The Secret Lives of Ubuntu and Debian Users 501
jammag points out a look at statistics from the Popularity Contest projects on Debian and Ubuntu. These projects track the download and upgrade habits of their respective distributions' users, revealing — no surprise here — that Ubuntu users are more likely to be newbies than Debian users. The numbers reveal, for instance, that 86 percent of Ubuntu machines use the proprietary NVidia driver, where only a mere sliver of Debian machines do. Likewise, Debian users are far more eclectic in their software choice, less likely to use any default options. The article concludes with a look at the limits of what conclusions can be drawn from statistics like these. "In general, Debian users seem more eclectic in their use of software than Ubuntu users, and less likely to use an application simply because it is included by default. Debian users also seem more likely to be concerned to maintain a free installation than Ubuntu users — a conclusion that is hardly surprising when you consider Debian's reputation for freedom, but is still interesting to see being supported by statistics. ... To what extent last week's figures are typical is uncertain. Very likely, studying the figures over a longer period would produce different results. Possibly, too, those who participate in the Popularity Contests are not typical users of either Ubuntu or Debian. "
I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Insightful)
So wait a second... (Score:5, Insightful)
Users vs. Uses (Score:3, Insightful)
In my firm we've used Debian for 10 years or so for all our servers. Clearly the choice of packages is a big part of keeping the systems clean and secure, and the most exotic hardware issues were with RAID disks.
Contrast that with my last desktop install where a fresh Kubuntu can't do better than 800x600 until the Nvidia drivers were activated.
The main advantage of Ubuntu is the speed which which it adapts to new hardware, but non-free drivers is part of the price to pay for that. (Another part is the instability in new versions.)
Desktop vs. server? (Score:4, Insightful)
Tag this one obvious. (Score:5, Insightful)
I know when I install Debian, I don't even bother with any of the major metapackages. I just install a base system, and apt-get whatever I need. That way, I know everything that is on the machine, and it's all stuff I use. Of course, doing this in Ubuntu would defeat the whole point, which is to have a well managed set of applications preinstalled for you. So it seems obvious that Ubuntu users would use a lot more of the same software than Debian users.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Insightful)
Even though I won't use a sackcloth-and-ashes-free-only computer, those issues are important. "Pragmatism" in the short term is anything but in the long term. If effort isn't exerted to keep platforms from being closed and replacements developed for things that are closed but commonly used then eventually it will be others who dictate how you compute and what sort of computing is permissible. Myself, I prefer to own my own media and hardware and to connect (ethically) to whatever machines on the Internet I see fit, use whatever protocols I see fit, and adapt any device I own to any purpose that I might desire. Annoying as they may often be, we ignore the proponents of openness and freedom at our peril.
Maybe they ought to change those options... (Score:5, Insightful)
> Debian users are far more eclectic in their software choice, less likely to use any default options.
When most of your experienced users think your default options are crap and refuse to use any of them, perhaps it is a good time to change those defaults, eh?
Interesting note (Score:4, Insightful)
Cool to know that's where they are pulling their package ratings info. This has been tremendously useful in my family - I just tell the wife "I dunno, install the one with the most stars and see how it works for you." I'll have to install the Popularity Contest package so I can add to their data, even though I don't subscribe to idea of having a "contest" at all.
what? (Score:4, Insightful)
How does that classify a user as a newbie instead of just someone interested in playing games through WINE, or someone interested in graphics performance?
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:2, Insightful)
Update to the original story here [wkowtv.com].
Seriously, with all the attention this story has gotten, all sorts of normal people will not want anything to do with Linux now. Way to F'n go.
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Insightful)
Agreed. I've also been using Linux since the mid 90s. I think people underestimate how much even experienced users appreciate a slightly more polished and easy-to-user product.
I love Linux and would still use a raw distribution if I really had to. However, the fact that Ubuntu has an effective GUI, updates "just work" and that installing new software is so easy is a massive bonus. Now I can get on with actually getting my work done rather than dicking about with configuration files and Make for hours.
Re:Recruitment (Score:1, Insightful)
While this is great, these statistics show that an Ubuntu user is not (yet) as useful to the community as a Debian user.
sure they're useful, they'll encourage linux developers to craft better interfaces rather than ones that will simply get you by with the more advanced users. Make no mistake getting people off of windows and onto linux is good for us all, and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to get their heads out of their own behinds.
Who cares about binary drivers (Score:4, Insightful)
Regular people just want their computers to fucking work.
It's also why Apple keeps selling computers.
If you can't understand that, then you're clueless.
Re:Odd stats - (Score:4, Insightful)
I'd also be interested in architectures, does Ubuntu support anywhere near the same range?
I've got little experience with Debian, but can compare Ubuntu to Fedora and say that Ubuntu sacrifices bells and whistles that a "tinker" like yourself would prefer so that it can deliver ease-of-use. The most glaring difference that I've noticed is right at the very beginning while you're installing it... Fedora presents you with a list of hundreds of packages/application to install and Ubuntu (if I recall correctly) just sets you up with a system that's good for "most purposes" without giving you the same wide options.
As my choice for a computer that's doing anything besides web-browsing, word processing, picture editing, and music playing... I'd avoid Ubuntu. However, I'm proud to run Ubuntu on my laptop because that's all I use it for.
Re:So wait a second... (Score:1, Insightful)
No shit. How about, statistics show Ubuntu users are more likely to want their computer to work and not have to constantly fuck with its settings? I'm a 15-year linux "newbie" that prefers Ubuntu, thank you very much.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:2, Insightful)
"unscrupulous reporting" is a pretty good description of what the so-called journalist did.
Although a more accurate description would be amateur.
The "journalist" clearly didn't examine the facts before publishing.
The bit about "accidentally buying Ubuntu" just takes the cake...
Re:Odd stats - (Score:5, Insightful)
pppffftt
Why burden the end user at install time when you've got such a cool
package manager as apt-get or synaptic waiting for them on the other
side? You can literally start with the Debian net installer, use the
most barest of options and have a functioning system afterwards that
can easily add anything else you want.
You don't need an F-350 full of water bottles on the front lawn.
You've got indoor plumbing.
All modern desktop distros are easy (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Recruitment (Score:3, Insightful)
Just because they're n00bs (and not necessarily programmers) doesn't mean they can't be useful in reporting bugs, testing new features, amending documentation, suggesting UI improvements and so on.
I am a programmer and even I never bother with bug reports any more, especially with regard to usability enhancements. All that ever happens is some dev looks at it from a technical developer perspective and marks it INVALID-WONTFIX.
The reason Ubuntu has so many users is that the developers get given stuff to fix, not comment on why they think it is not a bug. Quite often software developers are not able to put themselves in the shoes of a user and see how inconvenient or annoying certain "features" are. In these circumstances it takes a senior manager of type to come in and say: "We pay you, go fix this." or to do a cost benefit analysis on forking the project simply to get an issue resolved.
The only example I can think of of the top of my head at work is the security warning that used to come up every time I double clicked on a file with the extension .asf and be told that I could not double click to open those files as they were actually of type .wmv. Clearly this was never a useful security warning as the two filetypes are interchangeable. Even if it was useful initially after a year or two everyone simply started ignoring those warnings entirely.
Linux will only succeed on the desktop if the people who create it learn to listen to users criticisms with a more open ear.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:3, Insightful)
Seriously, do you /really/ want to know what they do behind closed doors?
That's funny, don't get me wrong, it is.
But if Microsoft had published this kind of data on users downloading habits, this would have been published under YRO.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:3, Insightful)
Why? Because Dell doesn't exactly make it easy on you.
Anyone that bothered to fact check this story would see that right away.
Something like this should leave the random user knowing something
they didn't before, something meaningful rather than just being
sensational.
This is a key difference between journalism and trolling.
What would Murrow do with this story?
Re:I've been using linux since the mid nineties. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm an Ubuntu n00b (Score:2, Insightful)
And I've installed Ubuntu precisely _because_ it has pretty much everything pre-installed...
I find this "research" about as surprising as any investigation where you'd find that people who own a truck often need to transport stuff, and people who in stead own a smaller vehicle often also don't transport a lot of goodies. (We need to exclude Americans from this comparison).
*Yays* for preinstalled programs, and for the packagemanager with its limited options but ease of use :)
Re:Odd stats - (Score:3, Insightful)
Why burden the end user at install time when you've got such a cool package manager [...] [Debian net installer, most barest of options, easily add anything else you want.]
I'd guess that most people see waiting as an easy burden to shoulder--you read today's paper while doing it--while having to install everything in itty bitty increments and not knowing what to install is a much harder burden.
Given that Ubuntu is aimed at satisfying the needs and wants of "most people", I think Canonical made the right choice for Ubuntu.
By the way, the Debian project also made the right choice for Debian.
Re:Maybe they ought to change those options... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Maybe they ought to change those options... (Score:3, Insightful)
To what? If you have 100 users and 99 of those users change their defaults to one setting, yes, it should be adopted as the new default. But if you have them changing to 99 different defaults then what should you change it to? Most of the debian defaults I've found allow the package to 'work'.
Re:So wait a second... (Score:4, Insightful)
Using the proprietary nVidia driver makes you a "newbie"?
I think these statistics reflect adherence to the Debian's social contract [debian.org] more than number of noobs.
Debian users care most about using open source software, where Ubuntu users care most about what "just works."
Re:freedom? (Score:3, Insightful)
Using the NVidia driver gives me more freedom
Only in the short term, and it's detrimental for freedom the long term.
Re:freedom? (Score:3, Insightful)
It gives me the freedom to run 3d apps
No, it gives you the ability to (meaningfully) run certain apps. Your right and freedom to do so is not affected by your choice of driver.
while the open source driver gives me no extra freedom as I have zero intention of fiddling with its source code.
What you want to do is not the same as what you're allowed to do. You're not allowed all the four freedoms with the non-free nvidia driver, you are with the open source one. Just because you don't want to exercise the freedom you have doesn't mean you don't have it.
The nvidia driver is probably the better choice for you: by your own words, you'd rather run certain applications than be able to tinker with your video drivers. That's fine, go use what you want to use, that's none of my business.
But please don't confuse your concepts or try to redefine what freedom means. It's misleading and confusing [I'll give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming it's not deliberately so].
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:3, Insightful)
She doesn't know how to access Internet with Ubuntu but she has a Facebook account ?
Did I miss something ?
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sorry, I have not yet seen many smart new Linux user who is swithed from Windows to Ubuntu ditribution. I read three different Ubuntu forums (eng, fi, swe) and all the skilled Ubuntu users are mostly from other distributions who has learn things correctly.
Every day you can find out on typical comments of blogs, news on web or other kind sites where Ubuntu users are blaming other distributions, giving instructions to do sudo this and sudo that, marketing the "uber" package manager of _Ubuntu_ (they dont even always know it is from Debian) etc.
And when you point out to them the CoC (Code of Conduct) page of Ubuntu, they plame you to be a liar or n00b who should STFU.
There is BIG difference between Ubuntu and Debian users.
Debian users knows that "Free" on the "Free software" means Freedom but not the price.
Ubuntu users believes that "Free" on the "Free software" means no cost and rights to relicense copyrighted material as GPL without permission, because GPL is FREE".
You can go any almost any place to find out that mostly bad behavior conduction people are _ubuntu_ users.
It gives very terrible view of Ubuntu when the most comments what are coming from Ubuntu users, are totally wrong or idiotic. All my friends are in feeling that Ubuntu turns people to somekind zombies to be included army of Canonical and to be praise the Ubuntu.
Two years ago, you got gnome-look.org or kde-look.org sites for Gnome and KDE. Now you have more stuff to Ubuntu and Kubuntu. You are more easily finding a wallpapers or even the icon packs or themes to be build as Ubuntu DEB package than standard tar.gz package what could be used on Gnome desktop what ever Linux-distribution or other than Linux OS is used with Gnome.
If most newbies comes switch from Windows to Ubuntu. It is predictable that most idiotic users can be found from there. Because if someone speaks out the truth about stuff, you get answered as STFU because you might "hurt" someones knowledge by being too technical or accurate. Because the usage should be "easy" and "simple". It is good that you even can use "Distribution" word without being flamed as geek or nerd who does not understant that "Distribution == Operating System" so you should not say "Different distributions" but "Different Operating Systems".
When someone comes to computer site to ask help about Windows installation, soon there might me first Ubuntu user suggesting that he/she should install Ubuntu because the OS includes a great office package, is easier to use etc. And other Linux users and even Windows users are needed to help the first commenter to solve her/his problem with Windows.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:5, Insightful)
Do you really think no MS fanboy would have harassed her?
Hmm. My experience is that the MS fanboys are far less passionate about their choice than either the Linux or Mac fanboys. Perhaps it is the complacency of the mainstream?
You are correct that there are fanboys for just about everything, and I expect you are right that someone would have responded had she blamed Microsoft, but I doubt there would have been the same depth of disparagement and certainly not the same quantity. Fewer MS fans would have bothered to respond...
I use both Linux and Windows and like them both. I used Macs a very long time ago, but their price pushed me to Windows and then Linux (I'm talking about before Jobs left the first time...). I enjoy working with all three, but wouldn't consider myself a fan of any of them any more than I'm a fan of my television.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:4, Insightful)
Clearly the journalist what no tech expert, which obviously the Linux community has no patience for. So next time you're in getting your car fixed and you don't know what a lower control arm is, I hope they call you an idiot.
This was moderated "insightful"?
Maybe it's my Buddhist influence speaking, but personally, I think the world could learn more patience. The next time you're in getting your car fixed, and you don't know what a lower control arm is, I hope they try their best to be courteous and helpful, and try explaining what a lower control arm is to you (assuming this knowledge is even at all relevant to solving whatever problem your car is having).
Re:All modern desktop distros are easy (Score:3, Insightful)
On Xubuntu 8.10 at least, you drag it into the trash and it's moved there, then you empty the trash and it's gone, just as with a regular file.
Still, even if it didn't let you all you had to do would be to remove the read-only flag from the file before deleting it, just as with Windows, and you don't need a terminal for that. Don't overreact.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:3, Insightful)
No, it is not *required*. Get your facts right. I've got Verizon DSL
Me to, and you're right; it's not required. But they tell you that it is. You and I may say to ourselves, "Stupid Verizon; I know better." But Jane average? She'll just follow instructions. And if Step 1 says "You have to insert the CD," well, when she inserts the CD and it doesn't work, she'll give up.
Re:Do you really want to know? (Score:5, Insightful)
It isn't requred, but they *tell* you it is required. The problem I've found with family that I'd give Linux machines to is that they would just go out and buy software, hardware, and services without checking if they were compatible with Linux or consulting with me. There are many users that don't understand what an OS is, they think that there are "computer CDs" and that they work like DVDs (and work everywhere). Really, those users aren't wrong -- its the situation that is screwed up. We should have been using a standard interpreter years ago, such as Java. People can lament the Java implementations all they want, but it was a great idea.
Those same users, when they get a CD from Verizon telling them to put it in, to get their internet working, will do just that. If it doesn't work, they won't blame Verizon (who is rightly at fault), they'll blame their computer for "not working right". Surely, because to them "computer CDs" are like DVDs and will "just work" unless their computer is broken. I know that this happens to Windows users too on occasion, they'll buy programs that only work under MacOS or Linux -- this happens much more rarely than the other way around, of course.
Of course, readers of Slashdot will know *why* it doesn't work, and *why* the situation is as it is, but we really need to do something about this. There should be a trademark logo program that can be used to certify disks or procedures that are platform independent. Verizon should make it clear that Linux (and other) operating systems will work with their services, and provide ample instructions that will not confuse users that don't know what an "operating system" is.
Vendors really need to get on the ball and realize that Linux is getting on enough devices now that they *do* have to support it, and they can't make it a magic black art that only power users and greater can accomplish. Linux on the desktop won't be a success as long as our grandmothers get hung-up on when they say their computer has Linux running on it. Grandmothers won't know that they need to lie on the phone when they call technical support, they won't even know what lie to concoct, and they shouldn't have to lie.
The truth is that if you run Linux today, you need to know what you're doing or entrust management of your systems to someone that does -- not because Linux is difficult, but because vendors will make your life hell otherwise.
Re:So wait a second... (Score:2, Insightful)
"must be free" and "just do it for me".
If those aren't already options in the install GUI, they should be. Having a package manager for which you can set preferences to look for only free driver updates, etc. or automatically install whatever drivers it thinks you need (regardless of whether it's proprietary or not) would be nice, and it might help to keep things usable for newbies while still being flexible enough for more advanced users. Granted, advanced users would just do a command line install, but whatever.
As a side note, I see the disparities mentioned in TFS as a good thing, as it indicates more people are switching to Linux.
Disclaimer: I don't usually install Linux boxen, I just SSH into them.
Re:nvidia (Score:3, Insightful)
Trying to find drivers on some website, and running some installer hoping it won't clobber over files managed by apt/dpkg is not my idea of family fun.
"Trying to find drivers on some website" sucks? Where the hell did you find "apt-get install nvidia-kernel-2.6-amd64 nvidia-glx nvidia-settings"?
A non-power user at least has a shot at understanding one of those things.
Re:All modern desktop distros are easy (Score:4, Insightful)
Would you expect a novice driver to press the clutch before throwing a manual transmission into gear? Of course not. When you switch to a new system, there are things you will have to learn. Saying that Ubuntu isn't "ready for the desktop" because of situations like this is very much like saying a manual transmission isn't "ready for the road".
To some people "ready for the desktop" means "exactly like windows, even to the exclusion of those features that make Linux more secure". That's just not realistic.
Re:So wait a second... (Score:2, Insightful)
I will also say, it's gratifying to have the *option* to install a proprietary driver clearly presented, with a commentary about what "proprietary driver" actually means, and why / why not I should install this driver. Some will choose to use the nvidia driver, and some will not, but educating the end user about what their options are and what they mean is really a great feature in Ubuntu, and I think nicely bridges the gap between "must be free" and "just do it for me".
$.02
Neil
Totally, and I think Ubuntu's approach is a wiser one both to educate people and keep freedom within Linux. I've been using Linux for 11 years now, and it seems each and every year the FSF wants to take more and more freedom from the user, specifically their freedom of choice. A great example was when in 2006 Morton and some other GNU/FSF pundits made a very big push to ban proprietary kernel modules [slashdot.org] by making the kernel refuse to load binary kernel modules. Thankfully Torvalds squashed the idea and essentially said "over my dead body". There is nothing wrong or newbish about using proprietary kernel drivers. I don't get why so many people make it like they're about to die because nVidia and AMD/ATi don't release their driver code... which is probably full of trade secrets. They have to keep proprietary to keep competitive.
There are Debian admins and Ubuntu users (Score:2, Insightful)
pfft (Score:3, Insightful)