Walt Mossberg Reviews Ubuntu 642
sciurus0 writes "Mainstream technology journalist Walt Mossberg recently reviewed an Inspiron 1420N with Ubuntu installed by Dell. Citing problems such as an oversensitive touchpad and poor multimedia support, he suggests that 'from the point of view of an average user, someone who wouldn't want to enter text commands, hunt the Web for drivers and enabling software, or learn a whole new user interface' Ubuntu isn't a good choice compared to Windows or OS X."
This is something new? (Score:4, Insightful)
My wife has a Dell laptop and while the touchpad isn't sensitive the little nodule in the middle of the keyboard is while running XP! She doesn't use either of those though, she uses an external mouse so I guess neither matters to her.
Everyone with any sense knows that Linux isn't a great choice compared to Windows or OS X for those that don't want to learn a new UI (or anything else he said) as I've discussed here numerous times before to the pro-Linux troll mods' joy. Linux is a great option if you're not interested in additional cost, vendor lock-in, and attempts by a corporation to invade your personal privacy and choice due to their licensing allowances while covering it up with vague non-sense.
I will continue to run Windows and OS X on my desktop machines until any of the Linux distributions mature enough to match what's available on the Windows platform (which will probably never come unfortunately) and I will continue to trust Linux as my network server -- happily chugging along for years at a clip without as much as a hiccup.
Reviews make Linux stronger (Score:5, Insightful)
These reviews will only make Linux stronger.
For the non-RTFA folks (Score:5, Insightful)
Mossberg isn't just dumping on Linux or open source. He generally likes the idea of OSS:
Rather, he notes some average-user-level problems with Ubuntu (simple things like video, audio, and mouse issues). He's talking about usability by people who don't read Slashdot and are not related to (or dating) someone who DOES read Slashdot.
Of course, he still thinks that "the Apple iMac as the best consumer desktop computer on the market." And we all know the iMac is horrible to use and support!
Re:Your Citizenship Has Been Cancelled (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:How far we've come (Score:5, Insightful)
That's great, but it's 2007 now.
Fair enough. (Score:1, Insightful)
My brother is a semi-techie who's always been interested in Linux. I realized that for the past few years, I've always been pretty sure that the *next* release of Ubuntu would be just what he's looking for. But...
The ACPI and driver issues just never seem to really go away. Doing an "apt-get upgrade" doesn't always leave the system in a 100% functional state. Etc. So I'm starting to think that Linux distros will rarely or never have the same degree of polish that Apple, and in some ways M$, achieve.
Will I ever be able to recommend Linux to a semi-/non-techie without reservation? I'm starting to wonder.
Over sensitive mouse? (Score:1, Insightful)
There's no helping people who can't figure that out.
You can't deny it (Score:5, Insightful)
I've said it elsewhere, I've said it here; licensing MP3 would be a good start for Ubuntu. They can certainly afford it, and the US MP3 patents are only valid until 2012, so it'd cost at most $250,000 to essentially get permanent MP3 support.
Re:He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
I think his point is that he shouldn't have had to.
Re:Reviews make Linux stronger (Score:2, Insightful)
Whilst reviews are great, it would have been nice if he could've asked a simple question about this on the ubuntu forum - I guess Windows users aren't used to the option of doing that.
A good sign. (Score:4, Insightful)
You should listen to this man (Score:1, Insightful)
Keep working on that install, and perhaps instead of having to type in the command for something. Distribute an ICON ON THE DESKTOP that installs the media copy righted stuff so newbie users can watch CNN etc...
He is correct. Linux is still too hard for say your 50+ year old mother to install. Not impossible, but people are like water, they take the path of least resistance every time.
Re:For the non-RTFA folks (Score:5, Insightful)
That is something that anyone looking at this article needs to consider. What Robert X. Cringely is to geeks, this guy is to the MBA crew. Consider the audience when considering the work.
Re:To be fair ... (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't matter if the issues are legal or technological; if something doesn't work, it's an issue.
Re:Your Citizenship Has Been Cancelled (Score:5, Insightful)
I would love the average user to be technically savvy enough to install and use Linux, any distro. It would eliminate a lot of problems we all face. The technically savvy user would be able to keep their equipment cleaner from mal-ware and would be a lot more vocal about quality control of software products.
These kind of articles are what the Linux community needs. We need to have non-enthusiasts evaluate the distro, and then correct the problems. It's amazingly easy to get into the habit of understanding that an issue, or a kludge exists, work around it, and have it become so ubiquitous that we forget it's even there.
On the other hand, if we want to remain the elite minority, it's easy. Flame these kinds of articles and ignore the wants and needs of the non-elite majority. We'll stay Elite, holier than them, and a minority.
Re:To be fair ... (Score:5, Insightful)
You're missing the point. Average users shouldn't have to go to law school to figure out why their software doesn't work. Legal issues concerning codecs are irrelevant to users. Either the product works, or it doesn't. In this aspect, the product does not work.
Underwhelming surprise. (Score:5, Insightful)
Armed with that knowledge, he goes out to write a column about:
So, what do I mean when I say Ubuntu is too rough around the edges for average users?
Apparently, though it is "too rough" it is not rough enough to keep the uninitiated away despite warnings precisely to that effect, which is a damned sight more interesting by itself than the litany of peeves he enumerates.
Re:How far we've come (Score:5, Insightful)
None of which typically applied to a brand-new out of the box computer with Windows Pre-installed. What Walt was reviewing was a laptop provided by Dell with Ubuntu pre-installed by Dell. All of us Linux fans have been saying that the only fair comparison between Windows and Linux would be on machines with the OS pre-installed. We now have that situation, and Walt has some very valid criticism. Although I don't think the need to download new CODECs is all that severe, the poor video performance, problems with the touchpad and the crashing volume control applet are absolutely unacceptable for a pre-install.
What's Not To Like? (Score:5, Insightful)
Times change, however. Contrary to Mossburg, who, much of the time, is a very even-handed and well-informed tech columnist that really knows the ins and outs of Windows and OS X, I'd have to disagree with him here.
I've installed Ubuntu client in my Parallels virtual environment on my OS X system. I like it over the past Linux distros for several key reasons:
(1) Ubuntu (actually, GNOME) has greatly simplified its interface, "stealing" good elements from both OS X and Windows. From the Mac, a fixed menu bar at the top of the screen, and only four menus at that. Finding things is easy. From Windows, the notion of menu-launching key applications a'la the Start menu button (rather than mere commands found in OS X menus).
(2) Ubuntu has very good hardware support, but always there will be a system that doesn't like it as well. This is because of the same problem that Windows has (although Microsoft has more money and clout to throw at this problem): Hardware quality and variations in the computer world are astronomically huge. Expecting any operating system to support the myriad of PC hardware variations is just near-impossible. Ubuntu does much better, in my experience in using it, than say another GNOME interfaced-Linux, Fedora. (In fact, Fedora is pretty awful in client form.)
(3) Ubuntu has EVERYTHING that the average Joe Offthestreet needs for basic internet and home needs: A web browser (Firefox, arguably best in the biz), an office suite (OpenOffice, always trying to be something that MS Office thinks it is), a mail client (Thunderbird, a client so nice I've moved from Apple Mail to it on my OS X system) and lots of games and the like.
Software update processes are now less crazy and propellerhead, again taking the ideas from the commercial camps. Security is as good as any Unix/Linux client, and since its not Windows, spyware and viruses are not generally present here.
Ubuntu loses only in the specialized "gimme-gimme" internet needs of the youth and industry, like iTunes (doesn't exist, but good MP3 players and support for them are, although iTunes Music Store reins supreme, IMO), some specialty web features for audio or video, professional-level graphic and audio tools, and enterprise support (this problem is shared with OS X, despite my own personal and professional efforts to the opposite).
Installing further applications outside of the bundled, however, needs work. GNOME needs to expand further with, say, Apple's "package" concept of a single app in a double-clickable folder that contains all the binaries and libraries for the app. For now, Ubuntu works like many Linux clients, so third-party apps are hellish to do for the average Joe Whodoesntdo-cmdlines.
If I had a friend or family member that needed a computer (PC) but didn't want to fight the antiquation battles that MS wants to give its consumers, AND if my friend only needed to do web, email, and general office stuff, Ubuntu is a hands-down favorite.
Mossburg and others, unfortunately, may have had too much exposure to other operating systems to see things more simply. Not everyone needs an enterprise-level operating system...just one that works for them for what they need, at home.
Re:Reviews make Linux stronger (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right. If I have to go to a forum to get basic functionality of a brand new product working right out of the box, that product gets returned. Having to get "support" for a new product means that that product is broken.
Re:To be fair ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Is this a fancy way of saying he's an average user? Your average user isn't going to know anything about the legal issues surrounding codecs on Linux. All they know is that on Windows and OSX their media files play fine right after installing the OS. The habit of calling new users idiots and blowing them off saying "RTFM" is one of the things that's stunted Linux adoption on the desktop.
By his "logic", Windows is not ready for anyone. Try getting an iPod to work on it without installing software.
An iPod comes with software and instructions that make it ready and easy to install on Windows/OSX. I certainly doubt there are any instructions in an iPod box that deal with installing it on your favorite Linux distro. Which means of course that you end up online searching Google for how to use your iPod with Linux. This is one of his (legitimate) gripes. In fairness it's not a gripe with Linux so much as it is with the lack of manufacturer support, but for users this is one in the same.
Re:To be fair ... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Simple stuff (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:To be fair ... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:To be fair ... (Score:3, Insightful)
does XP "not work" because it cant play h.264 out of the box?
Usability and Culture (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem that Linux has is that it's written by wildly disparate groups of people with different ideas about how an OS should work from a user perspective. The strength of Linux is that it's written by wildly disparate groups of people with different ideas about how an OS should work from a technical perspective.
It's perfectly possible to make a UNIX OS be usable by the masses -- Apple's done that with OS X. The difference is that Apple "cheats" -- they only support a certain range of hardware, all of which is a known quantity to them. They're not dealing with the issues of a Frankencomputer made from whatever bits of hardware happen to show up.
The only way to get Linux as a mass-use OS is to user test the living hell out of it. That means a continual process of refactoring so that the user never has to view the command line unless they really want to. That means making sure that every application follows a consistent HIG. That means that the first person who says something along the lines of "RTFA" gets canned.
What matters isn't technical excellence, but a culture of usability. The Linux subculture is still based around the hacker ethics -- and that's why Linux remains an OS primarily for people who enjoy compiling programs and manipulating settings. That has to change. The culture needs to be one of taking a critical look at every stage in the process and presenting the user with a set of simple and consistent choices that let people use their computers rather than worrying about getting their machine in a usable state. Ubuntu's leaning in that direction, but they still have a long way to go.
The problem is that changing a culture is a hell of a lot harder than just writing software. A culture in which people are expected to navigate the Internet looking for answers will keep Linux marginalized. A culture that says "this problem is too complicated and needs to be simplified so that the average user gets it" is a culture that can take Linux to the mainstream. Not only that, but it encourages technical development as well -- a good number of the reasons for unnecessary complexity is because there are unnecessary complications in the way a piece of code works. At the end of the day, a solution that's simple for the user is often simple at the code level as well.
I've been using Linux for a decade now, and Ubuntu is a great distro -- but it still isn't enough. The only way that Linux will get mainstream acceptance is when Linux developers start consciously thinking about the overall user experience. It isn't the code that's the problem, it's the culture, and looking for technological solutions to cultural problems doesn't work -- just look at what Microsoft is trying to do with its current strategy.
Re:How far we've come (Score:3, Insightful)
Linux is really awesome for certain uses, but it lacks the fit and polish of an OS that's had hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars spent on smoothing out rough edges and strongarming hardware makers.
The sad thing is that Linux has been "almost there" for years, but the reasons why its not "there" yet is as much about the hardcore factions who do their damnedest to create a hostile environment for businesses and non-techies as it is about any minor technical rough edges.
- Greg
Re:Reviews make Linux stronger (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:shocking!! (Score:3, Insightful)
Computers are not a magic, mind reading, fix everything in one click device. This guy expects everything to work out of the box perfectly and to his specs.
Not even windows machines do that. In comparison, it takes a fair bit of configuring out of the box to even get a windows machine ready for safe internet access.
"the vast majority of computer users" (Score:3, Insightful)
It appears that the "vast majority of computer users" are the same ones who are so incompetent that they have surpassed viruses themselves as a source of affliction.
The "vast majority of computer users" need to learn how to use these complicated machines.
Instead of shooting the messenger... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not suggesting that the rank-and-file support the uninitiated, but perhaps Linux vendors can take these types of things as fielding notes to help them build a better product.
Unless Linux geeks don't actually *want* Windows users to switch... :-)
Re:This is something new? (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, I'm going to be a little hard on Linux/*NIX here, but I'm not trolling. I love linux, I'm typing this from a Linux box, so here we go.
All *NIX GUI is pretty bad (with the exception of OS X). From my opinion, there is no real difference between Gnome and KDE, and both are pretty much a combo of 80s and 90s UNIX X window managers with a strong Microsoft Windows influence. My favorite GUI environment from the late 90s was WindowMaker, which was a ripoff of NextStep.
Linux is cool from the perspective of its openness and it being based on *NIX philosopies and style. But Even Linus will tell you that Linux is nothing new, and I believe that it would take something like a startup and a bunch of cash and forethought to make a good GUI for Linux or any other *NIX (again besides OS X).
I've used FVWM, TWM, OL(V)WM, WindowMaker, Afterstep (which is how I found
It drives me up a wall that copy and paste is so inconsistant. I have to think, is it control-v, right click and use menu, middle click, shift-insert, and its common for me to get it wrong. Oh, to do page up/down, should I use page up or down keys, or shift and page up/down, or will page up and down even work? What about drag and drop? Will it work? Will it work between apps? What about a consistant Widget look and feel?
These are common GUI things from the mid 80s, but as a rank ordering from best to worst, you have OS X, Windows, and others. Windows is not that great either. The look and feel has become about as segmented as *NIX. And OS X is not perfect, but it seems clear that they have spent more time and effort with attention to these design features than anybody else.
Re:reprints without permission /w original comment (Score:3, Insightful)
He's not claiming to be an average user, he's attempting to evaluate it from their perspective.
Isn't this Dell's issue? Even under Windows, Dell tunes their OEM install.
Well, what does Free mean to you Walt?
And if there were, then it would be in violation of MPEG licensing. Good call Walt.
All red herrings.
He's not evaluating Linux, or even Ubuntu, in some abstract sense to see if it's "ready for the desktop". He's trying to determine whether Joe Schmoe could go out and buy one of these computers instead of the version with Windows.
So it doesn't matter why something doesn't work, whether it's because Dell set it up wrong, or there's an issue of Free software, or whatever, the point is it doesn't work. (Or works poorly.)
"The Ubuntu-equipped Inspiron 1420N starts at $744, but the configuration that Dell lent me for testing sells for $1,415. The same unit equipped with Windows Vista costs $1,524. The Ubuntu version includes OpenOffice, the free office suite that competes with Microsoft Office. Dell charges an added $149 for Microsoft Office."
So what is your point? That people that don't want to run Microsoft products really should because its almost the same price for the hardware?
I suspect his points are that the machine he tested costs $1415, there's a version with Windows and Office for $109 more, and you could pay another $149 for Office if you wanted.
Do you always assume people have an agenda when they write something?
Re:Over sensitive mouse? (Score:3, Insightful)
Typical Computer User: What's that you jabbering, son? Gyro-what? Is y'all from the future?
The point remains that a windowing GUI that doesn't ship with built-in support for what's rapidly becoming the most common consumer input device is fundamentally lacking. In mid September 2007, you shouldn't have to google anything or install anything to be able to fiddle with your touchpad settings.
Re:He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu (Score:4, Insightful)
Complain to Dell about the Automatix oversight, as he took what he would have bought from Dell and tried to use it, without having to become a guru first.
Low quality of software (Score:4, Insightful)
I think what we as those who produce code should focus on is the generally low quality of software and hardware. In efficiency, capabilities and interface, our software and hardware today generally is mediocre but rarely better.
If Linux improves in these areas, it will be adopted, because the price is right and its hipness factor is higher than that of Windows or Mac OS (Windows is corporate, and the Mac is associated with smug trendsters talking loudly at Starbucks).
Let's be honest about the issues facing Linux.
1. Installation sucks. Hardware support is lacking, the process is ambiguous and confusing for most users. Included in this is "Your documentation generally sucks because it's done by non-professionals."
2. Much familiar, high quality Windows software is missing. Yes, Photoshop really is better than GIMP. And Office is better than OpenOffice. Quark is better than Scribus (or inDesign).
3. People want clear, simple, fast answers to common problems, not a "fiddle with it and come back to our mailing list so we can call you stupid again."
4. Someone to call in case of emergency who can give definite answers. It's 3 AM and your taxes are due, and there's some odd problem you don't understand. You can call Microsoft and for $200 they'll fix it. For Linux?
Knowing that software generally sucks helps us stop resting on our (or Linus's) laurels and lets us realize we have a lot to do. Software is still in its infancy. It is bloated and inefficient, it often lacks capabilities for common tasks and is unreliable, and its interfaces are generally awkward and seemingly created with no understanding of how the end user works. And interoperability is still in its infancy.
What I'm saying here is that to beat Windows, you have to be better at the game of being an operating system for people who are not obsessed with computers. Tech geeks don't understand that there are other ways of earning a living that are equally as if not more legitimate (and difficult) than typing in code patterns. These people want to focus on their specialty, not yours.
As long as we are content to scorn others for not being geeks, we will not meet their needs, and so Windows will continue to triumph over us as it is doing now. We need to stop thinking everyone out there is a tech geek. Think outside of the box? Think outside of your solipsistic skulls, and realize you haven't met the needs of the average or exceptional person out there.
So... (Score:3, Insightful)
support guys but otherwise the polish is there. It may not be ready for the grandma but his review makes it sound like
Ubuntu is ready for desktop (if there is someone to custom configure it upfront).
Is there anyone working on the complete client-server install distro of Linux (something that would install a complete
Linux groupware solution on the server and Linux clients ready to talk to said server)? A complete end-to-end install
where there is no need for things like Exchange on either end.
Re:How far we've come (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Your Citizenship Has Been Cancelled (Score:3, Insightful)
My primary job at work is to maintain Linux servers and development machines. I also have a few Linux PCs and servers at home. I hate it as much as the average non-techie when I try to boot up my nice shiny new Ubuntu CD and it locks up on bootup everytime. Or when I finally get it installed and the screen is all screwed up and there are major soundcard issues and I have to debug it or search forums.
Even if we didn't care about non-tech users, who here on Slashdot enjoys dealing with problems that could have been fixed by good autodetection and clear easy configuration choices.
Re:To be fair ... (Score:2, Insightful)
That's a good question. I have no idea. Regardless of what the solution is, it's still not the consumer's problem. The consumer is buying the end product, just like anything else.
If Bic can't sell you ball point pens with ink because they're having trouble with their ink suppliers, who's going to buy Bic pens, with the idea that "It's not their fault they can't get ink. I'll just buy some empty, non-functioning ball point pens, and work around the "no ink" problem myself."? Any sane consumer will assume that the Bic product is faulty (which it is), and buy a competitor's product that does function properly.
During the pet food recalls, nobody continued to buy potentially tainted food because the manufacturer made a good faith effort to provide a good product. The reason the products were defective is irrelevant. The products were defective, and no consumer in his/her right mind is going to buy a defective product unless there is absolutely no alternative.
In 2007, an OS that doesn't play MP3 files out of the box is going to be considered by most end users as defective.
Re:If you refuse to think, why even use a computer (Score:3, Insightful)
For most people, computers are a magic box that should 'just work.' With Windows being invasive and ubiquitous, that ideal _appears_ to be achieved for most people, for a while, regardless of how broken and smelly the guts of the system are. After three years or so, viruses, bugs, and bloat lead to unstable Windows installations so people dump their systems and get new ones. This isn't how things should be, it's how they are.
In that sense, Walt's review was right on the money.
Re:You can't deny it (Score:5, Insightful)
These days, having no native MP3 support is on the level of having no native mouse support. A computer that won't run basic, standard format multimedia out of the box is about as useful and relevant as one that doesn't support a mouse out of the box.
Re:How far we've come (Score:1, Insightful)
You can talk about whatever you want. Vista's hardware support is pretty rotten at this point, which is why sales are relatively low. XP is still the gold standard for consumer desktop OS's. In 2007, I can buy a copy of Windows XP, or a computer with Windows XP, and it works. Why anybody would want to subject themselves to extra headache when acceptable alternatives are available is beyond me. I dealt with hardware issues in Windows in the 90's because there were no other good alternatives. Today, you can either use Windows XP, and start *using* your computer right out of the box, you can buy an Apple and deal with relatively extreme vendor lock-in, or you can buy a Linux or Vista box and deal with hardware headaches, a la 1996.
We're looking at this backwards... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:reprints without permission /w original comment (Score:3, Insightful)
This is a Dell laptop shipped with Ubuntu. And it was reviewed As Shipped..as in exactly how your Average User would receive it.
Your zealotism is doing no favors for the Linux community. This attitude does nothing but damage the reputation and adoptability of Linux.
Let me give you just a wee bit of proof that hopefully you'll understand: What market share of Average Users are running something other than Windows or OSX?
Ahh, but you MUST be right...
(I'll leave it to you to figure out why you're not...and to hopefully see how articles like this are actually HELPING linux)
Re:He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu (Score:4, Insightful)
Does Linux need any of this? Only if it wants to come out of the server room.
Re:Then Windows is not "working". (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The point is that Free is Free (not free). (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:MBAs (Score:3, Insightful)
the setting he needs to adjust isn't in the usual mouse control panel. you need some extra stuff (gsynaptic, i believe) to make the setting available, which dell really should have included, but didn't for whatever reason.
Perhaps he Should Avoid Windows, as well. (Score:5, Insightful)
OS-centric, or user-centric? (Score:3, Insightful)
You hit the nail on the head. Linux geeks actually do NOT want that. They still see themselves as the "computer wizards" and want to be worshipped for their magic powers. And yet, they fear a million joe users bothering them to fix their PCs. Linux geeks want everybody to be as smart as they are so Linux can be run on every computer in the world. They're OS-centric instead of being user-centric. That's their problem.
I don't care if i have to wait for the Duke Nukem Forever release date, I'd rather wait for ReactOS v1.0 (an open source WinXP clone) than switch to Linux.
Re:This is something new? (Score:3, Insightful)
Only if "cost" is counted in money. I think we need a third "Free as in..." category. Linux is free if your time is worthless, but otherwise seems to incur significant "additional" costs beyond MacOS X (and to a lesser degree Windows). At some point in your career/life you reach a point where you have and are willing to pay the money for someone else to deal with all the random whack-a-mole problems.
Ubuntu is NOT "free Microsoft Windows". (Score:3, Insightful)
And he is defining "work" as "being exactly like Microsoft Windows".
No, Ubuntu is NOT "free Microsoft Windows". And there is no reason other than him being an idiot to expect it to be.
So Ubuntu doesn't play mp3's out of the box. It DOES play
Does Windows play
Ubuntu is NOT "free Microsoft Windows". Do not expect it to be. Do not complain when it is not.
Understand WHY Ubuntu was written.
Can I legally give Ubuntu to 100 people without anyone being charged for it? Yes.
Can I do that with Microsoft Windows? No.
Re:He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu (Score:2, Insightful)
Automatix is a third-party script that can screw up your system pretty badly, and can even leave your system unbootable. The Ubuntu team in charge of the repositories has analyzed the script and found a huge number of rough measures taken by the authors (like killing dpkg), and thus it has stopped its support. Automatix is bad and does nothing Add/Remove or Synaptic can't do.
What *I* found funny is that Mossberg didn't even mention the tons of free applications that are available via Add/Remove or Synaptic... Many of the answers he was looking for (like the codecs needed to play mp3 files) are available a couple of clicks away via an idiotproof GUI.
Re:reprints without permission /w original comment (Score:3, Insightful)
And you still don't get it, or at least, refuse to admit it.
Sabotage? You are really insisting on that? You're really going to call what he reviewed an untuned version of linux and claim that as sabotage?
Ok, you tell me then. From the POV of the Average User, just what Linux pre-install SHOULD be reviewed if not a Dell laptop pre-installed with Ubuntu?
What, should he have come to you? And that would have been representative of your Average User's experience how?
Not sure what your agenda is, but whatever it is, it doesn't make sense at all.
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
Dell is shipping vanilla Ubuntu on these things. No media codecs, no accelerated drivers for nvidia cards, not even a properly configured X server. Can you imagine them doing the same with Windows? It would be a disaster.
Re:To not admit... (Score:3, Insightful)
"To not admit that Windows and OSX are easier to operate, far more user friendly is just ignorant."
Well, I've only been using Ubuntu (and linux) for a few weeks, but I find it FAR EASIER than XP (I haven't used OXS, or Vista) in most respects. I can look up new software and install at a few clicks. When one beta I installed screwed up, it didn't kill the whole system. It un-installed as easily as it installed.
Most importantly, Ubuntu seems to be have a more intuitive and better organised desktop, was much faster than Windows which seems to get slower and sloooooowwwwer (thought time will tell) and I have to say, a lot easier overall which is surprising given how much more familiar I am with XP. Compatibility is still an issue, but to say Windows is easier? Maybe in some areas, but certainly not from what I've seen so far.
Blame the industry. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
It's a win for Ubuntu (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
Pay for the codecs. There are legal [fluendo.com] options [cnr.com].
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:5, Insightful)
Somebody (meaning you) still has to pay for the license in that copy of PowerDVD after all. Windows machines don't support a lot of standard codecs out-of-the-box either. Just try playing a XviD movie on a stock PC with Windows Media Player. Oh, yeah, I remember, Windows tells me it needs to find the codec, then it fails to do so. And this is easier for a novice user because....?
I've bought a lot of Dell hardware in my career, and in general I'm pretty happy with Dell. But I agree with others here who say they just haven't done the job with their new Linux lines. Why GNOME and not KDE, a much more Windows-like desktop? Why no codecs and other multimedia support? Why no fine-tuning of the touchpad driver if that's an issue? You don't think Dell ignores issues like that when they configure their standard XP or Vista images, do you?
And, yes, if they're going to sell Linux machines then they damn well need to support them. Does that mean they may not make as much on Linux machines in the short term? Perhaps, since they'll need to build a support staff. In the longer run, they'll discover they're getting a lot fewer support calls per Linux machine than they do for Windows.
I'm not saying it'll be easy to sell Linux machines to a mass audience, but it's not impossible. It does require that the OEM put a little effort into it. If Walt there is having troubles with his trackpad, whose fault is that? Hint, it's not Canonical's.
Oh, and it wouldn't hurt to bundle Firefox, Thunderbird, and OpenOffice on those Windows machines you sell either, Mr. Dell.
Re:Ubuntu is NOT "free Microsoft Windows". (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, but if someone is coming from Windows and wants to try Linux, what on earth does
As has been said in other posts, you have absolutely missed the point.
Seems OK to me (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd rather see the mass public have something with those features taken care of than to keep answering the same questions regarding codecs, etc.
Some people posted on the list about various useful websites for documentation or utilities like Automatcix for installing stuff, the only problem is those things are not in the standard install so if Linux was suddenly 'general public popular' (be scared) we would be having to post again and again all these things because they are not something that is easy for the average user to figure out or find.
Recently I was looking for a good noob guide to Linux and the various OSS licenses (up to date and no really big long winded paragraphs with legal talk or platform bashing) and didn't really find any good ones. A lot of this is the 'well we already know that stuff already' mentality that is throughout the entire computer industry (i.e. "How do I take a snapshot of a Mac screen?" everyone who's been with a Mac for a decade knows but there is no easy guide for the new Mac people.)
I for one don't mind the situation as it is - cause once the 'AOL nation' moves to Linux we have the same problems MS has with Windows, "consumer lock-in", a lot of people keeping you from getting new/necessary work done because of fear that their old Apps don't start up any more (either rightly so or not). I figure there are are probably still some adjustments coming down the pipe before we want EVERYONE to depend on Linux to have it in wide use - too early makes fixing some problems a lot more difficult.
Re:Usability and Culture (Score:3, Insightful)
You (and many others) are overstating the problem.
There is no significant gap in practical usability between Windows Vista, Mac OS X, and Ubuntu. There are some specific sore points (oh noes, you have to click "Ok" twice to play an MP3 the first time) and a hell of a lot of resistance to change.
Any person or company who wants to run Ubuntu on their desktop(s) can do so today - with almost exactly as much effort as it takes to switch from Windows to a Mac. Some hardware and peripherals may be unsupported and need to be replaced with supported hardware (which is readily available). The user may need to learn some new applications and/or work flows. That's basically it.
The only real problem with Ubuntu is this: People overestimate the conversion and retraining costs and underestimate the benefits because they personally don't want to have to learn anything new or change any business processes that seem to work.
Re:You can't deny it (Score:3, Insightful)
But because it IS being pushed there, and reviewed there, and compared there, you're entirely wrong; it's not an apples to oranges comparison.
The user buys a computer. It has Linux on it. Or it has Windows on it. Or it has OSX on it. They don't know the difference, they don't know where it came from, they probably don't know what open source is, they probably don't know how much the OS costs. They bought the PC and they expect it to do what they want.
It's all well and good to talk about free versus giant corporation, but when your average joe buys a PC, they don't know or care about any of that. This is what makes it a fair comparison. As long as they're being sold in the same manner to the same market, they must be compared by the same standards.
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:2, Insightful)
Don't you think with the huge volume discounts Dell gets that this may very well be what is happening?
Somebody (meaning you) still has to pay for the license in that copy of PowerDVD after all.
Dell resells PowerDVD, making a profit. Linux though has nothing to resell, so it would either have to eat the cost, or raise the price (and then hear complaints from Linux zealots that because Linux is free, it should be cheaper than Windows).
Windows machines don't support a lot of standard codecs out-of-the-box either. Just try playing a XviD movie on a stock PC with Windows Media Player. Oh, yeah, I remember, Windows tells me it needs to find the codec, then it fails to do so. And this is easier for a novice user because....?
They support MP3, WMA, WMV, AVI, MPG, etc. though, which hits most I would say. I never said getting the xvid codec would be something an end user would do. I'm not convienced its something an end user would even know about though, because I've only ever seen it for videos which may not be licensed properly.
I've bought a lot of Dell hardware in my career, and in general I'm pretty happy with Dell. But I agree with others here who say they just haven't done the job with their new Linux lines. Why GNOME and not KDE, a much more Windows-like desktop? Why no codecs and other multimedia support? Why no fine-tuning of the touchpad driver if that's an issue? You don't think Dell ignores issues like that when they configure their standard XP or Vista images, do you?
Perhaps because their cost analysis says it would be more than could be recovered. No one has to configure extra codecs for Windows, most of the ones users needs are there. I don't know why they didn't choose KDE, perhaps the distro is a GNOME one? I don't know. As for the touch pad sensitivity, well that is just one guy's opinion. It may be just fine for most.
And, yes, if they're going to sell Linux machines then they damn well need to support them. Does that mean they may not make as much on Linux machines in the short term? Perhaps, since they'll need to build a support staff. In the longer run, they'll discover they're getting a lot fewer support calls per Linux machine than they do for Windows.
You're only guessing about the long term. I'm sure if you had some Linux machines to your typical user they'll have issues with it. I'm also sure they're not going to tell people how to get the codecs "for free" to avoid legal issues.
I'm not saying it'll be easy to sell Linux machines to a mass audience, but it's not impossible. It does require that the OEM put a little effort into it. If Walt there is having troubles with his trackpad, whose fault is that? Hint, it's not Canonical's.
Maybe the cost of said effort outweighs other factors. I don't think they care to start selling Linux at a loss and hope that sales eventually recover those costs. And again, this guy didn't like how the trackpad worked, but its just his opinion.
Oh, and it wouldn't hurt to bundle Firefox, Thunderbird, and OpenOffice on those Windows machines you sell either, Mr. Dell.
It seems they don't think it would help though, either.
Linux IS ready for the desktop (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:He didn't even mention Automatix or Easy Ubuntu (Score:3, Insightful)
For everything else........there's the lesser Ubuntu. I actually LIKE Ubuntu, once I install KDE on it. But I prefer SUSE for getting things done easily (And I don't shy away from command line, I am a sysadmin. I love by CLI). For newbies, it is not bad. It sets most things up for you. You have YaST for getting things done quickly w/o the command line. Package management for an RPM based distro is a breeze. It is not as fast as apt-get but it is thorough and has nice features like "rpm provides" which help.
I had issues where $somelib.so was not found and I went into Yast and typed somelib and checked rpm provides and voila, the package(s) that provide it were there, allowing me to check them. It solves deps for you as well. This is much easier than the missing dll hell from win9x days. People compare YaST to Synaptec or apt-get and don't realize it is MUCH MUCH MORE than a package manager. It is a command center.
OpenSUSE Picked up my TV tuner by default as far back as 10.0, all I had to do was scan for channels.
With the extra repositories (easy to configure) I have almost the same capabilities as apt-get (guru and such).
Things just seamed to work.
Re:You can't deny it (Score:3, Insightful)
This doesn't mean that it runs perfectly on every laptop, desktop, and server ever produced.
To get a fair comparison of hardware support, yes. Windows and Mac OS X almost always come pre-installed on hardware configurations specifically designed to run them. No-one holds Mac OS X responsible for the difficulties of installing it on a "Made for Windows" machine, nor does anyone say that Windows Vista sucks if it's hard to install it on a Mac (they'd say the Mac sucks - which also isn't entirely reasonable). Expecting Ubuntu to be magically able to do better than either of the others is silly.
The fact of the matter is that 100% Ubuntu compatible hardware is widely available. That means that there's no excuse to make unfair comparisons between "Ubuntu on Random Hardware" and "Mac OS X on a Mac" or whatever.
Re:Then Windows is not "working". (Score:2, Insightful)
"Advanced user's add-on?" Hell, half the people I run into on a daily basis don't even know that MS Office is not, in fact, a component of Windows. As far as Joe Luser is concerned, if he buys a computer that doesn't make a spreadsheet, that fucker's broken, and I agree. Both you and GP are correct. Spreadsheets are not a "basic Windows function." Therefore, Windows is broken.
Once again, we aren't talking about Outlook, which is an Office item.
See above. If the computer doesn't do these things out of the box and without hassle, it is broken. Why Windows boosters see this clearly w/r/t (to pull an example from TFA) touchpad configuration or video acceleration, but not spreadsheets and email, is totally beyond me.
Why does /. love ubuntu? It gives nothing back. (Score:1, Insightful)
SuSE is much closer to being a desktop OS then Ubuntu and it has a centralized easy to follow point and click control panel with yast2 that is nice for people like my mom (who is exactly the type of user Linux needs to focus on to gain desktop share).
Personally I think Fedora as well as RHEL/CentOS have much more intuitive commands than Debian based distros and while apt-get is nice, yum is also nice.
Finally we need to think about who makes a distro before getting behind it. SuSE/Redhat write and contribute code back to the Open Source Community while Ubuntu just takes packages from Debian and slaps them together. Where will Linux be if Ubuntu gains such a big market share it puts Redhat, SuSE and/or Debian out of business? Nowhere, because without the big guns, Linux would start to die. But if Ubuntu just disappeared tomorrow these three core contributing groups would continue advancing Linux.
I leave IBM out as IBM does not have it's own distribution, but do you think that IBM is more effective working along side partners like Novell and Red Hat or do you think IBM is better off going it alone as Ubuntu's code monkey?
I am beginning to think ubuntu means "We take, others give and recent Linux converts love us for it." Or maybe it means "College kids us us because our name sounds like it we are anti-man and = anti-Western culture; plus we put naked chicks on our first release." or maybe it is "Use us to kill the distros that got Linux here, we're only in it for the quick buck anyways."
- Eric
Windows supports MP3! (Score:4, Insightful)
Well designed command lines are good for new users (Score:5, Insightful)
I take your points, and to me it just seems as if nobody knows how to make a great GUI, or at least, nobody is making a great GUI. If there really was a great GUI out there, I might use it, but as far as I can tell there simply isn't.
I also think it's important to point out that it's completely possible to have a user friendly command line. I think command line interfaces get an unjustified reputation for new users. One of the most commonly used types of apps in the World -- the web search engine -- is based around command lines. Users type what they want, and the search engine tries to give it to them... often quite accurately. The Google command line is a great example of this. It's straightforward for new users to use quite effectively, and advanced users can customise their searches in lots of ways. It's not the type of precisely specified command line that would be associated with something like a bash session, but it's a well designed system appropriate for the task, intended to be quick to learn and easier to use.
Getting back to your comments about GUIs, I have to admit that one of the main reasons I prefer Linux as a desktop OS (and I fully agree this isn't for anyone) is that in a world where no GUI is that great, it provides an excellent command line. I primarily use the GUI these days to do regular things like open a web browser or edit a spreadsheet. But when I get sick of trying to interact with the GUI for a slightly complex operation such as moving files around in a certain way, I can switch to a command line and do things very easily.
Windows has a horrible command line as far as I've experienced. There are few consistent standards for how Windows command line tools should work together, and many Windows tools I've tried to use through a command line have been a secondary effort to an equivalent GUI tool. Often it's impossible to do simple things without invoking the GUI. The Windows Powershell stuff is quite nice for scipting functionality, but Windows still presents it through an awful interface for typing in.
Just my thoughts, anyway.
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:1, Insightful)
I think the real reason they don't sell much linux is because it will cut into sales.
The real reason people upgrade is because their machines are too slow. Why are they too slow? Because the Windows registry has grown to 50M+, the machine is all crapped up with viruses and spyware and the half-dozen apps that are supposed to prevent all this are gumming up the works themselves.
How would Dell stay in business selling machines where someone would buy it, and say "thanks, see you later" and not buy another one for 10 years.
One of my customers runs a mixed shop (Windows & Linux). They can't buy the Windows servers fast enough to keep up with the ever-growing software requirements. I get the old machines, which are now handling things like running postfix on 20K inbound emails/day, and generally running at less than 2% utilization.
Most of them don't even know that the reason the Exchange boxes haven't gone down in flames is because there's a 233Mhz P-III, loafing along, guarding the door.
Running Linux on desktops and servers would eliminate the need to buy new machines on an almost annual cycle.
By "work with linux", do you mean upload PHP? (Score:4, Insightful)
And in that 14 years, you still haven't learned to check to see if your hardware is going to be supported in a recent kernel before you buy it? I guess you bought the wrong tablet PC, because we've deployed it quite successfully for use in idiot-proof AV systems, among other things.
As a linux user of 8 years, I think desktop distributions have come a long way in that time period, and I don't find them any more or less difficult to get working than a Windows OS.
I think the only reason that you were able to get Vista to work on your laptop is because it was supplied with an OEM support disk especially for your machine; they did all the hard work of getting it on there and correctly configured for you.
There are vendors who do this for linux if you care to look for them and pay the premium.
Re:There may be issues with Ubuntu (Score:3, Insightful)
That was the problem with his review. He reviewed the product without understanding any of the policies regarding free to distribute software. His gripes included not playing DVD's (Licensing issue) MP3 playback (same) and some issues with dead sound after a hibernate (valid bug) and the touch pad sensitivity (hardware driver vendor issue).
If you evaluate Ubuntu and know up front that the stuff requiring an extra royalty to package with the product (MP3) or the vendor won't provide a license (DVD Consortium, Apple iPod, MS MTP & MJB, and vendors who don't permit bundling but want the end user to download for free includes items such as Adobe flash, Sun Java, and other 3rd party software.
Once you understand what is not in the package, but can be easly added, (some may be illegal in your country such as DVD playback of CSS protected region coded content) and evaluate the OS instead of the bundled applications not included, you will find Ubuntu stable and full of features with lots of bundled software that cost a bunch extra on Windows. The reviewer didn't address the number of BSOD's he got or the number of executible jpegs that the system couldn't run by default.
He didn't cover multi-user advantages. In Windows for example, switch user logs me out and dumps my download so someone else can jump on and do a quick check of email. On Ubuntu, switch user leaves everything running while someone else can log in and check their email. My download, DVD rip, raytrace render, or video transcode job continues to run while they are logged in checking their email.
He somehow pointed out the glass half empty pointing out that propritory 3rd party codecs and plug-in's are not included in the package. He does have a point as Dell is big enough to pay the MP3 codec lisence as a manufacture and include it in the build just like Apple and Microsoft. Naturally the EULA should point out the non-free codec is included with the laptop purchase and may not be duplicated.
It should come with 2 recovery disks. On is the free software and the other is the EULA wrapped restricted use software to include codecs, flash, MTP and MJB libraries, DVD playback, and such.
End user education is a big part of promoting Open Source Software. A line between the OS and 3rd party restrictions should be part of every commercial Linux install. The included OSS applications included without extra charge should be pointed out such as the scanner utility, photo editor, web server, office suite, etc.
Re:Your Citizenship Has Been Cancelled (Score:3, Insightful)
In the best case scenario, both are easy, and 'just work'.
On windows, if none of the hardware is supported out of the box, the hardest thing you have to do is go download drivers, and then install them. Then you hit MS Update, and patch, with the firewall cranked up. Thats as bad as it gets. It may be slow (patching an xpsp2 windows, for example), but its easy and straightforward.
The worst case scenaior on Linux is much, much worse. Situations where video doesnt work, at all, without grub changes, or finding an 'alternate' install disc. Where you have to poke through arcane 'blacklist' files to prefer one driver or another. Where you have to download the windows driver for the wifi for it to work with yet another piece of software. Where 3d hardware 'just wont work'. Where the laptop buttons and special features 'just dont work'. Same with hibernate/standby.
So yeah, when Linux works, in the best-case scenario, its better than even the best case windows scenario, because apt-get update and apt-get upgrade are superior to MS Update. But in every situation below that, its much, much worse.