Countering the Arguments Against Unbundling Windows 624
An anonymous reader sends in a link to a blog posting by Con Zymaris arguing for competition regulators to force the unbundling of Windows from consumer PCs. The argument takes the form of knocking down one by one the objections raised by "unbundling skeptics."
But then ... (Score:5, Insightful)
"GASP! Windows won't be FREE!"
So many people only use Windows because they think they didn't pay for it. That's why they have such a low expectation of quality - when it crashes they say - Well, I didn't pay for it, so its not like I can ask for my money back."
Unbundle it and let the competition flow. I can see Apple doing a big push for OSX as an aftermarket product. Also, Novell's openSUSE 10.3 is a keeper.
hard to parse much? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:But then ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What about Macs? (Score:5, Insightful)
hmm (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Help us government, because we can't win? (Score:5, Insightful)
> "I would think that if Linux was that much better than Windows, that consumers would demand Linux powered PCs. If you build it, they will come."
Most people don't even know about the possibility of alternatives. To them, a PC is any computer that runs Windows, same as, for a long time, the Internet was Internet Explorer or AOL.
The cost of an OEM Windows license is a large portion of the cost of a new machine, compared to any time in the past. For the cost of Windows and Office, you can buy 2 or 3 computers with no OS, and install linux. the problem is, the consumer is not given a choice, so we don't know how many would take the opportunity.
Since that choice never happens, software developers develop for the Windows platform, ensuring lock-in.
Of course, now that Novell's openSUSE can run Windows in a window in a VM [slashdot.org], there's more reason to buy a new machine with linux, then move your old copy of XP or 2k to a virtual machine on your new box, rather than paying the Microsoft tax a second time (and yes, you can move your license to your new hardware, despite what Microsoft tries to FUD. Just make sure you remove it from your old hardware at the same time).
Re:hmm (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Help us government, because we can't win? (Score:5, Insightful)
You miss the point. Buy a thousand motherboards, chips and cases, put Linux onto them, then walk into computer stores and sell them. There's nothing that precludes you from selling Linux PCs of your own brand.
Surely, someone could sell Linux PCs, preloaded off the Internet, or even through a catalog. At one time, Michael Dell built PCs in his dorm room and sold them over a catalog. Instead of trying to get the government to force Mr. Dell what to sell, why can't you sell what you think should be sold.
Please, spare me the excuses. Microsoft has no monopoly power over you, if you sell Linux powered PCs.
Re:hmm (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:But then ... (Score:2, Insightful)
What I was saying was that I think that they could turn the majority of the potential software only sales they'd be making into full blown hardware/software packages. Someone that wants OSX is usually going to be willing to shell out the extra few hundred bucks or so to get the Apple hardware with it, and those that actually need OSX for whatever reason would then be forced to get the hardware with it, which would be a better deal for them.
why ship with no system installed? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Help us government, because we can't win? (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, I think you're missing the point - competition only works when there is no pre-existing monopoly that got there via illegal means.
We depend on the government to step in to protect us from predators who use illegal means to gain control of a market, same as we depend on them, via police and firemen, for local protection from robbers and fire.
Extreme situations call for extreme measures - unbundling sales of the OS isn't anywhere near extreme. To turn your argument on its head - if Windows is so good, it should have no fear of being able to compete in a truly free marketplace, solely on its merit.
Free competition scares the crap out of Microsoft, because it can't win. Where its forced to compete, it loses market share - just look at the embedded, server, and cluster markets.
Linux is not ready. (Score:4, Insightful)
Look! This text is on a different line.
I used <br> tags.
Slashdotters are so used to doing things in a technical way that they disregard the very real usability issues that surround Open Source. If I put text on a different line in this textbox I should not have to know or care about the br tag. This is FOSS's greatest barrier to adoption in a nutshell.
Re:What about Macs? (Score:3, Insightful)
There are better ways to break the MS monopoly if you are so inclined - break off the company's OS division, for instance. Or, force the company to license its code. Or, split MS into two companies with identical product offerings. Each of these is a one-time move that would probably remedy the situation, whereas the solution in TFA would require constant regulation.
Re:why ship with no system installed? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:What about Macs? (Score:3, Insightful)
2) Microsoft has a hugely bigger install base than Apple does.
3) Microsoft does not make computers or bundles of hardware/OS. Apple does.
Forcing Apple to play by the rules that should apply to Microsoft doesn't make sense; not now, anyway.
How to force Linux on everyone Fan Fiction (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Drivers, Compatability Testing, and Support (Score:3, Insightful)
Attempting to stop a convicted monopoly from dealmaking that excludes competitors or allows them to collect money per PC regardless of the OS isn't a matter of regulators "taking sides". It is stopping said monopoly from abusing its position further, and actually giving competition a chance to thrive in an area despite the monopoly's best efforts to exclude.
Strawman (Score:3, Insightful)
Who claimed they did want to install their own OS, and what does that have to do with bundling? Bundling is unrelated to pre-installation.
Re:Please Unbundle.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Help us government, because we can't win? (Score:5, Insightful)
"The craziest part is, you obsess over Dell PCs, and Dell's are the biggest stock part PCs of them all. They don't do anything special - stock motherboards, stock CPUs, stock graphics cards. There's nothing Dell puts into a PC that you could not put into yours when you sell it."
All my PCs are self-built (laptops excepted). Been like that for years and years. I have never owned a Dell or a Gateway.
"There's absolutely no reason a consumer could not benefit from that offering, and its not Microsoft's fault that you Linux people are too big of pussies to actually sell your own offerings."
Actually, now that Christmas is coming, I plan to give away a few hard disk/openSUSE install combos as small presents. I know a few people who are running windows on hardware thats 2-3 years old, and could use both the extra disk space, and the stability of linux. They'll be able to continue running Windows via a VM (no longer a need to dual-boot) until they get used to the new setup.
There's tons of Windows users out there who are only a hard disk away from running linux. They get to keep all their old data, they don't have to shell out big bucks for the latest bloatware, etc.
If every linux user did this for just 2 people this Christmas, Microsofts' stranglehold on the market would be over in a year.
Re:But then ... (Score:3, Insightful)
I was in Future Shop this weekend with one of my daughters and her boyfriend. From the conversations I heard, a lot of people don't want Vista.
If her laptop can take a second drive, its cheaper to install a second drive and linux than to buy an XP retail license. She can then run Windows in a virtual machine right on the linux desktop. (oh the irony or funning Windows in a window).
Also, check out the "downgrade rights" - everyone's doing it nowadays.
Or suggest she return the laptop because its not fit for the purpose for which it was purchased.
Re:What about Macs? (Score:5, Insightful)
Imagine... (Score:3, Insightful)
"Naaaah" - Theodoric of York, Medieval Barber
Very Interesting (Score:3, Insightful)
Quite an interesting topic, but I prefer arguments that are contrary to the position opposite of that which counters the arguments against unbundling Windows. Or to put it another way: for unbundling windows. I know it's not quite a triple negative, but it's very unclear and I see this type of writing all the time in slashdot head-lines. If you're against someone who is not for undoing something, then just say you're for undoing something, or against doing something. Reduce it to its logical minimum. Why not use "Countering The Arguments For Keeping Windows Bundled", or "Countering the Bundled Windows Apologists"?
another good proposal (Score:3, Insightful)
A minor aspect of the article's proposal that I like is the requirement that the manufacturer include an MS Windows recovery CD. Some manufacturers don't do that, even though you are paying for MS Windows. The last HP machine I bought had no CD. Instead, it had a hidden "backup partition". That's okay if you just want to reinstall the system after it has been corrupted, but useless if the drive dies or you decide to replace it with a larger one.
Re:Except it costs less than free (Score:2, Insightful)
Once something gets into a users
Virii in the traditional sense probably won't be as bad, but do they even exist anymore?
I actually disagree wth one of hte article's main (Score:3, Insightful)
The ideal situation is where every PC vendor must sell the operating system as a paid option for the PC. This helps people decide if they really want to pay for it, and doesn't force many people to pay for software they are going to rip out anyway. Selling a bare PC with both Windows and Linux on separate media is bad for the consumer, bad for the OEM (more tech support calls, etc), and so forth.
I wish I could die like Microsoft! (Score:2, Insightful)
Boy, I wish I could die like Microsoft. They have double digit growth in both revenues and earnings per share, and are set to pass 50 billion dollars in revenues this year. For all of this talk about Google competing with Microsoft, Google's revenues remain a paltry few billion a year.
Yeah, that sounds like dying. Boy, I hear them death rattles now... Microsoft, on the verge of shutting down... except for that "oh we made 50 billion dollars this year part". Microsoft makes more in one month than all Linux distributions -combined-.
Re:Help us government, because we can't win? (Score:3, Insightful)
Ah, but what's the proportional value of the software? See, you need to think more like a salesperson. Cost is irrelevant. It's the value that is added. And, look at all the value Windows adds to a PC..
a) You have Direct X 10, for games. And, there are a ton of games for Windows.
b) You
c) You have a pretty good web browser. Yeah, IE has its flaws, but it works pretty good for most people. That is, I can go to the baseball site, get the scores, and it works.
d) You have interfaces to a whole bunch of consumer appliances, from digital cameras and video players, and more.
e) Vista has a really cool sound model that I am eager to play with.
f) Unicode (UTF-16) is built in from the ground up. NTFS stacks up well against Reiser and ExtN for most applications. Remote Desktop and Terminal Services for Windows work really well...
Unbundle != No Preinstall (Score:3, Insightful)
1. Preinstalled Windows
2. Preinstalled Linux
or
3. Blank Machine
It only needs to be another line-item option in the system configuration. OEM blows the correct image and includes a Windows CD + Sticker for Windows customers, and a Linux CD for Linux ones, and nothing for the blank customers.
Come on, this is trivial. Just have the assembly tech plug the drive into a fixture, hit the correct image choice, and bingo-bango, it's ready.
Re:hmm (Score:1, Insightful)
I understand that Windows is easier to use because you're used to it, but people need to realize that this is a a very big "because". If you were to take a complete computer newb, sit him down in front of two computers (either both pre-installed and pre-configured, or neither), I would be willing to bet that the majority of people would figure out the Linux box faster.
Re:Ubuntu's chance to shine.... (Score:1, Insightful)
This is stupid! (Score:3, Insightful)
This won't harm Microsoft, it will harm PC manufacturers and resellers, who will bear the entirely of the market disatisfaction with the unbundling. People will still buy Windows, only now they will be paying Microsoft full price for it.
The big hurdle you whiners need to get over is that Windows has 90% market share because people have voluntarily chosen to buy Windows or PC with bundled Windows. It may not be the choice you would have made, but that give you no excuse to government and its police to impose your will on others. IF this is that important to you, get off your high horse and go out and buy a computer without Windows on it. Sheesh.
Re:What about Macs? (Score:3, Insightful)
But here is where we get into the Catch-22: no bundleware vendor wants to build a product for a platform that has a small install base. Linux's install base cannot grow if it cannot compete. It cannot compete if people can buy a PC with MS-Windows for a "nominal price", which they can only because bundleware is made available for MS-Windows.
Re:What about Macs? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:But then ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:But then ... (Score:4, Insightful)
As soon as you start pushing it on random, unknown hardware, everything Just Does Not Work.
or it Sort Of Works.
or It Worked In Our Lab, You Must Be Doing Something Wrong.
Not about Linux! (Score:5, Insightful)
It's about opening up the market to other competitors. Another Beos? Another OS/2? There is no reason why there should be only two OS available for computers, one of them only managing to still stick around because it's free (in both senses).
There is no operating system market. Unbundling windos is about re-creating that market. Innovation (not only in features!) only happens in a free market. That's what this is all about.
Re:Except it costs less than free (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ubuntu's chance to shine.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Either it comes with an OS bundled, or it doesn't. If it does that OS is getting users in an anti-competitive way, if it doesn't users won't have a clue what to do with their computer.
Also face it; there's no way computers with an OS other than Windows is going to be sold by default, because everyone expects and is familiar with Windows and understands Windows applications.
People freak out enough over Vista, which other people say didn't have enough changes; imagine someone handling a new OS with all different software that won't run their old software. Forget it, come back in a decade after a long weaning process and maybe the "debate" will be worth a look.
Re:But then ... (Score:4, Insightful)
Only if every man and his dog makes similar hardware to run the same software as all their competitors.
The fact is that Apple is primarily a hardware company. They stated on many occasions in the past that they wanted to usurp the position once held by Sony. I think we can all agree they've pretty much kicked Sony's corporate backside in that regard of recent times.
To elaborate further, apple are a hardware company that uses the uniqueness of their software in order to sell their hardware.
The beauty of apple products is in the user interface. Since no other manufacturer is able (for whatever reason) to match the quality of apples various user interfaces apple is able to monopolise the sales of the hardware required to obtain their "superior" interfaces. If they were to sell OSX (or indeed the iPod OS) to any Tom Dick or Harry with a commodity hardware PC then they would lose their ability to monopolise the sales of the hardware needed to obtain their superior interface.
If you don't think Jobs doesn't understand this then you're a fool.
"If I were Jobs I would spin off the hardware into a separate company."
If you were Steve Jobs then apple would now only be found in the history books alongside the likes of CBM and atari. This is exactly what the Pepsi guy tried to do in the 80's and it almost sent apple bust.
Re:Not about Linux! (Score:3, Insightful)
This is not about what has more value to the customer, because the customer doesn't ever have that choice. Aside from the tiny minority of geeks we around here represent, every damn computer comes pre-loaded with an OS and your choice boils down to "Vista or XP" now, and "XP or NT/2k" before that, and "98 or ME" before that, and so on.
And I think the "crippling" argument has been slashed, cut, shot, burnt and cremated about 5 years ago, so let's just have a few seconds of silence for the poor straw man.