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Ubuntu Dev Summit Lays Out Plans For Hardy Heron 261

Posted by Zonk
from the hee-such-humorous-names dept.
Opurt writes "On the first day of the Ubuntu Developer Summit in Boston this week, a roundtable session focused on the vision for the upcoming Hardy Heron Ubuntu release. Unlike Gutsy Gibbon, which brought a handful of experimental features along with some new functionality, the focus with Heron will be on robustness as it will be supported on the desktop for 3 years. 'The Compiz window manager, which adds sophisticated visual effects to the Ubuntu user interface, will be a big target for usability improvements. Keyboard bindings and session management were noted as two areas where Compiz still needs some work.' PolicyKit and Tracker will also be significantly tweaked, while Heron is also likely to see a complete visual refresh."
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Ubuntu Dev Summit Lays Out Plans For Hardy Heron

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  • by Anonymous Coward
    The Debian swirl doesn't hack it any more.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by WheelDweller (108946)
      Well, as a total outsider to the Debian mindset, let me offer this.

      I used Redhat with the RPMS and all, even maintaining software. It was the second foray into Linux; the first time was with Slackware 2.3 and about 30 floppies. I stayed with Redhat from 4.0 until FC4, but by that time I was sick of the business bias. For about a year OpenLdap on their repo was busted. It was nearly herculean to get it to work, and keep it working. Then they offered a replacement to it in the purchase of the Netscape Directo
      • by domatic (1128127)
        That quality you notice isn't inherent to the package manager. Debian would be just as good if it were based on rpm. Debian is quite anal about packages and their
        dependencies and good mirrors for same. This is the base that makes the Debian derived distros so good.

        If rpm based distros took just as care with viewing packages-as-a-unified system (and maybe some do) then they'd be as kind to you.
      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by ppc_digger (961188)

        We really owe a lot to "Deb" and "Ian" for their brilliant, visionary start.
        If memory serves, Deb isn't one of the Debian founders, she is Ian Murdock's wife (then girlfriend).
        • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

          by xenocide2 (231786)
          You know what they say: Behind every great man is a woman pushing him to excel. Or something. I'm just glad it worked out -- imagine the flame wars on what to rename the distro had they broken up!
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by pintpusher (854001)

        Ubuntu has done a fabulous job with Debian's beginnings [...] Personally, I love Ubuntu. And I've grown to love it [...] for it's product as well.

        I think Ubuntu is great in that it is helping people migrate away from the default OS.

        But I have to say, Debian *itself* is a great product. There seems to be this idea that Ubuntu is the usable Debian, and that's just not true. Debian has become really a very advanced OS in terms of usability, portability, and reliability. Debian is so much more than just a great beginning for other OSes to build on.

        Granted, its not the bee's knees in terms of the latest versions of apps and so forth (talking stable here)

      • I've been using linux since 99, and have been using SuSE since 2001. I've played with at least 6-7 other distros as well from Mandrake to Gentoo. I've stuck with SuSe for a long time just because of the number of users and support.
        However, I just recently switched to Ubuntu, and have to say that the Apt system is much better than the RPM, at least for a "power user".
        I've gotten into RPM-dependency hell more often than I'd liked in the past with SuSE when installing something, and so far, ha
  • by Anonymous Coward on Friday November 02, 2007 @07:39AM (#21210179)

    "hairy hardon"
    • Re: (Score:2, Flamebait)

      by rubycodez (864176)
      you're thinking of Gaybuntu. Most users are still at Flaming Flamingo, but some have upgraded to the Gaping Goatse.
  • more details (Score:5, Informative)

    by sayfawa (1099071) on Friday November 02, 2007 @07:41AM (#21210213)
    Here's a better summary [fsckin.com] of things to come in Hardy, linked from an OS News [osnews.com] posting.
    • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

      by zeromorph (1009305)

      Installing Ubuntu from within Windows
      ubuntu-install.exe... nuff said... might not make it though... it is listed as 'dangling' which means it can't be scheduled or has circular dependancies... no idea why it can't be made to work.

      (from your interesting link [fsckin.com])

      Don't whether that's a good idea.
      But imagine the possibilities that such an exe-file would have as a spam-email attachement: "Mark Shuttlewort wants you to click on this link." or "Bigger hard drive, better performance! Click below!"

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by MooseMuffin (799896)
        Being tricked into installing linux is the least of your problems if you're getting spam with 700mb attachments.
    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by UbuntuDupe (970646) *
      Yeah, but I think this is the *best* summary so far:

      -We're still going to make grub HIGHLY RECOMMENDED in the install process. I mean, obviously, it's stupid to install such a flaky bootloader that can't handle large hard drives when you don't need to, but why bother newcomers with a warning about the nasty nasty risk of locking users out of their computer? Changing this would be tantamout to admitting UbuntuDupe was right, and we can't have that. Too painful to admit error.

      -Ditto for advising the user t
  • by tttonyyy (726776) on Friday November 02, 2007 @07:52AM (#21210297) Homepage Journal
    ...as well as adding new features?

    'oops' proxy, for example. Worked great under other Debs distros, but kept crashing under FF. Left out of GG altogether.
    • by JediTrainer (314273) on Friday November 02, 2007 @08:41AM (#21210785)
      Hear hear. I'd particularly like the regressions addressed - the latest upgrade broke my installation of Eclipse so I can't run Ant inside it [launchpad.net]

      Yes, the workaround is to either download/install Eclipse manually or run Ant from the command-line, but it is annoying to see a basic feature still broken for weeks when it worked perfectly fine before.
      • by haeger (85819) on Friday November 02, 2007 @09:12AM (#21211225)
        Yeah.
        Gutsy broke my vmware. Not expected and from what I hear there's no vmware in gutsy still. We who have technical know-how can still fix it, but it does seem that the QA-dept slipped a bit on Gutsy.

        .haeger

        • by nhaines (622289) <nhaines@ub[ ]u.com ['unt' in gap]> on Friday November 02, 2007 @10:10AM (#21212061) Homepage
          Ubuntu 7.10 didn't "break" your copy of VMware server. Every time you change your kernel, you need to recompile the kernel modules for VMware. VMware provided kernel modules for Ubuntu 7.04's updates. Currently they do not provide kernel modules for 7.10. They will probably begin providing these updates within a few weeks.

          In the meantime, you just have to compile your own modules. It's very simple--it's a matter of running vmware-config.pl every time you upgrade the kernel, which will automatically take care of everything for you as long as you have build-essential installed.

          As annoying as this is (and I find it mildly annoying, at least), it is the price of using a proprietary solution like VMware instead of similar Free solutions (like QEMU or VirtualBox).
        • by Ash-Fox (726320)

          Gutsy broke my vmware. Not expected and from what I hear there's no vmware in gutsy still. We who have technical know-how can still fix it, but it does seem that the QA-dept slipped a bit on Gutsy.
          If you used the vwmare-player/vmware-server packages in the Ubuntu repositories, that shouldn't of happened (there are even vmware kernel modules in the repositories that are updated with every kernel update).
          • by ericrost (1049312)
            Not in Gutsy (at least amd64 gutsy). I had exactly the same "issue" and had to reinstall from the binary package from VMWare themselves. Not a huge deal (aside from my own messing up the restricted modules package version so i was pinned a release behind on the kernel with no headers available.. but I diegress), but not in the repos.
    • by blazerw11 (68928)
      Or, maybe, oops proxy has been abandoned for 4 years and doesn't work very well today. Last official release was Nov. 21, 2003. oops! downloads [paco.net].

    • by Woy (606550)
      There was also a serious regression in KDE bluetooth functionality. Really left a bad taste in my mouth.
  • by morgan_greywolf (835522) on Friday November 02, 2007 @07:57AM (#21210353) Homepage Journal
    It'll be a while for before Hardy Heron is Hardly Hereyet (*bada bum*!) But seriously, I'd like to see some big improvements in Gnome file management. Much of this could be done with pre-configured custom Nautilus actions, but where Nautilus could use some help:

    • Recursive file permissions and ownership changes: Nautilus' interface for this clunky and doesn't work right.
    • Directory compare & synchronization: sync two folders by content. Yes, I know there are tools for this, but most of them are too difficult for the average user to setup and use.
    • Easy interface for massive file renames by pattern matching. See the support for this in Total Commander. Really easy.
    • Install the GNOME GPG frontend by default. (is this already in Gutsy?)


    • Other stuff I'd like to see:

    • Support for ext3 extended attributes and ACLs turned on by default.
    • An easy interface for installing QEMU and Windows like QEMU Launcher and QEMU Control polished and fully supported by Canonical.
    • LVM and RAID supported in the graphical installer. C'mon, guys, LOTS of people use RAID and LVM, especially now that most new computers have an integrated SATA RAID controller!
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by baadger (764884)

      Recursive file permissions and ownership changes: Nautilus' interface for this clunky and doesn't work right.

      Yeah, and their current permissions tab on the folder/file properties dialog which was introduced in 2.18 (I think), made the whole dialog a whole lot taller. It's pretty ugly.

      Directory compare & synchronization: sync two folders by content. Yes, I know there are tools for this, but most of them are too difficult for the average user to setup and use.

      This is a good idea, in fact I'd be happy if i

    • An easy interface for installing QEMU and Windows like QEMU Launcher and QEMU Control polished and fully supported by Canonical.

      I'd rather not have QEMU the default VM. It significantly lacks in features, usability, and polish. Running Windows under it gives horrible performance (even with kqemu) and has random application crashes. Instead, I'd like to see more integration with VirtualBox, which, btw, is licensed under the GPL* and included in Gutsy. It's fully GUI oriented (qt, unfortunately), has drivers for Windows to do seamless mouse and better video performance, and it also supports a "seamless" mode where Windows apps ap

  • Given the way Linux users look at the Vista users, Haughty Heron might be more appropriate. Given the higher security of Linux, it could be Hardened Heron too. Given the cryptic command lines preferred by the unixy people, it could be Hackneyed Heron. Given the effect it is having on Redmond, it could be Haunting Heron.
  • by RandoX (828285) on Friday November 02, 2007 @08:06AM (#21210425)
    Bake at 325 for 45 minutes. Serve with Wine sauce.
  • Experiences (Score:5, Interesting)

    by PinkyDead (862370) on Friday November 02, 2007 @08:34AM (#21210707) Journal
    If I was asked what things annoyed me most about Feisty (Offtopic?!), I would have said two things: Printers and all that stuff you needed Automatix for. Everything else was pretty much fine.

    Along comes Gutsy and... Printers, wow! - doesn't get easier, and Automatix? I've been using Gutsy for about 2 months now and I still haven't downloaded Automatix (Sorry guys, great tool - but don't need it anymore)

    Gutsy brings Ubuntu to a level where it can really stand up against the likes of Windows (even coming out better in a lot of surveys than Vista). Compiz is incredible - and anyone I know with Windows stands open-mouthed when they see it.

    Heron really needs to up the level way beyond what it is at now, and become the Windows Slayer. I have no idea how they would do that though.
    • by dave420 (699308)
      It needs to run all the software people run on Windows, and support all the hardware Windows does. That has to be achieved before it can topple Vista. It could happen, but I fear by the time it's achieved that, new software and hardware will have been released which it needs to support. It's a game of cat and mouse, and I don't see how it can win, which sucks.
      • Re:Experiences (Score:4, Insightful)

        by swillden (191260) * <shawn-ds@willden.org> on Friday November 02, 2007 @12:02PM (#21213943) Homepage Journal

        It needs to run all the software people run on Windows, and support all the hardware Windows does.

        No, it doesn't.

        I needs to run all of the software that people need. With a few exceptions, Ubuntu provides equivalent software to what's available for Windows, typically at a much better price. And the exceptions tend to be fairly specialized, expensive software packages, not general desktop stuff.

        As for hardware, at this point in time Gutsy has better hardware support than Vista does, overall. There are a couple areas where Vista is better (wireless), but there is lots of hardware around, particularly older stuff, that Vista does not support and Ubuntu does.

        In any case, the real way to beat the hardware support issue is to get Ubuntu pre-installed, and put it on the manufacturer to make sure that all of the hardware in the box works. That's how it works for Windows. You also need support for add-ons, but these days those are all USB and danged near everything works (cue the anecdotes from people who've found something that doesn't) just fine on Ubuntu. In fact, it often works *better* than it does on Windows because Windows will often require you to install some driver software whereas with Linux you just plug it in and it starts working.

        • by dave420 (699308)
          That's what I'm talking about - running the software people want to run. Currently I can't use Ubuntu as my desktop, as my work requires me to use software that simply doesn't exist on Ubuntu (Adobe suite, mainly). The same goes for at home, as I like to play games. As for hardware support, you have to install drivers on Ubuntu, as well. It's not magic :) It does have plenty of built-in drivers, but then so does Windows. So far I've had a much better experience with hardware support on Windows than on
    • by Ash-Fox (726320)

      If I was asked what things annoyed me most about Feisty (Offtopic?!), I would have said two things: Printers and all that stuff you needed Automatix for. Everything else was pretty much fine.
      Why did you use automatix? Installing the ubuntu-restricted-extras package would of given you everything automatix installs.
  • by ceeam (39911) on Friday November 02, 2007 @08:59AM (#21211029)
    Are they gonna start regarding KDE as first-class citizen? 'Cos Gutsy Kubuntu is a joke. And GNOME IMO is totally evil.

    You know, after using Kubuntu for quite a long time and recently having played with PCLinuxOS I think I understand now why it has moved to #1 at Distrowatch. It rightly deserves the spot.
    • I seem to remember that Mark Shuttleworth chose Gnome not because of any technical reasons, but because they have a rigid 6 month release schedule which makes planning for commercial support much easier. I personally would love to see KDE switch to a similar release model (at least once KDE4 is officially released) then get the same level of attention from Canonical/Ubuntu. This would be much better for both KDE and for Ubuntu, in my opinion.

      Are they gonna start regarding KDE as first-class citizen? 'Cos Gu

      • by ericrost (1049312) on Friday November 02, 2007 @11:55AM (#21213849) Homepage Journal
        This is why I love Linux. Gnome fills my needs perfectly, but I'm not every user. KDE fills your needs perfectly, but again, you're not every user. Rather than getting into ugly pissing matches about who'd desktop is better, we can coexist and each have something we like.

        I think the reasons for KUbuntu being less polished are pretty easily guessable. Ubuntu tends to be for newer Linux users (although I fall into the PowerUser/wannabe dev category). Gnome is a good DE for the underlying philosophy of Ubuntu (usable out of the box with little to no configuration, but able to be tweaked to your level). KDE tends to be for those that just need things exactly their way. KDE is not the default, so it falls to the downstream Kubuntu dev team to put the polish into the releases, and their a minority. Their working hard (I would imagine) on finishing KDE4's integration.

        Anyhow, less of a point, more of a "this is why Linux gets my vote" post.
  • Kubuntu too? (Score:2, Informative)

    by joeslugg (8092)
    In TFA and in another posted summary that had more details, the focus (expectedly) is on standard Ubuntu. I'm just wondering if anyone knows if and how much focus and time is put on improving Kubuntu as well? I read things about improvements to GUI tools and apps, and it's always Gnome/GTK related. Are the KDE/Qt counterparts getting attention as well?

    (Please, no flame wars on Gnome v. KDE - it's just my preference and you have yours.)

    Hmm, I should go try their forums too...

    • I've been reading the Ubuntu forums on feature requests etc. As a Kubuntu user, I feel like I'm irrelevant or left out.

      There are lively discussions going on in Ubuntu about what can be improved. As I read through the list, I think, "Wait, that's already fixed in Kubuntu. Don't these peopel talk to each other?" To be sure, a lot of the time it's because the KDE system is more tightly integrated than GNOME, but sometimes it's just that the KDE app already has the feature and the GNOME app doesn't. (Didn'
  • Compiz doesn't work on every graphics card (or with every driver). The Compiz-Fusion wiki needs reports of which HW/drivers work or don't [compiz-fusion.org]. That list, in turn, will help recruit many more people to test and develop the feature.
  • What happened to 'horny hedgehog' ?
  • In my opinion... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Derek Loev (1050412) on Friday November 02, 2007 @10:38AM (#21212593)
    Right now the biggest fault with Ubuntu is Gnome. I've been using Ubuntu since the day Gutsy was released (previously a Gentoo user) and I love so many aspects of it. I even like the simplicity of Gnome compared to KDE. But, why does Gnome lack so many customization options. I mean, seriously, with so many developers it cannot be very difficult to create some small programs that modify GConf. That should be Gnome's priority and because Ubuntu relies so heavily on Gnome it needs to be one of Ubuntu's priorities to get the ball rolling.
    I want to add different folders to my Places bar at the top of the screen, I want to add different buttons (like the Home folder, seriously, it was difficult) to the desktop. I want to be able to edit my Network servers in the Places bar.
    I've figured out how to do all of this with gconf but there is absolutely no reason for me to not to be able to go into my System tab and figure out how to do this with a nice, pretty graphical program.
    This post may be a little off topic and I know that Ubuntu comes in different flavors (Kubuntu, Xubuntu) but when the majority of users are going to be using Gnome with Ubuntu, then Gnome needs to improve to the point where it does not detract from the Ubuntu experience.
    • by notthe9 (800486)
      This [pair.com] is an interesting read. It explains a lot about the philosophy behind things. Sometimes it looks nicer on paper (screen?) then when you just need to get something done.

Chairman of the Bored.

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