New Gentoo 2007.0 Release Gets Mixed Review 273
lisah writes "Gentoo's recently released version 2007.0 gets a fair-to-middling review from Linux.com. Installation was a headache from the live CD and DVD versions, but the Gentoo Linux Installer saved the day and gets high marks for being 'far better than it's predecessor.' The user experience is also mixed — on the one hand, the distribution boots quickly, has great hardware support, and new, user-friendly artwork. On the other hand, 'for some strange reason, the installed Gentoo doesn't allow normal users to run any administrative applications.' Overall, it doesn't look like Gentoo offers any compelling reasons to switch to 'Secret Sauce' if they're happy with their current, uh, flavor."
for some strange reason (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Update difficulties (Score:3, Informative)
/. can't even quote without getting grammar wrong (Score:3, Informative)
But quoted on
This is NOT THAT HARD to get right, people. No apostrophe means that it's possessive. With an apostrophe,
it's a contraction of "it is" or "it has".
Re:Update difficulties (Score:5, Informative)
If you're getting to the point that you're getting incompatible updates with your existing setup, then you can always try `emerge -NDuep` and look at the resulting list it'll give you (p is for preview). From that, `emerge -C` anything you don't use any more, and then drop the 'p' from the command above and re-run it. It'll re-compile everything on your system with the latest packages, meaning that you should hopefully avoid the incompatibilities you're referring to.
Then again, if all that looks too much to do, Gentoo might not be for you?
NeoThermic
Re:This wouldn't have anything to do... (Score:2, Informative)
And the founder (drobbins) has already come back from Microsoft and left again because he no longer fit in.
A little "hands on" experience with 2006.1 (Score:1, Informative)
So Gentoo was it.
Downloaded the Installer and off we go. Ok. First problem, no driver for the Areca-RAIDcontroller. Ok. Source is available, as well as modules for pretty much every distribution (well, every but Gentoo), and the controller is available in kernel from 2.6.19 and up.
2006.1 uses 2.6.18 (or something like that). Ok, so much for "bleeding edge"...
Compiled the driver but
After some research on some boards I finally found someone kind enough to compile it for this distribution so insmod would actually agree with loading it. Fine. Let's go.
After about an hour of tinkering with USE flags (seriously, I didn't know what half of them are for, and documentation... erhm... ok, let's not mention it) and deciding just what packages I want (it's a server, baby, so give it some!), the install started.
3 hours later, it ended. Ended, not finished. A package can't be downloaded. From no mirror. O...kay? Why?
A few hours and some research later, I learned that the package missing is missing because the version on the installer DVD is outdated. The newer version is, of course, available, though the installer insists in using the old one.
I'm pretty sure this issue could be resolved somehow. But I kinda wanted to use the server before it's turned into a heavy paperweight. I know, I'll be flamed for being a noob and whatever, 'cause I couldn't resolve such a simple issue, and I'm pretty sure the workaround is quite easy if you're a Gentoo-wiz, but those things tend to turn people away from a distribution. The newbies, because they can't figure out how to do something, and the Linux vets because they're used to at least working installations.
Reinventing the Wheel (Score:5, Informative)
Gentoo is set up the same way as older Unices for privilege escalation. You cannot su if you are not a member of the wheel group.
Re:Gentoo-Linux-Zealot Translator-o-matic! (Score:3, Informative)
So true. Having used Gentoo for 2 years my box was actually slower. It had to compile security updates + all unrelated upgraded every week. emerge has no (official) way to install security updates only. And once you have ldap + mysql installed, all ./configure scripts start to pick those libraries up too, making the whole system link to each other.
Tell me what objdump -x `which $kdeapp` | grep NEEDED returns at your system. It should only return direct deps, not the whole list. And remember RPM-based distro's also compile with "-O2 -mcpu=i686" ;-)
I'm also getting really tired of bug reports from Gentoo users. They report my app is broken, when it appears they managed to compile KDElibs without SSL, or use a bleeding edge build system which is not supported by stable KDE releases. I don't mind different Linux configurations, but these extremes are just wasting precious time.
Re:And what did you think was going to happen.... (Score:3, Informative)
Just the other day, one of my very close friends (who works in a high performance computing lab at a major university), called to ask me "how to get data onto a disk after you format it".....basically she was asking how you actually get files from one place to another after a format. A VERY VERY basic basic operation, one that would seem very obvious to most every linux user. However, she runs Ubuntu on her desktop, and has therefore NEVER EVER had to touch anything related to the operating system (and no this isn't flame bait, i ran Ubuntu on my laptop for over a year). She also wanted to know what exactly a file system was. Something that is explained at length in the Gentoo guide. There has been numerous other questions very similar to this one, ALL of which could have been almost immediately answered by just reading through the Gentoo install guide.
IMHO, installing from CLI should be a right of passage for any linux nub.
Re:Gentoo-Linux-Zealot Translator-o-matic! (Score:2, Informative)
Hehehehe, not sure about the others. But that one pretty much described my Gentoo workstation. I have no idea where it came from (I found the PC in a dump), but the mobo is an AMD machine from some time in the 99's/ early 2000's. And yes, it is overclocked (to a whopping 1.2GHz, almost twice its original speed) and a dodgy fan.
But thinking about it. One of the main reasons I made use of Gentoo is in its flexibility. Originally I found it was far easier to do custom compiles and installs on a machine which had all the sources already installed for me (Rather than Debian's apt-get install $foo-dev package idea, which I hated). Also as a beginner I learned a lot from the gentoo install process. Primarily how everything worked together. Things like kernel compiling, runlevels and inittab I learned from gentoo.
Other things I would do is mix and match parts of different systems. For example with GUI's. I would just compile subsets of what packages I needed for make up some custom xfce/e16/wmaker mashup which suited my needs/wants. I don't know of many distro's where you can rip out GlibC and replace it with uclibC and all packages with only the minimal stuff built, while keeping all your tools and installable packages the same (there are many embedded distros out there, but not many that you can make use of as a general purpose distro with all the same packages as the "heavier" distro), or replacing the linux kernel with another one (like FreeBSD).
Also I do tend to notice the speedups from running gentoo highly optimised. But that is probably because my machine is underpowered. If I had a nice, modern dual core machine, the little speed optimisations would probably not be worth the hassle of compiling from scratch. Indeed I would probably not make use of gentoo when I get a new machine (this one is really beginning to show its age).
Unfortunately I have also found that gentoo has been going downhill in the last year or so. Once when I ran it "stable" I would never have a problem compiling packages. But nowadays I keep coming across broken packages, failed compiles and general problems which require headbanging and workarounds. This is what I would expect if I was running the "~x86" or other unstable options, and was not the case when I first started using gentoo (2003). One of the reasons I switched was the relative painlessness of installation and maintenance thanks to portage (which IMO was one of the best package management systems out there) but lately that has not been the case.
I still like gentoo. Where is currently shines for me in for embedded development. It has made developing an embedded environment so much easier, but alas as a main OS nowadays, I feel I am spending more time trying to get it working then I spend using it. When I get my new machine chances are it will not be running Gentoo (But as I do like portage, I may well end up running some sort of gentoo/ubuntu hybrid. With aptitude for those general binary packages and portage for those "must run as fast as possible" performance apps).
Re:Update difficulties (Score:3, Informative)
Re:A little "hands on" experience with 2006.1 (Score:3, Informative)
That's a bit arrogant sounding, don't you think?
Almost 3 years ago, I was pretty much a linux newbie. I had dabbled in SuSE, Redhat, Fedora, and a bunch of other distributions, but never really customized them after installing. Honestly, I had never had a use for a linux machine. Then I came across Gentoo. It had an easy-to-follow handbook (even then), resourceful website and forums, and a great mailing list. I made use of all of these. It took several installs and screw ups, but I finally got it right. At that time, changing from x86 to ~x86, upgrading the system, then changing back to x86, can break the system severely. Even these days, gcc can break when changing from stable to testing then back.
But that's a bit offtopic. The point is, I kept trying, and I got it right.Half right. A linux veteran would notice the problem and would know how to fix it. For you and me, knowing what to do and how to do it may be second nature, but to him, it is not. The best thing we veterans can do is point him in the right direction. For Gentoo, that is the website, the forums, and the mailing list.
Gentoo 2007.0 Review from Daniel Robbins (Score:3, Informative)
Oh, and check out http://www.funtoo.org/ [funtoo.org] while you're at it and let me know what you think of the new logo.
-Daniel
Gentoo's great (Score:2, Informative)
Gentoo is great.
These all make Gentoo my favorite distro.
If you don't want so many updates, sync less. If you don't want to see all the output, use a frontend. If you want to criticize the founder, go ahead, at least we haven't got Microsoft selling our software.
But the fact is: Gentoo installs great if you use the CLI, you haven't got any extra services running at boot, you can fully customize your system. These are the things I'm looking for in a distro.
FYI: I've never compiled for days. Unless you're too stupid to compile openoffice (we've got binaries too, you know)
Re:for some strange reason (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Gentoo-Linux-Zealot Translator-o-matic! (Score:5, Informative)
it all depends on what you want to use it for
(it's a bit like hitting a screw with a hammer and saying, hmmm this isn't going into the wall very well)
if you want something that's going to work first time, and that your not going to have to arse about setting up
(e.g. a commercial environment) then go with a rpm solution like redhat or suse (this way you've always got the option of support as well at the same time)
If you want something for running the latest cutting edge software and damned the consequences
the sort of person that would make the attempt at building his own conservatory on the side of his house go for Gentoo
Disadvantages
1. it's source based
which can mean less stable / well tested
ultimately gentoo is a source based dist, which means any binary files you end up with won't have been tested
and there's no guarantee of behavior as it all depends on how things have been linked
2. rpm's do some amount of checking when installing the binary, with gentoo it's assumed that whatever has been compiled is correct
(unless make install throws up an error during the build process or you write some checking into the script it's not always possible to guarantee that everything is installed the way it's supposed to be
admitily problems are rare but do crop up now and again
3. it takes ages to compile / install etc
the trade-off here is having access to the latest stuff, so I'm happy with this one
Advantages
1. if you want to get something working that's only just been released
it takes me 5 mins to write an ebuild script
it takes much longer to write an rpm spec file
(this especially comes in handy when your trying to add / remove patches / custom graft as part of the script)
the reason for this is a lot of the common stuff has been functionalised (is that a word?) into eclass files
this makes the whole thing default to a certain common behavior unless overridden in the script
also you don't have to list all the files that should be installed as it works it out for itself all auto-magically
in an ideal scenario for rpm you'd at least have both options depending on the use of the system (do some checking, don't do some checking)
ideally I'd really like rpm to take on some of the same advantages as this one (why not?, it might need testing / change of spec files but it'd be well worth it)
2. a lot of the scripts that form the bootup are much more up-to-date
again most of the stuff in the
it's part of the whole "if it's not broke don't fix it" thing, which in principle gives advantages to commonality if everyone is using the same sort of
startup scripts if your writing a RPM for several dists and may be more stable / tested
but the gentoo method is much simpler to write for / more automated
3. it's sourced based
which means it'll run on pretty much anything, any weird ass bit of hardware you can throw at it (usually)
(PS3 hint hint)
Personally I'm confident I can fix most things when they go wrong in the portage tree, via an overlay (or at least have the patience to wait for it to be fixed). but for the average Joe user in an office that couldn't give a monkey's for that sort of thing something binary / rpm is better suited
There's probably lots of stuff I've missed here but the general idea is
if you like home brew go to Gentoo (mmm tasty brew)
If you like it plain and flat go for Red Hat
Re:A little "hands on" experience with 2006.1 (Score:5, Informative)
But Gentoo is not a distribution. It's really more of a meta-distribution. It can be tailored to just about anything you want, but you need to be willing to take ownership of it and work with it.
If you're looking for your server to Just Work (tm), then by all means, go get SuSe or Mandriva or Ubuntu or Fedora or some other distro with precompiled binaries and a slick installer program. Gentoo's not for everyone. But, if you're looking for fine-grained control over your operating system with some handy scripts to help you out along the way, then you have to be willing to get your hands a little dirty.
I picked up Gentoo as an educational tool; I figured building it from scratch was the best way to learn about Linux, and I was right. Since then, I've stayed with Gentoo because I like the flexibility it gives me, and because at heart I really just enjoy building things. Right now I have Gentoo installed on two servers, a desktop and a laptop at home, and I'm working on building a tiny MythTV frontend that will boot from a USB key (under 100MB). Gentoo's flexible enough to allow me to do that, but then again, I'm willing to sit with it until it's right.
Gentoo never has been and never will be a Just Works (tm) operating system. It's for the hobbyists, the administrators, the students: anyone who wants a much finer grain control over their system. If that's not for you, then no one at Gentoo will hold a grudge.
Re:Where are the Gentoos of yesteryear? (Score:3, Informative)
Dog slow.
emerge
Very slow.
"I simply come back to it once it's done." I'm sure people said the same thing in the 1970s on UNIX time sharing machines. That's like saying "I never notice the fifteen minute commercial break on television, becaue I simply come back to it once it's done."
Portage is not bad if you don't mind waiting, but in this age of 3 GHz processors and other package managers (like apt) that do the same job in much less time, Portage is slow. And I'm not even talking about compiling. Syncing, resolving dependencies, and searching is SLOW. 3rd party tools like eix help, but other package managers like apt do the same job, without needing third-party tools to speed them up.
Re:Gentoo-Linux-Zealot Translator-o-matic! (Score:4, Informative)
I'm growing a bit impatient with Apple as of late. They do some things in the background that I just don't appreciate. Just to name a couple - if you go to set up Kerberos on the server version, you never get prompted to set up the master password, and when it comes time to set up non-apple replicas, you're left holding the bags. Took me a week to figure out a way around it and document it! Ugh.
Another is the fact that they hide the password hashes from root. In linux, you have
Whatever the case, it is ANNOYING.
Re:This wouldn't have anything to do... (Score:2, Informative)
It can be done with Linux From Scratch [linuxfromscratch.org] or you can always roll [kernel.org] your own [gnu.org].
Re:Update difficulties (Score:2, Informative)