Quebec Govt Sued For Ignoring Free Software 388
Mathieu Lutfy writes "The CBC is reporting that 'Quebec's open-source software association is suing the provincial government, saying it is giving preferential treatment to Microsoft Corp. by buying the company's products rather than using free alternatives. ... Government buyers are using an exception in provincial law that allows them to buy directly from a proprietary vendor when there are no options available, but Facil said that loophole is being abused and goes against other legal requirements to buy locally.' The group also has a press release in English."
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:5, Interesting)
special needs and government (Score:3, Interesting)
As an expat canadian I wasn't aware of any such law but I was from Ontario perhaps they have a different law in Quebec. Anyways, fair competition only seems to make sense to me. Seems rather odd for a open source software organization to fight this fight though. Unless they represent for profit service companies I don't think they'll be able to prove any loss in court so the case could get thrown out on that grounds. They probably would have been better off getting a bunch of citizens to do a class action as they are ones that have a calculatable loss.
That said even if they loss the case, if it seems plausible to the court it might put the fear of God into the government (in the incarnation of a penguin no doubt) to at least consider open source and be prepared to justify their choosing MS anyways if that is what they do.
P.S. Just a general question why does /. put a space between the second and third paragraph for me not the first and second? I'm using the same flags everywhere else, double "bracketted p". Used to work fine before the new interface came out.
Re:Tech support. (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, it's really just a way for them to legally cook their books. While they never provide support* on any of their consumer products, they're still allowed to have a ton of unearned revenue since they only recognize 1/12th of the purchase price each month, or however long you're supported for. Assuming it's one year and a copy of Windows is $300 (I was at Staples today, and apparently it is at least for some version of XP), that means that after a month, they've got $25 of earned revenue and $275 of unearned revenue on the books. Basically, it fucks with the numbers and makes them look richer than they really are.
Of course this isn't at all specific to Microsoft - most companies that provide some sort of support contract do the same (Best Buy extended warranties? Oh yeah). I'd suggest they abuse it a bit more than most, but what do you expect?
*you know what I mean here - I'm sure there's the odd instance of it happening, but by and large the only time you get them on the phone is for an activation problem.
Re:Tech support. (Score:5, Interesting)
Depends on the IT guy's skills in explaining things - or, indeed, 'selling' the open-source solutions. Obviously I'm generalizing here, but most IT people aren't overly business-savvy, so they're often of little help when it comes to explaining why X solution is better than Y. Management doesn't care that CrapSoftwareY is talking to a set of cobbled-together Access tables where DecentSoftwareX functions off of a proper relational database unless the IT guy evaluating the software can explain the BUSINESS benefits of one over the other (and "users won't end up going batshit insane over file locking when trying to hit stupidfile.mdb over a samba share" won't cut it).
Open source guys can evangelize all they want, but if they really want to see adoption, they'll need to sell it. Not via cold calls, but at least throw some copy online that the IT staff can use when they're pitching it against whatever half-assed proprietary product that's backed by a sales department. And let me tell you, MS has a damn good sales department. /used to work in software sales, and outselling open-source is trivially easy for those reasons
Re:Tech support. (Score:2, Interesting)
Time to relive the glory days of high school...
Well, you know your public school's IT is bad when a kid gets in trouble for sending a message to every school computer through netsend.
The school's solution? Forbid the kid from using computers for the rest of the year, instead of disabling the netsend service.
Ah, school administrators, how we love thee...
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:5, Interesting)
Naturally, preferences and documents are saved on the client.
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:5, Interesting)
could create thousands of jobs
I'm a little fuzzy on the details from TFA but... what exactly would these jobs entail? I mean, if some govt. office is running MS Office now and have 100 employees, switching to OpenOffice would create 100 openings more? Or what?
Sounds to me like an emotional argument rather than something based on fact.
Re:En francais (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:5, Interesting)
Right now money is being spent on licenses. This money goes out of the province (indeed out of the country) to a company that sells the software. The money is then either reinvested into building the next upgrade, a new products, used for corporate overhead or designated as "profit".
The TFA notes that the amount of money spent on software in the 6 months from February to June was 25 million dollars.
If free software could be used to replace the proprietary software, then the money could be:
1) used for other government programs
2) used for training
3) used for local support
4) used for enhancing the software for new features
5) used for lining the wallets of local entrepreneurs.
But in these cases the money stays local. Since the government almost always spends all the money that it has, in all cases except for #5 the result is that the money ends up as salaries for other employees. And since this is money over and above money that they are already spending on salaries, it means new jobs.
If we work out the numbers, let's say we give the greedy entrepreneurs a million dollars. Then let's say that the other uses result in something close to 20% for equipment and capital costs.
This leaves about 20 million dollars. At a loaded
labour rate of 100,000 dollars a years (which is generous given that we've already taken out 4 million for equipment and capital costs), this gives us 200 new jobs.
So you are right, "thousands" of new jobs is probably not realistic. But if they can really reduce the outgo of software licensing money to foreign companies, it is not an exaggeration to say that hundreds of jobs would be the result.
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:5, Interesting)
Ok, I'm not Canadian, but this applies to everyone when their local government is pissing away money for no good reason.
WTF?! Do you even following politics?
Business is greatest influence force in politics.
This is classical form of corruption: business makes a undertable deal with local politicians so that they buy their products. The statue that all procurement deals have to be public and open to competition - is the most often ignored statue. (Also popular (in 3rd world) are preferential investments, but they are quite hard to hide and rarely happen in developed countries.)
This is essentially how politicians make money. Or you thought that they simply do their thing out of pure altruism and patriotism? [Sarcasm intended.]
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:2, Interesting)
Unfortunately, at the school where my kids go, the physical network is a complete mess (network cables running under doors and such) because the IT admin is a job that rotates between all teachers every year, none of whom have any real idea.
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:3, Interesting)
That we have an IT industry at all is testament to pupils doing individual study at home and then going to University; the education system through the eighties and nineties was a massive disadvantage to our economy. If someone had pulled their finger out in 1985, who knows, Google or Yahoo may have been British...
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:3, Interesting)
I love Quebec, but when it comes to politics, I hang my head. For example, you cannot even put up a poster in english. The stop signs say "arret", french for stop. In France, they say "stop".
From a foreign Frenchspeaking point of view. There are Frenchspeaking orthodoxes using French words almost forgotten on the other side of the Atlantic and a quite funny French with English words. Sometimes the mix is incredible you feel like speaking to a XVIIth person working for a hi-tech marketing department :-).
But I would go back any day :-). Great people, great country, for frenchspeaking people, there are "our" americans ;-).
Re:You Linux nerds disgust me (Score:2, Interesting)
I use Ubuntu on my laptop at College (BCIT) and whenever I have to print something, I just use OpenOffice Portable [portableapps.com] which I have on a USB key.
For those that don't want to use up 80MB on their USB key, there is also AbiWord Portable at 6MB for text documents.
PortableApps [portableapps.com] are invaluable if you need to use programs temporarily on windows machines.
Re:special needs and government (Score:5, Interesting)
When time or special circumstance doesn't allow bids, there certainly needs to be a detailed report on the reasons one vendor was chosen over another. Someone needs to put his ass on the line and say "Symphony, StarOffice, Openoffice.org, and Gnome Office don't meet our needs" for reasons a, b, and c. When an accountant comes back to audit the department, he'll back those up or pay the price.
In theory you are correct however that is not the way Government departments work. In Australia we have a taxation year between 1st July to the 30th June and at the beginning of the tax year most Government departments receive a budget allocation. It would be a very courageous IT manager that could go to his/her department head and say we can slash our budget by upto say 60% by choosing open software such as Open Office and the savings could be spent on upgrading the IT infrastructure.
What normally happens in the above scenario is the upgrade never happens because there are few people in authority that will sanction this since they perceive that the old hardware is good enough because you normally can extend the life of the current equipment with open software and the IT managers budget is slashed. Of course when the time comes to replace the ageing equipment the IT manger is accused of overspending.
Most IT managers are well aware (or should be aware) of this double standard and to keep their jobs and credibility take the easy way and buy Microsoft products since all senior department heads know about Microsoft and appear quite amenable to a three or four year hardware and possibly software update cycle even though in the long term it is much more expensive, however this can be easily and consistently budgeted for with only an acceptable increase per year.
Actually it is very easy for IT department heads to justify proprietary software over open software since they only have to point to many Microsoft and so called unbiased web sites that show Microsoft software has a much better Total Cost of Ownership than open software. The "How to Lie with Statistics" technique.
Do I think this is right? I don't but that is Government business politics for you.
There's more than corruption (Score:0, Interesting)
Governments don't like Open Source software because it doesn't allow to easily hide eavesdropping trojans. That won't likely be the case with canadians, but a good set of western governments are constantly spying on ther citizen, and publicly available source code would make it more difficult, or nearly impossible with tech savy users.
No, there's no anti malware, personal firewall, even an external Linux box configured as such, that will catch a Windows trojan reading data from your disks then phoning home on an encrypted channel disguised as system information data upload to get better matching updates or the like.
Open Source is the only way to clean and trustworthy code, and a community of many eyes checking that Source is the only way to keep it that way.
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:2, Interesting)
A school's job is to educate. When you walk into a business, the chances that it uses Microsoft are much higher than Open Office. Why not train students to use the software they are most likely to encounter?
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:4, Interesting)
you've never managed a incredibly botched Active Directory setup.
9 times out of 10 the only real way to fix it is to wipe the servers and start fresh. at least with linux I can change all the settings without reinstalling the entire freaking server OS and all it's apps.
AD is not fun when it's borked.
Re:You Linux nerds disgust me (Score:3, Interesting)
You're using a word processor for 20,000 word reports? I really suggest you learn LaTeX - there's a steep learning curve at the start, but the long-term time savings are incredible.
I wrote the interim documents for my final year undergraduate project in StarOffice, and eventually bit the bullet and learned the basics of LaTeX for my final report. Even though the final report was around four times as long, I spent a lot less time worrying about presentation issues than I had on either interim document. For my PhD thesis I used LaTeX from the start, but with a proper build system (recursive makefiles, generating graphs with GNUplot, exporting PDFs of images with little scripts, and storing each chapter in a separate file). For my book I used a slightly modified version of this same build system, with a little OmniOutline script that created the skeleton from an outline.
Microsoft - The new IBM (Score:4, Interesting)
Whenever I put myself on the line for a Linux box (server, desktop or otherwise), I always know it's going to have out-perform (in whatever metric is important to the person considering it) the competing Microsoft option by a factor of two to be considered equal.
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:3, Interesting)
Because thinking employees add more to a company than human automatons.
Yes they do. But practically no one is interested in actually thinking, so we have to expect them to turn out as automatons until proven otherwise.
Then the message is inconsistent.
Every class and school policy, all the way through college (and my school was top 20) penalized me for independent thought.
The sad thing is this isn't the school's problem. If businesses made it clear through their hiring practices that they don't care about numbers or a cookie-cutter mentality this wouldn't be an issue..
Yet every interview in the professional sector i've attended has had a masked message of "we want a cookie-cutter attitude", and 60-70% of posted jobs to the campus career page set minimum GPA's or demand transcripts.
Keep tying employment to numbers which depend heavily on how well you suck up to an administration and faculty who demand rigidly automated behavior, and don't be surprised when you get... rigidly automated behavior.
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:4, Interesting)
I am going to assert that Open Source software has not previously been successfully deployed as an enterprise solution to a large government's IT infrastructure. In other words, it is a big fat risk. One of the first rules of engineering is to minimize and mitigate risks.
The first couple of governments that shift to Open Source will be blazing an expensive trail to deal with interoperability and all the minor "glitches" that come up along the way. With any luck, they will also DOCUMENT their journey so it can be repeated by other governments without such huge expenses.
And as to what can be done with $25 Million dollars that TFA says was spent on software during the first half of the year (assuming that government's can get past the 'growing pains' effect mentioned above that the early adopters will face)... I would like to see that the savings be allocated to fund city improvement projects to beautify the urban landscape. Build parks, improve roads, and erect attractive low-income housing buildings. I guess that is covered by #1 (used for other government programs), but nothing would be better for the local citizens than having a city which is invested in keeping the standard of living for all its citizens high.
In light of that, when I noticed that my local government (the state of Massachusetts) was considering an Open Source agenda, I sent them my support and feedback [metaphrast.com].
It's about CYA, Gov/MS deals, and code-ophobia (Score:3, Interesting)
I work in a government office (I bet you didn't see that one coming!) and I'm always suggesting (F)OSS alternatives to the expensive proprietary commercial crap everyone loves. The problem is that the other guys in my IT department, and in some cases any higher-ups who end up having a say in it, are terrified of it because (in their opinion):
- When something goes wrong, it's time to play the blame game, and if they can't call up a large corporation and bitch they don't feel that their ass is covered. This is always the #1 reason I get for not using (F)OSS. It seems that the "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" mentality still lingers.
- The idea of having to edit config files if things go wrong is discomforting. The idea of having to work with some code is terrifying. They're Plug Play & Forget kind of people, but they can't get past the AAHH SCARY CONFIG FILES AND COMMAND LINES stage to see the Plug Play & Forget nirvana they've been missing out on. Mind you, in my experience, the chances of something going wrong with (F)OSS tends to be equal or lower than with commercial software, but everyone feels safer in a nice walled garden where everything is designed to play nice *rolls eyes.* I cannot stress enough how much the other IT guys are deathly afraid of code (including text config files), even an ex-programmer! The very thought of having to possibly touch code makes them look at each other in sheer dread. They think I have the worst IT dept. job as a full-time codemonkey, but it's the best IMO.
- Making employees re-learn how to use software is considered unacceptable (Since everyone's been trained to use MS software from birth), even though some of these apps have GUIs that are hard to tell from their commercial equivalents. Well Vista's going to be forced on us eventually so the joke's on them!
And most annoying of all...
- Governments usually have deals with MS (I don't currently understand the business mumbo-jumbo going on there), so the software's already paid for and is basically free to government offices. This takes away the cost incentive of switching to Free / inexpensive OSS. Plus new PCs usually come with Windows and you don't have an option to get a cheaper PC with no software. Cost incentive lost again.
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:5, Interesting)
Finally, there's the fundamental assumption at the general level here which is fully out of place. Trade promotes efficiency and specialization in an ideal environment.
You were doing so well until your tangent. Here's the real final flaw in his argument:
Using your own natural resources when it's much cheaper to buy similar quality commodities from elsewhere is dumb. With software, there's no such inherent geographical bias. I'm unaware of any fundamental reason why a programmer in Quebec is less intelligent or capable than a programmer in Redmond, so I see no reason for Quebec to export their money to Redmond to get an item they could otherwise get locally.
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:4, Interesting)
If a government body wants to save costs, saying "it will create thousands of jobs" isn't exactly a good thing. Amazingly enough when people get jobs, they expect to be paid.
I knew it was familiar..
The launch of Windows Vista next year will be directly responsible for creating more than 50,000 IT jobs in six large European countries, and will lead to a flood of economic benefits for European companies, according to a Microsoft-funded IDC study released on Thursday.
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39283327,00.htm [zdnet.co.uk]
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:2, Interesting)
Basically, server with P4 or better and 1-2GB ram is more than enough server for class of 30. Either buy thin clients or re-use former thick-clients (strip out all drives). Thin clients then only need 300-400Mhz, 128-256MB Ram, and maybe USB port for student's flash drive data.
Centrally manage server software. Auto software update is handled via Ubuntu already across the network (OS plus Open Office etc) - popup icon "do you want to update?" even.
bliss.
Re:Don't waste my money! (Score:5, Interesting)
> I am going to assert that Open Source software has not previously been successfully deployed as an enterprise solution
> to a large government's IT infrastructure.
And you would be wrong. In 2000 I was the lone wolf howling in the wilderness. Today there probably isn't an agency in our state's government that doesn't have a Linux box here or there. The main state webserver is now running it, the state library has been there for years. The school board in my parish is totally penetrated in the backend as is the parish to the north. I contract for our parish and know one of the IT guys to the north so I can speak first hand about those.... but we aren't alone.
That said, the desktop is a case of fighting the FUD amongst the teachers. I really don't think students would care, but most people don't realize that the government schools are designed for and run for the sole benefit of the teachers. Students are just there to justify the whole game. So until we find a way to get the teachers to buy in the desktop belongs to Microsoft forever, and teachers (as a group) don't DO anything unless they have absolutely no option. So unless we hit a budget crunch so hard it becomes a case of Windows or RIFs that bite deeply enough to get teachers they will veto anything that would require even an hour of retraining. And again, for those who don't know better, that isn't possible because teachers are the absolute last place cuts are made. They would discontinue the use of computers in schools entirely, RIF the whole IT budget, eliminate building maintaince and stop buying textbooks before they allowed one teacher to lose out on their annual cost of living increase.