Retailer Refuses Hardware Repair Due To Linux 1018
Tikka writes "Today I visited PC World (London, UK) because my 5-month-old laptop has developed a manufacturing fault: the hinge to the display has started to crack the plastic casing. Anyone in the know will know that this is due to the joint inside, and it means that in time the screen will separate from the keyboard. Repair was refused, because I have Gentoo Linux on my laptop, replacing the Windows Vista that was pre-installed. PC World said that installing Linux had voided my warranty and there is nothing they will do for me. I spoke to a manager, who said that he has been told to refuse any repairs if the operating system has been changed. I feel this has really gone against my statutory rights and I will do everything I can to fight it. I will review comments for your advice."
Re:ahem.... are you sure? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:install windows (Score:5, Insightful)
warranty document (Score:3, Insightful)
Why not Try this (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:sigh (Score:3, Insightful)
Their website... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:ahem.... are you sure? (Score:1, Insightful)
What I Do (Score:2, Insightful)
As someone who has worked in tech support for many years (and as such is pretty familiar with the BS that goes on in these companies), I do everything I can to make the product look just like it did when it came out of the box before I send/take it to tech support. I remove everything I've added, put back everything I took out, and I make sure the HDD has a clean install of whatever shipped with it.
You can make a very good case that this shouldn't be necessary, but if what you want is your product fixed in a timely manner, its the best course of action.
Re:ahem.... are you sure? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:ahem.... are you sure? (Score:5, Insightful)
Some day, somebody is going to have to explain to me just what being gay has to do with not supporting software.
Is this some flavour of "pride" that I just hadn't heard of before?
Re:install windows (Score:2, Insightful)
1. Telling this man to erase all his data, his OS, and all his software in order to load something that he doesn't want on his machine.
2. Telling this man to go against his principals, and what he believes in.
I wouldn't agree with you on either, and would advise you to help the man instead of telling him just 'go along' with the establishment store policies. That is one of the many reasons the UK has those Big Brother cameras down every street in London. You just "go along with it", and believe that the government will help you instead of you helping yourselves. Welcome to 1984, and This Perfect Day. Your type thinks that store and the government knows whats best for you, because you can't make that decision yourself.
OS X? (Score:1, Insightful)
Try this analogy! (Score:2, Insightful)
You went down and got an air freshener to make it smell better. Then when your brakes broke they say it was the air freshener???
C'mon! You just removed the stink of "Vista" and put a decent OS. Not a darned thing to do with the hinge. That ought to help you get their unfair stipulation voided in your friendly local court!
Mountains and molehills (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:install windows (Score:3, Insightful)
If that fails, beat them over the head with it. Or just plain don't worry about it. (I have two laptops, both with various physical defects that don't detract from the usability. One of them is held together by Black Gorilla Duct Tape (800lb). It's probably sturdier than the other one, which doesn't have the duct tape. I use it to administer the headless cli ubuntu server VM from my main machine; it's perfect in the role, and I didn't have to throw away that 'old' pcmcia 802.b card.
What, are they supposed to retain their resale value, or something? Oh come on...
You really are the "Lay down and take it" sort aren't you? Why should he:
* Go through the effort of backing up his data, reformatting, installing Windows, have them fix it and then restore it all back?
* Put up with a broken laptop. Just because you're happy to have your laptop look like crap with duct tape all over it, doesn't mean that most of us, when under warranty, would prefer for our hardware to be fixed to the condition it should be... and yes they do retain value, I sold my 5 year old laptop for a decent amount, nothing like what it was new, but certainly more than if it were covered in tape.
And what the hell was all the guff about your administering things via blah blah blah... trying to go for geek cred there?
Really... if you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing at all. He's WELL within his rights to be trying to get this fixed WITHOUT having to uninstall software that's on HIS machine. (And this coming from someone who runs Windows on all of mine)
Re:sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
If no such advice comes up (such as "read the 'Warrenty and repairs act of 1999'" or something akin) then go and talk to your lawyer. If that advice does show, he can walk back into the shop and say "According to the warrenty and repairs act of 1999 you are olbiged to fix this problem, or risk a lawsuit and possible termination of your right to sell future products". Apparently (I'm not in the UK) this is a large chain of stores, but the owner might just be a fanchisee. In that case, he can't afford to have the bad publicity of a lawsuit compared to the mere fixing of a hinge.
I would be very suprised if there isn't a law in place in the UK (I am fairly sure that this wouldn't legally happen is Australia) to protect the consumer against this.
Re:sigh (Score:5, Insightful)
I see no reason why normal people can't give each other advice that has to do with legal issues, even if the advice sometimes turns out to be "talk to a lawyer" (which, in this case, I think is an option, but certainly not a requirement). You really think every consumer complaint has to be handled by a "professional"?
For that matter, what if I have a squeaky door, can I just ask my handy friend for advice or do I have to hire a certified carpenter? Is there something so special about legal issues that a regular person can't do anything whatsoever, even on the simplest situaton, on their own?
Your attitude tends to either come from 1) people who want to keep everyone in the dark so as to protect their revenue stream or 2) gullible people who are fooled by people in category 1.
I worked for Currys.. (Score:5, Insightful)
Fight dirty (Score:2, Insightful)
I installed on a different HDD (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:In the US, your warranty would be valid (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:ahem.... are you sure? (Score:0, Insightful)
I believe it is a symptom of high school (for those in the US) disease, the layman term being "immaturity".
Re:Return it to Acer (Score:2, Insightful)
Most of the time when you encounter a need to repair a hardware defect, it is always better to send it in to the manufacture. Contact the manufacture to obtain a RMA number and most likely, have the manufacture send you the mailing box to send the laptop in. Now, while your in conversation with the manufacture, you can state that the HDD contains confidential information (lie about it, government blah blah... they can't ask questions, its 'government bs') so you are going to remove the accessable hard drive enclosure and keep its safe while you send in the laptop for repair. I've done this myself. With Acer, and Dell. Both times it was due to a hardware defect, and both times, neither argued over the issue.
However, in your case(Author of
(THIS IS STANDARD)
I've seen this with ratoshack, bad buy and curcuit city. (ex: customer brings in laptop, keyboard ALT key had popped off the keyboard base, and wont re hinge. However this customer purchased the EXTENDED warranty (extra $149.99) which covered hardware defects including keyboard replacements. Customer repair claim denied. "Cosmetic wear and tear is not covered in extended service plan warranty* When we took the issue up a few notches the claim was taken care of. However as an additional policy, *Any repair claims completed fulfills our service warranty agreements and closes the warranty account. (I shit you not) However when that action was noticed it sure as hell was not listed or noted by the sales associate selling you the extended warranty. now was it. However the web address you see on the brochure would then lead you to a NEW policy that was written (most likely a week after the warranty brochure was printed)
Point here for you is this. You need to force the issue with higher management. it does not fucking matter whether you have Linux, Unix, Windows 98, or even Windows 3.1 for all that matters. They cannot deny a warranty claim on a defective HARDWARE related issue. Software CANNOT cause a hinge to rub against the plastic because of a faulty screw/washer, or mount design. FUCK THEM retailing lying bastards as hard as you can, on this. I assure you, by the time you are done, you should have your laptop repaired, and a manager kissing your ass, for every purchase you make from that day forward.
Because HEY, thats all you want from a corporate retail chain. some respect and dignity because you shop at their place and give them your hard earned cash so you can feed the fat fucks that never work a day except in a office which most likely has a shower room attached.
Re:ahem.... are you sure? (Score:2, Insightful)
Interesting advice. It's a shame, though not surprising, that a brother has to resort to this to make a warranty claim.
Re:ahem.... are you sure? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Their website... (Score:2, Insightful)
PC World Warranties and Money (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:ahem.... are you sure? (Score:5, Insightful)
In theory, this mode of failure should be still under warranty because on a docking station a laptop operates at full blast (no power savings) and with the lid closed.
None of them has proper cooling in this mode. Most dissipate a significant proportion of the heat through the keyboard. I have seen Sony keyboards being literally fried by the heat from working on a docking station. So nowdays if I get a docking station from IT my first reaction is to dispose of it and replace it with a Fellowes stand so I can reuse the laptop LCD as a monitor as well.
The only way to deal with UK retailers like this is - you pull a recorder on the table and ask for the statement to be recorded for "Trading Standards purposes". No threats, not screams, no arguments. This is enough to get them into sane mode. Same for phone calls and similar for email. While I have not had that with PC World I have had similar dealings with Misco and others and the magic TS words usually works.
Overall, while IMO the laptop should be warrantied against such failure, specifically in the Linux case the warranty may indeed be void. The reason is that the power management on Linux by default has no thermal feedback. On Centrino derived laptops under Winhoze it does and it will throttle the CPU frequency if the laptop is overly hot (even if you turn the power savings off). I do not see it damaging the case though, it will most likely fry the keyboard membrane.
Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:5, Insightful)
On cars, the computers keep the engines from over reving or running on too rich a mixture, both of which can damage the hardware. If you mod the software in your engine's computers you void the warrantee.
These days CPUs control the heat and power management in a computer. They control many other hardware issues. For example I had a computer one time that would constantly go to sleep and wake up every 30 seconds. The hard disk was spun up and down every 30 seconds, the power supply shut on and off every 30 seconds and it would do this all night long every night. I never noticed that during the day of course cause it was awake. It ate several hard drives, a fan, and a motherboard. It may or may not have been a software problem-- more likely the PMMU--but something like that could be in the software. Likewise the fan speed is software controlled. Sometimes voltages are too.
While Linux is not designed to destroy a computer, one can't expect every manufacturer to be aware of every flavor of linux or to know if it has the proper drivers and regulations. Someone who runs gentoo is exactly the kind of tweaker who might just try to disable thermal performance limiters.
I dont' see why they can't limit the OS of the computer to certain specifications that they will warantee.
Of course this has nothing to do with the specific problem--the screen crack. But stores to stay in bussinesses have to have policies that are simple and clear. If the manager is not authorized to make exceptions--and he's probably not qualified to do so-- then it's your tough luck perhaps. It's what comes of shopping at a discount store I think. Big corporate policies and limiting customers.
One reason I swithched to macs is that there's only one company to deal with. the store, the maker, and software and the service department are the same company. There's no arguments they can make about whose responsible and they don't make you talk to bangalore to get help.
EU law: PCworld to prove that prod. without defect (Score:3, Insightful)
This is known to few people and resellers who might refuse to acknowledge it
The Directive applies to
The directive calls for a guarantee of at least 2 years for new goods (or longer if the Member State wishes) where the seller will undertake without extra charge to reimburse the price paid or to replace and/or repair consumer goods if they do not meet the specifications set out in the guarantee statement or relevant advertising.
The goods must
If a defect appears during the first six months following purchase the consumer will not have to prove the product was defective at the moment of delivery. The onus will be on the seller to prove the product was without defect. A consumer will have up to two months following the discovery of the fault to inform the seller. If a defect becomes apparent within the two, or one year, period depending on the type of goods, then the consumer has the right to choose a remedy using the following hierarchy. They can
- Demand repair or replacement within a reasonable time and without any significant inconvenience. (Free of charge repair refers to the necessary costs to bring the goods "back to conformity")
- If this is impossible, unproportionate or cannot be done within a reasonable time or without significant inconvenience then the consumer can demand a price reduction or can rescind the contract (though not if the defect is minor)
All these rights are free of charge to the customer.See also http://www.wak-tt.com/tt/2yearwarranty1.htm [wak-tt.com] for a summary of the directive (the above is quoted from there).
My personal experience (with BT in this case) is that the various persons I had to talk to all referenced the companys warranty period of 1y to refuse me. I was finally forwarded to a last person who declared my router to be still under 1y guarantee (which it clearly wasn't - I was several months over, but still below 2y). My guess is that companies would rather not admit that they are really subject to this legislation.
You might need some patience - but the law is on your side. This is at least one good thing that the EU has done for us.
Not in UK: "not of merchantable quality" (Score:5, Insightful)
The laptop is classified as "electrical goods" and it's actually so that legally he may have more rights than the warranty allows (and that he knows of). The law in the UK knows something called "mechantable quality" (based on reasonable product life expectancy) - if I buy a washing machine and it fails in 18 months while I have a warranty for 12 the retailer will STILL be required to repair the thing (not replace, though).
As batteries only have a life expectancy of about 1 year you won't be able to use that for battery problems, but a laptop can reasonably be expected to function more than 2 years and can otherwise be deemed "not of mechantable quality", the retail of such goods breaks the UK sales of goods act (AFAIK, IANAL and it's been a while since I had to throw bricks like this around
Few consumers know just how many rights they have, and the lack of decent enforcement has created a retailer culture of "getting away with it". Knowledge is a fine thing
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:3, Insightful)
And that computer you mentioned, the one that ate hardware, was that Windows?
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:5, Insightful)
The distinction is that problems that are demonstrably due to hardware failures are not caused by the software. Whilst PC World might have a legitimate case in refusing software support for software they didn't supply, it is not legitimate for them to use this to support a different area of failure. Whilst car analogies are not useful for arguing on
In pursuing this legally, the submitter should cling to and hammer home this point at every stage, because it is the crux of the issue and it is what needs to be made clear to any magistrate. I wish him or her luck and encourage them not to drop the case, but to take satisfaction in every second that he forces PC World to devote to dealing with him. He can also take satisfaction in the amount of international negative publicity he's just brought down upon them. Here's a good reason for people to shop elsewhere.
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:2, Insightful)
Unless they have taken down your name and serial number and blacklisted you. In which case, threatening to sue might be the only way to get your computer serviced.
Re:ahem.... are you sure? (Score:5, Insightful)
Or to use an older (19th century) derogatory slang in the same vein, they jewed him.
What do you think Walpurgiss, perhaps it was a little Negro of them?
Re:ahem.... are you sure? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:ahem.... are you sure? (Score:3, Insightful)
0) BACKUP YOUR DATA
0.5) Overwrite/delete ALL data
1) remove hard disk
2) hit it repeatedly on the table until hard disk fails to boot
3) return entire device to store
If only Gary Glitter had followed these steps
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:3, Insightful)
Umm... Why not just reinstall Windows using the rescue disk provided and bring it back in.
Then you've got the right OS and the crack is still there.
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:1, Insightful)
Ahhh, yes -- in exactly the same bullshit manner that Windows Explorer was "so integrated with the OS as to be inseparable".
So please don't claim that changing the software has no effect on the hardware and should not affect warranty.
You know, you're the same kind of person who thinks, because they've concocted any hare-brained "theory" to explain their position, that the other party is left with no choice except to disprove the cockamamie "theory" or to accept defeat.
It's like the old cartoon showing a computer with smoke pouring out of it and a service tech standing at the user's office door and saying, "Looks like software to me". Forget that crap. It's up to the vendor to prove that the software in fact caused the malfunction.
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:5, Insightful)
No no! The moral of the story is, don't buy anything from PC World full stop!
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:4, Insightful)
Why isn't swapping the drive standard practice? (Score:3, Insightful)
Both of these steps are simple and linear, they don't require great diagnostic skill or time. If the machine passes both tests, the manufacturer can contact the consumer and offer to either re-image the drive as it was when new for a small fee, attempt to repair the software configuration at a much much higher fee, or return the unit for the consumer to find a local specialist to recover the data.
As a standard practice, this would seem to me to limit repair time and cost, limit damage to consumer data when not necessary, and generally make more people happy more of the time.
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:4, Insightful)
As it happened the laptop keyboard developed a fault that required it's replacement. Before even calling for service I replaced the original hard drive, just in case I needed to send the laptop back to Acer for service. Fortunately, the keyboard is a user-replaceable item, and they were able to just send me a new one. But had I needed to return it, Acer would have been none the wiser. Not only is the hard drive easily accessible, but there is no "warranty sticker" across the hard drive slot that would indicate to them that I had even touched it.
Unless you are buying a "direct from the manufacturer" laptop (such as a Dell or Lenovo) and are planning on replacing the stock OS, I always recommend replacing the hard drive and carefully storing the original. This way you will NEVER run into the issue the submitter did.
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:5, Insightful)
IANAL but I worked for many years for a very large retailer, where I provided the technology support to the legal staff both for their projects and when reviewing software and hardware contracts with terminology that needed explanation.
Before posting the Brand and Model of the computer, since you are not saying the manufacturer refused to fix it, but a retailer, you may actually want to contact the manufacturer.
First step is to go back to PC World and ask for a copy of the warranty information where it expressly states that because the original software on the machine was replaced they will not repair a hardware problem. If they don't have warranty details, request the manager put his interpretation in writing.
Next, contact the manufacturer directly, supply the copy of the warranty details, if you received any. If the shop refused to give you any details, spell that out. Consider providing a photo of the physical issue. Send the request for clarification to the manufacturer's legal and/or consumer relations departments. Might consider sending to PC Worlds consumer relations and/or legal departments as well asking for clarification
If the manufacturer helps or doesn't help, then publicize that fact. Give them a chance to remedy the situation, but be sure to give them acknowledgment if they do help.
Don't call them out before they've had a chance to review the situation. They can put a lot more pressure on the retailer than you can.
You should be fine (Score:1, Insightful)
As for the the issues of voiding your warranty, technically you haven't, however you may have a lot of trouble getting repairs if you have future problems. Every laptop sold by PCW and Currys in the last two years has a recovery partition built into it, and unless you were attentive when installing Gentoo you probably removed it. If you have any HDD, RAM, Mobo etc. issues, our (DSGi) agreement with the manufacturers states that before we can do a repair on the machine we must confirm that the error is caused by a hardware issue. The easiest way of confirming this is to recover the machine back to factory settings and see what happens. Only in the cases that the issus is physically visible can we repair a machine without doing a recovery. Most manufacturers will say the same as well. No matter what you do with machine, you should always leave the recovery partition intact.
If you're unhappy with the service provided by the store, PCW customer services can be contacted on 0844 561 0000. Your concerns about the attitude of the store staff can be passed to out store liason/case management team. The member of store staff you spoke to was incorrect, you have not voided your warranty, however he was correct in stating that he could not book the machine for repair (that needs to be done by the customer in manufacturer's warranty), and that in general, we won't pick up a machine without the original operating system installed.
To the Sale of Goods act zealots in the comments, remember that the Sale of Goods act also covers retailers, and DSGi's repair policies (while not fantastic) have stood up in court on a number of occasions, including in instances like this, and such a big retailer, while doing everything to maximize profit, is not likely to start breaking the law. Stop quoting If a defect appears during the first six months following purchase the consumer will not have to prove the product was defective at the moment of delivery. The onus will be on the seller to prove the product was without defect. Seriously. We know that it wasn't faulty at the time of delivery, and don't plan to prove otherwise. We are obligated to prove that the fault was not caused by an inherant manufacturing defect if we are to refuse repair (which won't happen anyway).
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:3, Insightful)
Dust bunnies, poor air quality, hot apartments and datacenters cabinets, all will eventually overheat your well-engineered computer. If you fail to design for it, do not make it my problem.
don't take no for an answer. (Score:2, Insightful)
A PC world warranty is in addition to your statutory rights, not a replacement for. A laptop that is broken after 5months is not of satisfactory quality.
Ask store manager again, pointing out his duties under sale of goods act - do not listen if he tries to get you to take it up with manafacturer - the contract is between you and the store. Feel free to take notebook / dictaphone to recored his words.
if they refuse to repair or replace, write to the registered office, insisting on repair or replacement within 14 cal. days, send it recorded delivery. If no response, send another recorded letter headed "LETTER BEFORE ACTION" threatening legal action in cal 14 days if they do not repair or replace. Ideal person to send it to is company secretary.
if no reply, google "money claim online" for the online small claims track of the county courts (form N1 is the one you need). It'll cost you a few quid to serve the papers, but you will get it all back when you win at the County Court. Plus statutory interest at 8% pa (non-compounded) under the county courts act.
Also remember to claim for you time/costs - around £10/ hour is reasonable. They will almost certainly play ball on receipt of the court papers - it costs them far more to contest a case than it does to give you a new laptop. district judges are sympathetic to claimants in person dealing with large companies. As long as you have shown reasonable behaviour throught you will be just fine.
court process slightly different in Scotland (and NI?) but general principles the same.
It may seem like this is an overly agressive method, it will get you the result you want and is quite empowering to take on a multinational and win.
good luck.
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:3, Insightful)
Or, in this case, a couple of hundred thousand...
Re:Setting aside the humor, do they have a point? (Score:3, Insightful)
Now a law suit in itself wouldn't be that bad for a company. From a cost perspective, they might just do whatever needs to be done. Bitting the bullet on a $1200 laptop or the $200 case repair as opposed to paying the lawyers, taking the time to countering the negetive press from the lawsuit and everything else might be the option they want to take. It would just be cheaper in the long run and fixing something you think is wrong just looks good when people talk about it. Of course there are some people who will concentrate on the fact it broke instead of they replaced it and made it right eventually. But that is another story.