HP Dishonors Warranty If You Load Linux 702
darkonc points us to a writeup on linux.com about a very Linux-unfriendly policy at HP. A woman bought a Compaq laptop and loaded Ubuntu on it. Some time later, still well inside the 1-year hardware warranty, the keyboard started acting up. An HP support rep told her, "Sorry, we do not honor our hardware warranty when you run Linux." Gateway and Dell refused to comment to the reporter on what they would do in a similar situation. (Linux.com and Slashdot are both part of OSTG.)
Not Unreasonable (Score:5, Interesting)
same problem (Score:5, Interesting)
In order for them to do ANY service on it..
A) I had to replace the hard drive with one that worked.
B) Install windows on that hard drive
C) Submit laptop to HP to get the keyboard fixed.
D) Get Laptop back..
E) Put bad hard drive back in
F) Ship it back to HP in order for them to fix the bad drive.
I pretty told them to pound sand and bought a keyboard replacement on ebay.
I will NEVER own another HP again.
Uh, Car analogy? (Score:2, Interesting)
I mean if I buy a car and replace the breaks and several months later the air conditioning goes out, they can't void the warranty for what I did to the breaks.
Its not just Linux (Score:3, Interesting)
I bought a laptop several years back at Best Buy, but it only had XP Home on it. I did the usual dump and reload, and installed XP Pro using one of my spare open licenses. I tried downloading the drivers like I do for every other brand, only to find they didnt exist.
I called support to find out how to get the windows drivers, and was told that they warrant the unit as a whole, and if ANY different OS is installed, they wouldnt talk to me. He did say that after running the restore utility to recover the factory load that it would be valid again.
Turns out that if anything ever happened to that laptop's software, the course of action would not be to fix the driver, etc, but to wipe and reload from scratch.
Thanks for nothing HP.
The next day I took it back to Best Buy and exchanged it for a Sony.
Re:Goodbye HP (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:a little misleading (Score:2, Interesting)
I had Dell do the same thing a while back. I had a network card go in one of their systems, but I had upgraded it to XP (shipped with 2000) and they told me they couldn't help me unless it was in it's original condition. Though the guy on the phone said he'd help me get it back to that state if I wanted... I laughed and hung up. Called back when it was back to "normal" and got service as expected.
Encountered this as well (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Its not just Linux (Score:2, Interesting)
This is why.... (Score:5, Interesting)
There are several reasons you should not uninstall windows. One is what this article is about, warranty support. If you ever have a hardware issue you can just delete the linux paritions (after a backup) and ship the thing; unless the tech has some weird reason to do forensic analysis on the HD they will never know it ever had linux on it.
There are other reasons too - wine works better with some applications when you can point it at some actual windows DLLs. Also, you have the ability to boot into Windows to play the occasional game or other multimedia nonsense that don't work in Linux.
Really I don't know why someone who bought a PC that came with Windows, which THEY PAID FOR, would just go erase it anyways. It's a total waste of money, and you aren't sending anyone a "message".
Disk space is dirt cheap. Until you can buy PCs barebones with the Windows tax removed, IMO it is ill-advised to un-install.
Dell did this to me once. (Score:3, Interesting)
I went through several levels of tech support before they finally told me that if I had a problem with the warranty, I could talk to their legal department. I decided that the best solution was to not do business with Dell anymore.
This was while ago, so it is possible that they have changed their policies for personal support (not business where I hear they are better), but I doubt it.
Re:Good question, Drivers? (Score:3, Interesting)
For me it is fine that HP does not support Linux - they don't have to. But they should have strict policies like:
- phone technical support applies only when running supported operating system (i.e. Windows XP)
- when submitting hardware for warranty you allow us to wipe all data on your system (i.e. put fresh image of Windows and then diagnose the problem)
I know that when it comes to keyboard-keys-stucking problem it is no way a fault of the OS. But on the other hand I don't expect that any vendor will do phone support for any given operating system that I could probably install on the hardware.
Re:Its not just Linux (Score:3, Interesting)
My next notebook was a Sony Vaio. It worked ok, until one day the touch pad and went flakey, and the power button kept slipping and getting stuck under the casing. I sent it in, fully functional except for what was mentioned, and the returned it, saying there was water damage to the motherboard, and they wouldn't replace it. The machine wouldn't even turn on after I got it back.
Those are two companies I won't deal with ever again for a personal computer. The annoying thing is, I bought the Sony before all this idiocy with the DRM and user abuse was known/public. Had I known, I would have expected that from them. As it is, I'll not buy another Sony product again.
I guess your post just made me think of my own experiences, althought they were a bit different, I used both of those vendors, in that order (although I only got the Sony from BB, another 'never again'...). My current notebook is a Toshiba, and the tech guy was utterly dumbfounded that I was worried putting a non-windows OS on my computer would void the warantee, he though the idea was ridiculous.
No, it's not completely reasonable (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:I cheated and RTFA'd (Score:1, Interesting)
In any case, there's nothing guaranteeing that the OS on the computer is in any kind of reasonable state, whether intentionally or by accident. There's no reason those techs couldn't boot the computer off an external device for troubleshooting. This should be expected, if only to remove the software from the equation and facilitate troubleshooting.
The problem is that people like you have been brainwashed to expect a company's techs to be utterly incompetent fools, and to have to bend over backwards to accommodate their tiny and inflexible brains. The truth is that we should not tolerate this! These are not facts of life that you are talking about, they are merely facts of certain big companies that treat us like crap so that they can lower their warranty costs. Refuse to be taken in. That warranty is a legally binding promise, and you don't have to do anything that it doesn't say in the text.
Re:Not Unreasonable (Score:2, Interesting)
I killed the brand new floppy drive immediately. I couldn't believe it. First time I ever saw software kill hardware.
A good reason not to buy from them ... (Score:3, Interesting)
However, this practice is really only possible in countries with rather lax customer protection laws.
At least in most European countries, this practice would very likely be illegal since the customer has a legally granted right to get faulty hardware replaced within a certain time (usually 12 months). This cannot be legally made dependent on what software the customer chooses to run on his computer.
The old "voided your warranty" scam (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Illegal? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Not illegal for my desktop (Score:5, Interesting)
Just about every personal computer since mid 90's (Macs excepted) is designed to run a flavor of Windows. Do you wonder why most probably there are no Alpha or MIPS desktop computers around you? That's right - because there is no version of Windows and Office for them. Do you think Intel and AMD could not make a multi-core processor until about last year? They could do it since almost ever (I have seen multi-processor 386 systems), but there would be next to no market for them as Windows 98 couldn't use more than one processor.
Truth is - most computers are really designed to run Windows and this has inhibited or postponed many technical advances. We still use glorified 5150's.
BTW, manufacturers are quite happy with this.
Re:Illegal? (Score:4, Interesting)
I do know that with MS, the only metric they held us to was that when they did the random call backs to survey customer satisfaction we better have at least a 90% rating of making the customer happy, no call time, no minimum number of calls per day, no pushing for sales, none of the other BS that Dell and ESPECIALLY Gateway put on thier techs. Dell was reasonable, Gateway wanted sales people that could read a checklist more than they wanted real techs and ran a lot of good techs off that way.
just so you know (Score:1, Interesting)
She bought a laptop. It's less than a year old. It's materially faulty. Ergo, they sold her a faulty product and are on the hook for replacing it.
The warranty doesn't come into it - why would someone be able to sell you a product whilst disclaiming all responsibility for whether it works or not by not providing a warranty? And in the situation where they do provide a warranty, why would it then be able to set a minimum standard below that which would be expected if there were no warranty?
Re:Not Unreasonable (Score:3, Interesting)
Testing third-party apps would be a monumental waste of resources. It would be much simpler to have it built into your agreement with the OS vendor (and the hardware/driver vendors) that the OS/drivers/hardware will not allow approved hardware to be damaged. Installing unapproved drivers or an unapproved OS would breach this integrity and therefore any promises of functionality can't be guaranteed and the warranty is broken.
Re:Why this is illegal (Score:3, Interesting)
I had the same experience with a Dell Precision Workstation 410, a dual-processor intel box (P2 I think) that was, once upon a time, a super badass. Of course now it's a turd, but Dell was still quite helpful when I called them up, gave them the service tag number, and asked them questions.
In general, buying server or workstation class hardware definitely gets you a hell of a lot more respect on the phone. This laptop, in fact, is a "mobile workstation" (says so right next to the keyboard.) It came with less preloaded bullshit, but so far I haven't seemed to get notably more respect on the phone. I told them that my trackpoint cover was coming off when it shouldn't and they first blamed me for it, so I sent them a big nastygram email about how I expected better from HP tech support, especially on a workstation class system, and I would be happy to buy from someone else next time. They ended up sending me a whole baggie of the new tips, which lo and behold, have a different part number on them than the original. In other words, they have already been revised, but they were still willing to deny that there was a problem.
HP has been pissing me off more and more lately, though. I would rather choose anyone else, except Sony. Even before the Lik-Sang, Blu-Ray, and "Probably too cheap" crap, I didn't buy Sony because it was shit. I had a Vaio way back when, support on the machine continued past the release of Windows 2000 but they never bothered to bring out drivers for the graphics chipset, even though the manufacturer of the graphics chipset (Neomagic) had themselves developed drivers (which they were releasing only to OEMs.) There was one in the IT office at the same time I chose this HP, and it had been here only for a week and was already falling apart - and this was or was near to their flagship at the time, a core duo system with a 17" widescreen.
I would have bought the MBP, but not with ATI graphics. *shudder* Otherwise it would be the ideal linux workstation. Well, if it had three buttons instead of one.
I would not buy Compaq anyway... (Score:3, Interesting)
If thats the type of crap they want to pull with their hardware, I won't go anywhere near Compaq or HP!
Re:Illegal? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:This is disappointing (Score:1, Interesting)
How can we be sure? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Illegal? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Illegal? (Score:5, Interesting)
If you read carefully you'll see they didn't claim that installing linux "voids the warranty" (though the article, confusingly, suggests that they did). At least not as I understand the term. I thought it referred to something unreversible--like dropping it off a tall building.
They asked her to wipe the system and restore the original OS before returning the laptop.
Which is still annoying--it shouldn't be that hard for them just to boot the thing from a diagnostic disk if they want to test with a known software configuration. I'd think the sensible thing would be to say "ship it to us, but back it up first; if we suspect a software problem we reserve the right to return the disk to its original state before returning it, but we'll try not to do that unless it's necessary."
Policy is to wipe anyhow (Score:4, Interesting)
So I guess the solution is, don't mention linux, just stick a spare drive in and get a free upgrade.
Re:Illegal? (Score:1, Interesting)
Dell and some other savvy companies have figured out it's cheaper to buy lots of stock of the drives they most commonly use and to give you a slight upgrade if you're not using one of those. It's win-win because it costs them more money to stock all the sizes they've ever used.
I had some 4.3 gig and 6.4 gig drives fail towards the end of the 5-year warranties some manufacturers offered on certain lines back then. I received no smaller than 8GB drives in their place, and one 6.4 gig drive came back as a 40GB. One guy giving me an RMA actually apologized because I got the last drive in the regional warehouse in an original size once.
Kudos to Dell for being smart enough to do things right by both their customers and themselves, though.
A really generous tech support experience I had once was when I had a customer's machine on bench after a hard drive went toasty (literally scorched). The Ethernet card was labeled as the brand of a defunct computer and parts company. I hoped it was an OEM card so I could download the proper drivers. So, I did some searching and didn't find anything until I did an FCC-ID search. The card turned out to be made by a company which offered lifetime tech support. I called and asked if they could tell me what model of theirs the card corresponded to. The tech went above and beyond -- emailed me the driver, the docs for the house brand model, and a copy of the defunct company's docs in case their were any slight differences. He further asked me to call back if there was any more support needed for the card in the future.
I would file a small claims case pro se (Score:4, Interesting)
Total cost, about 16 bux and an hours time.
Now, HP could decided to help you, return your money, or send an attorney to BFE where you live to defend the case.
If they do nothing, you go to court and get a default judgment for the cost of they system. Another hour on your part.
So, they will honor the warranty linux or not, you just have to not lie down for their Microsoft inspired tactics.
Large corporations will try this all the time, you just have to make the effort to stop them.
Cheers
Re:Goodbye HP (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Also.. (Score:2, Interesting)
Go above their heads, you'll come out the winner every time. I know a guy who threw a rod after installing (by himself) a supercharger, and argued himself into a new engine. He didn't deserve it, and it was douchebaggy on his part, but he got it.
There are bad dealers and good ones. Good ones want your business.
I found a Ford dealer who would install a third party turbo kit on my mustang, and still honor the drivetrain warranty so long as they do the work and tune it. I'm going to take my car up to have a limited slip rear diff and 4.10 racing gears. They have no problem with CAIs, exhausts, or other bolt-ons. It also helps they sponsor the local mustang club, and their business is no doubt comprised almost entirely of tuners and gearheads. Very smart on their part, since all Ford has these days are Mustangs.
Re:Illegal? (Score:3, Interesting)
Which is exactly what they will ask you here in Europe. I've worked for HP and there is no requirement of an OS if the problem is hardware related. However, for troubleshooting they will ask - if needed - to reload the original OS, because that's the only thing your are trained in. If the unit is to be picked up we recommend the user to back up his/her data, since the repair line may nuke the install and get a fresh image on the box to do some after-repair testing before sending it back. Most of the time the user is asked to do the repair him/herself (within reason) to speed up the repair process and to make it less expensive. Pickup & return is 5 business days, usually you can have the component in the next day or the day after and you can call back for instructions if you're not able to figure out how to disassemble/reassemble the unit to replace the failing part and they'll walk you through it.
I'd like to add that this is the way we handled it at the business helpdesk, I'm not sure the consumer desk acts the same way.