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Comments: 446 +-   SCO's McBride Testifies "Linux Is a copy of UNIX" on Friday May 02 2008, @08:39AM

Posted by kdawson on Friday May 02 2008, @08:39AM
from the can-you-spell-perjury dept.
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eldavojohn writes "Here's a short update on the Novell Vs. SCO case we've been following. Our good friend Darl McBride made some interesting comments in court yesterday. He stated (under oath): 'Many Linux contributors were originally UNIX developers... We have evidence System V is in Linux... When you go to the bookstore and look in the UNIX section, there's books on "How to Program UNIX" but when you go to the Linux section and look for "How to Program Linux" you're not gonna find it, because it doesn't exist. Linux is a copy of UNIX, there is no difference [between them]." This flies directly in the face of what SCO found in extensive investigations in 2002 and contradicts what SCO Senior Vice President Chris Sontag had just finished testifying earlier that day (testimony that McBride did not hear)."
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  • by IHawkMike (564552) on Friday May 02 2008, @08:41AM (#23273658)
    Unfolds chair. Grabs popcorn.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Friday May 02 2008, @08:42AM (#23273686)
      Not Steve Balmer's chair I hope.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      God, is this Darl McBride still alive and kicking? You'd think he would have found another job by now. I can't believe that after having essentially bankrupted his company with these ruinous lawsuits, he continues to attract naive investors who keep propping him up. It's like that guy who's running Zimbabwe into the ground--just go already.

      Linux is NOT Unix, there's never been shown to be any shared code, and SCO lost the battle years ago. It seems that once the lawyers took over SCO, it became just a l
      • by doti (966971) on Friday May 02 2008, @09:25AM (#23274274) Homepage

        Linux is NOT Unix.
        You got it wrong. It's GNU that is not Unix.
      • by E IS mC(Square) (721736) on Friday May 02 2008, @10:17AM (#23275110) Journal
        >> Linux is NOT Unix.
        Only 20%. See this proof - http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Image:SCO_proof.png [uncyclopedia.org]
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        Linux is NOT Unix

        You're right. It isn't. It is, however, Unix-like. And intended to be POSIX compliant. And an awful lot of Unix utilities and abilities have found their way into Linux, starting with the System V-compatible init. X, BASH (and its variants)... you could go on for hours listing programs and commands that have found their way into Linux from the Unix world. Perhaps the most obvious example aside from BASH would be XFCE, which models its interface after the CDE.

        I don't think that's grounds for

        • You're right. It isn't. It is, however, Unix-like. And intended to be POSIX compliant. And an awful lot of Unix utilities and abilities have found their way into Linux, starting with the System V-compatible init. X, BASH (and its variants)... you could go on for hours listing programs and commands that have found their way into Linux from the Unix world. Perhaps the most obvious example aside from BASH would be XFCE, which models its interface after the CDE.

          <sigh/>

          You expect Slashdot readers to be tech literate, but sadly they ain't. Not these days anyway.

          'Linux' is a kernel. Both in fact and in the context of this court case, that's all 'Linux' is. Bash is not part of Linux. Init is not part of Linux. They are programs which can run on top of Linux (or any other POSIX compliant operating system, including UNIX).

          Yes, I know we've all got lazy and refer to Ubuntu and Debian and Slackware and RedHat as 'Linux', but they aren't. They are software distributions which use the Linux kernel. The kernel - and only the kernel - is 'Linux'.

  • by geoffrobinson (109879) on Friday May 02 2008, @08:43AM (#23273692) Homepage
    If Novel Owns Unix and if SCO got money for Linux and its relationship to Unix-rights, McBride basically said "we need to pay Novel the money we got."

    The only reason I can think he said this:

    1) He actually believes it.
    2) He is afraid of fraud charges if he says otherwise. Throw lawsuits into this as well.
    • by WindBourne (631190) on Friday May 02 2008, @08:59AM (#23273944) Journal
      is that McBride really COULD go to prison over this for perjury. And if done right, a deal could be offered to him (1 month or year, instead of 20 years), if he will spill the beans about it. That would have to include MS's and Sun's participation in this. I would guess that McBride is enough of a gutless wonder that he would take the deal. But if he confirms that (Gates and/or Balmer) and McNealy were participants to fleece the companies, what could happen to them? I am guessing nothing.
      • by hackstraw (262471) on Friday May 02 2008, @09:41AM (#23274490) Homepage
        McBride really COULD go to prison over this for perjury

        Obviously, you've never been busted, or had much experience with "the system".

        Criminal charges come like a tidal wave for larger offenses. Its never, "The state vs McBride on one count of perjury". Its the state vs McBride for a laundry list of ranges of crimes, and odds are one of em will be good enough.

        Now with the supposed McBride quote to the supposed jury: "When you go to the bookstore and look in the UNIX section, there's books on "How to Program UNIX" but when you go to the Linux section and look for "How to Program Linux" you're not gonna find it, because it doesn't exist."

        That is utter bullshit. At least where I live, if I go to the local Barnes and Noble, and look in their computer section, there is the Linux section, and under it are the books on "UNIX".

        Even though McBride is backwards in his evidence collecting, the same result could be said by a nutcase like him. That Linux is so much of a now popular version of UNIX that you can't even find a programming UNIX book, you have to look between the Linux books for a UNIX book.

        I simply can't wait until this is over. This has been going on how long now? Like 6-7 years or so. My employers have lost some significant amount of money over this thing while I waste my time commenting/reading on slashdot about this train wreck.

        Its also interesting to note that chages against companies take about an order of magnatude longer to try than those against an individual. For business, this is just part of the game of business. Even when you lose. as in theory McBride has done here, he has been able to finacially gain what? What have the lawyers and other people part of the pump and dump scam gained as a result of this?

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Darl's not a technical guy; for all we know he really does believe it.

      I'm not sure which is worse; a mindless zealot, or a flaming hypocrite.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        But the Open Group is responsible for licensing the name "Unix" and setting the compatibility standards, not SCO. Basically SCO and Open Group were shell companies so that AT&T, IBM, HP, SUN, Novell and other Unix licensers would not get in trouble for anti-trust violations by holding the other companies hostage for technology they all shared.

        Daryl is a classic case of the low-level lackey trying to be the tail wagging the dog. That's why Novell is so quick to put them in their place with extreme mali
                  • The U.S. government taxes all property. If you don't pay, you lose your property.

                    This shows the true ownership belongs to the government. We are merely "leasing" the land from the government.
      • by jc42 (318812) on Friday May 02 2008, @02:29PM (#23278620) Homepage Journal
        Just because they work the same way doesn't make Linux a copy of UNIX ...

        Actually, it's pretty well documented that the original linux was an implementation of the POSIX standard. And POSIX was openly based on Sys/V. So they should work the same way. But is this what "copy" means? If I use a published government standard doc, can I really be charged with "copying" whatever that standard was based on?

        Darl's claim does raise an interesting question: Is he claiming that SCO owns everything based on POSIX? If the court supports this, then he has successfully destroyed much of the US system of government standards. Every standard based on previous industrial usage is in immediate danger of being proprietary, and anything based on a US standard can lead to huge royalty payments, if his claim is upheld.

        So is it legally safe to use the POSIX standard? Can any actual IP lawyer assure us that we can safely base our work on this or any other US government standard, without fear of retroactive royalties in the future?

  • Eh? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Harold Halloway (1047486) on Friday May 02 2008, @08:43AM (#23273698)
    I have a copy of 'Beginning Linux Programming' from Wrox. Doesn't say UNIX anywhere. Hey guys, if you want me to testify I'd be happy to fly over. All expenses paid of course.
  • by LostCluster (625375) * on Friday May 02 2008, @08:43AM (#23273704) Homepage
    IANAL, but if I've ever learned anything from Mock Trial in high school, it's that you never want to contradict what you say on the stand with what you've ever said publicly or under oath. See, it tends to give the impression that you're changing your story, and if the court doesn't know which one to think is true, they're just gonna ignore you.
          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            Jesus Christ, no it is not. It is not a material matter, for one.

            You mean because it doesn't have to do with income? The entire case is about who is entitled to what, and whether they're going to get their entitlements. But regardless, 18 U.S.C. Â 1621 [cornell.edu] disagrees with you. Perhaps you could provide a cite? As the law is written, any lie under oath is perjury.

            If your argument is that the individual was making a statement about interpretation of fact, and thus perjury does not apply, it is a stupid argument - because earlier cases have already established that Darl

            • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

              There's some confusion going around here on this subject, you seem to understand as well as the gp. Yes it's illegal to commit perjury, but it's extremely difficult to prove almost to the point that it's a worthless item to prosecute on. The story reads like they are actually going to push for perjury, what it actually takes to prosecute someone for this I have no idea. I know people lie every day in court, they change their story here and change it there, people are so dishonest prosecuting for perjury bas
  • by markov_chain (202465) on Friday May 02 2008, @08:44AM (#23273718) Homepage
    Nobody will tell Darl about POSIX, or the poor guy will have a heart attack of litigation-happy joy!
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        Linux is POSIX compliant, which only means it hasn't been certified. Many free BSDs are POSIX compliant but not certified, as well.

        Saying Linux isn't POSIX is like saying Mesa isn't OpenGL - it is a functional work-alike that runs the same code using the same API. It is written from scratch to not require paying for the certification license or per-unit fees (I recall SGI required OpenGL vendors pay a small per-unit fee in the 1990s - I'm not sure if that is how it is licensed today).
  • by blind biker (1066130) on Friday May 02 2008, @08:51AM (#23273806) Journal
    Well, I actually do have a book on how to program Linux: "Beginning Linux Programming" (Matthew and Stones), in all its red glory here on my shelf. Now I don't know whether the summary quoted McBride very well and I don't have much time to investigate right now, but if he did say what he said, that was pretty silly.

    I also have the "Teach yourself Linux Programming in 24 hours, did not read it much, though. However, it exists, and more Linux programming literature exists, too.
  • by r_jensen11 (598210) on Friday May 02 2008, @08:51AM (#23273808)
    I write to inform you that the product you are bullshitting about is not Linux, but GNU/Linux. GNU/Linux, unlike products released by Microsoft (Such as OPENXML), tend to have names which are not doublespeak. This practice of not praciticing doublespeak is also adopted by the Free Software Foundation.

    As you are most certainly aware, GNU/Linux stands for GNU is Not Unix. Ergo, Linux is not Unix.

    Thank you for your time. My lawyers will send you the bill for mine.
    • Re:Dear Mr. McBride, (Score:5, Interesting)

      by vux984 (928602) on Friday May 02 2008, @10:38AM (#23275408)
      GNU/Linux, unlike products released by Microsoft (Such as OPENXML), tend to have names which are not doublespeak. This practice of not praciticing doublespeak is also adopted by the Free Software Foundation.

      What a load. You tell me which products tell you what they do:

      Internet Explorer
      SQL Server Management Studio
      Photoshop
      Windows Mail
      Windows Live Messenger
      Remote Desktop Connection
      Adobe Acrobat Reader

      or their FOSS equiv's..

      Firefox / Konqueror / IceWeasel...
      pgAdmin III / FlameRobin ...
      gimp
      Thunderbird / Evolution
      Pidgin / Gaim
      TightVNC / FreeNX
      Evince ...

      I could go on all day. Sure there are plenty of bad proprietary names, and lots of descriptive OSS names, but suggesting that a characteristic of open source projects is good names is utterly laughable.

      • by Afecks (899057) on Friday May 02 2008, @10:46AM (#23275512)
        You're the only one that said "good names". The GP said "doublespeak". There is a difference.
        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          You're the only one that said "good names". The GP said "doublespeak". There is a difference.

          Fair comment.

          But that just underscores the whole issue that half the oss community explicitly disagrees with calling linux GNU/Linux. A FUD spreading cynic might even think it odd that half the community wants to lose the part about saying its 'not unix'. Hmmmm. :)

          But actually, this gets even more deliciously ironic when you realize that "GNU/Linux" really represents the pairing of the 'gnu' userland, and the 'linux
  • by mlwmohawk (801821) on Friday May 02 2008, @08:52AM (#23273832)
    In a trial, with a jury, they are introducing their opinions as testimony. Even though the facts have been proved this theory to be wrong, this is EXACTLY what they have been waiting for.

    Linux and UNIX are very similar. Just as a Toyota is similar to a Ford, 4 wheels, gas powered motor, disk brakes, etc. Hell take a tundra and an F-150 and put them side by side. Besides aesthetic differences, explain to me how one is "clearly" different than the other. Using SCO's logic, the Tundra contains a Ford.

    They will use the similarities to confuse the jury who have no clue about the history of "*NIX* beginning with Multics. I certainly hope Novell is ready.

    PARANOID FEAR: Novell is working with SCO to establish in a court of law, by losing, that Linux is the property of Novell.
  • by Vexler (127353) on Friday May 02 2008, @09:24AM (#23274268) Journal
    ...is to treat Darl McBridge the same way some people dealt with Alan Ralsky: Send him as many Linux programming books as we can.
  • O rly? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by aztektum (170569) on Friday May 02 2008, @09:26AM (#23274290)
    I realize this is a bit redundant now, but Darl, you're a fuckin' idiot. [amazon.com]
  • Darl is a copy of an asshole.
  • by Locutus (9039) on Friday May 02 2008, @11:01AM (#23275744)
    but because SCO went after some deep pocketed businesses( IBM, Novell, etc ) they actually got a fight instead of being handed over millions and millions. Usually this is a bully vs weakling type of fight and the weakling must give in. It takes alot of weaklings to make a business plan work though so there are $ in the eyes when someone gets the bright idea to go for the big guys pockets.

    Come to think of it, Lindows wasn't really a big-guy but I guess Microsoft had to stop them one way or another. I'm thinking of this case because it is another case where the outcome wasn't what was expected. ie, Microsoft almost lost their "Windows" trademark and the result was that Lindows became Linspire, Lindows got paid millions, and Lindows got 5 years of licensed software.

    At least the Lindows vs MSFT case only took a couple years. Had it taken longer and Lindows/Linspire might have had to settle for much much less. They were not rolling in the doe.

    This case has been dragging on for over 6 years and in that time, just little me, I've had small business owners mention licensing issues with regard to using Linux and OSS. The exact reason why I feel Microsoft and Sun helped fund SCO and the reason why Microsoft created their own SCO-ish licensing threats against Linux and OSS.

    Unfortunately, Microsoft is learning alot from all this and will most likely stay way clear of filing suit against any of the big companies using or backing Linux and OSS. They know that they get more value from threats and little fear of having those threats exposed as long as they stay out of court. Their game is to use the threats to keep the Linux/OSS market contained and then use their wealth to pay off any large business thinking of being a GNU/Linux/OSS poster child. They have the funds to keep down alot of the uprising and the business customers are the ones willing to take short term payola from Microsoft to keep the current course with running Microsoft Windows, Microsoft Office, and Microsoft Server software.

    Where this is not in Microsoft's control is in government and the public sector. They've already had a tough time using the BSA to muscle some school districts into longterm licensing contracts when the Linux K12LTSP group showed the way to Microsoft/BSA independence and low cost computing. Recent financial belt tightening is opening the door further and there's little Microsoft can do but deeply discount their software and they are already showing signs of reduced revenues( (24%) this quarter ) from their big money maker, the Windows OS.

    SCO is smart to try to devalue the licenses paid by Microsoft and Sun and if they are able to pull it off and get Novell out of the revenue stream, Novell also knows that Microsoft and Sun will not ask for their money back. After all, both Microsoft and Sun got what they paid for and that was not really a license for UNIX. IMO.

    One more thing, McBride should get burned for what he's done to SCO, IBM, Novell, AutoZone, and all others involved. It was a scam of epic proportions and took way too long. IMO.

    LoB
  • O RLY DARL? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Kymermosst (33885) on Friday May 02 2008, @11:24AM (#23276056) Journal
    when you go to the Linux section and look for "How to Program Linux" you're not gonna find it, because it doesn't exist.

    That's funny, my copy of Linux System Programming [oreilly.com] must be a figment of my imagination, then.

  • by Andy Dodd (701) <atd7&cornell,edu> on Friday May 02 2008, @11:54AM (#23276498) Homepage
    He's effectively saying that they are the same because their APIs are (mostly) the same.

    This is true, but not because Linux is a copy of UNIX, but because Linux and UNIX both conform to a published API standard (POSIX). One can easily implement something that behaves like UNIX without looking at a single line of code, because the API (POSIX) is documented, standardized, and published.
    • by ari_j (90255) on Friday May 02 2008, @08:56AM (#23273906)
      "I'm sorry, your honor. I wasn't clear. I was referring to a 1980 bookstore."
      • by cvd6262 (180823) on Friday May 02 2008, @09:31AM (#23274344)
        Claude Elsinore: And I'd like to point out that these tapes have not been faked, or altered in any way. In fact they have time coding, which is very hard to fake.

        The Judge: Would you please explain for the court "time coding."

        Claude Elsinore: Well, uh, just because I don't know what it is, it doesn't mean I'm lying.
          • I'd rather spark an intelligent discussion than rack up meaningless points. But maybe that's just me...

            Because, you know, having good discussions benefits the whole community, and points just benefit my own karma.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      This monkey needs to get his sak out of the fire. I don't know how many people remember Unix before Linux. I do. And I think I can safely say that unix was on the way out before linux came along. Many unix shops where ether packing up or converting to windows nt at that time.

      Then out of the fray come a penguin with a mission. Linux put unix in the hand of whole new generation of hackers and programmers. McBride and his monkeys need to be down on their knees sacrificing a goat to the penguin gods for

      • It turns out that most lawyers and judges have very limited imaginations and are terrible at what they do. Most likely this sort of thing would never occur to them. Quite likely, they won't even recognize the contradiction with the recent testimony mentioned in the summary.

        I worked once for the law firm that helped invent the class action law suit, helped sue Exxon for billion dollars in Valdez and won, helped police the securities industry when there was no enforcement, brought down Milken...and that was just to start.

        There is not a writer for a TV show or a movie that could even accurately depict just how smart these people are. Those lawyers ask those sorts of questions all the time. These are all Ivy Leaguers that came from the likes of U-Penn, Harvard and they do. It wasn't even worth lying to these people because they could just pick you apart like a rotisserie chicken and you wouldn't even know it until they are ready to throw the bones out.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      The standard for perjury is higher than meerly lying under oath, otherwise every he-said vs she-said case would be followed up with prosecution of the looser. Witnesses lie quite often. Usually all that happens is that opposing counsel trips them up under cross, or introduces evidence that contradicts their testimony. They loose credibility with the judge/jury, but they don't go to jail.

      The grand jury rightly refused to indict Clinton because the lie he got caugh in, while crappy and self-serving, wasn

    • Darl McBride [uncyclopedia.org] and Steve Ballmer* [uncyclopedia.org] have the same motto:

      "No gnus is good gnus".

      -mcgrew

      *The linked article refers to Steve Ballmer, president of Microsoft and dancing, mentally deficient, foul-mouthed chair-throwing psychopath. For another dangerously unstable person, see "Tom Cruise".
We were happily married for eight months. Unfortunately, we were married for four and a half years. -- Nick Faldo