The Secret Lives of Ubuntu and Debian Users 501
jammag points out a look at statistics from the Popularity Contest projects on Debian and Ubuntu. These projects track the download and upgrade habits of their respective distributions' users, revealing — no surprise here — that Ubuntu users are more likely to be newbies than Debian users. The numbers reveal, for instance, that 86 percent of Ubuntu machines use the proprietary NVidia driver, where only a mere sliver of Debian machines do. Likewise, Debian users are far more eclectic in their software choice, less likely to use any default options. The article concludes with a look at the limits of what conclusions can be drawn from statistics like these. "In general, Debian users seem more eclectic in their use of software than Ubuntu users, and less likely to use an application simply because it is included by default. Debian users also seem more likely to be concerned to maintain a free installation than Ubuntu users — a conclusion that is hardly surprising when you consider Debian's reputation for freedom, but is still interesting to see being supported by statistics. ... To what extent last week's figures are typical is uncertain. Very likely, studying the figures over a longer period would produce different results. Possibly, too, those who participate in the Popularity Contests are not typical users of either Ubuntu or Debian. "
Odd stats - (Score:4, Interesting)
"GNOME is installed on 85% of Ubuntu installations and 50% of Debian installations, and has been used recently by 78% of Ubuntu users and 55% of Debian users."
Does this mean that they track per user rather than per box?
I'd also be interested in architectures, does Ubuntu support anywhere near the same range?
I'm a bit of a die-hard debian user because for me it works well and doesn't try to hide settings and operations like ubuntu sometimes does. This is one of the things that put me off windows and I don't like it replicated on Linux in the name of ease of use. I also realise this puts me firmly in the "geek that likes to tinker" category.
Screw the statistics... (Score:1, Interesting)
Have you joined #ubuntu and #debian on irc.freenode.net? The former talks so much that my 24" screen can barely handle the message throughput.. kudos to those brave souls that give support in that channel. 50% of those questions are, why doesn't ubuntu work like windows.. :(
Recruitment (Score:5, Interesting)
Since 2009 is the Year of the Linux Desktop (!), the number of Ubuntu users is probably going to continue to grow. While this is great, these statistics show that an Ubuntu user is not (yet) as useful to the community as a Debian user.
It would be good if statistics like this could be used to start grooming the next generation of contributors to these projects. Just because they're n00bs (and not necessarily programmers) doesn't mean they can't be useful in reporting bugs, testing new features, amending documentation, suggesting UI improvements and so on.
Knowing what activities people engage in will help decide where to aim appeals for help and how to improve and facilitate contributions at the first level. The larger this group of low level helpers, the greater the number who can be converted into more serious contributors.
Gnome users (Score:5, Interesting)
The relatively low number of Debian [Gnome] users is probably explained by the fact that [...] users are more likely to choose one of the dozens of alternative desktops.
No, it's probably explained by Debian's heavier use in reliability-focused server environments where a desktop is a waste of resources.
Re:So wait a second... (Score:4, Interesting)
I use the proprietary ATI driver. /usr/local.
I have Gnome installed, but my desktop environment is e17, installed in
I must be a newbie.
Re:Odd stats - (Score:5, Interesting)
Debian *does* just work, for me, because I can see what's going on.
Ubuntu has hidden more stuff so that when it doesn't work it's hard to figure out. For me, a professional Software Engineer with a penchant for *nix.
I'm not missing any functionality either.
freedom? (Score:4, Interesting)
Using the NVidia driver gives me more freedom, not less. It gives me the freedom to run 3d apps, while the open source driver gives me no extra freedom as I have zero intention of fiddling with its source code.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Interesting)
Second that. I've been using Ubuntu for about 2 years, before that it was Debian. Frankly I haven't got time to piss about, I just want it working. I don't have a problem with binary only drivers like NVidia. I support the idea of free software as far as possible, but if it doesn't do the job, then I'm not going to go without.
Re:Recruitment (Score:4, Interesting)
Make no mistake getting people off of windows and onto linux is good for us all
Maybe in persuading 3rd parties to support Linux more explicitly, but simply using Linux does not make them productive members of the community.
they'll encourage linux developers to craft better interfaces rather than ones that will simply get you by with the more advanced users.
A good software product is useable by its target audience. In the past, the target audience has been either advanced users or other programmers. In this case, the user interfaces were often productive and intuitive, if not graphical. If the user base changes, the interface should change to fit the demographic, but that does not mean that the previous interface was inferior or bad. Personally, I still prefer command-line utilities, as they can easily be run from automated scripts.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Interesting)
These days there are a number of OSs derived from Debian and Ubuntu that should be considered. Mint is superior. Also Mepis, I believe is now based upon Debian.
I suspect that many Ubuntu users who try these lesser known derived distros would prefer them.
Re:Maybe they ought to change those options... (Score:2, Interesting)
Err ... no. First, using Debian is not mark of expertise.
Then, some people simply want to be different for sake of being different. Pwecious snowflake. To be apart from gray, group-think masses of dumb sheep that does not make choices. When confronted, making up hilarious points on how their choice was rational.
And among computer experts, those people are likely to use alternative OS for sake of not having Windows, Like Linux, and amongst those people, using Debian is certain fashion move as well. They won't run likes of plan9 or make their own distribution because *that* would require actual knowledge which takes too much time if you just want to make "I am different, adore me!" statement. They would play with packages alot thou. Using ORmail2.3.5 impresses people.
I bet they evolved from people whose first instinct on windows installed machine was to chance color scheme to "hod dog" and replace cursors and then diving in and changing every setting in control panels they can find.
Also, get out of my lawn, kids!
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:4, Interesting)
I love Linux and would still use a raw distribution if I really had to.
Debian is not "raw" in the least. In fact, when I did a fresh install of etch recently, I was honestly surprised at how easy the installation process had become (the last time I did a full reinstall was probably 2002 when I bought the machine that I was replacing).
I am not going to claim that I walked uphill both ways when I started with Linux but after looking at the differences in installing Debian in 2002 vs 2008, it certainly made Slackware's 1996 install and RedHat 5.2 for Alpha look like a fucking walk in the park.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:3, Interesting)
Debian is not "raw" in the least. In fact, when I did a fresh install of etch recently, I was honestly surprised at how easy the installation process had become (the last time I did a full reinstall was probably 2002 when I bought the machine that I was replacing).
I wasn't trying to say that modern Debian was raw, but rather that the polish of modern distros (including Debian) not only lowers the barrier to entry for Linux in general, but also is very important to people who are capable of the more advanced stuff.
In summary: so far, making Linux easier for newbies has also make it better for experts. This might sound obvious, but I don't think one necessarily follows from the other.
Re:All modern desktop distros are easy (Score:2, Interesting)
Seriously, why do people focus on Ubuntu?
Because most of the other distros don't make it easy to install the non-free and patent encumbered stuff.
With Ubuntu, I install it, it detects I have an Nvidia card and notifies me. Then I say "Yeah, install the resricted driver" and it just does and then the video card just works. If I hit a site that has a QuickTime movie, it downloads the open-source-but-patent-violating QuickTime codecs and then the media just plays just play. If I have, say, a Broadcom wireless adapter, it lets me know and then I say "Yeah, install the restricted driver" and it just does and then the wireless adapter just works.
Other distros don't work this way.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:3, Interesting)
Ubuntu won me over from Gentoo, which certainly has an image of being one of the more "hardcore" distros.
Why?
Ubuntu had nearly Debian-level stability, but new-ish packages, so it wasn't like the dunking-your-head-in-a-bucket-of-cold-water experience of going from bleeding-edge Gentoo to Debian Unstable or whatever. Everything was new enough that at least you wouldn't have to compile updated libraries to get some app from outside the repositories to build properly.
Ubuntu automated the stuff that I wanted to be automated, and pretty much nothing else. It even did a few things that I'd wanted to do in Gentoo but had never gotten around to doing because it was too much of a pain. At the same time, it stayed the hell out of my way when I wanted to do something manually, which is more than I can say for some other "user friendly" distros.
Ubuntu's default package set was smart. Concise, but not incomplete. The default applications were almost exactly the same ones I was using on Gentoo, minus a few development apps.
Dpkg and apt-get. I still like Portage better, but it's a close second. Portage is a 9 out of 10, dpkg/apt-get is an 8. Everything else is a 5 at best. Nearly as good as Portage, but no compiling (which I never cared about anyway)--awesome.
The only thing I really miss is the Gentoo runlevels system (there's a better name for it, but I can't recall at the moment) but then again I don't have to mess with that stuff very often in Ubuntu so it's not a big deal.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:3, Interesting)
boy, does this ever stink of astroturfing by you-know-who.
Re:All modern desktop distros are easy (Score:1, Interesting)
Seriously: when you google for something, and you start getting advertisements, you add the word "linux" to the search to remove the commercial products. When you do that, but get a bunch of noob postings to discussion boards, you can get rid of the chaft with "-ubuntu."
Aren't you glad you don't have to type "-$YOUR_DISTRO"?
Off by default (in Ubuntu at least) (Score:2, Interesting)
> Possibly, too, those who participate in the Popularity Contests are not typical users of either Ubuntu or Debian.
I don't know about Debian, but the Popularity Contest (listed in the Software Sources window as 'Submit statistical information') is turned off by default in Ubuntu, and I don't expect many people turn it on given people's wish for privacy. So indeed, I don't think the results will be from typical users.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:3, Interesting)
In summary: so far, making Linux easier for newbies has also make it better for experts. This might sound obvious, but I don't think one necessarily follows from the other.
It doesn't. Take a look at Windows 2K vs XP for instance, setting up a LAN with shared internet connection is, for someone who knows what he's doing, as trivial as it'd be on UNIX/Linux. But try doing the same on XP without all the goddamned tutorials and talking dogs driving you crazy. So it's commendable that Debian's changes have mostly been not only beneficial for the newbies, but also for us experts at the same time.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:2, Interesting)
Actually, Mepis was the first distro I tried. For whatever reason, no matter how much I (figuratively) banged my head against the wall to get it to work, I, a mere end-user, just couldn't. Ubuntu was my last shot at a Linux distro and it's been golden.
The more things change the more they stay the same (Score:5, Interesting)
But honestly, I think this is just what happens when popularity increases with anything. I remember when the majority of people on the Internet (if you would really call it that) were between intelligent and highly intelligent individuals discussing a wide range of topic (though usually leaning towards the nerdy side) in a civilized manner.
Going from telnet to web browsing changed everything! The number of people online was approaching a million! The number of servers you could connect to or 'sites' you could now 'browse to' was skyrocketing! People starting making their own web sites and hosting forums at home, and there were just tons of people all excited to be involved in this new medium, despite the fact they had no idea what they were doing.
And then AOL came along, and Geocities. Soon everyone had a web page for their cat, and flame wars seemed to be the thing in every chat room. It was just like the parlor [youtube.com] times a million! This was about the time I stopped going into chat rooms at all, because it was just intolerable.
But eventually we got slashdot, google, ebay, wikipedia, archieve.org, eff, findlaw, loc.gov, youtube, hulu, piratebay, thinkfree, change.gov and so many others both recently and over the years.
I miss the days when every person I knew that had a computer had taken it apart and put it back together many times, they all had some minimal programming skill, and nerdy groups of people would be going around to business or telling our non-nerd friends "you could do that so much better if you had a COMPUTER!", to which they would reply, "that stuff is for nerds, I am doing just fine with my typewriter". "There's nothing I can do with a computer I can't do on my typewriter", and "computers just make it more complicated and expensive".
There was no convincing them. You would try to explain, but they wouldn't listen.
Then one day they would come you you and be all like "Hey, guess what? I got one of those Pentium things! Isn't that cool!" and all you could do is smile and sigh. And after that, it was the endless phone calls for little things that you didn't mind, because it was exactly what you had been pushing for in the first place. But sometimes it made you wonder.
Soon, the round table discussions over new technologies in the library were replaced with sheep-dip seminars (thank you Andy Hunt), row after row of zombies watching someone explain what a mouse was for, and how to put things in the trash. Soon you had all these 'experts' saying that they knew more about computers than anyone because they had taken a class. Oh, the humanity...
So what a surprise that after all these years, we are still seeing the same type of revolution. Yes, I miss the 'Internet' when it was between 10,000 and 100,000 users, but those times are gone, and in the big picture, the new even more nerdy stuff is worth it.
They say that Linux userbase / marketshare (or whatever way Microsoft feels like measuring it one day to the next) is about 1%, but it is easy to see it is the top 1%. Maybe it is just me, but I don't see an even distribution be user base as a whole of computer experts between exclusive Linux users and exclusive Windows users. It is the same one percent 20+ years ago trying to get people to use computers because it was the futu
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:2, Interesting)
These days there are a number of OSs derived from Debian and Ubuntu that should be considered. Mint is superior. Also Mepis, I believe is now based upon Debian. I suspect that many Ubuntu users who try these lesser known derived distros would prefer them.
I've switch a lot of "average Windows users" over to Ubuntu over the past few years, and I've installed it on all kinds of hardware (servers, "media center" PCs with odd hardware setups, "legacy" machines, netbooks, and so on).
I tried the Mint liveCD out on an old Dell Latitude the other day, and I can say I was definitely impressed. Mint does take the work out of migrating Windows users to GNU/Linux, but it makes some questionable choices for the user and encourages what seems like Windows-like security (giving users easy access to root commands, discouraging the use of sudo).
Mint also automatically installed the proprietary nvidia drivers and enabled compiz, which could be considered pragmatic but I think is dangerous to freedom in the long term. Although I use proprietary drivers on some of my systems, I think it's a choice for users to make themselves. If distros that automatically install proprietary drivers gain a lot of popularity, there will be much less pressure for vendors to release FOSS drivers and there will also be less momentum behind the development of alternative FOSS drivers. I feel the same way about the software that's usually bundled with the ubuntu-restricted-extras metapackage.
Also, it may not be wise to automatically start compiz just because it's possible...I have some machines with graphics cards that can *just* handle GLX, but I wouldn't slow them down with compiz. But I know that they're not necessarily trying to cater to old machines.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:3, Interesting)
RMS doesn't use Debian because it's not free enough, as in it allows you to add the non-free repository.
RMS pushes a thoroughly non-free license (GFDL) with invariant parts which are uneditable, non-removable. They keep you from doing a lot of things like, say, printing a reference card or... using GFDLed snippets in GPL code!
So nyah, in comparison with Debian (not having any non-free code in Debian proper), what RMS gives you is less free (bad core documentation). He violates the Four Software Freedoms [gnu.org] he made himself -- to be exact, freedom 0 and freedom 3.
Debian users are getting old (Score:3, Interesting)
Many Debian users like to tweak their systems just for fun, not because it's useful. They like the feeling of control when they know everything that's installed. They like the feeling of understanding how everything fits in their systems. And that's good. It's fun and you learn a lot.
But these things about "ubuntu hiding things" just mean that some of them are becoming obsolete. They miss the times when Linux was simple: kernel, userland, X server, applications. All clearly separated, all easy to grasp. With all these "new" things like udev, hal, upstart ("how do they dare to remove /etc/inittab?!?!?") ... they feel they're losing control. They no longer know everything. So the first reaction is refusal: Ubuntu must be bad.
Ubuntu is great. I've used Debian for more than ten years, and I'm still using that for work. I love it: it works and it's rock solid (usually). It's well thought and sysadmin-friendly. I was a (bad) debian developer. But Ubuntu is good too. It works. And it's still Debian. All Debian goodies are there.
And if many people are switching to Ubuntu, if the level of Ubuntu users is not so "elite" like Debian users, that's a good sign. It's new blood.
We complain for years and years saying that Linux can be used by "normal users" (when, let's face it, we were pretty far from it), and now that it's becoming true, we are fearful of losing our aura of eliteness. We attack the ones that are achieving it because they're not "pure enough". What a band of jerks we are. How much insecurity lies in the bottom of the Linux community?
We can't live in our ivory tower of perfect freedom and simplicity forever. Get out a bit and talk to real people. Ubuntu is Debian for real people.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:3, Interesting)
"Those who would give up essential liberty for a video driver deserve neither liberty nor video drivers." -someone else's sig
All cheekiness aside, if you want to be stuck with shitty unsupportable binary-only drivers forever, by all means keep using nVidia. Every time you install that damn thing it tells them that you're willing to put up with their bullshit and please sir may I have another.
I'm not. I demand shit that works. Failing that, I demand to be able to find out why. If my shit doesn't work and I can't find out why... well, then no deal. I wouldn't buy a car with the hood welded shut either. Why do you tolerate being treated that way?