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Comments: 184 +-   Michael Meeks On ODF and OOXML on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:05PM

Posted by kdawson on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:05PM
from the down-with-clippy dept.
linuxbusiness
software
biscuitfever11 writes "ZDNet has up a great interview with Michael Meeks, the distinguished Novell engineer, who's currently deeply involved in open document format and OpenOffice.org. In the interview, Meeks takes Microsoft to task on its alternative format OOXML and argues that Microsoft should adopt ODF — but says that realistically they never will. He also mentions his favorite example to explain the benefits of open source software to a nontechnical person: the flexibility of open source would have allowed us to free ourselves from Clippy, the world's most despised paperclip, by changing a single line of code."
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  • by LiquidCoooled (634315) on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:08PM (#20797239) Homepage Journal
    Given half a chance the OSS world would probably have neded up patching Office with:

    ' remove MS cruft:
    ' AssistantLoad "clippy.acs"
    AssistantLoad "Tux.acs"

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        had it been say OpenOffice you could add a theme to restore the old look and optimize the code by either compiling it or taking out unneeded features to make it be faster.

        Yet everytime somebody talks about thebenefits of OS everubody uses the woruls *COULD*. Yes, you *could* do that, but you knoe any normal persson/busnes with the right knowlege/time/money in their hands to make such a hugh and potentially dangerous customization? Hell, I'll better pay for a closed source solution in that case. The quest

        • by Jimmy King (828214) on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:53PM (#20797579) Homepage Journal
          The post you replied to made no mention of the average user customizing that stuff. He said large businesses. Most large businesses put their own images on computers with specific combinations of software and modify/skin commercial software when applicable frequently write their own tools to do things like migrate users to a new computer without losing personal data or deploy images and software. A build of open office or any other OSS app compiled with their preferred flags to configure or their preferred skin/theme on an app is well within the realm of reality at these places.

          For example, years ago when I worked for Best Buy, the techs used a fairly standard trouble ticket and inventory app (I'll be damned if I can remember the name), but it was rebranded as "STAR" by best buy and integrated with the POS software to a certain extent. I later worked at Capital One where they used the exact same application by it's normal name, but highly modified the interface to their needs (which Best Buy also almost surely did). We had a scripted tool built around some user migration tools MS provides to move user data from one computer to another. At the place I work now we use a modified Bugzilla and we're far from a large company. And as already mentioned, pretty much every large company has their own custom images for computers with software packages and versions that have been tested and verified to work together.
        • by Ajehals (947354) <andyhalsall AT ictsc DOT com> on Saturday September 29 2007, @08:10PM (#20797685) Homepage Journal

          Hell, I'll better pay for a closed source solution in that case.
          That's only true of your propriety software does what the open source software could potentially do.

          The whole kernel hacking grandma is a misnomer when it comes to company's, even small ones, mainly because they either have access to technical experience, or they aren't getting even close to the most out of their IT systems (FOSS or Proprietary).

          You have small organisations that tend to use stuff "out of the box", which basically means they don't. nor have the expertise to, use the more useful features within the software they already own. Things like Windows Update Server, Remote Installation Services, Active Directory, Print Servers, IIS, it all gets ignored, at best you might have a file server and a load of desktops. So in that instance they would benefit from some IT expertise regardless of whether they are using FOSS or not *and* if they need to grab someone with IT experience anyway then they could replace windows with an open OS and see many benefits, without modifying a single piece of code.

          These small organisations wouldn't even consider looking at bespoke proprietary software, and the normal COTS products wont be perfect for them, so its not like they lose anything moving to OSS, and they can gain rather a huge amount, not to mention the fact that many small (as in cheap enough for SME's) software packages from less well known vendors are not exactly very good to begin with, all those crappy PHP CMS's et al you see in the OSS world also exist in proprietary land, except there you need to pay for them, and you cant fix them yourself.

          So how do you get the benefits of a working complete, comprehensive secure and stable system, whilst still having a large amount of choice *and* the ability to get modifications made if you wish (and at a more reasonable price than having something custom made/faster than having a vendor provide a patch)? Easy use OSS software. It gives choice, doesn't stop you using proprietary software where it is best, doesn't lock you in and best of all doesn't inhibit growth due to licensing costs, and scalability issues.

          If you do switch, don't do it everywhere at once if you don't want to (don't do some bits at all if you prefer), a gradual transition is possible, and probably easier. That leaves you with a choice. Oh and get someone to do it for you or with you, (that goes for an OSS or a MS based system, IT systems can make such a huge difference to a company that it is worthwhile contacting your local IT people, or even better a local college and trying to get someone to help you out. Any small business that goes down the 100% MS route will find itself without any *viable* options at all a short way down the road.

          Having said all the above I should point out that I would find it extremely difficult to put myself into a non IT literate company owners shoes and figure out what I would see as best, I would guess choice stability, reliability, scalability, security etc.. would be good, but sometimes you just want to be able to point out you spent X thousands on a new IT system over lunch, and make your friends jealous.
        • So how much does Microsoft pay you for these semi-coherent rants? Or are you a true mental retard, and doing it for free?
  • Well (Score:2, Insightful)

    There is no need to change one line of code for that. My mom never could do that, nor could 3/4 of the population. That's why there is Options-Help-Don't use office asistent. Nothing is black and white. there is a lot of gray there in between and while OS is a completly good and fair option, commercial software is a completly good and fair option as well. Both have their advantages and disadventages, and OS id not the paradise, nor is commercial software the hell....
    • Your mom might never change one line of code - but she sure as heck could manage to download code from someone who CAN program. I don't use NeoOffice on the Mac because I was able to hack the OpenOffice.org code to run on the Mac - I use it because some other industrious people did.

      If, say, WordPerfect were open source I could very likely be using it today on OS X... instead, it's dead on the Mac, and so I have a painful time whenever I need to open one of my old WordPerfect files. Microsoft Office and Wind
    • "That's why there is Options-Help-Don't use office asistent[sic]."
      I think you missed the point.
      I turned off the office assistant numerous times.
      It always managed to pop back up eventually.
      If someone could have changed a couple of lines of code and compiled it for me so the assistant would stay off, I would have appreciated it.
  • by Gothmolly (148874) on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:12PM (#20797273)
    I'll put on my Executive Hat here: "So Open Source is good for removing features, gotcha." Arguing about turning off Clippy not necessarily a shining example of why OSS is good. Things like zero-day exploits, internationalization, and no per server (or VM!!!) costs are what will make people adopt OSS.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      It's not meant to be a legitimate example. It is meant as an example your average computer user can understand and relate to.
    • I'll put on my Executive Hat
      Aight, I put on my robe and wizard hat.
  • by bjourne (1034822) on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:13PM (#20797277)
    is the one Metacity uses. The patch to remove that one is also only a few lines, but I have yet to see a non-technical person manage to do that. The great advantages of free software aren't technical, they are social. People working together for a common good because it is fun is a more efficient economic system than the one in which you do it to get a paycheck. Imagine what would happen if the rest of the world where also structured like free software communities?
    • Set /apps/metacity/general/reduced_resources to true in gconf. Turns off the other useless eyecandy too.
      • but I buy MS Office at work every couple of years because I won't have to request a new training budget when I do so.
        Citation needed that the retraining from Microsoft Office 2003 to OpenOffice.org 2.x is bigger than the retraining from Microsoft Office 2003 to Microsoft Office 2007's tabbed toolbar.
        • MSOffice 2007 costs:
          #1. MSOffice 2007 for each person.
          #2. MSOffice 2007 training for each person.
          #3. MSOffice 2007 deployment to each person.

          OpenOffice.org costs:
          #1. OOo deployment to each person.

          With MSOffice 2007, due to the default file format issue, EVERYONE has to get it AT THE SAME TIME. Or they won't be able to open the documents that other people are creating. And they all have to be trained to use it. And it has to be rolled out to all of them.

          And all that within the same short time frame.

          With Open
  • Clippy (Score:5, Insightful)

    by SamP2 (1097897) on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:14PM (#20797295)
    Last time I checked you can disable Clippy in 10 seconds from the Office Options menu, without the need to find the right line, remove it, and recompile. Anyone who is not capable of clicking Tools->Options and checking off a checkmark would not be capable of editing the code either.

    Not being anti-OOS in any way, and there are many instances when editing a few lines WOULD make a difference in the usefulness of software (Windows Firewall sure comes to mind), but this is not one of them. Sorry.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      > Last time I checked you can disable Clippy in 10 seconds from the Office Options menu

      Young padawan, this is an option that has been added after several *years* of impossible to disable clippy.
  • Clippy! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:15PM (#20797299)
    It looks like you're writing code to remove me!
  • summing up OSS (Score:4, Insightful)

    by abigsmurf (919188) on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:21PM (#20797351)
    "the flexibility of open source would have allowed us to free ourselves from Clippy, the world's most despised paperclip, by changing a single line of code."

    This is also a prime example of where OSS fails too. How many basic users would be able to even compile a version with the altered code, let alone alter the codes themselves? Heck even finding a specific "no clippy" version among a variety of differently configured distributions could prove too taxing. Microsoft's approach to clippy is that if you hide it 3 times in general usage it'll present a user with an option to turn it off and it'll never appear again (provided you've a well configured server). An "if you don't like it, change it" approach simply isn't as effective as good interface usability testing when you're dealing with a userbase comprised of vastly different skill levels.
    • How many basic users would be able to even compile a version with the altered code

      A better question would be "how many linux distribution would ship a version with the altered code". It is the job of the distribution to fix minor annoyances like this depending on what its users want.
    • everyone doesn't compile OSS software themselves
  • But couldn't you free yourself from the Evil Clippy with a single click of a checkbox? He could make that analogy better and more current by saying "You know the 65535 issue? Programmers could find that and help fix it rather than waiting however long for an official patch"
    • I turned it off several times.
      It always managed to eventually pop back up.
      • See, told you I'm not Capt. Office. Oh well. I guess "We could have figured out why the checkbox turning clippy off didn't work". Doesn't have the same ring to it.
  • by KiloByte (825081) on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:43PM (#20797511)
    The format war is the main reason why most people stick with MS Office. And well... let's take a look at Microsoft's balance sheets [microsoft.com].

    So, "Microsoft adopting ODF"? Or even "Microsoft not sabotaging ODF plugins"? No freaking way.
  • by Zombie Ryushu (803103) on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:57PM (#20797613)
    As much as I'd love an injunction saying that MS must make its DOCX File format readable by other Office suites, and it must produce a plugin for OO.org to open it NOW. We are screwed. MS already has Office 2007 out in the wild, and I'm starting to get .docx files I can't open in OO.org. There's only one reason this was done, OO.org is so good at opening Docs it started to threaten Office. It doesn't matter if whether OOXML gets certified, its going to be up to OO.org to reverse engineer it as fast as possible or it will make everyone cry blood.

    By the way, what do you think the result will be in a year when we start seeing Samba 4 AD? MS will attack again with even harsher resolve/.
    • By the way, what do you think the result will be in a year when we start seeing Samba 4 AD?
      I wouldn't be surprised to see a patent lawsuit. It'd be disappointing, but not surprising.
    • When you get a .docx file you can't read, you say the same thing Office 2003 users say... "I can't open DOCX files, send it in DOC". The only difference is that Office 2k3 has Office 2k7 format plugins, but really, only the people who already know about them are probably going to be finding and using them.

      Furthermore, considering that OOXML is basically Office 2k3 formats converted to plaintext and zipped up, I'd have thought there would ALREADY be support in OO.org by now... at least, soon. OOXML was m

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            That would have depended on the changes they proposed...
            Any proposed changes would have been evaluated, and if the different vendors reached a consensus that the changes provided a valid benefit, then they would have been accepted.
            Many of the garbage that microsoft put into ooxml would probably have been rejected, because it provides no benefit to end users or any vendor except microsoft. Similarly, any requirements without full implementation details would have been rejected.
  • Unfortunately this clippy example is more showing how open source could be great. Right now, in OpenOffice, there is by default clippy activated! (of course it's not called 'clippy', it's called 'help agent'.) So, no, even open source is affected by clippy. Either human kind is doomed, or open source community is very tricky to understand.

    Well, at least the OpenOffice clippy hasn't told me anything so far. It's just there, on the bottom of my screen smiling and cheerfully eating up a little bit of the mem

  • by Zebra_X (13249) on Saturday September 29 2007, @09:39PM (#20798139)
    "the flexibility of open source would have allowed us to free ourselves from Clippy, the world's most despised paperclip, by changing a single line of code."

    Or.... like every other user in the world - just turn, clippy, off.

    Code changes are not always a solution.
    • Re:Okay... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Salsaman (141471) on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:40PM (#20797479) Homepage
      Nice try at misdirection, troll, but the squabbling is over. ODF has already been accepted as an ISO standard, and is already supported by all of the following groups:

      http://www.odfalliance.org/members.php#viewall [odfalliance.org]

      Now perhaps you would care to answer the original question: why are two standards better than one ?
    • As an individual in a position to make buying decisions based on this sort of thing, this is exactly what turns me off to ODF and other "community" technologies.

      If you've been employed in a position to make buying decisions and you don't understand why open formats are valuable, your HR department should be sacked.

    • You seem to be confusing the difference between a standard and software. An OSI standard isn't exactly going to be changing very often and especially not if the group is "collapsing from internal quibbling." You also don't buy standards (unless you're Microsoft).

      Now if there was an office suite that had 100% of the market, that would be prone to collapsing due to internal quibbling. However the beauty of open standards is that anyone, open and closed, can produce an office suite that utilizes the standard.
    • Can you tell me what company you work for? I just want to make sure I never invest in a company run by a guy who thinks like you.

      If your boss will fire you because a network card failed the business is doomed.
        • Huh? (Score:5, Interesting)

          by khasim (1285) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Saturday September 29 2007, @07:47PM (#20797549)

          I have no way of proving it one way or another, but I'll say it again: I make buying decisions. I have access to two $25,000 lines of credit and one $10,000 line of credit and I make purchasing decisions for a 164 employee company (primarily related to replacing user PCs and web/database/file servers).

          So, $60,000. For 164 person company.

          We're a little over a 100 people and we spend over $500,000 a year on a single contract.

          Every time I chicken out because the simple fact is, as much as I like Apache and OOo, I won't get blamed when IIS or Office fail.

          Why would Apache "fail"?

          And why would anyone not directly involved in it even know what you're running?

          Like I said elsewhere in this thread, until I get to hire/fire the guy who makes the buying decisions, I can't really influence it all that much.

          But you said, and I quote "I make buying decisions".

          Five years ago I had a high profile account here where I supported OOS, but now that I'm in IT management, I realize that it's the non-technical executives that are really holding OSS back. It's sad, but it's true.

          Noooooo...... What is "holding OSS back" is the fact that all those companies have LARGE investments in their current systems.

          It takes a LONG time for companies to migrate from something that is working TODAY that they know how to support TODAY and that has been paid for TODAY.

          Regardless of the internal quibbling at MS or other closed corps, they're established, and that carries and awful lot of weight, as unfair as it may be.

          That depends upon what you mean by "established".

          Microsoft has a MONOPOLY. Therefore, they are going to be around for a LONG time.

          People will continue to buy from Microsoft because it is what they know and what they use and what works.

          Free software (as in speech) will be taken up by non-US governments and such. It's easier to pitch a change there when you can show $X (or whatever the local medium of exchange is) being sent to Redmond, Washington, USofA instead of into the local economy.
          • Re:Huh? (Score:4, Interesting)

            by Acrimonymous (1164185) on Saturday September 29 2007, @08:04PM (#20797659) Homepage Journal

            We're a little over a 100 people and we spend over $500,000 a year on a single contract.

            That's a rolling budget that I have access to without having to submit pre-approved expenditures for. It's primarily used for replacing user PCs, phones, etc, which is why I mentioned it here. I can request as much as I want, I just don't always get it. For example, we moved to SAM-FS last year for recovery and it cost us a pretty penny thanks to a subsidiary that has an assload of data, but I had to request pre-approval for the expenditure.

            Why would Apache "fail"?


            Ah, yes, the hubris of the OSS community... forgot to mention that.

            Apache can "fail" for many reasons. Your excessively technical question suggests to me that you're not very involved in the business. Regardless of why apache "fails" - be it because of some flaw in the program or because of a simple hardware failure - if apache is new apache is blamed. This is just how it is, unfair as it may be. I inherited IIS from my predecesor (who was, admittedly, clueless) and I won't risk my job switching to apache. The simple fact is that 99% of the failures in IIS can be patched or solved with a reboot and I come out the other side looking better for "fixing" the problem.

            Perverse? You betcha. But I'm not a big enough man to risk my career for a technological principle, is what it all comes down to.

            Again: when I'm the guy who's hiring for the position I'm in, we'll make some changes. Until then?

            Not a bloody chance.

            What is "holding OSS back" is the fact that all those companies have LARGE investments in their current systems.


            You'd be surprised. We deal one-on-one with a lot of businesses and I can't see too many of them running their own vertical apps. That being the case, most of them could switch to OSS/ODF with minimal effort and a moderate investment in training, they just choose not to for the same reasons I won't switch my people: if it goes wrong, I take the blame from higher-ups and I'm the one who's out of a job.

            • Huh? x2 (Score:4, Insightful)

              by khasim (1285) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Saturday September 29 2007, @08:37PM (#20797817)

              That's a rolling budget that I have access to without having to submit pre-approved expenditures for. It's primarily used for replacing user PCs, phones, etc, which is why I mentioned it here.

              You cannot forecast when to replace PC's? And you have 160+ users?

              Huh?
              Huh?

              Even at 100+ users, we lease our workstations and replace them every 3 years. It's a known cycle and they're under warranty. Not to mention that there aren't any surprises for Accounting for the next 3 years.

              Ah, yes, the hubris of the OSS community... forgot to mention that.

              Yeah, maybe you could just answer the question, okay?

              Apache can "fail" for many reasons.

              Yeah, maybe you could just answer the question, okay?

              Your excessively technical question suggests to me that you're not very involved in the business.

              Yeah, the question, care to answer it?

              Regardless of why apache "fails" - be it because of some flaw in the program or because of a simple hardware failure - if apache is new apache is blamed.

              How would they KNOW it was Apache? You haven't answered that question, either.

              This is just how it is, unfair as it may be.

              I didn't ask if it was "unfair".
              I asked how Apache would "fail" and how they'd even know that it was Apache.

              You have not answered either of those questions.

              I inherited IIS from my predecesor (who was, admittedly, clueless) and I won't risk my job switching to apache.

              Seeing as how you cannot answer either of those questions and you think $60,000 is a lot of money for a business and you cannot even forecast workstation purchases .....

              I've been deploying Linux throughout the company I work at. And no one can tell the difference. As long as the service is available, they're happy.

              Here's a free clue. Hardware fails. Real professions know this and have already taken steps to mitigate such failures. If a drive dies on your Apache server, the end users should not ever know about it.

              If you're claiming that they'll be complaining about running Apache when that happens ... you've already failed at your job.
              • You cannot forecast when to replace PC's? And you have 160+ users?

                I don't think you know what you're talking about.

                We have a LINE OF CREDIT with certain companies that we use to REPLACE or UPGRADE phones and PCs. Beyond that, I have to submit a budget and it has to be approved. I've done this in three different companies, so I'm thinking this is perfectly normal.

                Yeah, maybe you could just answer the question, okay?

                You're just being a dickhead for the sake of it. It doesn't matter why apache "fails". If the

                • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

                  If the network card goes down, then "apache fails" as far as 125 people are concerned and if I'm the guy who suggested we use apache, it's my fault. I'm not dissing apache, I'm just pointing out the fact that I'm the guy who will get blamed if it's not accesible

                  If you're not competent to set up fallover support on a webserver so it'll cope with a dying hardware component, it is your fault, and you should be blamed if it's not "accesible"[sic].

                  The picture I'm getting here is that incompetent admins LIKE

                  • by khasim (1285) <brandioch.conner@gmail.com> on Saturday September 29 2007, @10:18PM (#20798373)
                    My email server (Linux + Exim4 + SpamAssassin + ClamAV + chroot'ed BIND9) has over 600 days of contiguous uptime. And it's being hit every day by crackers from all over the world.

                    Any competent admin can keep IIS running. Any competent admin can keep Apache running.

                    And NONE of the users would even KNOW what webserver was running. My users don't know that I'm running Exim4. They don't know that ClamAV blocks the viruses. They only care about the SERVICE. And they're very happy with the service.

                    If you have to reboot IIS to get "kudos", then you're incompetent. That is all.

                    Competent admins get "kudos" for helping the end users perform their jobs faster and/or easier and for fixing the "I accidentally deleted an important document" problems.
                • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                  Lemme just step in right here. I don't think he's being a dickhead for the sake of being a dickhead. You're talking about two systems that purportedly do the same thing, but one of them is ridiculously flexible where the other one will only work on certain hardware, one is free whereas the other costs money, one is maintained by a vigilant community that fixes bugs quickly most of the time and the other one is maintained by an entrenched monopoly with no reason to improve itself. Also, in my own experience

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        As you say, OpenOffice.org is easy to download for Windows (and all the "easy" Linux distros have precompiled packages that you can download with a few mouse clicks; if you're using a distro where you have to compile it yourself, you probably already can handle stuff like that). But thanks to Microsoft's weaselly behaviour, it'll almost certainly never be able to render OOXML documents exactly as per MS Office. The specification is incomplete (it makes frequent references to Microsoft internal documents
It's reassuring to know that if you behave strangely enough, society will take full responsibility for you.