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Comments: 172 +- Linux: Open Source's Battle In Africa on Friday May 15 2009, @02:32PM
Posted
by
ScuttleMonkey
on Friday May 15 2009, @02:32PM
from the soak-em-for-all-they-are-worth dept.
from the soak-em-for-all-they-are-worth dept.
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eldavojohn writes "The BBC has more details about something we last discussed in 2008 — the showdown of open source versus proprietary software in Africa. When discussing the issue of cost, the piece quotes Microsoft's chairman on the scene, Dr. Cheikh Modibo Diarra, who alludes that open source continually costs you money by saying 'You buy Microsoft software, and you buy it once and for all, the cost that we tell you is the total cost for ownership.' On the other end of the story is Ken Banks from Kiwanja.net who has spent 15 years developing open source applications in Africa. His logic is that 'Today we're seeing growing open-source programmer, developer communities in South Africa, Ghana, Kenya, Nigeria and other African countries. Clearly, if you have this informal programming sector coming up, access to source code is almost critical if they are going to be able to take advantage of these new tools that are emerging.' Well, the battle rages on, hopefully the emerging African developers and users pick the tool(s) that suit their needs the best."
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Developers in Africa? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Developers in Africa? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Oh great (Score:5, Funny)
Sure! (Score:5, Insightful)
"'You buy Microsoft software, and you buy it once and for all, the cost that we tell you is the total cost for ownership.'"
And then Microsoft stops supporting the product, changes the formats the products uses, and makes prior formats erratic or impossible to implement. It's a good thing you'll enjoy your purchase of brand new software, because you'll be doing it again and again and again.
Or, you can go the Open Source route, which is continually and freely developed, usually for free-as-in-beer, and respects its own history. And if development stops, it's usually because some better Open Source project forked off or replaced it.
Better as in "it performs a better job," not better as in "we'd better release a new version to keep our market share."
Re:Sure! (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
You buy Microsoft software, and you buy it once and for all
Really? I finally have a senior Microsoft employee saying I BOUGHT MY SOFTWARE!!!!!
For years Microsoft has claimed the software is licensed, not sold, to skirt the laws on selling of products, along with all the EULA crap.
I'm going to have to quote Dr. Cheikh Modibo Diarra next time a Microsoft sales rep calls.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Consider also the cost of training. Consider potential workers, one who has paid somehow for commercial software and training, one who has trained him or herself with the help of the community and access to everything for free. Who costs more to train? Who do you think will be willing to work for less as a new hire?
Consider the inconsistencies of Windows' interface and the registry, versus the consistency of the command line, everything's a file, text based configuration.
Consider the existence of open sourc
Re:Sure! (Score:5, Insightful)
I never anticipated the death-by-a-thousand-papercuts mode of inoperation I would experience when moving from a linux to an MS shop. Really, you can't even legally run the OS on a VM without appropriate licensing. When you run commercial/proprietary, you run costly.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft has a program for ISVs that grants you developer/testing licenses for almost everything they make for up to 5 developers, for like $300/year.
You get full access to everything on MSDN and downloads for just about everything but special programs, generally before the public does. 5 unique accounts are allowed under the program so your developers that work with MS software can test whatever they need. As long as its used in testing and not for production services, you're legal for any of those 5 de
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course he isn't. He's an executive. That's in his job description... "Lie to sell" is right after "Dispose of any moral qualms" on the list of qualifications.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It's ironic that he stated "Technology wise, African needs can be summarised in one word: access" because keeping older MS-Access versions working is one of the trickiest parts in a Microsoft solution.
Although I'm a Linux-only programmer, I've had several people where I work ask me for solutions to recover lost MS-Access databases. "I only use Postgres, call Micr
Contact Canonical (Score:5, Informative)
The big advantage of Microsoft is that you can buy it on a disk.
The big advantage of Ubuntu is that Canonical will send you, free of charge, an entire Operating System [ubuntu.com], complete with application stacks, on a DVD if you ask.
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
> I can't seem to find a package list of what, exactly, comes on those disks
Mirrors where the disk can be downloaded, should usually contain .list file where you can see this information. E.g.:
http://ftp.heanet.ie/pub/ubuntu-cdimage/releases/jaunty/release/ubuntu-9.04-dvd-i386.list [heanet.ie]
> 6-10 weeks delivery time? The price is right, but if you need something now
You could perhaps download CD or DVD image and burn it yourself for those who need it? You don't have to order it.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
This is what I do now. Travel with a laptop, a bunch of blank discs, and a set of commonly useful packages. (a mix of Windows binary/source packages and Linux, but lighter distros that run well on the typically older hardware I run into.) Doesn't help people I don't happen to meet, but every little bit helps, right?
Microsoft is shooting themselves in the foot (Score:3, Interesting)
Instead he'll end up with Linux and Open Office if the gov't cracks down on pirates, and MS will b
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
While I call bullshit on the MS statement, I also call bullshit on your statements for being the exact same level of crap.
Eventually everyone stops supporting old versions of software. Show me a Linux distro thats supported as long after EOL as Windows, go ahead, I'll wait.
I can show you FAR more open source projects that came, were cool/awesome, and have gone cause no one develops them anymore and no one cares about their formats. I can probably show you a handful that have done all of that life cycle in
Re:Sure! (Score:4, Interesting)
Can we please let this old BS die, please? I'm gonna get flamed for this, but who cares. The GP is an admin and dealing with business clients and therefor most likely has a brain. You know why folks become spambots, so do I, and so does he. It is because they run IE as full admin and click on every damned thing on the Internet. If you put those morons on Linux or Mac there would be "Hot_Lesbos.SH" and "Horny_Tenn.DMG" flooding the net within days. Stupid is as stupid does. I have plenty of business clients running as admin at work and home. Not a single bug. Why? Because they don't go to pron sites, they don't go to warez sits, they don't use IE and they don't click on every damned thing on the Internet, that's why.
If you are dealing with Forest Gump users you put them as regular users. Boom, problem solved. And I don't have to deal with the support nightmare that is the fact that pretty much every printer in Walmart don't work in Linux. Geeks like to do research, customers shop at Walmart or Staples or Best Buy based on price. Expecting them to do research just to buy a printer is stupid. So while each OS has its place (Linux makes a damned good low maintenance server, a properly admined Windows makes a better desktop) trying to spread the "all Windows machines are part of botnets" FUD is just as lame as MSFT with it's "get the facts" campaign.
The quicker the Linux community admits there are some things that Windows is better at, the sooner they can make up the deficit and give users real choice. But the "spambot" FUD simply won't work as the users most likely to be spambots are also the ones most likely to have hardware that won't work in Linux. Frankly they'd be better off as a regular user in XP where their hardware would actually work. That is why Mac gained share during the Vista suckfest and Linux stayed non existent. Because for the average user it was cheaper to buy a Mac than deal with all the research and BS to get Linux going in their homes. Sorry.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"Why is that? How could a nearly decade old insecure OS stomp the crap out of a brand new Linux distro? because for home users Linux sucks,"
Totally, out of this world, wrong. Not flaming you - but it amazes me how little people understand the monopoly. Please, look to your local school's curriculum. What are children taught? MS, of course. Very nearly every computer in every school has MS installed. It was made a standard, mostly as a result of MS "exclusivity" agreements from a decade ago.
Son number
You buy it once? (Score:5, Informative)
"'You buy Microsoft software, and you buy it once and for all, the cost that we tell you is the total cost for ownership.' "
Yeah, like phasing out support for older OS's. And putting in new formats for the next Office iteration. I had to buy the new Office for home because those who upgraded never remember to downgrade. Not to mention that if you don't have a service contract you pay $X (I forget the number) per service call. I'm sure there are more instances of how "buy once, this is TCO" is wrong, but I'm not up to date on MS's current procedures.
What's the cost of OSS? Learning curve? Like Office 2007 didn't cause most people fits when it was released? I don't use Linux, so I'm no fanboy, but that statement was just ridiculous.
(Oh, and I graduate with my MIS degree tonight! Sorry, just happy.)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Oh, and I graduate with my MIS degree tonight!
Hats off to you. Enjoy your unemployment and food stamps.
Re: (Score:3)
Oh, and I graduate with my MIS degree tonight! Sorry, just happy.
I initially read that as "I graduate with my MS degree tonight," and was wondering why you were so happy...
I don't use Linux, so I'm no fanboy...
Any particular reason why you don't? (I'm always curious)
Cost of ownership? (Score:5, Funny)
Jesus, I've been a fool for using Linux on my personal systems. Why, considering all the man hours I've put into it, I would have saved virtually hundreds of dollars by paying for a quality Microsoft product!
I'm going to run out right away and buy a new operating system! Looking forward to never having to configure anything, and having a bug free system that does everything I want!
(Mods - Joke. Really.)
Re:Cost of ownership? (Score:5, Funny)
So you are getting a mac then?
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I used to admin PDP 11/83s and 84s for a traffic signal system. They ran RSX11M. Most of them we would do preventative maintenance once a year. So when you shut it down for PM uptime would be one year. They had a certain solidity about them. The way it would be working exactly the same way at one year as it was at one minute uptime.
We didn't have a PDP-8 when I worked there but one day on
Re:Cost of ownership? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why, considering all the man hours I've put into it, I would have saved virtually hundreds of dollars by paying for a quality Microsoft product!
I can virtually gurantee that all those man hours you've put it in will yield benefits for years to come, many of which may not readily apparent. Unix Text Processing, for example, was first published in 1987. If you had read that book way back then, or read it for the first time last week, you can put the knowledge to good use on your new Ubuntu system.
By contrast, a seasoned Windows admin is typically someone who's amassed a stale collection of trivia consisting of GUI shortcuts, registry edits, familiarity with utilities provided by someone other than Microsoft to accomplish ordinary things, a mental list of workarounds for things that never seem to work right, and memories of DOS that just won't go away. If he's really good, he'll be able to cite KB numbers.
Parent
Re:Cost of ownership? (Score:5, Insightful)
By contrast, a seasoned Windows admin is typically someone who's amassed a stale collection of trivia consisting of GUI shortcuts, registry edits, familiarity with utilities provided by someone other than Microsoft to accomplish ordinary things, a mental list of workarounds for things that never seem to work right, and memories of DOS that just won't go away. If he's really good, he'll be able to cite KB numbers.
In my experience, solving Windows problems involves a lot of bottle shaking. Solving problems on Unix-like platforms typically rewards logical thinking and expecting that the computer will do what you tell it to do (the trick is learning how to be specific).
Parent
Re:Cost of ownership? (Score:5, Insightful)
Second that. I always felt like Unix tools were generally like lego blocks. Once you learn how they go together, you can build pretty much anything you need. Ten years from now, all the lego blocks you've accumulated still work with your new lego blocks, and you can keep using them over and over. By contrast, Windows tools are generally like die cast toys. That matchbox car is pretty awesome at being a little metal car, but if you want an airplane, you just have to save up your allowance and go buy one (well, unless it happens to be the kind of matchbox car where the doors open - then you can pretend they're wings if you have a good imagination).
Windows is all about giving you a fish, and Unix is all about teaching you to fish.
Parent
Of Course You Only Buy It Once (Score:3, Insightful)
Of course you only buy it once. By the time the next version comes out it is so bloated, full of new DRM, in need of new video cards to handle the latest DirectX version, and just plain overall inefficient, that you need a new system to run it - which unavoidably comes with the next version of Windows preloaded.
Per processor licensing should have been banned long ago.
Deceptive story (Score:2, Informative)
In Africa, Microsoft faces strong competition from open-source software in particular the Linux operating system. Many use that and run run free counterparts to the Microsoft Office suite.
This is completely deceptive. The only people I know who runs Linux are students, programmers or web hosts. Run of the mill people do not use Linux at all. OpenOffice on Windows is used a little bit more often â" usually by people who cannot get a pirated version of MS O
Re: (Score:2)
There really is not incentive to use non-MS products. MS gives away all its software to university students and windows for the classrooms.
You mean aside from getting your students to learn how to work a computer in general concepts instead of just how to work MS Office $CURRENT_YEAR? Not to mention learning a variety of tools and software they can actually use legally for free once they graduate and are no longer students.
That's amazing (Score:5, Insightful)
Wow. So all that money that we're spending hiring administrators, paying for software support and beating applications with a crowbar until they run properly is _completely unnecessary!_ I have been such a fool for all of these years. All I needed to do was pay the sticker price for a copy of Windows Server and that would have been enough for everything!
*cough cough cough* *mumble* *cough cough*
Total Cost of Ownership (Score:2, Informative)
'You buy Microsoft software, and you buy it once and for all, the cost that we tell you is the total cost for ownership.'
This just proves he's been listening to Microsoft too long. He's using Microsoft's favorite buzzword without even thinking whether his statement makes sense. The purchase price is not the total cost of ownership. Not even Microsoft is claiming that.
Even they will admit that TCO includes training and support. Microsoft's argument is that there are a lot more Microsoft-trained personnel than Linux-trained, so you don't have to train them yourself, or pay them as much because there are plenty of others wit
Re:Total Cost of Ownership (Score:5, Informative)
Dude, please read TFA/S a little more closely.
Microsoft is claiming that. The person who said those words? Microsoft. A very high-ranking official in Microsoft's African operations.
He hasn't spent too long listening to Microsoft... he's spent too long being Microsoft.
Parent
Ownership? (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly. Total cost of ownership of Windows is zero. If there is no ownership, then there is no cost of ownership.
Hence, the TCO of a Windows install will always be less than or equal to the TCO of any competitor.
Nice trick, MS. I gotta give it to you, that was pretty clever.
Disclaimer: Definitions of "ownership" may vary (Score:4, Informative)
Whenever I hear someone in the U.S. say that, it's usually quickly followed by a Microsoft or BSA representative calling them to clarify that the term "ownership" means "we still own it, we're just giving you a license to use it, and if you want more, you will pay us more."
If this guy genuinely believes Microsoft products are a "buy once, own forever" proposition, I think he's in for a bit of a shock once the install base reaches critical mass.
Fine print (Score:2)
It was when he said this that the fine print started to appear:
* Price does not include technical support, which is free for the first two sessions, but USD $99 for further sessions (and per hour via telephone), the price of new computers you will have to buy to feed our bloated clock-cycle-consuming system, the costs of upgrades,, the extra cost of Office, or the rediculous amoun
Difficult sell in the developing world (Score:5, Interesting)
Trying to promote Linux in places like Africa that are still working on their IT industries could be perceived as paternalistic. The sad, sad fact is that the majority of the western world uses MS Windows, and that if you try and say that despite this, African users should embrace Linux - it can come across as if you are fobbing them off with something second rate. You aren't, of course, but that isn't how the Microsoft Ministry of Truth is going to spin it.
The best way to promote Linux in developing markets is to promote it in developed markets. Countries that want to build their IT industry will, logically, look to how its done in countries with successful IT industries. Any increase in the Linux user base in the United States or Europe will be mirrored by an increase in much of the rest of the world.
More FUD (Score:4, Insightful)
"You buy Microsoft software, and you buy it once and for all, the cost that we tell you is the total cost for ownership."
You can't really expect me to think that people in Africa are that fucking stupid to believe this line of bullshit...
you buy Microsoft software ? (Score:4, Interesting)
You don't buy the software, you license it until the next version of Windows comes out and your software becomes incompatible with that, and your computer has virtually no resale value as the software has to be totally wiped else you risk a visit from the BSA. And according to Gartner the TCO [open-mag.com] for a company to support Windows was $9,784 per anum per computer (1997). You think it's come down in the mean while :)
The sad truth is ... (Score:5, Interesting)
That only the government and the largest enterprises are buying software, all the rest is pirated.
So "Free/Open Source" software is at exactly the same price as "Closed Source" software.
And there is a sick fascination with "the rich people" although they became rich by ripping you off.
And the main supperiority of "Closed Source software" is that it gives more opportunity for "back door handlings"...
And of course the "donor organisations" are much better at recommending "nice donor nation originated products" than local "service"...
And thus the blood of africa is still flowing out to the occidental world...
URGENT BUSINESS PROPOSAL (Score:4, Funny)
Electronic colonization (Score:4, Insightful)
Like Richard Stallman said at the WSIS Tunis panel discussion 2005 [google.com]: This is electronic colonization, i.e. the Africans are supposed to pay for foreign products and remain ignorant and dependent.
I deal with Microsoft in Africa (Score:5, Informative)
LOLOLOLOLOL
I'm a manager at a /major/ East-African health-care organization based in Uganda.
Years ago (before I arrived) someone had a highly customized Microsoft Navision system put in for our HMS/ERP system.
If we want to modify anything more in-depth than what color a button is we have to call up a Microsoft Licensed Consultant who has a key-file on a USB stick that allows them access to the inner-workings of the system -- and pay them hourly.
This system is the beating fucking heart of our organization and we can't even make something a required field or modify the validation of an entry without calling these circus clowns up.
The default license allows access by 36 simultaneous users. Guess how much Microsoft Nairobi forces us to pay per-user when we want to add more? try EIGHT HUNDRED FUCKING DOLLARS PER SEAT -- AFTER DISCOUNT.
Want to store more information than we currently do? BUY MORE DATABASE TABLES.
Dr. Cheikh Modibo Diarra either has no idea what he's talking about or is an outright fucking liar, because Microsoft has nothing anywhere near a business model that works for Africa.
We can't wait to get off their system.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This assumes that you have the skills to correct the problem yourself. Otherwise you are still waiting for someone somewhere to fix the problem.
The choice is either pay for support to someone (either microsoft or redhat/IBM/other *nix vendor) or you get the software (open source or you buy it) and hope you do not have an issue. Many people think that if they pay for software they will get support from the vendor. This may or may not be true, depends on the software. With open source most people think that y
Re:Misleading statement (Score:4, Interesting)
And you're assuming that knowledge and ability are somehow static.
I find this particular line of logic particularly irksome. That's mostly because nearly every single thing I've learned about computers, I've learned under my own steam. There's no mystical Linux Club where knowledge of systems and how they work are magically and instantly conferred on members.
There is, however, a school of thought that encourages lifting oneself up by one's bootstraps, and which (handsomely) rewards curiousity and initiative.
And lest I be accused of arrogance toward those who haven't had the same education and opportunities as I've had, I should mention that I'm putting my money where my mouth is: I work full-time in the developing world, and over the last 5 years or so have watched Linux begin to flourish on desktops and servers in the country where I've taken up residence.
The hardest part of building acceptance for FOSS generally and Linux in particular has been getting people to move away from the perspective that working in IT consists of nothing more than learning a series of incantations to be performed when your Windows machine inevitably goes FUBAR.
It's taken time, and the work isn't nearly done yet, but I'm gratified by the knowledge that, of the young IT apprentices I've taken on over the years, nearly every single one of them holds a responsible professional position managing high-end equipment, a significant part of which is running (or running on) FOSS software. Not one of them had any formal computer training before I happened along. For most of them, their employment opportunities were effectively nil.
Based on my personal and professional experience, therefore, I have to conclude that your argument is specious, misleading and counter-productive.
Parent
Hey, be nice to Dr. Cheikh Modibo Diarra (Score:5, Funny)
Of course, my upfront costs keep mounting, but he assured me when he asked for my account numbers that the funds will shortly be directly deposited to my bank.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Yes, but not *just* spam. They will also get new friends with dead uncles!