When Teachers Are Obstacles To Linux In Education 1589
jamie found this blog post up on the HeliOS Project, which brings Linux to school kids in Austin, TX. It makes very clear some of the obstacles that free software faces in the classroom. It seems a teacher came upon a student demonstrating Linux to other kids and handing out LiveCDs. The teacher confiscated the CDs and wrote an angry email to HeliOS's founder, Ken Starks: "Mr. Starks, I am sure you strongly believe in what you are doing but I cannot either support your efforts or allow them to happen in my classroom. At this point, I am not sure what you are doing is legal. No software is free and spreading that misconception is harmful. ... This is a world where Windows runs on virtually every computer and putting on a carnival show for an operating system is not helping these children at all. I am sure if you contacted Microsoft, they would be more than happy to supply you with copies of an older version of Windows and that way, your computers would actually be of service to those receiving them..." Starks pens an eloquent reply, which contains a factoid I have not seen mentioned before: "The fact that you seem to believe that Microsoft is the end all and be-all is actually funny in a sad sort of way. Then again, being a good NEA member, you would spout the Union line. Microsoft has pumped tens of millions of dollars into your union. Of course you are going to 'recommend' Microsoft Windows."
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Education dollars better spent (Score:1, Insightful)
Flabbergasted.. (Score:2, Insightful)
All I can say is wow... What a completly ignorant twat.
On another note ALL HAIL BILL
Ha-ha. (Score:4, Insightful)
Ignorance beyond words (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, but they don't go around confiscating discs, and writing strongly worded letters. This sounds like it actually came from Steve can-i-have-that-chair-for-a-minute Ballmer.
Is anyone else reminded of the religous teacher confiscating a biology book from a student, and writing a letter to their pro-evolution parents?
Don't blame the teacher ... (Score:5, Insightful)
The teacher has nothing to do with the NEA getting money from Microsoft. She's just a low-level drone who's only source of information was maybe an education tech conference she went to and the mainstream media.
A better letter would have pointed out that Linux is being used in industry, in the world's largest companies, the U.S government and so forth and that children should have the skills to compete in the workforce by learning Linux. The whole free software thing should also be explained in the letter throughly, perhaps with a page or two containing a complete idiots guide to the basics of the GPL, etc. Perhaps reprinted from C-Net or some other technology media source.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't think it's worth attributing the teacher's support of Windows to some kind of fanatical support of union directives.
I think in the anecdote in question you can attribute the whole incident to an ignorant teacher. Contrary to popular belief, ignorance is not spread through unions, it is most often spread through one's disinterest in self education. My guess is that educators are no less immune to this disinterest than any one else.
Oh dear god (Score:5, Insightful)
Was this real? The letter snippet reads as if the supposed teacher was ranting about drug use or some other evil of society. So much righteous indignation, so little understanding of the real world.
I pity the school system that relies on these characters to educate and "guide and discipline" any child.
What are the teachers teaching (Score:4, Insightful)
No software is free and spreading that misconception is harmful.
I can imagine a generation coming out of school believing that "free software" is somehow illegal or immoral. Nicely taught to pay the "computer tax" to Microsoft, which is the only solution.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Flabbergasted.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Take note of this, everyone. (Score:5, Insightful)
I was kind of surprised to hear of the reaction that the teacher had to a student handing out Linux disks, as I don't know anyone who would take personal offense to trying out that software. Almost reads like a joke, but then again there is Rule 36...
However, I was even more surprised by the response that was given to her claims. Did he honestly think he could be persuasive by being condescending, insulting and, well, just downright mean?? His points are valid, though I think one of them is pure opinion. (I don't think Linux was designed to "free people from Microsoft." I think that it was designed as an alternative to closed-source operating systems in general, which being "freed" from Microsoft Windows is a side effect.) Yet, if that teacher was being a bit harsh, Starks did nothing to quench that fire.
With all of that said, I think that Linux is gaining positive momentum in education and public offices. Naturally, it will be a slow transition, considering most IT departments are not too comfortable with the idea of switching all of their computer network to a Linux-based one (and with good reason). It's getting there, though.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:1, Insightful)
The question is how a retard like this can become a teacher in the first place?
wow! just wow! (Score:3, Insightful)
on another off topic note i listen to ham radio & pirate radio on a shortwave radio as a hobby, more often i hear ham radio operators mention Linux
An eloquent reply? Really? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:2, Insightful)
I had to RTFA now after you using "she" and saying that she had used it.
And yes, when you read the whole mail it's quite obvious it's just a troll, no-one can be that retarded, and there's no chance in hell she's actually used it but believe that it would be illegal.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
Starks didn't try and indoctrinate anybody. You're talking rubbish.
How would support from this dipshit have been lost (Score:2, Insightful)
This fuckwit of an arrogant opinionater troll-witch stole private property, libelled a legitimate company and slandered a child in her class.
And all because Linux must be illegal because free software cannot exist and anything trying to pass itself off as free must be illegal and stolen.
So how could ANY response short of a shagging from twelve hot pop stars would have made it possible to persuade her that she's wrong?
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:3, Insightful)
What a tool... (Score:5, Insightful)
Ok, the teacher is misinformed and here email is a bit terse. Still, it was a chance to educate someone and make a friend; instead he chose to pen a rude reply and escalate the battle to the school's administration.
I simply do not understand this attitude - FOSS advocates are trying to gain wider adoption of their software and ideas and yet seem to go out of their way to antagonize anyone who doesn't share their viewpoint.
This could come down to a basic question - what right does a teacher or school have to control student activities in the classroom. My guess is that, if push comes to shove, a court would give them broad latitude in such matters. The teacher has no idea what is on the disks; and the school would naturally be concerned about any lawsuits that might arise over that, so they have a legitimate interest in restricting such activities. All it takes is one CD-Rom with something objectionable to a parent or illegal to paint FOSS and it's supporters as somehow evil and a danger to kids. Not that that is right, but winning and losing these kinds of battles rarely hinges on what is right.
FOSS advocates should ask themselves why MS and Apple are successful in getting their products into schools and adopt their approach - working with teachers, teaching them how to use their products to further classroom activities; in short becoming a partner with them. I know a lot of teachers, and most of them just want to help their students learn, avoid hassles from parents and administrators, struggle with the myriad of laws and other things that impact their ability to teach and really care about the kids they teach. Sure, there are some who are useless but most are just trying to do a good job in a challenging environment.
You do not have to agree with or like the teacher's stance, but to further FOSS goals you need to understand it and determine the best way to overcome it. making an enemy is not, IMHO, the best way to further those goals.
I've found teachers open to FOSS if approached the right way. For example, explaining how OpenOffice/NeoOffice can be used for schoolwork by students so parents don't have to shell out cash for MS Office. Give them a disk, with written instructions on how to set it up to save in an MS format and you've made it easy for them to use and helped build credibility for FOSS
The problem is zealots see everything as a threat or challenge; and believe compromise and cooperation is selling out; and that any differing viewpoint or argument against their approach is either flamebait or a troll (as evidenced by /. moderations).
you can only teach what you know (Score:5, Insightful)
Rather than being saracstic in his reply, this guy should've offered to educate the teachers into what other options are out there. Instead he's just turned them off and made them more hostile to alternatives.
Since succeeding in the education system requires children to give the answer the examiners expect - rather than the one that is correct, by closing this teacher's mind to other possibilities the Linux guy has made sure that the teacher will not admit coursework or answers that involve non-MS products. A good opportunity to expand some horizons has been wasted.
[1] yes, yes, I know: yours was inspirational and a credit to the profession. Congratulations, you're in the top 0.5%.
Cygwin? (Score:2, Insightful)
It could be a troll, yes, but I don't think it's a given.
What if the "Linux" she had used was, say, Cygwin? If the letter isn't a troll, then it's quite clear that whatever it was she used, she didn't pay it a great deal of attention.
She sits down at a friend's computer, sees Cygwin running, asks what it is, and tunes out after about four seconds. Hears POSIX. Hears Unix. Hears Linux. Doesn't really care, minimizes Cygwin, sees the Windows desktop, and does what she came to. (For fun, I'll assume it's using Word to type a paper while her nerd-friend cleans Bonzi Buddy off her PC. Alternatively, she could be using Word while her friend replaces OS/2 with Windows on her PC, given her a permanent distaste for alternate OS's.)
Ten years later, she sees the kid passing out the disks, some old memories dust themselves off---and she draws her conclusions. "Linux" ran on top of Windows. This kid says his disks have everything you need, and you don't have to buy Windows. Alarm bells go off.
Her student's passing out software that to her mind must inherently include stolen Windows code, and it's not even software that's useful to schoolkids.
Lot of conjecture in this post, I admit, but I don't think it's impausible. People really do tend to think this way.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, blame the teacher ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Teachers are supposed to embody the spirit of learning, this one is deliberately ignorant.
You are a twit (Score:4, Insightful)
Did you even read the article? The disks in question are Live CDs that do not have any affect on anything installed on the computer.
Teacher's distributing ms crapware? (Score:1, Insightful)
I have a brother-in-law named Dave. One day Dave's daughter comes home and says: "look dad, my teacher gave me this free student edition of ms-office 2003." Not knowing any better Dave installs it on the family PC, and just accepts all the defaults.
Three months later, the trial period ends, and Dave can not access his outlook email. I tried an outlook backup, and uninstalling the crapware, and re-installing Dave's ms-office 2000 - it wouldn't work. I had to completely re-build Dave's PC. But, nothing could read outlook trial 2003 email. I had to install the crapware on another PC, read the old .pst file in, save the email in another format, then move the email to Dave's rebuilt PC, then rebuild the other computer. When msft tells us "try before you buy" they don't mean it to be an option.
Re:Teacher sounds like a dumb cow (Score:4, Insightful)
You could remove the "To Linux In" and the headline would be more accurate for this teacher:
"When Teachers Are Obstacles Education" ?
How not to reply to people (Score:5, Insightful)
The teacher was deeply wrong with her viewpoint but the best way to respond is to politely correct her and guide her to somewhere where she can read up more on it. That's likely to result in a much more lasting result.
Instead he goes on about Evil Microsoft conspiricy theories a stupid "Linux is better than windows in every single way" type rant. It's fine thinking one OS is better than the other but you're deluding yourself if you don't think there are things one OS does better than than the other (cue 'lol windows crashes better' replies).
You won't change people by belittling them and going on what frankly, would seem like crazed ravings to someone unfamiliar with OSS zealots.
Re:Take note of this, everyone. (Score:5, Insightful)
Please remember that when they're trying to teach, teachers are basically control freaks.
I'm not saying this to be derogatory, you understand, but when you're trying to get a bunch of kids who don't necessarily want to sit still and pay attention to listen to you, what other option is there?
That explains the teachers' reaction to the student handing out Linux disks. It'd probably be much the same whatever the student was handing out.
Regarding their reaction to the existence of Linux - well, there's no shortage of narrow-minded people in teaching, as in any walk of life.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:3, Insightful)
He could not be convinced that FOSS was legal and genuinely free. There had to be a catch. There had to be a law being broken.
He must have heard of IBM. Just mention that a large part of their business is based on FOSS.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:4, Insightful)
Ask him if medical theories are freely shared amongst doctors in order to foster improvement.
That kind of thing.
I've been a communist all these years? Fuck.
Re:How would support from this dipshit have been l (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't (usually) see complaints departments in stores do you? Even if the person handling the complaint is correct, if you respond to a customer in the way he talked to you, he'll never come back. What's worse, he'll tell all his friends and they'll think twice about shopping there.
A polite, friendly, smartly written letter correcting her will educate this teacher more than 100 ranting letters ever will. If you change her viewpoint, she'll start talking to other teachers about "this linux thing" and you'll spread positivity.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:1, Insightful)
Is anyone else reminded of the religous teacher confiscating a biology book from a student, and writing a letter to their pro-evolution parents?
The accurate term is normal parents.
Re:What a tool... (Score:2, Insightful)
Then why did she write the response in such an adversarial and defensive way? I agree that many people would like to learn new things, and are happy to do so when it will benefit them in their job (or in this case, for the benefit of the students). This 'teacher' doesn't strike me as one of those types.
I guess the overall better solution would have been to open up a line of communication, but when you have someone calling you a thief and a liar, it's kind of difficult to have a diplomatic response.
Perhaps the reason FOSS advocates tend to be terse in their responses is that they're sick of a huge majority of people pissing on what they're basically doing free of charge, on their own time. I speak from experience with this; dealing with such willfully ignorant people tends to wear you down after a while.
Re:Mod parent up (Score:3, Insightful)
People have a habbit of wanting to entrench themselves the more they feel oppressed or belittled and they'll look for allies to join them.
Re:How would support from this dipshit have been l (Score:5, Insightful)
And hence the reason that all successful IT companies have marketing and PR departments that do the talking...
Very rarely is social change made on the basis of its inherent rightness or wrongness. Usually social change comes about because charismatic leaders inspire others to adopt it. For every Thomas Jefferson you have an Adolf Hitler. One was clearly in the right and one was clearly in the wrong, but both were followed by many. Linux advocates won't change the world simply by being right.
Maybe this teacher is a lost cause. However, the harsh response will likely tick off not only the teacher but her 10 colleagues who might otherwise have been on the fence. The superintendent is also less likely to intervene since he'll feel like he's stuck in a war between two zealots.
If the response stuck to the facts and how linux can be used to the advantage of education, he'd have done better. He could have pointed to the many careers that use linux, and the fact that it freely and legally gives student access to many professional-quality tools (compilers, servers, math packages, scientific simulation software, etc). Its ability to run on older hardware could enable parents to pick up a cheap computer at a thrift store and get decent word/spreadsheet/etc capabilities out of it. He could point to many educational initiatives both in the US and abroad that make use of linux. He could also point out how the free software community cares greatly about copyright - they developed alternatives to commercial software precisely so that they wouldn't need to violate the law, and they also use copyright law to enforce their own legal rights.
I agree with many of his points, but not the degree to which they were stated. I don't think that bringing the NEA into this was particularly helpful either - as much as I hate the NEA I doubt they'd have all that much interest in mounting an official anti-MS-competitor campaign for a few million dollars. the NEA might allow MS to present at teacher educational forums on the dangers of software piracy, but that is probably about it.
When you communicate you should communicate for a purpose. When you communicate with an adversary you should communicate even more deliberately. That purpose generally shouldn't be to "vent" - communicate with your spouse or your pillow or something other than your entire world or the person you are angry with if you want to vent. Or type up an email to yourself and then delete it (do NOT populate the TO line in such emails - I've seen them accidentally sent far too often).
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
I've been in this situation before, and I just told them that *I* write FOSS, and invited them to ask me why.
There's clearly no catch, it's not my livelihood, I'm not benefiting directly, and yet I do it anyway. If they can understand why I do it, then tell them thousands of people operate similarly, there's SOME business involved to coordinate the bigger projects and make money in other ways, and these are the results.
ALL Teachers are Paragons of Virtue (myth) (Score:3, Insightful)
"Teachers sacrifice" "Teachers give of themselves" "Teachers cultivate minds" "Teachers are heroes" Just some of the myths about teachers that the media bombard us with.
Call it a profession or vocation if you want. Teaching is an occupation. A way to pull down a paycheck. A job. And many do their job very badly. Just as there are bad programmers, bad mechanics, bad doctors and bad ditch-diggers. Where did we get the impression that teachers are somehow immune to ignorance, bias or incompetence? In fact, you could make argument that incompetence in other professions is *_because_* of bad teachers.
Until.... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:2, Insightful)
Under the current system of software patents, no software is free. It's just that most patent holders haven't figured out what, if anything, to do about it.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
They shouldn't have taken your computer if they had no evidence you were doing anything wrong with it. I would have had those people responsible disciplined. Though I suppose a lot of naive school kids would probably be raised to accept authority and just submit. It's one of the reasons the RIAA wants copyright protection enforcement taught to children in school.
Re:What a tool... (Score:5, Insightful)
Badmouthing the NEA wasn't a good idea. However, overall he did what he should have. Escalating to the superintendent was completely appropriate.
That teacher was a fool.
Worse, she was a fool with authority and she threatened him.
Remember that fool Jerry Tuttle who threatened Centos because he couldn't understand the difference between a hacked webpage and a misconfigured server, even when it was explained to him?
Johnny Hughes was polite, even solved the fool's problem for him, and didn't get a thank you.
Don't waste time with fools.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't think it's worth attributing the teacher's support of Windows to some kind of fanatical support of union directives. From postal workers to teachers, truckers to plumbers, in my admittedly anecdotal experience I've found that the average professional has very little clue about his union's sources of funds and its goals.
this reminds of my school days....
Teachers are control freaks. This teacher felt they were losing control so he/she banned it. Get used it kid it gets worse as you get older. The trick is get hold of the power (money usually) then you can say f*ck you
You need to explain (Score:5, Insightful)
That there are two different kinds of free.
Surely an American can appreciate the concept of Freedom and the concept of Free Beer, and the distinction between them.
Never attribute to malice... (Score:5, Insightful)
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.
I doubt the teacher is spouting a union-sponsored line (although that is a fairly typical mindset). Instead, the teacher is most likely ignorant of Linux and FOSS in general. She's not, however, ignorant of piracy thanks to ads from folks like the BSA, MPAA, and the infamous RIAA. Thus, when she sees software being handed out on home-made discs, she assumes it's piracy. She's been conditioned to that response like the good union myrmidon she is.
There was a time when I'd be shocked at this level of idiocy in a government school, but no more. I'd have been more shocked had she understood and condoned what the student was doing.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
If he asks for the catch, tell him where the catch is.
When you improve the software even a tiny bit, you have to give it away for free too.
And when he says, the he can't or wont do that, give him the feeling that he's espescially clever, cause in this way, he games the system... Everyone likes evading a catch and get something for free... as long you give him the feeling that it's not free in the first place, cause then it would be worthless too.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:3, Insightful)
They shouldn't take it even if he did something wrong, why should they? Unless he was cracking some sys-admin passwords on the school network or something such.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
Ask him if he ever charged money when he helped friends out or his children's school. And if he didn't charge them, was his work substandard?
Common Belief: Free Means Toy... or Pirated (Score:5, Insightful)
The teacher's sentiments are common. Many, many people believe that any software that someone is willing to give away must be little more than a toy. Many of them will assume that Linux is pirated. (For that matter, I know more than a few people who insist my Mac is simply a toy, incapable of matching Windows in computing power.)
Remember, too, that for all the attention Linux gets in its little part of the world (people interested in tech), it remains almost unknown elsewhere. This teacher clearly has never heard of it.
That's not the teacher's fault. Those who want to evangelize Linux need to do much, much more work in the "real" world.
Teachers prepare students to exist and work in the world outside the school. In that world, Windows dominates. it is a simple fact that students will enter a workforce that expects them to know how to use Word and Excel.
The rant about the NEA was bush league and self-defeating. The teacher almost certainly has no knowledge of who contributes to the union, and Stark has no assurance that the teacher is an NEA member. Linux can't be sold by ideologues chanting anti-corporate mantras.
Re:She's not entirely wrong (Score:4, Insightful)
Your point applies to why the students should not be allowed to simply wipe Windows off the school computers and replace it with Linux, without permission from the school authorities responsible for managing the computers. Demonstrating that Linux is fully capable of running from a Live CD/DVD by booting that disk on a school PC may even be a policy violation (if the school authorities were smart enough to realize such a thing could even be done, which I highly doubt).
Mere possession of such disks by a student is in no way the kind of wrong thing the teacher makes it out to be.
If the teacher didn't want the student doing what he did, she should have told him (even if making it up on the fly) that school policy does not permit running an operating system on school computers that is not authorized by the school, and then told him he is not allowed to put those disks in the computer in the future. If she's wise (which I highly doubt), she would extend that dictate to cover USB keys and other external storage devices.
Instead, she confiscated the disks as if they were some form of piracy. I hope the kid's parents sue her and the AISD if she fails to give them back soon. In the mean time, as soon as we can track down this kid, or any of his friends, I'm sure he will get plenty of replacements.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:3, Insightful)
Tell him that there indeed is a catch and explain the restrictions as outlined in the GPL (or any other applicable license). It's just that the catch doesn't apply to him since he is not a developer.
Re:Who broke the law? (Score:3, Insightful)
Teachers have to have the right to confiscate property.
If that is true, then the laws need to be changed. Property should only be confiscated if it is being used in a dangerous or disruptive manner. Giving a teacher arbitrary and authoritarian rights only leads to abuse.
Some real opinions (Score:5, Insightful)
Speaking as a UK school ICT Technician / ICT Manager for 7 years...
1) Some/Most teacher's are stupid, even in their specialist subject
It's a gross generalisation, but even most IT teachers cannot understand licensing, copyright, installation, administration of network machines, IT best practices, simple programming etc. I have seen heads of IT in secondary schools that have less knowledge of computers than my own mother, who can just about turn on a Wii unsupervised. If you think I am exaggerating, I'm really not. Couple this with the fact that *real* IT teachers (those who have taken computing degrees, and not some "business *with* computing" degree) are fewer than you think, that those who are still current on their IT are even less, and then those who can actually teach *AND* still understand anything vaguely technical are rare, if not non-existent.
This applies from kindergarten up to a lot of universities - their theory is sound but their IT is actually run by a real Network Manager (who will be denigrated and earn half their money because they don't have a PGCE or other 1-year-extra course that enables them to teach officially). If it isn't run by a real techie, disaster ensues - I know - I used to charge by the hour to clear it up. If you want to pass ICT GCSE, ask an ICT teacher. If you want to know about anything other than Word or Powerpoint or, indeed, anything that might ever require you to click the Help button, don't ask an ICT teacher. Guess who they'll ask.
2) 99.9% of people have never heard of Linux, even if they use it everyday (Google).
In my time working in IT support/network management for schools, I have met precisely six other people at work who have *heard* of Linux, and precisely *one* who actually used it more than "Yeah, installed it once, it didn't play games". That one was a fellow IT Technician. (Additionally, I have met three people who used any browser other than IE at home). Bear in mind that the average school has at least 30 staff (part/full-time), that I've worked in LOTS of schools (freelance support for five years), that this includes IT departments at large secondary schools / Academies, that it includes the Borough ICT support teams, sales people who called me etc. and I think you start to get the scale of the problem.
Now consider that most of those schools had Cachepilots or similar Linux-based hardware, ran on external shared services that were mostly hosted on Linux, Squid, Apache etc., used Asus EEEPC's, and even in one case the entire school network operated off the back of proxy caching servers and firewalls which ran Linux and even the IT people didn't know it until it was pointed out to them.
3) Free stuff has two connotations to the uninitiated:
a) Argh! It's rubbish. Because everything free is rubbish.
b) There's a catch. (i.e. it's illegal, it forces you to do things, it reads your emails, etc.)
A previous (and very IT knowledgeable) IT Manager of mine, who used to manage mainframes in the financial sector for about 20 years, actively resisted me using Linux inside a school for months before I was allowed to bring in a couple of experimental projects I had built previously using it. Purely because it was "free" and therefore, no good. The "Free stuff isn't Microsoft" isn't a new phenomenon and it scares even the most technical of people who haven't tried it themselves.
4) In schools, nobody cares.
Educational software for Linux sucks. Completely. I've just started a job at a school where the head and bursar actually do *get* Linux and OSS and we were in instant, unanimous agreement on this while still in the interview. So, as far as most schools are concerned, it's not even worth touching. Yes, office apps are there, you can print, save, email, and all the usual. It's great for remote terminals, for getting basics done and for re-using old, cheap machines. But you're still having to buy new machines to run the fancy Windows content that you want because there isn't any Linux
Re:Oh dear god (Score:4, Insightful)
If you really want kids to get a good computer education, then become a teacher. I'm serious. It's time to stop complaining about the quality of education and get in the trenches and change it.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:1, Insightful)
I don't know where you are, but I'm thinking the US. I'm also thinking this "there's no such thing as a free lunch"-thinking is more deeply rooted in the US than here in Sweden/Finland. I might be wrong, of course.
Eloquent response my arse. (Score:5, Insightful)
The fact that you seem to believe that Microsoft is the end all and be-all is actually funny in a sad sort of way. Then again, being a good NEA member, you would spout the Union line.
unsupported claims
Microsoft has pumped tens of millions of dollars into your union.
and makes dubious inferences and another personal attack
Of course you are going to 'recommend' Microsoft Windows.
falls a long way short of being eloquent.
Just because you agree with someone's crude rant doesn't mean it's elegant.
Personally I'm more inclined to think the teacher is quite sincere. Ignorant, certainly, but there's no reason to put their attitude down to malice or even corruption.
After all to most people, including teachers, the most important thing is that it works with Windows/Office which means it has to be Windows/Office.
The ideals of Free and Open software are pretty much irrelevant to the vast majority of people. Why should they care that they could, if they wanted to, get the source code any more than we, as software developers, would care if we could get the schematics for the latest Intel chip. Where's the "Freedom" when it comes to hardware, beyond having drivers?
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree.
Its simply that most teachers are incredibly under educated. As a Volunteer It consultant for several public and private schools I can tell you that there is ONE thing that is the same across the board. If the subject is outside the studies of the teacher, they typically know absolutely nothing about it. AND they tend to come off as experts in everything because they have an advanced degree in education.
I had THREE teachers at different schools that were "handy" with computers and taught keyboarding tell me that I was setting up the network wrong. One told me that it's impossible to mix Mac and Windows machines on the same network. Another told me that I cant have all the servers in one place, they have to be as close to the computers that use them. Finally my favorite, "WHAT ARE YOU DOING? You cant have any bends in the network cable!"
These teachers are very under educated. There are some glimmering examples of very smart and very educated, but most are not. They do not spend any time studying or learning anything outside their core education needs. and Colleges in general are horrid at education of grads in computer usage and technology usage in general. I worked with an educator that has multiple masters degrees that refused to ever use a computer that was changed from his windows 95.
"I know 95! I'm not using anything else!" his classroom PC would be off, and he's using this old relic he brought in. Constantly asking to have it plugged into the school network.
He's one of my proofs that high level degrees do not make you smart. and yes, being stubborn = dumb.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah see, speaking as an old guy who can grok TANSTAAFL, all those things are supposed to be repaid in kind. You watch his house, he watches yours, you help each other dig out from blizzards and you each trim the hedges you share on both sides every other time.
It's how society works when people aren't being a**holes.
Re:You need to explain (Score:5, Insightful)
You are right, but gratis is much too high-falutin a word to use when you are trying to explain something. It makes you look like some sort of elitist.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the best teacher (actually professor) I ever had was from India and made lots of grammatical errors in his speech and writing. And yet I learned a lot from him. I strongly disagree with your prejudice that poor English disqualifies someone from being a teacher.
Re:Employing the narrow minded to widen minds . . (Score:3, Insightful)
I would suspect that most kids exposure to (school) operating systems would be similar to that which I see in our local libraries; you can point and click the applications that you need to write your essays and view white-listed content on the Internet. In other words I don't think it matters what operating systems children are exposed to because they will likely not have a chance to use them at any depth other than beginner level.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
I can understand a teacher confiscating the Linux CDs, Britney CDs, or whatever CDs, if the teenager was doing his "demonstration" during class hours. But then the teacher followed it up with a letter that indicates an Anti-linux prejudice and a Pro-microsoft bias, so the real motive is now clear. And unacceptable.
What's she going to confiscate next? A Bible? A Koran? A copy of the Libertarian News? Her job is to teach & keep order, not to censor freedom of information. As long as the teen is using his Linux, Bible, or LP News during his OWN time (like study hall), she has no business confiscating it.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:4, Insightful)
That's the key. Parents need to SMACK these teachers hard. You as a parent go in, scream to high hell at everyone involved. You demand that it be fixed and the teacher APOLOGIZE to the kid.
My dad di t hat when I go suspended for fighting. He came in and read the riot act to the Vice principal so loud I heard it in the hallway..
"You're lucky he did not kill the other kid. You've been happily letting that brat torment my son and other kids for over 2 years now. Do you even do anything at this school?"
I had caved in a locker with the schools biggest bully's head. Two teachers had to pull me off him as I was beating the hell out of the bastard.
After the incident, I was not suspended, but our school bully was sent to a different school after that.
Teachers and educators are NOT smart when it comes to anything outside their circle of study. I also have never met a non college Computer teacher that knew anything about computers and only taught from the books.
Religion! (Score:3, Insightful)
Stop pushing OSS / FOSS / Linux etc in the same way that religious people do. At least certain very large groups of religious people. Why do Linux have to be so fantastically morally superior all the time? Why do everyone who doesn't run Linux have to be unfaithful and evil and bad? I don't run Linux (actively) on any of my computers, am I a bad person somehow? Why push Linux as if you would go to hell unless all computers on earth runs it?
It's enough to burn a CD or DVD and offer to help with installation / usage. Make them dual boot. Show them an alternative and then let them make their own choice. That is freedom, that is choice. Which is far from the GNU/GPL is morally superior crap that just pisses me off. I personally prefer BSD that way.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:2, Insightful)
To really make an impact and help educate this teacher might I suggest seeing if your network admin or a computer science professor would write this woman a letter as well. I think having someone from her field write her a letter might have a bit more impact on her. I'd try to get them to include a live CD while they were at it.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Some real opinions (Score:2, Insightful)
That reminds me of my nephew's computer science teacher in high school. The buffoon assigned labs with the following grading structure: if you turned in what satisfied the requirements and it worked and it was commented well, you got a "C" for the lab. You got a higher grade if you added more "stuff." And it was very subjective on what the "stuff" was that would get you a higher grade.
It was all that I could do to keep from marching into that school and tell the teacher that if you add extra "stuff" in your programs in the real world, you get fired.
Sadly that experience pretty much ruined it for him as far as computer science goes. Now he's a lawyer. Pity.
DT
Perspectives.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Generally, education has gaps, particularly in technology. Not all is bad, it went in phases. In Junior high, they explicitly called me into the Library whenever the DOS computers acted weird to get me to fix it. However, in my first high school days, I was disciplined for 'harming' the school's computers. Some examples of what I did that got me banned from using their computers:
-Windows 3 displayed a blue screen, instructing to hit control-alt-delete. I did so. Evidently, their policy was to put an out-of-order sign and call the local computer company on a per-incident fee because that company told them those screens required such action.
-On their new Win95 computer, I opened a full-screen DOS window. They claimed I had deleted the OS and I barely had time to exit and show them it was still there before they called that company again to fix it.
-They had brand new deskjet printers that printed at minutes per page for simple text. I figured out their misconfiguration, and was called down for 'making the printers go too fast'. They said they were lucky they hadn't broken from going too fast and they called that company to 'fix' them back too slow (which they did all too readily, they knew how to exploit the ignorance).
For trying to develop and exercise my professional skillset of choice, I was actively precluded in instructing myself. My second high school refreshingly reverted to my junior high days of being explicitly called to assist the faculty.
As to Linux, I'm actually married to a teacher. Students were generally surprised to see Linux on the Desktop (didn't look like Mac or Windows) and the IT guy was happy to see a teacher using Linux. None of her peers would make this mistake.
All that said, the response was pretty dumb. don't be belligerent. You don't fix the problem by being an asshole. You provide education, links to the legal content of popular licenses and a layman's explanation. Provide reasonable motivations that lead to no-cost software development. Saying 'oh, MS bought you off' doesn't provide the requisite context to counter. Educational and other public institution contribution would be a good starting point, as it hits close to home. Corporate contribution in the name of marketing leverage, development costs (particularly for companies for whom the software is not their revenue source) and in order to obtain some government contracts would be another source perceived as both logical and quality. Finally, personal contributions for personal marketing (resume building) and hobbyist rounds out the major motivations. Mention companies like Dell, HP, and IBM doing open source to move hardware and services. Mention that even Microsoft invests in Novell and others due to their recognition of Linux as a legitimate market participant (assigning no value judgment to that, the statement is true regardless of whether you dislike or like the agreement). Mention that most supercomputers run the platform, many without paying explicitly for it.
You can craft a well-thought out, educational response that may actually spread in a positive way. Telling a teacher she is a bribed shill for MS is going to make her warn her peers in the teacher lounge more about this 'free' software rather than get her perhaps to discuss some interesting stuff she learned. You only have the get one teacher in a school interested enough to talk to get an entire school to at least basically understand Linux.
And what about Apple? (Score:3, Insightful)
Perhaps one should remind said teacher that it was but a couple of decades ago when Apple ruled the classroom. Microsoft puts out another "quality" product like Vista, they soon will be again. Apple has already started taking over the college campus.
Never before have I wanted to grab my Apple IIc by the handle and slap this teacher clean upside the head. Unbelievable level of ignorance, not only to FOSS, but to any other vendor (Apple) out there.
Re:Why Should Teacher Know or Care About Linux? (Score:5, Insightful)
Indeed. Believe it or not, I still get people, looking at my PowerBook G4 running Mac OS X 10.4, asking which version of Windows it is.
We're talking about a company that's over 25 years old with lots of publicity on the television and in newspapers.
And yet there is still people who still think Microsoft makes everything on the planet run, except for the Nintendos and the Playstations.
Don't be shocked that people never heard of this "Linux" thing.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:4, Insightful)
Not a good example... (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of people want to focus on high ideals as motivation for Free software, and that's just not easy for most people to believe. Most people who do contribute either would not be able (no time, contracts forbidding) to or wouldn't want to without other conditions being met.
Is listening to the radio free? Watching broadcast television? Reading an article excerpt on the front page of a newspaper in a vending machine? Free software represents to people and corporations a good advertising mechanism. There often are services or other products that cost money and augment them.
Was going to high-school free? Not in the strictest sense, as tax money funds it, but the same applies to many Free software. Institutions often contribute software open-source in order to best serve the public trust. Given the nebulous nature of the funding (all taxpayers), open source is most often a best-fit model to reciprocate that investment in that specific scope.
If a repairman had a hard time with a particular bolt, and lent you a wrench and asked you to hold the nut as he tried to turn the bolt, would he charge you excess for access to the wrench? Of course not, he isn't running a tool rental business, it just happens in the course of his actual job. This sort of incidental work is common in the technology world. A company needs an email server. They aren't going to hire an army of developers to write from scratch, and they might not buy a commercial solution. They'll have their administrator download an Open Source email server and that administrator has no motivation to keep required code changes private. On the other hand, getting local modifications accepted upstream absolves them of maintenance efforts on a local patchset.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
...I would stop paying school taxes to this non-free district.
Good luck with that. Schools are generally funded through property taxes, usually collected at the county level. The county doesn't give a crap what you think of the schools, they just want their money. Trying to avoid property taxes in protest of school policies is like trying to avoid federal income taxes in protest of federal farm subsidies.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
This attitude is common with the older generation who aren't used to the net. "Free" rings alarm bells and this is an issue I rarely hear mention of when people talk about the problems linux has spreading.
Maybe this analogy might work.
Your neighbor has a garden where he grows all sorts of vegetables with seeds that he gathered from friends or he saved from previous crops. So his cost to do the garden is essentially nothing. He grows the garden because he likes growing the garden. When he gives away the vegetables, is he breaking the law or scamming ?
No. He isn't. The same thing with free software. A lot of people write software because they LIKE IT. And they aren't doing it for profit (although that's nice sometimes), they do it for love of writing software to serve a purpose.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:2, Insightful)
Who do they think they are, vigilantes?
Haven't been in a high school recently, have you? Every teacher is cop, judge and jury, and accused always equals guilty.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:4, Insightful)
...when you read the whole mail it's quite obvious it's just a troll, no-one can be that retarded, and there's no chance in hell she's actually used it but believe that it would be illegal.
Where I work, in the second largest school district in the country (and also arguably the worst one), they'll hire anyone with a heartbeat and a teaching cert. I have met teachers exactly that stupid, and worse. I'm astounded they can find their room day after day, that their pants are on right side out, and that they know which end of the dry erase pen to use on the board. And yet there they are, teaching kids.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
Then the same applies to free software. Very few free software programmers would put out anything if they knew up front that no one would contribute code back, or ideas, or any sign of appreciation. Most free software is simply from coders scratching each others backs.
Re:Innovation in education... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Some real opinions (Score:3, Insightful)
Have you checked my post at all? This is one of those "distro that targets education" LiveCD's that doesn't actually do anything educational at all (no more than Slackware with a handful of free apps from the web, which is in the range of any competent technician, let's say) but claims to be educational because it has TuxPaint and an adding program. It's also not suitable for deployment in a multi-user environment and is extremely admin-unfriendly (i.e. gives kids ways to break things / bypass things that you don't want them to ever have) without a second thought.
OpenOffice.org, Dia, Scribus, GanttProject, FreeMind, PDF Creator, Sumatra PDF
(Bog-standard office-app fare available to anyone already. Nobody uses it in education any more than they use it anywhere else. And to be honest, there are staff/student mixtures of software here - kids generally aren't going to use FreeMind willingly, for example - which suggest that these people don't even seperate the two distinct and vital categories of user.)
Firefox, Thunderbird, Pidgin, RSSOwl
(Seriously? You're going to put these into a networked environment and just let kids run them? IM and external email is banned in every school I've worked in - Firefox, etc. don't have any sort of functionality that lets you disable certain features for certain groups easily. You get kids who write Word macros that compromise the network to let them into Myspace past the filters - an open, difficult-to-restrict Browser/IM suite is just asking for trouble).
GIMP, GIMP animation, Inkscape, Blender, Tuxpaint
(Wow - one extreme to the other - GIMP to TuxPaint. I've use Tuxpaint in some primary schools. They complain that it doesn't fulfill certain categories of their curriculum and last time I updated it, it wiped out the only interesting special effects that the younger kids would use in it. And I wouldn't want to teach GIMP *AT ALL* to children/young adults of any age. Hell, I used it once to try and do a GIF animation and gave up because a freeware bit of Linux command-line software did it better and more simply).
VLC ("for playing DVD's"... Just broken MPEG licensing restrictions unless you pay the MPEG LA seperately? This sort of thing doesn't go down well in schools).
Audacity (already use it... the kids can't get the hang of it at all and have little need to ever use it anyway)
Avidemux (last time I used this, it blew *my* mind, just doing a simple edit/conversion. Kids will never use this, anyway, staff will make the IT guys do anything along these lines and the IT guys have better tools at their disposal anyway).
Nasa Worldwind, GraphCalc, Guido Van Robot, CarMetal, Celestia, Stellarium
(Standard freeware fare, no matter what OS, and not that useful / well used.).
Maxima (I quote *University* standard computer algebra system - Tuxpaint and university software... what the hell is this distro supposed to be targetting?)
***Games***
(Seriously? Schools + games don't mix, even if they have a "educational" [inverted commas deliberate] stance... FreeCiv isn't going to teach the kids history, any more than Wii Sports makes them an athlete).
It's the same as a million others of its kind. Useless. Ubuntu or similar distros actually have more and better software with a million times the control and admin-ability built-in. This is "OSS for Schools", it's "OSS with education in the name". It's *worthless* to kids, *worthless* to teaching staff, *worthless* to the IT guys who work in schools and *worthless* to the school as a whole. Anyone who wants this stuff has already got it, whether on Windows or Linux. It doesn't bring anything new or special to the table and actually makes several rather dubious additions. I've missed some of the lines from the website's contents out but where's the actual *software* for kids, for instance? Where are the admin tools? Where's the seperation between staff and student? Where's the capabilities that any school actually wants? Nowhere.
Don't get me wrong, this isn't OSS's fault - It's hard to make educational software, rather than just "kids software". Enormously hard. Which is why OSS has almost none.
Re:Take note of this, everyone. (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not saying this to be derogatory, you understand, but when you're trying to get a bunch of kids who don't necessarily want to sit still and pay attention to listen to you, what other option is there?
Make your lessons interesting. Some of my teachers had an authoritarian attitude. Some never had a problem with class control. These two sets only had a very small overlap. The teachers who got the best behaviour were the ones who made paying attention to their lessons more interesting than talking to your friend, and who encouraged active participation in their classes.
The 'learning should be fun' attitude gets a lot of flack on Slashdot, but learning is fun - it takes a special sort of skill to make it boring.
Re:Why Should Teacher Know or Care About Linux? (Score:4, Insightful)
So, then, we need to teach Linux in schools because one in one-thousand students might once apply for a job as a Linux admin?
That's a speciality.
It's interesting to see you are dreaming of the day when you can talk people into abandoning Word and adopting a clone of Word. What's the point, besides the differing development and distribution models? Why should someone who is happy with Word and doesn't care about free software use Open Office?
Here's the thing: You support Linux for a lot of reasons that most people simple do not, and will not, care about. There's nothing wrong with your reasons, but it is obvious that's not enough to sell Linux to mainstream users.
Re:You need to explain (Score:1, Insightful)
um we're talking about FOSSies here...of course they are elitest.
FOSS = Software Barn Raising (Score:5, Insightful)
(Yet another analogy)
Ask him if he remembers the days when people would show up to build a neighbor's barn without getting paid. Why did they do it? Well, some did it because someday they'd need a barn raised. Others did it because it was "just being neighborly."
Well, FOSS is a "barn" that everyone gets to use. And the "catch" at least with GPL, is that you can't sell a community raised "barn" to other people, you have to give it away.
But there are still a couple ways for barn builders to make money. Some people don't like to clean their own barn so there are maintenance contracts. Some people want custom barns, so they hire people to modify the barn. Some people will make things that work with the barn, like silos, and they sell the silo while giving away the barn.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:4, Insightful)
But then the teacher followed it up with a letter that indicates an Anti-linux prejudice and a Pro-microsoft bias, so the real motive is now clear.
The letter indicates ignorance, and an ignorance that is sadly very widespread.
On the wider subject of confiscation, a child's property is always subject to the veto of the responsible adult, and at school, that responsible adult is the teacher. Can a parent be taken to court for confiscating their child's property? No, and neither should a teacher. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis [wikipedia.org]
Don't be Suprised (Score:3, Insightful)
All I can say is, there's not reason to be surprised.
I had to fight a suspension my sophomore year fore downloading open source software because the software was "proprietary." (It was, in fact, an open source project released under the GPL.) Fortunately for me, I'm stubborn and was a constant pain in their ass until they finally dropped the suspension. Others aren't so lucky.
But please, don't simply write off the school system as a helpless mess full of incompetencies. Some of us are still stuck here, and some direction from members of industry is the only way we're going to receive a meaningful education. Email the administration at a local school and offer to come up and help start/continue a programming/whatever club after school. It's an hour every couple weeks I can guarantee you won't regret, and we'll really appreciate it.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm not benefiting directly
Sure you are. You're learning. You're gaining valuable experience. You're becoming a better team player. Learning how to deal with end-users. Perhaps you're aquiring certain management skills. Most of all, you're having fun.
Make no mistake, if you didn't feel that it was a worthwhile experience, you wouldn't be doing it. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Re:How would support from this dipshit have been l (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes. For instance, one imprisoned innocents and forced them to work all their lives as slave labour, while the other... er...
The above should be +10 insightful (Score:4, Insightful)
From many years of repairing id10t errors,
I'd say the porn sites and scammers are slowly training our users for us.
I don't think they are getting the full view,
they are just becoming jaded.
users in the late 80's and 90's were more willing to try anything to save some money.
Now it must be a scam.
Interesting to see the polarisation here (Score:4, Insightful)
It's interesting to see how polarised people's comments are in this thread. Some think the reply should have been kind and constructive, trying to correct misinformation. Others think she's beyond hope and should have the book thrown at her. For what it's worth, I fall somewhere in the middle.
I agree with the parent post that there is no need for ranting and being rude. It is perfectly possible to explain that the teacher was mistaken about free software not existing, by giving popular real world examples, and to point out politely that in fact it is her disinformation that is the harmful thing to spread here. I suggest that it might be better to focus any such feedback on the concept of free-as-in-no-money software, since this is easy for non-technical people to understand. In any case, freeware has been around for as long as there have been computers, long before the GPL and such came along and tried to claim words like "free" for their own purposes, so there is no need to get into the political/ethical side of things.
On the other hand, she didn't just object to Linux. She accused the children in her care of breaking the law, threatened a completely innocent third party, and confiscated property without good cause. There is no excuse for that kind of behaviour from anyone, much less a teacher in a position of trust. Given the poor attitude she exhibited, formally reprimanding her (and requiring her to give back whatever she confiscated) is entirely appropriate.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
"There's so such thing as a free lunch! Either it's stolen or they'll be cheating you somehow"
That's the #1 thing wrong with American society today. The priests of mammon have convinced the worshipers of our national religion (via their media outlets) that "free" equals "worthless".
How worthless is a sunrise? Air? A baby's smile? A hug?
But to the religion of money worship, the idol of fools, whose altar is the bank and whose priest is the banker (and who is really remembered at Christmas; not the man who said "it is as easy for a rich man to enter heaven as it is for a camel to go through a needle's eye") money isn't is tool but the be-all and end-all.
We do not live in a secular society. First Amendment be damned, we indeed have a national religion that trumps Judism, Hinduism, Mormonism, Bhuddism, Christianity, Islam, and all other religions. Our government leaders are all worshipers of money, and our laws and society reflect that fact.
"Fuck Obama, fuck that motherfucker. This is fucking valuable and I'm not giving it away for free" says Illinois Governor Rod Blago on the value of a US Senate seat. He is a prime example of our country's fine money worshiping statesmen.
This attitude is common with the older generation who aren't used to the net.
Age has nothing to do with it. The net has nothing to do with it.
As to "there's no such thing as a free lunch" is taken as an absolute, but as an absolute it is transparently false. Did you ever pay for the lunch your mother gave you? Have you never had a friend treat you to lunch? have you never eaten an apple off a tree, or picked a tomato from your backyard?
The saying means that if a salesman offers to buy your lunch, hold on to your wallet.
"Money doesn't grow on trees"
Yes it does. Ask the Sunkist corporation - every penny they make grows on trees.
Re:Why Should Teacher Know or Care About Linux? (Score:2, Insightful)
You missed the OP's point entirely. He was taught and well drilled on concepts common to all Word Processors and windowing systems. He was able to ace a test on Office 2003 without touching it because he understands how word processing works on a higher level than a recipe book approach to MS Office. I'm the same way. I often help people out with software I've never used because I tend to have a high level understanding of the job they are trying to accomplish and need only find the appropriate UI or items in the help that pertain.
What usually happens once I suss out how to help the user is that they get out a Post-It note and start creating what amounts to a recipe for accomplishing that task. I call such people "brittle users" because very small changes in software or procedure suffice to break such people.
The OP is advocating imparting a better level of understanding on how to use computers rather than turning our schools and colleges into vo-eds for MS products.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:4, Insightful)
Ask him if the conversation you are having is free, or if he is stealing it from you, or are you stealing it from him.
Then softly hint that not everything in life has a price tag, and there is a group of computer enthusiasts that want to put the fun back into computing. They think it's too expensive to have any fun any more, and they hope others will start having fun by not just providing the software, but by providing free tools to build your own.
Then tell him that this loosely formed group of people tend to come and go like members in a rotary club or elk's lodge, but the software remains. Since it is free it will never go away, since it's been polished for a decade most of the software is better than most companies can afford to build.
You're not 100% being accurate, not because you are lying, you're just omitting the details. Often when people approach a topic, they start talking about GNU, the history of UNIX, the battles against Microsoft, etc. There's a time and place for those conversations, but they disregard your audience; this man needs to be convinced that free things can exist without exploitation of a company.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:5, Insightful)
There's another argument that your donation line opens up.
You could say that the developers are donating the software for free to anyone who wants it, because they feel that everyone will be better off that way.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm using metric.
And I don't consider just barely getting below zero degC as cold.
Who cares? I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about people who do find 0 degrees Celsius cold, or even 10 degrees Celsius. It's stupid and sadistic to make children suffer no matter what you may consider to be cold. Though yes I'll admit, I've dealt with a lot of ignorant people who think being uncomfortable or even in pain is somehow noble or healthy.
I've even talked to people here on Slashdot that said playing dangerous sports that's likely to break bones is good, and they were proud of the fact that they had broken their bones when they were children. I'm not sure if they are just being Trolls or if they're as bizarre and stupid as they appear.
From someone who used to work in a school district (Score:3, Insightful)
... I can tell you they have a right to be paranoid.
1. The BSA have been real assholes and love to double dip on software installations on computers that are in storage and not even in use at various school districts. THey will try to charge us for software students are holding because its on school grounds.
THey even have training on this and piracy.
2. Teachers can get into hot water if students hack and load unauthorized sofware or hacking into school computers.
3. Students are there to learn and not to use alternative operating systems or anything that is not in the districts circulumn is not allowed to be taught. With No CHild Left Behind they have to move very very fast in order to raise test scores and the pressure is huge and its only about reading, writing, and math as this is how the school makes money now. COmputer education is not on the standardized tests so its not taught that much or at all anymore.
Schools are not the same as universities. Basically they are dictatorships because the students can not be trusted yet as they are not adults and its about control in order to create a learning environment.
CDs are great but I would want the principal to decide to pass them out and not put the burden on the teachers if a student loads the software and the school is found liable. The teacher does not know whats on those cds and should not be in a position to care.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:3, Insightful)
I personally donate software I write because I've built a career off of open source and can't think of a better way to "give back" to the community then to give away what I write.
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:4, Insightful)
Is anyone else reminded of the religous teacher confiscating a biology book from a student, and writing a letter to their pro-evolution parents?
Or equally, a secular teacher confiscating a student's Bible and telling them it's against the law for them to bring that to school. (Frankly, I've never heard of a teacher in this day and time confiscating a biology text, but I've read plenty of stories of the latter.)
But I think this has less to do with a religious zealot for Microsoft, but someone who has been brainwashed by the BSA, the RIAA and all those stories of pirated software. The fact that she doesn't believe ANY software is free, shows a gross ignorance of computers and software in general. She probably has only basic knowledge skills in Microsoft Office, but has no doubt had it drummed into her at teacher seminars regarding the evil of downloaded software, legal ramifications, viruses and other fear mongering.
I doubt this teacher has touched Linux with a 10-foot pole--at college or any other place or she wouldn't question the legality issue. (Funny: Substitute the word "pot" for "Linux [discs]" in the article for a laugh.)
While there are many good teachers out there, there are also a lot who are dumb as a box of rocks and twice as ignorant. These are the ones who don't want children to learn how to think or analyze things on their own, but just parrot back what they're told. (The teacher herself show little analytical ability.)
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:2, Insightful)
...this man needs to be convinced that free things can exist without exploitation of a company.
I agree, obviously.
Just pointing out how sad that quote is - especially since it is true of so many people...
Re:You need to explain (Score:3, Insightful)
That's fair enough. Although not very many Americans travel outside the US.
That's fair enough. Although not very many Europeans travel outside Europe. Not very many Asians travel outside of Asia. Not very many Africans...oh, HELL, you get the point.
On the whole, most people lack the funds to be world travelers.
Sorry, but stupid people don't react this way (Score:3, Insightful)
I've tried, in the past, dealing with stupid people via the "polite and correct" method. Yes, in a couple occasions, when they're not COMPLETELY clueless, it'll work.
These rare occasions are the exception, rather than the rule.
Unfortunately, those firmly entrenched in their idiocies cannot have their views "corrected". At that point, the best you can hope for is the "smack across the nose" approach to set up a pain-aversion response in them. This way, when they go to open their mouths and remove all doubt, the mere memory of the last "smack" they got for "yapping where they know naught" will usually cause them a moment or two of hesitation (and in some cases, actual amelioration) of their unacceptable behavior.
Re:Who broke the law? (Score:3, Insightful)
Any activity in the classroom that isn't part of the teachers plan is disruptive.
That doesn't make sense. What is the teacher's plan?
Do you think it is possible to give a demonstration of Linux and had out CDs in class and not disruptive?
Yes of course.
I mean really think about it.
OK, done.
So yeas she had every right to ask him to stop and take the CDs.
Incorrect.
Re:Capitalist ideology. I have a similar story. (Score:4, Insightful)
I was suspended for writing software and sharing it with my friends. My own source code. The administration of my school told myself and my parents in no uncertain terms that I was breaking the law by writing software and giving it to others, and they were having none of it on school property.
What might have been a fun ploy: The next time a teacher assigned a writing task, you should have written it, and then refused to turn it in until the teacher paid you $10. After all, writing is something that writers do for a living, and the school suspended you for giving away what you'd written. It's clearly also illegal for you to give your English teacher something you wrote (in competition with commercial writers) unless you were paid for it.
It'd be fun to see how they reacted to this. Their obvious argument is that the English teacher is trying to teach you to write. But it should be equally obvious that programmers need to learn to write software, since it's a difficult task. If it's proper for students to learn to write English in school, why isn't it also proper for students to learn to write java or python in school?
This argument would be interesting, because it gets right to the point. That school's administration was actively suppressing attempts to learn to write software. This is directly contrary to why schools exist. They should be teaching programming just like they should be teaching, say, woodworking or auto shop classes. By punishing a student for trying to learn something that's useful in the job market, they have seriously interfered with their students' education. Writing coherently in both human and computer languages is important, and schools should be teaching both.
Re:Why does everyone fucking talk like this (Score:3, Insightful)
Considering that we killed more people firebombing Tokyo than we did with both atom bombs, and the firebombing of Tokyo didn't convince Japan to surrender, I doubt that using the atom bomb in the desert would have accomplished much.
Especially given that we had only the two bombs. Blow one off in a nice, symbolic way, and we only have one left. If the Japanese look at our nice symbolic gesture and ignore it (the way they did the firebombing of Tokyo), then we're left with popping our last bomb on a single city, and hoping that that convinces them (while doing less damage than the firebombing of Tokyo did).
After that, of course, we invade. Which results in hundreds of thousands of American dead, and millions of Japanese dead. Lose, lose, if you ask me.
Re:Never explain by conspiracy . . . (Score:4, Insightful)
yes, i think the situation at each school is different--at the college level, at least. at UIUC we mostly had Sun/Solaris (technically not FOSS, i know) machines for CS students, though i think we may have had Windows machines in the library. i imagine any university with a robust CS program would have some Unix/Linux systems available to students.
however, most primary schools, junior highs and high schools seem to use Macs or Windows PCs. it's really unfortunate too. if anything, public schools should promote the use of FOSS as it doesn't impose a financial burden on students/parents. the school themselves would save a lot of money too by not having to pay for software licenses, not having to subscribe to AV software, and generally having less malware-related maintenance to do.
i also think that public institutions should remain vendor-neutral whenever possible, and that means not promoting a particular company's commercial software. which is why it's so vital for public schools and government agencies to use open standards & formats.
lastly, exposing students to the idea of FOSS is also beneficial in and of itself. it encourages a spirit of generosity, altruism and community, in addition to fostering openness, cooperation & collaboration. plus, FOSS developers are excellent role-models. not only do they possess and demonstrate the above virtues, but they're also driven by a true passion for programming, which is the reason they donate their time to open source projects. i think that's a positive attitude worth cultivating in students. whether a student decides to pursue a career in open or closed-source development (or any other type of career for that matter), they should be encouraged to follow their interests and do something that they truly enjoy and believe in rather than being motivated purely by financial gain.
Re:Not a good example... (Score:5, Insightful)
I hate to be pedantic, but it can't. It's really tautological; information is entirely non-physical and therefore fundamentally can not be a physical good. It can have physical manifestations--you can write it down on a piece of paper, in which case you have a piece of paper with information on it being a physical good--but that doesn't turn the information itself into a physical good.
Perhaps you meant to say that information is a commodity; or rather, simply a good. That would be a position on stronger foundations, but also one that many here would strongly disagree with (myself included). The disagreement in this case, however, is on ethical grounds, whereas I would say disagreement with the claim that information can be a physical good is ontological.
And before you accuse me of splitting hairs, I think it's fair to say that the difference between physical and non-physical goods is marked (e.g. how does one take possession of a non-physical good by force?).
Re:Let's cut the conspiracy theory (Score:3, Insightful)
When you improve the software even a tiny bit, you have to give it away for free too.
And yet again, a slashdot user falsely equates "free software" to "software licensed under the GPL or a similar license".
Re:What are the teachers teaching (Score:4, Insightful)
"No software is free and speading that misconception is harmful"
well...it's half right...
Re:I think she's had a flashback (Score:3, Insightful)
Instead of reacting against the teacher, we could be constructive and suggest a polite friendly education session with the teacher. She would probably became a strong advocate of FOSS.
Re:Never explain by conspiracy . . . (Score:5, Insightful)
it's really unfortunate too. if anything, public schools should promote the use of FOSS as it doesn't impose a financial burden on students/parents. the school themselves would save a lot of money too by not having to pay for software licenses, not having to subscribe to AV software, and generally having less malware-related maintenance to do.
I don't disagree with your post in principle, but Microsoft gets around a lot of this by charging next to nothing for educational licenses. It's their way of making certain that the next generation grows up using Microsoft software and helps to continue the market dominance.
It's like the Traveling Knot demonstration (Score:5, Insightful)
-but that doesn't turn the information itself into a physical good.
A good example of this is the Traveling Knot.
Take a piece of twine, and attach it to a rope. Attach the other end of the rope to a piece of thin chain.
Now tie a simple overhand knot into the twine. Work the knot across the length of the combined assembly. The same knot is expressed in twine, then rope, then chain. It's the same knot, but it's proven to be independent of the medium.
The knot itself is only a curve. It requires some medium to manifest, but is not directly tied to that medium. You can draw a number of conclusions from this simple relationship, such as (a) the knot requires a medium to express itself in a tangible way, that (b) it isn't tied (sorry) to any particular medium, (c) that it's primarily information, and (d) that it can traverse (be copied) across a medium while leaving it effectively unchanged.
This means the knot is definitely not a physical good, although a knotted string can be. I guess I should add (d) that in general, the properties underlying an apparently simple, tangible thing are often highly complex and non-intuitive.
Re:From someone who used to work in a school distr (Score:3, Insightful)
Students are there to learn and not to use alternative operating systems or anything that is not in the districts circulumn is not allowed to be taught.
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. God forbid the kids are allowed, you know, to learn stuff on their own.
Linux in Ed is 1/2 a generation away... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Never explain by conspiracy . . . (Score:3, Insightful)
Primary and secondary schools don't teach people about computers they teach them to use computers.
But that's the problem. It's exactly backwards. If you teach somebody about computers, they can pretty much teach themselves how to use them in practical application. Primary schools should be starting with fundamental concepts, not middle-management or office-drone routines and habits.
It doesn't work backwards, either. Teaching somebody how to use Word doesn't teach them much about the fundamentals of computing.