have opted for a free OS with tons of free software, and who tend (if this very site is to be believed) statistically towards antiestablishmentarianism. We're hardly ideal customers for anything we can't recommend for purchase at work.
Re:Big news... (Score:2, Insightful)
It is not that Linux has a small market, ID claims technical problems with the Blog drivers.
This is sad because a lot of Gameheads are locked into Windows for playing games, and if Linux versions had existed you'd see more Gamehead defections to Linux because most hate Windows crashing on them or causing lags in the game when it eats up resource memory. If only Video Card makers would open up their standards so open source drivers can be used for them. My Nvidia chipset driver for Linux is limited to 2D support and there is no 3D support yet unless I use a proprietary driver. What almost killed OS/2 was lack of third party driver support as well as lack of OS/2 native software. Since OS/2 ran 16 bit Windows and MS-DOS programs companies felt that there was no need to write OS/2 programs, and hardware vendors didn't see a need to develop OS/2 drivers when Windows was dominating the market. Now Linux is facing a similar problem that OS/2 had, and software companies like ID are not making a Linux version and telling people to use the Windows version instead. I hope it at least works with WINE. :)
Good analogy. (Score:3, Insightful)
Cars still work, and are still fun, and can still be innovative, despite all of them using the exact same UI, even when the steering column is no longer necessarily directly connected to anything, and the car could've been driven as easily with a joystick.
The same could be said of first person shooters. The gameplay mechanic may not change much, but the games can be very different experiences, and they are still fun. Indeed, many of us still have fun with the occasional Doom 1 game, so if Doom 4 ends up playing just like Doom 1 but with better graphics, I don't see that as a bad thing.
Re:Big news... (Score:4, Insightful)
The plural of "anecdote" is not "proof".
Re:Big news... (Score:3, Insightful)
How many of those 3 million are sitting headless somewhere, serving up files or running batch jobs?
20% of gamers that run Linux, have a decent enough PC, and enjoy FPSes might be more reasonable.
The fanboys come out early (Score:3, Insightful)
The Zenimax deal really has killed id software.
This news needs to be blogged and passed around like wildfire. id software is dead, long live id software!
Yes, it is Zenimax that killed the linux port, not any of the reason that he lists or anything...
Re:Big news... (Score:3, Insightful)
You are full of crap. I have purchased *dozens* of commercial games for Linux: Wolfenstien 2, Heroes3, Doom3, Heretic 2, Myth 2, Goo, Sim City 3000, are just a few I can remember of the top of my head. All commercial. All Linux based. And I am certainly not alone.
Re:Big news... (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure but the real issue is, not if the AC is full of crap, but is Carmack full of crap when he says that your purchases (and those of your fellow Linux game buyers) aren't themselves enough to justify the expense of porting this engine? Certainly he has access to id's sales stats. Why would he lie about such a thing? And furthermore, if the Linux game market is so fertile, yet underserved, someone such as yourself should be able to make a killing funding a Linux games startup.
Re:Not worth the money. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's not a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's fulfilled by the external factor that not enough Linux users are buying games. For it to be self-fulfilling would indicate circularity -- that Linux users aren't buying games because they aren't being put out. But that's not the case. They have been put out but are simply not selling large enough numbers to justify additional investment. Porting more games would simply make the debit side of the balance sheet worse. And that kind of investment can't be justified these days -- we're in the midst of a huge game recession. Even consoles games are hurting, so what would inspire a major game studio to leap into Linux?
Ok seriously... (Score:2, Insightful)
When the hell did the Ubuntu Forums become a trusted/valid source of news?
Slashdot is going downhill fast. I tried to deny it but this is just crap.
Re:Binary blob ... eh? (Score:3, Insightful)
No, not Bethesda. They're owned by ZeniMax, who also owns Bethesda. It's ZeniMax that has to sign off on it.
id Tech 5 is impressive right now, but so was Quake 3 back in the day. I wouldn't rule out id Tech 5 being open sourced when their next big game is about to be released on id Tech 7.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Big news... (Score:4, Insightful)
If he really meant that, I'd put together a Linux box and play QL on it.
I'm all for more companies actually making games working natively on Linux. Games are the only reason I use Windows at all.
Re:Too bad (Score:5, Insightful)
First they implemented video card drivers as blobs, and I didn't speak up because I was happy playing games.
Then they implemented the network drivers as blobs, and I didn't speak up because I enjoyed faster network connectivity.
Then they implemented the storage drivers as blobs, and I didn't speak up because now the latest hardware ran in Linux.
Then they implemented my kernel as a blob, and there was nobody left to speak up for me because their systems were causing kernel panics because of all the blobs that nobody could debug.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Linux and games still don't mix. (Score:4, Insightful)
Nvidia didn't just write a regualr binary driver, they had to rewrite a large chunk of Xwindow and package the resulting mess in a large drop-in binary blob, unstable and heavily dependant on the kernel version.
This part you got backwards. Because they did a pretty clear cut that depends little on kernel versions, they've constantly been much faster at supporting the latest kernels than AMD, like for example kernel 2.6.29 was released in March and supported only by Catalyst in the August release from a few days ago.
(...) windows (non)emulation can not keep up with Microsofts technical progress on directx. So many recent AAA games in every genre are listed as 'bronze' or 'garbage'.
Yes, they are. However, very few of these are related to the Direct3D part of WINE and if they are they're usually solved by installing the d3d dlls. However closed source is very prone to crashing if anything else isn't as it should, particularly Microsoft's Live services have been a big problem. Games that actually get past that like World In Conflict have quite decent performance on par with Windows, same with King's Bounty that's a fairly 3D intensive non-FPS.
The PC gaming market is small enough to justify p[orting to a platform that is a tiny fraction (about 1%) of users.
Yep, this is what it is about. Not just Linux users, but the intersection between those Linux users interested in a high-end FPS having the hardware and willingness to pay with the market that isn't already getting it somewhere on Windows. Don't get me wrong, I get what's native when I can, what's running in WINE when it works, but there's no competing with a Wintendo box...
Re:Big news... (Score:3, Insightful)
it sounds like this time id went for dx10 - even though they claim the (possible) pc and mac versions are based on opengl (I'm still slightly puzzled by this claim tbh). I ("only") minor in CS, but to my understanding, if you dev an application on a certain (cross plattform) api, it should easily be adapted to other plattforms. Seeing as one of those plattforms is mac - which to my knowledge only 'understands' opengl (no directx port) - their statement makes little sense. why should they be easily able to dev for mac but not for linux, seeing as the general basis is the same and they both work really well with opengl?
-sniff sniff- I smell bacon!
id used to offer a linux bin for basically any of their games - why is it so hard this time?! are they maybe not actually using opengl..? are they snubbing the nix market? are they going to make the effort for the mac market? if so, if they have to port it to opengl for the mac (or has ms actually released dx10 for the mac?!), why can't they type a "couple lines" of code and port it to nix afterwards? hell, chuck me the code - I've been looking for an excuse to read up on opengl and the *nix kernel - as long as I can put it in my CV!
id is one of those dev groups that have always gone out of their way to please the open sourcers, the modders, the community. it's no coincidence that most of their games were used in lan competitions.
for now, I have this big muthaf*cka of a question mark on my head. and any which way I look, I'm not really happy. id is (was) one of those game devs I could look up to and that gave me hope for free software - even if it meant buying the windows version and later dl'ing the linux version.
(having said all this, I might be totally wrong - or not hehe! please correct me if neccessary)
Binary driver on open source operating system (Score:3, Insightful)
There is no reason to attack RMS over this. RMS is just telling the true stupidity which breaks the main purpose of Linux OS.
Even using latest OS X and only Macs, I can understand how ridicolous the binary "blob" driver is. One doesn't need to be a GNU fanatic to do so.
What was the reason behind binary blob drivers again? Evil competitors stealing x86 code? What competitor really? It is just ATI and Nvidia left. ATI already went open , Intel was always open but not really a gaming GPU company. It is not RMS, it is Nvidia being old fashioned regarding open source. They don't have any competitor left and they aren't aware of it.
I got 3 PPC Macs here, I am the live example of Linux PPC effected by this "binary only" drivers. It kills the experience I would get from Linux, perhaps it would show how Apple wasted the G5 platform (just theory), would give a safe path for future of these PPC machines which still runs, an alternative...
Re:Big news... (Score:3, Insightful)
And Red Hat and Crosover Office really don't make money at all... It is all a myth. ;)
I know you're being sarcastic, but what about Loki Games?
Re:Why can't a game run itself without an OS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Wait, you want it to take 5 minutes to boot from your normal OS to the game and then 5 minutes to switch back?
Re:Big news... (Score:4, Insightful)
"It never snows in August"
"Categorically wrong. Your assertion is untrue. Study the 'little ice age' of the medieval period."
"Uh.. anyway, since it never snows in August..." *rolls eyes*
Natural languages would break if they were consistently held to mathematical and logical rigor. Your statement may be technically accurate, but the OP may still be 'right'.
Re:Big news... (Score:3, Insightful)
so you would never really hear the X-windows system is probably the worst piece of software ever written
ORLY? let's see you backing that up with some reliable data. Something better than the "it's 20 years old!" and "it uses the network!" idiocy that gets posted to Slashdot so often, preferably.
or that Linux drivers do not really exist as the frequent kernel changes makes vendor software drivers invalid
Carmack's argument is that he can't port it easily without relying on closed-source drivers, and you somehow derive from this that Linux needs *more* closed-source drivers? or are you just trolling out of context here?
Re:Impressive? Really...? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Big news... (Score:3, Insightful)
I ("only") minor in CS, but to my understanding, if you dev an application on a certain (cross plattform) api, it should easily be adapted to other plattforms.
Not harsh enough. If an application is developed on a cross-platform API, it should work without modification on every platform which has that particular API framework installed. If it doesn't, the API isn't cross-platform.
If id code a game engine which runs on OpenGL 3, it should run on OpenGL 3 in Linux, Windows, Mac, my SE mobiel phone... Any device which has "OpenGL 3 compatible" somewhere in its description. I shouldn't have to dick about with something to make it work if it says it runs the framework I've coded for.
I'm sure there are plenty here that don't (Score:3, Insightful)
If you read Slashdot for more than a little while, you find a non-trivial amount of posters that seem to think charging any money for software is wrong. "Information wants to be free," and all that. They believe everything electronic should be no cost. That is part of why they use Linux.
Well, it would be no surprise at all if those people copied their games. After all, they believe it is right. There is no ethical dilemma for them, they think this is how it should be.
Also, doesn't matter if there is very little copyright infringement on Linux, there are very little customers. Doesn't matter WHY people aren't buying the games, it just matters that they aren't. So even if 100% of users willing to pay for the game are in fact paying for it, that doesn't help if that number is too small to support the costs in porting it.
Re:Big news... (Score:3, Insightful)
The "complaint" about the binary drivers really seems to be the most senseless of all.
If I am willing to run Carmack's proprietary code and pay for the priveledge, the idea
of running some binary driver doesn't seem like much of a stretch really. I really don't
see the problem.
Re:Big news... (Score:3, Insightful)
Like games and run Linux? Well... (Score:3, Insightful)
Buy every Linux release.
I have a policy: If I think I'll get more than a few hours of entertainment out of a game and it runs on Linux, I buy it.
I've purchased a bunch of Id releases (Q3, Q4, D3), a couple S2 titles (Savage 2, Heroes of Newerth), World of Goo, UT 2k3, Neverwinter Nights, and a few others. These games are WELL WORTH their box price, and I'm telling these developers to keep it up with their linux ports.
I would bet if every gamer that also runs Linux does the same, we'd see a lot more Linux games. So, Linux gamers, do your part!
Re:Big news... (Score:3, Insightful)
The point of WINE is to help your migration path to Linux. If you have an app that only runs under Windows and you need some time to wean yourself off of it, WINE is great for that. If you have a non-critical Windows-only app that you'd like to run from time to time (say, certain games), WINE is great for that. If you have a business-critical Windows app that absolutely needs to run and there's no way you're migrating out of it, just run Windows. Computers are tools and you should configure yours to do what you need it to do - don't let anyone convince you otherwise.